Today's Message Index:
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1. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 12:19 PM - Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic (user9253)
3. 01:16 PM - KAA-445 (tjyak50)
4. 02:23 PM - Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic (messydeer)
5. 02:47 PM - Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic (messydeer)
6. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:17 PM - Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic (user9253)
8. 08:21 PM - Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic (messydeer)
9. 08:39 PM - Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic (messydeer)
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| Subject: | Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic |
At 08:54 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
>
>Corrections and Additions
>
>I corrected the mag wiring. Had 1-3 switches and called them 1-5.
>They're now 2-5 and I hope I have the switch, mag P-lead and shield
>shown correctly.
>
>Had shown the 'push start' which isn't needed, although I called it
>optional here.
>
>Swapped the strobe with the nav/pos light switch positions so the
>strobe can be turned off and the nav/pos left on.
>
>Think those were the main things. Hopefully the fonts come out
>better. Having problem with software :-(
My Adobe Acrobat application said there were errors
in the .pdf file . . . but it seems to open okay.
4AWG fat wires are probably unnecessary on this size
system, 6AWG would do if your battery isn't behind the
seat.
8AWG alternator feeder is unnecessary, 13A alternator
would wire up nicely with 12AWG.
You show a tach signal off the AC widings of the altenrator.
This will not be useful with the alternator disconnect relay
open.
The alternator OFF indicator lamp shown is not applicable
to this architecture.
If you have the recommended low volts warning light, then
the alternator OFF warning lamp is somewhat redundant.
You've already discovered the error in depiction of
ignition/start switches. Recommend you deep-six the
push button and the "secret started disable". In
situations where you're required to present a "dead
airplane" (like on static display at airshows) they'll
want you to disconnect the battery.
15A always hot feeders from batteries are frowned upon
in the TC aircraft world. Suggest you install a battery
bus fuse block, feed each power socket from it's own
5A or 7A fuse on 20AWG wire. The switch is redundant
as simply pulling the plug out a tad disconnects the
accessory.
Don't understand the "stuff" that looks like an ammeter
shunt connection in the (-) lead of the battery. I appears
you may have taken a clue from the 'Connection about battery
(-) current monitoring shunts. That's an aberration that
needs to be removed . . . in fact will be at the next
revision.
25A in-line fuse to main bus is unnecessary but
doesn't hurt . . . only adds complexity and more
potential failure points.
The 5A alternator breaker needs to mount right beside
the DC power master switch. This is why the EXTENED
BUS is protected with a fusible link right at the
fuseblock terminal.
Have you done a load-analysis to show that you have
the snort necessary for night flight?
Starter engaged light wire can be 22AWG.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic |
Dan,
The 15 amp inline fuse connected to the battery is too small or else the 8awg wire
is too big unless you are concerned about voltage drop over a long distance.
I question the purpose of the two wires connected to the ends of the cable that
goes between the negative battery terminal and ground. Are the wires measuring
the voltage drop and thus the current through the battery?
Is the optional "Starter Engaged LED" to warn of a starter contactor that does
not open the circuit after starting?
Isn't the B&C 505-1 an over-voltage module? There is already an OVM connected
to the master switch. A second one is not needed. Also, it appears to be wired
wrong, being essentially in parallel with the alternator relay. If the two
wires from the 505-1 are open, it has no affect on the circuit. If the two wires
are shorted, the alternator relay no longer has control of the alternator.
The 5amp circuit breaker, bottom half of the master switch, and OVM would then
have no control either.
The magneto shield should NOT be connected to the hot terminal of the mag switches.
Something bad will happen.
There are several single-point failure items in series with the electronic ignition,
anyone of which can disable the ignition. The battery contactor, 25amp
inline fuse, 7amp fuse, mic key switch, or any of the associated wire terminals
can open up and cause the engine to quit. I suggest that one of the magnetos
get its power directly from the battery or an essential bus.
The 3amp tach-signal inline fuse should not blow regardless of alternator voltage
provided that the EIS input has a high impedance.
All of the inline fuses should be ATC or ATO type and not glass fuses. See:
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/FHA.pdf
Digikey has a selection of fuse holders rated between 3 and 30 amps:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?pname&site=us;lang=en&wt.mc_id=Dxn_US_T091_Catlink;name=283-2357-ND
Nice drawing. What program did you use?
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259000#259000
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I have a KAA-445 installed in a turboprop.
We were having voice feedback through the overhead speaker while transmitting.
I found a setting on the KAA-445 blackbox with a POT called Speaker Transmit Sidetone.
Seems whenever we transmit, the Audio Panel was giving unwanted sidetone
through the overhead speaker even though we already had it via the intercom.
I turned it to ZERO and things seem much better. Is this just an old feature
from when people used hand mics?
Also... , how do I adjust the sidetone on a KTR-905? Is there a POT in the back?
or inside the box somewhere?
TJ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259008#259008
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| Subject: | Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic |
> 4AWG fat wires are probably unnecessary on this size
> system, 6AWG would do if your battery isn't behind the
> seat.
That would be nice. I'll have to check, but I think I might have been following
the crowd...you know, like how the ants do it? The term "emergence theory" comes
to mind.
> Recommend you deep-six the
> push button and the "secret started disable".
I was just trying to come up with an easy, keyless, dependable, and secure ignition
system. From what you and others are showing me, "keyless" and "secure" may
be the only two of the original four attributes left standing.
> 15A always hot feeders from batteries are frowned upon
I didn't want to go with the weight and expense of a traditional ground power system
confined to the engine compartment. I knew I'd prolly want a couple cigarette
type sockets for small draw electrogizmos, too. Seems like there was a 12A
recharger (Shumacher?) mentioned and the Powerlet sockets and their plugs
are rated 15A. So I put all of that together and came up with my aux power system.
The ONLY time I would ever want 15A would be for a recharge. So maybe instead I
should look at separating things a bit. Seems like I'd heard of putting this
type of socket FWF, accessed through an oil door or something. Then I could downsize
the aux power lines to 20awg, like you suggested.
> Don't understand the "stuff" that looks like an ammeter
> shunt connection in the (-) lead of the battery. I appears
> you may have taken a clue from the 'Connection about battery
> (-) current monitoring shunts.
Bingo! That's where I got it from. I doubt I'd use one anyway, since I could get
the system voltage without one.
> 25A in-line fuse to main bus is unnecessary
I thought it was more or less a rule to place fuses in all wires small enough to
have a fuse and longer than a few inches.
> The 5A alternator breaker needs to mount right beside
> the DC power master switch. This is why the EXTENED
> BUS is protected with a fusible link right at the
> fuseblock terminal.
Are you talking about the main bus to crowbar circuit? Z16 goes main bus-22awg
fuselink-18awg wire-5A fuse-22awg wire-switch-red wire-crowbar-black wire-ground.
In my drawing, I put in 22awg in place of the 18awg. But I don't understand why
both a fuselink AND a fuse are used. Also could use some help with why the wires
change from 22-18-22. I'm guessing the red and black wires come with the OVM,
so I don't need to figure that out.
> Have you done a load-analysis to show that you have
> the snort necessary for night flight?
You mean enough juice for night flight? I'd have 10-12A, as I recall, going with
a 15A Jab alternator. Speaking of which, is there a conversion ratio between
US and AUS, similar to the dollars? They call it a 20A alternator, but I can
only get 13A out of 200W that they site.
But I will prolly never do night flight in this bird, but would like to size the
system as if I were to.
Thanks for all the info, including the few things I didn't ask follow ups on!
--------
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259016#259016
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| Subject: | Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic |
Last post of mine was to reply to Bob, this is to Joe (as if you couldn't have
figured that out by the following):
Hey, Joe!
> The 15 amp inline fuse
Yeah, that was sized only on the 15A sockets and 12A recharger I had planned for
that.
> I question the purpose of the two wires connected to the ends of the cable that
goes between the negative battery terminal and ground. Are the wires measuring
the voltage drop and thus the current through the battery?
That was the idea. See above post. No longer planning on it, regardless of how
it would best be wired. But it would have been for a shunt connected to an MGL
Enigma IOX.
>
> Is the optional "Starter Engaged LED" to warn of a starter contactor that does
not open the circuit after starting?
Yes.
> Isn't the B&C 505-1 an over-voltage module?
It is their OVM kit. the crowbar connected to the master switch is part of that
kit. Only one crowbar.
> Also, it appears to be wired wrong
I had tried to just copy it. I'm running a bit late now, so I'll look at it later,
thanks :-)
> The magneto shield should NOT be connected to the hot terminal of the mag switches
I'll look at that, too. I'd thought I'd figured out how the shields are wired.
It would be nice to get that straight. I don't want bad things to happen :-(
> There are several single-point failure items in series with the electronic ignition,
anyone of which can disable the ignition. The battery contactor, 25amp
inline fuse, 7amp fuse, mic key switch, or any of the associated wire terminals
can open up and cause the engine to quit. I suggest that one of the magnetos
get its power directly from the battery or an essential bus.
I don't have electronic ignition. At least I don't think I do. 'dual transistorized
magnetos' is what I've seen. I thought that everything electrical went TU,
I'd still have spark and with a gravity fed fuel system, I could fly until the
tank emptied.
But...I'm getting the distinct feeling that regardless of the gender of the iginition
system, the design I've put forth is a bit complicated. Or I should just
seek counsel from an electronic attorney?
I've ordered ATO fuses from either Digikey, Waytek, or B&C. Can't remember which,
but they are ATO.
And thanks for the drawing compliment. I've spent hours resurrecting a small fraction
of the small skills I had years ago with Adobe Illustrator. It's version
10, copyright 2002, I think, which was about the last time I used it. Would
have saved me several hours if i had realized it converted the dwg files into
ai vectors. I used the pdf files, which were for some reason all rasterized to
Nova Scotia and back.
--------
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259020#259020
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| Subject: | Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic |
At 04:22 PM 8/21/2009, you wrote:
>
> > Recommend you deep-six the
> > push button and the "secret started disable".
>
>I was just trying to come up with an easy, keyless, dependable, and
>secure ignition system. From what you and others are showing me,
>"keyless" and "secure" may be the only two of the original four
>attributes left standing.
Secure from what? Airplane theft and even accidents
due to inadvertent starter engagement is very rare.
You already have a very non-traditional starter-engage
protocol that requires two switches to be raised from
the mid-ON position. Just don't label the upper excursions
START . . . that can be YOUR secret. The casual thief
or dingy-brained switch-flipper isn't going to figure
it out.
> > 15A always hot feeders from batteries are frowned upon
>
>I didn't want to go with the weight and expense of a traditional
>ground power system confined to the engine compartment. I knew I'd
>probably want a couple cigarette type sockets for small draw
>electrogizmos, too. Seems like there was a 12A recharger
>(Shumacher?) mentioned and the Powerlet sockets and their plugs are
>rated 15A. So I put all of that together and came up with my aux power system.
>
>The ONLY time I would ever want 15A would be for a recharge. So
>maybe instead I should look at separating things a bit. Seems like
>I'd heard of putting this type of socket FWF, accessed through an
>oil door or something. Then I could downsize the aux power lines to
>20awg, like you suggested.
Get a Schumacher 1562 series charger/maintainer. 2A
output. WELL within the limits of your 5 or 7 amp
battery bus feeders to a cigar lighter socket.
> > Don't understand the "stuff" that looks like an ammeter
> > shunt connection in the (-) lead of the battery. I appears
> > you may have taken a clue from the 'Connection about battery
> > (-) current monitoring shunts.
>
>Bingo! That's where I got it from. I doubt I'd use one anyway, since
>I could get the system voltage without one.
Okay, if you HAVE an ammeter input to your engine
instrumentation system, recommend you use it to monitor
alternator LOAD. You only have 13.5A to play with
and things add up quickly. Particular attention needs
to be paid to the interval right after takeoff when the
alternator is huffing to get the battery recharged . . .
you need ALL the excess capacity you can put your hands
on and knowing when it's all used up is a very useful
bit of flight management knowledge.
> > 25A in-line fuse to main bus is unnecessary
>
>I thought it was more or less a rule to place fuses in all wires
>small enough to have a fuse and longer than a few inches.
Not for power distribution feeders of
fat wires.
> > The 5A alternator breaker needs to mount right beside
> > the DC power master switch. This is why the EXTENED
> > BUS is protected with a fusible link right at the
> > fuseblock terminal.
>
>Are you talking about the main bus to crowbar circuit? Z16 goes main
>bus-22awg fuselink-18awg wire-5A fuse-22awg wire-switch-red
>wire-crowbar-black wire-ground.
Yes . . . 5A breaker is a circuit protection
remotely mounted from the main bus which is self
contained within the fuseblock. Hence, the feeder
that extends your bus to the 5A breaker next to the
DC PWR MASTER switch needs ROBUST protection like
a fusible link or MANL current limiter.
>In my drawing, I put in 22awg in place of the 18awg. But I don't
>understand why both a fuselink AND a fuse are used. Also could use
>some help with why the wires change from 22-18-22. I'm guessing the
>red and black wires come with the OVM, so I don't need to figure that out.
Yes, see:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Products/9003_B&C/OVM-14_C.jpg
depending on the revision level, the RED wire may
be some other color but black is always ground
and the other color is (+).
Where did you see a fusible link and a fuse? I show
a fusible link and a BREAKER. The upstream fusible
link needs to be 10x more robust than the breaker
so that a nuisance trip opens the breaker (which
you can reach) and not the fusible link (which
you cannot reach . . . and couldn't do anything
about it if you could).
> > Have you done a load-analysis to show that you have
> > the snort necessary for night flight?
>
>
>You mean enough juice for night flight? I'd have 10-12A, as I
>recall, going with a 15A Jab alternator. Speaking of which, is there
>a conversion ratio between US and AUS, similar to the dollars? They
>call it a 20A alternator, but I can only get 13A out of 200W that they cite.
>
>But I will prolly never do night flight in this bird, but would like
>to size the system as if I were to.
>
>Thanks for all the info, including the few things I didn't ask follow ups on!
Okay, traditional nav lights are the biggest ENERGY hoggs
on an airplane (6+ amps for duration of flight). If you're
planning on LED nav lights, it's another matter. But in
any case, make yourself a chart of loads (and proof it during
your flight testing) to establish a protocol of what electro-
whizzies can be turned on and still leave something extra
for recharging a battery.
On same topic, Joe offers:
>There are several single-point failure items in series with the
>electronic ignition, anyone of which can disable the ignition. The
>battery contactor, 25amp inline fuse, 7amp fuse, mic key switch, or
>any of the associated wire terminals can open up and cause the
>engine to quit. I suggest that one of the magnetos get its power
>directly from the battery or an essential bus.
I believe the ignition systems on this engine are similar
to those found on Rotax and even some lawn mowers. They
are self-powered by means of magnets on the flywheel but
utilize some electronics for control and timing features.
They do not get power from the ship's electrical system
and are treated much the same as a traditional magneto:
Switch closed - engine doesn't run. Switch open - engine runs.
>The 3amp tach-signal inline fuse should not blow regardless of
>alternator voltage provided that the EIS input has a high impedance.
I doubt that his engine instrumentation (unless specifically
designed for this engine) uses the alternator waveform frequency
to deduce engine RPM. But if it does, you need to treat the
AC signal to the tach as if it were attached to a significant
energy source . . . that can burn wires. Any fuse in the 1 to 3
amp range would be fine. Some tachs might work fine with a 1000
ohm, 2W resistor in series with the tach signal lead. This too
would current limit the fault on the tach signal wire.
The magneto shield should NOT be connected to the hot terminal of the
mag switches. Something bad will happen.
It's a common convention to use the p-lead shield (grounded
at the engine end) to provide a magneto-killing ground at
the panel end when the magneto is switched off. Further,
the p-lead shields should get to ground ONLY at the engine
end to avoid crafting a ground-loop . . .
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic |
Dan,
The reason that I assumed (incorrectly) that you have electronic ignition is because
the schematic shows a 7amp fuse supplying power to the mag switches. You
need to replace the mag switches with double pole switches, one pole for the
start circuit and one pole for grounding out the magneto. Move the hot wire
to the second pole (for the start circuit) and then nothing bad will happen.
Another option that would simplify things is to separate the start circuit from
the magneto switches like Z-20. You could go directly from the 7amp fuse
to the start push button without any other switches. Or you can keep the key
switch in the circuit, either your mic plug or a real key switch or even a hidden
switch. The Department of Homeland Security is concerned about a stolen Sonex
being flown into a skyscraper. :D One advantage to keeping the mags and
starter separate is that you can crank the engine with the mags off if desired
for testing or maintenance.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259037#259037
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| Subject: | Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic |
> Okay, if you HAVE an ammeter input to your engine
> instrumentation system, recommend you use it to monitor
> alternator LOAD.
I'm planning on getting an Enigma. As I understand it, the stand alone instrument
will give the system voltage without an additional shunt. So I assume voltage
would be measured on either side of it's own load, or somehow reference the
measurement to ground. Not clear on that.
If I want to measure current elsewhere, I need to get a separate shunt, or as they
suggest, use the part of the system itself as a shunt. With any luck, I'll
upload a their diagram of this.
So now I can monitor current wherever I place this shunt. Well, not quite. I have
to buy their Input Output eXtender (IOX), a decent sized piece of hardware
that the shunt wires plug into. There are several other fancy things that can
be done with this IOX, but for me, there wouldn't be much else to use it for.
> The upstream fusible
> link needs to be 10x more robust than the breaker
> so that a nuisance trip opens the breaker
Oh! I'd thought the fuselink was LESS robust than the breaker. Makes sense now
:-)
And I meant earlier to say breaker but put fuse instead. Fuselink and breaker,
fuselink and breaker. Okay, think I got it.
> It's a common convention to use the p-lead shield (grounded
> at the engine end) to provide a magneto-killing ground at
> the panel end when the magneto is switched off. Further,
> the p-lead shields should get to ground ONLY at the engine
> end to avoid crafting a ground-loop . . .
Is this what you see in my diagrams? I took the Z diagram and extended both the
p_lead and the shield to show them hooked up at both ends. In the second diagram,
I added the ground triangle to show that the dots connected to the little
hoops went to ground.
I've learned alot, Bob, thanks. Lots more to go!
--------
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259051#259051
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/enigma_shunt_wiring_to_iox_840.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Dan's Jabiru 3300 Wiring Schematic |
Joe:
> You need to replace the mag switches with double pole switches, one pole for
the start circuit and one pole for grounding out the magneto.
Isn't that what I show in the 2nd diagram, i.e. my diagram from my second post
in this thread?
> One advantage to keeping the mags and starter separate is that you can crank
the engine with the mags off if desired for testing or maintenance
Actually, I've been trying to come up with a way to use two switches that would
allow just this. It is an adaptation of what Bob described in Note 2 of the Z
chapter. It was pointed out to me that my adaptation doesn't allow for dual mags
at starting. I didn't think that was an issue, but maybe it is?
--------
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259053#259053
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/note_2_starter_mods_3_198.pdf
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