---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/31/09: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:53 AM - Re: Re: Transponder Re-Check? () 2. 05:12 AM - Re: Sensor wires with ignition leads (nuckollsr) 3. 05:19 AM - Re: Re: CHT probes (Harley) 4. 08:42 AM - D10-A can't see compass module (thomas sargent) 5. 08:56 AM - Re: D10-A can't see compass module (Sam Hoskins) 6. 09:07 AM - Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (dalemed) 7. 09:53 AM - Protecting the compass from interference () 8. 10:24 AM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Sam Hoskins) 9. 12:06 PM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (nuckollsr) 10. 12:17 PM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference () 11. 12:19 PM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Kevin Horton) 12. 01:55 PM - Re: D10-A can't see compass module (Rodney Dunham) 13. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Doug Ilg) 14. 02:50 PM - Re: D10-A can't see compass module (thomas sargent) 15. 03:48 PM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Ivan Carlson) 16. 05:48 PM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (dalemed) 17. 05:48 PM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (dalemed) 18. 06:06 PM - Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? (dave.gribble@mchsi.com) 19. 07:25 PM - Re: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 07:43 PM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:10 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder Re-Check? Sounds to me like you have already made your mind up to have the recheck done. Personnally I would see if the original people who did the check just before the failure will recheck it again for free since they probably want to have good customer feedback. They should be concerned about what kind of reputation they will get. You should at least ask them about it. Rodney Hall ---- Don Curry wrote: > > I'm fighting that very temptation. However, all too often if a person will compromise once, s/he'll do it again. And I don't want to be that person. As near as I can tell, it's best just to play by the rules. After all, it's a hobby, right? Don > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: alfranken@msn.com > > Sent: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 17:31:05 -0700 > > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder Re-Check? > > > > > > Here's a realistic idea. > > > > When your transponder comes back, put it in and forget about the > > paperwork. > > > > Al > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260540#260540 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensor wires with ignition leads From: "nuckollsr" Bundling the wires of different and potentially antagonistic systems is quite practical and in fact a foregone conclusion in the TC aircraft world. There's a suite of tests conducted for all electro-whizzies that quantifies potential victimization/antagonism factors when installed per the manufacturer's instructions. While building wire bundles for biz jets consisting of a hundred miles of wire and very limited options for wire routing, the LAST challenge anyone wants to address is a requirement for keeping the wires of one system separated from the wires of another system. The general rule is that unless the manufacturer demands that such separations be established, don't worry about it. It they DO make such demands, you may wish to consider an alternative system. Separation requirements arise from lack of due diligence in crafting an installer and user friendly system. Lack of diligence in issues of environmental co-existence aboard airplanes should make one wonder if other qualities you seek are likewise lacking. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260592#260592 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:32 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: CHT probes Doug Baleshta wrote: > > I don't think I've seen this anywhere on the list, but is there a difference between a type K thermocouple ring style (sits under the sparkplug between the sparkplug and the head) vs the straight style that screws into the head? And, I believe Bob (or someone) mentioned that standard aircraft wire can connect to the thermocouple wires if they are not long enough, provided the lengths are identical, is that correct? > > thanks > Doug Morning, Doug... I'll let someone else answer the difference between mounting a TC under the plug and in the head...obviously, the temperatures will read differently, but as far as I know, once you get used to what your readings are, either method is acceptable. As for connecting thermocouples, for the most accurate reading, the wires AND connectors along the entire length, right up to and including the instrument reading the signal itself, should all be of the same two dissimilar materials. This includes any terminal or plug connections as well. These are available at any supply house that deals in thermocouples and are not expensive. Omega Engineering is a great source of information and components and is online. It was one source of TC and RTD supplies in my other life when I was involved in automating a pharmaceutical company's manufacturing. A TC is simply two wires of dissimilar material connected at one end. The different types of TC (J,K,T, etc.) have different sets of materials in them for different ranges of temperature. Thermocouples don't work by having a voltage or signal supplied to them, but are generators of a very small voltage themselves, which changes slightly as the temperature changes. Monitoring this voltage change is what the readout instrument does, then massages the reading and converts it to numbers that relate to a temperature scale that you have selected. Connecting ANY two dissimilar metals, not just the ones used in TCs, will produce voltages. So, connecting the specific wire in a thermocouple (iron, constantin, etc.) to another type of wire or connector (copper, steel, brass, aluminum, etc.)along the route to the instrument will (not "might") generate additional voltages that may add to or degrade the signal you are trying to read. For accurate readings, all the wire and connectors should be the same material as used in the TC itself. So, since the two wires in a TC are DIFFERENT materials, even when using TC extension wire or thermocouple couplers or plugs, be sure to connect the wires to the terminal or extension wire that is the same material (they are color coded) or you could seriously degrade or even cancel your signal. Remember, even solder (which is lead or tin) will generate it's own voltages in contract with the TC wire, and will degrade the signal between the two wires, so use compatible mechanical connections wherever possible. Many TC materials don't solder well anyway. For a clearer description, read this: www.omega.com/thermocouples.html and this: www.omega.com/techref/themointro.html Harley Dixon ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: D10-A can't see compass module From: thomas sargent I have hooked up my remote compass module to my D10-A for the first time and the D10-A complains it can't find the compass module. I ohmed out the cable and it seems to be correct. Has any one had this problem? The thing has sat on the shelf for 2 or 3 years so the internal battery is completely dead, if that makes any difference. -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A final assembly ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D10-A can't see compass module From: Sam Hoskins Tom - you might want to post this message on the Dynon company's direct support forum. http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Sam On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 10:32 AM, thomas sargent wrote: > I have hooked up my remote compass module to my D10-A for the first time > and the D10-A complains it can't find the compass module. I ohmed out the > cable and it seems to be correct. Has any one had this problem? The thing > has sat on the shelf for 2 or 3 years so the internal battery is completely > dead, if that makes any difference. > > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A final assembly > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:00 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe From: "dalemed" I'm getting ready to install an Aveo wingtip LED stobe on my all-aluminum wing. I ran some bench tests and found quite a bit of switching noise on the stobe wire. I'm assuming I should use shielded wire for this line and I'm assuming I should ground the shield on only one end. Which end of the shield should I ground or does it matter? I'm new to this list so I apologize if this question has been asked and answered a lot of times. I did a search of the list but nothing jumped out at me. Thanks! -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith CH650 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260638#260638 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:13 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference From: Is there anything I use as a shield to protect my compass (panel mounted) from interference with surrounding neighbors? I was thinking about dipping it in lead. Perhaps I could wrap it in tin foil? Thanks, Glenn ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference From: Sam Hoskins So, you want to prevent the compass from receiving magnetic influences? If you do that, it may not work so well. You are going to have to eliminate the outside influences or move the compass. You might possibly gain something by wrapping the sources with a ferrous material, but that sounds like a loser too. Sam On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:46 AM, wrote: > > Is there anything I use as a shield to protect my compass (panel > mounted) from interference with surrounding neighbors? I was thinking > about dipping it in lead. Perhaps I could wrap it in tin foil? > > Thanks, > Glenn > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:59 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe From: "nuckollsr" Shielding has a VERY limited, VERY specific effect on the propagation of noise from one wire to another. How did you 'measure' switching noise? Just holding your hand-held transceiver close to the product or its leadwires is not a very telling experiment. Your handheld can and will detect close proximity noises that have little or nothing to do with operational aspects of making your 'noisy' device co-exist with potential 'victims' of that noise. What does the manufacturer say about noise issues? Email them and ASK if they're aware of any customers that have encountered noise issues and what they did about them. It's a 99% bet that an inline filter would be necessary to take care of noise that is CONDUCTED on the power wires. These are not the kinds of noises that will couple from one wire to the next because there is no shielding. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260660#260660 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:52 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference From: Correct, thanks Sam. Looks like there may be a move scheduled for the compass. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference So, you want to prevent the compass from receiving magnetic influences? If you do that, it may not work so well. You are going to have to eliminate the outside influences or move the compass. You might possibly gain something by wrapping the sources with a ferrous material, but that sounds like a loser too. Sam On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:46 AM, wrote: Is there anything I use as a shield to protect my compass (panel mounted) from interference with surrounding neighbors? I was thinking about dipping it in lead. Perhaps I could wrap it in tin foil? Thanks, Glenn -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:10 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference Supposedly, some magnetic interference issues can be solved by wrapping the source of the interfering magnetism in mu-metal, a nickel- iron alloy with very high magnetic permeability. Kevin Horton On 31-Aug-09, at 13:18 , Sam Hoskins wrote: > So, you want to prevent the compass from receiving magnetic > influences? If you do that, it may not work so well. > > You are going to have to eliminate the outside influences or move > the compass. You might possibly gain something by wrapping the > sources with a ferrous material, but that sounds like a loser too. > > Sam > > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:46 AM, wrote: > > Is there anything I use as a shield to protect my compass (panel > mounted) from interference with surrounding neighbors? I was thinking > about dipping it in lead. Perhaps I could wrap it in tin foil? > > Thanks, > Glenn > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:30 PM PST US From: Rodney Dunham Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: D10-A can't see compass module Tom=2C I had the same problem with my D10A. It was a bad OAT probe. Check the resistance across the 3 wires. You do have the one with 3 wires =2C don't you? You can call Dynon for the actual numbers=2C I've slept since then. Before you call them=2C update the firmware to the latest edition on all yo ur Dynon products and attempt to reinstall. Rodney in Tennessee DO NOT ARCHIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D10-A can't see compass module From: sam.hoskins@gmail.com Tom - you might want to post this message on the Dynon company's direct sup port forum. http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Sam On Mon=2C Aug 31=2C 2009 at 10:32 AM=2C thomas sargent wrote: I have hooked up my remote compass module to my D10-A for the first time an d the D10-A complains it can't find the compass module. I ohmed out the ca ble and it seems to be correct. Has any one had this problem? The thing h as sat on the shelf for 2 or 3 years so the internal battery is completely dead=2C if that makes any difference. -- Tom Sargent=2C RV-6A final assembly ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you=92re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL :ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:24 PM PST US From: Doug Ilg Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe I also have a set of these lights. Iam not to the point of installing and I have not conducted any experiments, but the manufacturer says that no shielding is needed. It's one of their selling points. All the flashy bits for the LEDs are inside the idividual light heads, so all you need to supply is 7-32 VDC. I guess that doesn't guarantee that no noise can leak out onto the powerleads, but they claim it's a"noise free" installation. FWIW Doug Ilg Grumman Tiger N74818, College ParkAirport (KCGS), Maryland Challenger II LSS (N641LGreserved)- kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D10-A can't see compass module From: thomas sargent Rodney: I didn't order the OAT option. I have a separate OAT gauge. On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Rodney Dunham wrote: > Tom, > > I had the same problem with my D10A. It was a bad OAT probe. > > Check the resistance across the 3 wires. You do have the one with 3 wires, > don't you? > > You can call Dynon for the actual numbers, I've slept since then. > > Before you call them, update the firmware to the latest edition on all your > Dynon products and attempt to reinstall. > > Rodney in Tennessee > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ------------------------------ > > -- Tom Sargent ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:01 PM PST US From: "Ivan Carlson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference There is something called mu metal available a Aircraft Spruce. I know of some who used it that had a similar problem and it worked. No guarantees. Ivan Carlson From: longg@pjm.com Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference Correct, thanks Sam. Looks like there may be a move scheduled for the compass. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference So, you want to prevent the compass from receiving magnetic influences? If you do that, it may not work so well. You are going to have to eliminate the outside influences or move the compass. You might possibly gain something by wrapping the sources with a ferrous material, but that sounds like a loser too. Sam On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 11:46 AM, wrote: Is there anything I use as a shield to protect my compass (panel mounted) from interference with surrounding neighbors? I was thinking about dipping it in lead. Perhaps I could wrap it in tin foil? Thanks, Glenn -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhttp://forums.matroni cs.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:51 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe From: "dalemed" I ran about 15 feet of wire from a battery to the strobe. When an AM weather Band radio was anywhere within 10 feet of the circuit, there was considerable noise in the radio. I didn't get any information with my lights. Any info I got was from their website. Where did you read that they are "noise free"? The spikes I see on the power lines using an oscilloscope would indicate otherwise. In any event, I don't see where the use of shielded wire would hurt. I'd like to know the best way/place to ground the shield. Thanks for your feedback! -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith CH650 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260732#260732 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:52 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe From: "dalemed" I ran about 15 feet of wire from a battery to the strobe. When an AM weather Band radio was anywhere within 10 feet of the circuit, there was considerable noise in the radio. I didn't get any information with my lights. Any info I got was from their website. Where did you read that they are "noise free"? The spikes I see on the power lines using an oscilloscope would indicate otherwise. In any event, I don't see where the use of shielded wire would hurt. I'd like to know the best way/place to ground the shield. Thanks for your feedback! -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith CH650 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260733#260733 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:53 PM PST US From: dave.gribble@mchsi.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? I'm building a firewall ground terminal system consisting of faston tabs soldered to sheets of brass stock. I'll sandwich these around the RV firewall (thin stainless steel) and use a big bolt on one side to attach the battery and engine ground straps to. I see that the B&C version of this calls for a brass bolt - what is the reason for this, and also what size of bolt to use? I assume it is a dissimilar metals corrosion problem... I have designed for a few smaller #8 bolts to hold the brass sheets together.. do these have to be brass too? Thanks for any info, Dave Gribble Cedar Rapids IA ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? At 08:00 PM 8/31/2009, you wrote: > >I'm building a firewall ground terminal system consisting of faston >tabs soldered to sheets of brass stock. I'll sandwich these around >the RV firewall (thin stainless steel) and use a big bolt on one >side to attach the battery and engine ground straps to. > >I see that the B&C version of this calls for a brass bolt - what is >the reason for this, and also what size of bolt to use? I assume it >is a dissimilar metals corrosion problem... I have designed for a >few smaller #8 bolts to hold the brass sheets together.. do these >have to be brass too? If the Big bolt is long (like through a composite firewall) the brass bolt is preferred for electrical conductivity. But for a thin firewall, regular AN hardware is fine. The #8 hardware is mechanical only, plain vanilla AN hardware there too. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe At 07:48 PM 8/31/2009, you wrote: > >I ran about 15 feet of wire from a battery to the strobe. When an >AM weather Band radio was anywhere within 10 feet of the circuit, >there was considerable noise in the radio. > >I didn't get any information with my lights. Any info I got was >from their website. Where did you read that they are "noise >free"? The spikes I see on the power lines using an oscilloscope >would indicate otherwise. > >In any event, I don't see where the use of shielded wire would >hurt. I'd like to know the best way/place to ground the shield. Shielded wire may not hurt . . . but it most certainly won't help. Shielding is NOT a radio frequency interference fix. If there is CONDUCTED noise on your strobe supply leads then adding a shielded wire only insures that any noise present is carried with better efficiency to the bus an on to the rest of the airplane. Conducted noise must be filtered at the antagonist. This and similar products are called for if the devices prove to be troublesome. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9006/9006-700A.pdf Here's a noisy LED driver that has been upgraded with an appropriate RF noise filter. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9051/9051-700A.pdf Shielding is more weight, more installed complexity and essentially ineffectual on anything except electro- statically coupled noises in wire bundles. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference At 11:46 AM 8/31/2009, you wrote: > >Is there anything I use as a shield to protect my compass (panel >mounted) from interference with surrounding neighbors? I was thinking >about dipping it in lead. Perhaps I could wrap it in tin foil? > >Thanks, >Glenn The magnetic compass is intended to deduce alignment of the earth's magnetic field (on the order of 500 milliGauss) and produce a useful navigation display based thereon. Your query doesn't give us a good sense of any problems you may be having. ALL compasses installed on ALL vehicles are subject to external influences that tend to distort the field of interest. This is why the compass is "swung" or calibrated at the compass rose after installation. Further, swinging the compass is done with a known condition for certain electrical system components being ON or OFF. There is no value in attempting to isolate surrounding effects with special shielding. If there is some accessory that causes a major swing in compass reading, then you increase the separation between compass and antagonist. The last compass issue I worked was on the Bonanza after the B&C standby alternator was installed. Magnetic leakage from the alternator on the back of the engine produced an unacceptable deviation to the compass reading when mounted on the glare shield. Moving the compass to a previously qualified location higher on the windshield fixed the problem. The BEST compasses are remotely sensed with the transducer in the tailcone or out on wing. But your panel mounted GPS should be backed up with a hand held GPS . . . the compass has become a historical curiosity of limited usefulness. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.