---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/02/09: 56 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:22 AM - Shielded wire for wingtip strobe () 2. 05:32 AM - Re: Fried Master switch wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 05:35 AM - Re: wiring diagram (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 05:41 AM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: Sensor wires with ignition leads (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:01 AM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:44 AM - Re: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? (Eric M. Jones) 8. 06:48 AM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Bob Collins) 9. 06:48 AM - King K76 pinout (Jay Hyde) 10. 06:48 AM - Alternator connections (Jay Hyde) 11. 06:49 AM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Bob Collins) 12. 06:54 AM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Johnson, Phillip (EXP)) 13. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Chris Stone) 14. 07:44 AM - Re: King K76 pinout (b e) 15. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Matt Prather) 16. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 07:54 AM - Re: King K76 pinout (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 08:14 AM - Re: Alternator connections (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 08:16 AM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference () 20. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Bob Collins) 21. 08:45 AM - Compass interference protection (CardinalNSB@aol.com) 22. 08:47 AM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Bruce Gray) 23. 08:50 AM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 09:05 AM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 09:11 AM - rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Bill Bradburry) 26. 09:12 AM - New Z-figure (Corvair) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 27. 09:28 AM - New Z-figure (Corvair) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 28. 09:43 AM - Re: Protecting the compass from interference (Bob Leffler) 29. 09:54 AM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (SteinAir, Inc.) 30. 10:11 AM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Matt Prather) 31. 10:11 AM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Matt Prather) 32. 10:20 AM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 33. 11:21 AM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (Roger) 34. 12:12 PM - How to convert Z12 to Z14 (DCS317@aol.com) 35. 12:12 PM - Re: ELT panel remote test (David LLoyd) 36. 12:23 PM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (David M) 37. 12:30 PM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (David M) 38. 12:39 PM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 39. 12:48 PM - Re: How to convert Z12 to Z14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 40. 01:05 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 41. 02:58 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (ray) 42. 03:51 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (Franz Fux) 43. 03:57 PM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Kevin Horton) 44. 05:10 PM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Kelly McMullen) 45. 05:15 PM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Matt Prather) 46. 05:24 PM - Alternator choices (Colm O'Reilly) 47. 05:28 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 48. 05:43 PM - Changing Z12 to the Z14 electrical system (DCS317@aol.com) 49. 06:35 PM - Re: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane (Charlie England) 50. 06:35 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (ray) 51. 07:36 PM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe () 52. 07:45 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (Neal George) 53. 07:53 PM - Another power distribution scheme (Joel Jacobs) 54. 08:08 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (Ernest Christley) 55. 08:14 PM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 56. 09:57 PM - What single failure of installed equipment prompts me to change to Z14... (DCS317@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:49 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe 9/2/2009 Hello Bob, You wrote: "What should I do with the shield wire at that location?" Below is a copy of my 2/16/2005 posting from the archives addressing this question. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ============================================= 2/16/2005 Hello Jay, Here is how I solved that problem. 1) I bought some additional connectors and pins of the type that plugs into the Whelen power supply. They are available from Terminal Town and other sources. 2) I ran a cut end of the Whelen provided cables in a continuous snake from each wing tip light all the way to my single power supply in the fuselage leaving a coil of excess cable in the fuselage near each wing root. 3) Then I installed the connectors on the cable cut end and plugged into the power supply. 4) If I ever have to remove my one piece wing I will just unplug the two cable connectors from the power supply, cut the connectors off the cable ends, and pull the cables out of the fuselage.## 5) When I reinstall the wing I just go through the same process as when originally installing the wing by snaking the cable ends dangling from the wing root into the power supply, reinstalling the connectors, and plugging back into the power supply. Considering how seldom one pulls the wings off and how little effort and cost is involved in cutting off and reinstalling the cable end connectors this is the best solution for me. It also eliminates an additional cable connection junction at the wing root. OC ##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors for wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall. End Msg: #136 ============================================================ Time: 05:52:52 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe Somewhat related question. I have the Whelen Comet system for my RV-7A, It has shielded cable, of course, the power unit out to the wingtip strobe, with the shield grounded at the power unit. But, because there's a chance I won't be able to fly my project off the field where it's now being built, I may hve to take the wings off and truck it to anothre airport, so I want to use a terminal strip at the inboard wing root, so that the wires can be disconnected. What should I do with the shield wire at that location. Should I treat it like any other wire and connect it at the terminal strip and continue it out to the wing tip? Or should I just terminate it at the wing root? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fried Master switch wires At 03:26 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote: Here is a real puzzle. I used Bob's Z-11 wiring plan to structure my wiring system in my RV. All was well (3 years) until I inadvertently jumped a dead battery and reversed polarity. The master switch wire that runs from the switch to the master relay, that powers up the starter relay burned (smoked actually). Nothing else burned, just ancillary damage to wire insulation from the melted insulation on the master to ground and master to relay and 7 burned fuses. There was a diode on both relays. The yellow diode on the MR showed discoloration (a small brown spot) but appeared intact. I replaced all the master wiring and the Odyssey battery and tried to lite it. Again it smoked the master wires to the MR and to ground. "Appearing intact" doesn't mean it was not damaged. In fact, the reversed polarity on this device caused the coil of your contactor to appear shorted which is why the control wire burned. The same current fused the diode's junction causing it to become shorted which caused your contactor to appear shorted after the wire was replaced. Then I replaced the MR, the Starter Relay, both diodes AND the master switch along with the burned up wire. Seems fine now and I flew it home. The problem is this. Except for the Yellow MR diode frying during the second attempt, nothing in that circuit appears damaged. We cut open the MR and it is as new inside. Same with the Master Switch....contact are normal appearing. So what happened the second time??? Why does everything appear OK on inspection? The contactor itself would not have been damaged. It's not a polarity sensitive device. Replacing the diodes and damaged wire was all that was necessary. One side note....except for a loss of a battery, one microphone jack and the Alternator now putting out only 13.9 volts, the rest of the avionics and electrical system appear unharmed. Burned out 7 fuses on the first incident, but no apparent damage to the expensive equipment. That alone makes fuses superior to circuit breakers in my mind. I DO favor them for their much faster response to an overload condition. The first condition (initial application of reverse polarity) was the only one that put your system at risk. The second event was because the diode was also shorted causing a large fault current to flow in the replacement wire. The contactors would have been okay to leave in. I appreciate any electrical Guru's thoughts on this event and what I might still need to do to insure safety in flight. Not knowing what caused the second event makes me a bit nervous that It might still be lurking. Smoke in the cockpit is not good! You're experience is not uncommon. I reversed a set of jumper cables on a couple of cars last winter when I was working in the dark and it was snowing on me! In most automotive applications, the diode array in the alternators is what keeps the system from going negative by more than a couple of volts. This may have figured strongly in your experience too. This is another example of how adding a ground power jack (with ov and reverse polarity protection) would have proved useful. I'm pleased that the outcome of your experience was so benign . . . it could have been much worse. I'm mystified about the microphone jack. What kind of voltage regulator does your airplane have? If it's a built in regulator and it shifted in regulation set point as a consequence of this event, then it HAS been affected and is now suspect. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wiring diagram At 08:00 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote: >Bob >Is there a link to your wiring diagrams? Particularly the 2 alts 2 >battery all electric airplane. I can't locate mine. I probably put >it where I would be sure to find it HA HA ;-) > >James Robinson Good morning Jim. Haven't talked with you in quite some time. All of my drawings are on the website. The whole package is at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ . . . the drawing you're asking about is probably this one . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N2.pdf Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe At 06:20 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > >9/2/2009 > >Hello Bob, You wrote: "What should I do with the shield wire at that >location?" > >Below is a copy of my 2/16/2005 posting from the archives addressing >this question. I think we're talking two different systems here. The classic strobe systems are xenon flash tubes supplied with high voltage (300v) to light up and triggered by still higher voltage (10Kv) to flash. These systems come with shielded wire in the installation kit. The strobe that is the subject of this tread is an LED device. We're not talking about the wires between a hv power supply and strobe heads but the 14v ship's power wire to the device. Unless the manufacture calls out shielded wire (and this should NEVER happen on a 14v supply wire) then potential victim/antagonist pairs have been identified and shielding is not useful. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:09 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Sensor wires with ignition leads At 07:18 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote: >Bob, I'm building an RV7A (not much guidance from the "manufacturer" >on this issue). Am I to conclude from your comments below that I >might be better off separating the EGT and CHT sensor wires from the >ignition leads. > >If the sensor wires are run with the ignition leads what possible >adversities might I be facing. Might I get radio noise. Might I get >erroneous instrument readings from the EGT and CHT guages. No . . . CHT/EGT sensors are thermocouples which are exceedingly low impedance systems and are not potential victims to the noises which do exist within and around spark plug wires. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference At 03:13 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote: Hi guys, The compass does seem an excess item until you've left the GPS home or the replacement batteries don't seem to be working. I've been only 30-miles out when the snow and visibility had me "temporarily" dependent on the GPS and it quit. I knew the last GPS heading and followed it back via that "worthless compass" until the white on white of the airport was back in view. I'd give the Compass more respect, as it's probably the only thing that works when all else has dumped out on you. I'm constantly comparing my compass heading with what's on the GPS. Don't think anyone is 'dissing' the compass . . . only suggesting that there are alternatives for navigation that are equally if not more useful. But like preventative maintenance on your ship's battery, the batteries in your "plan-b" back-ups are worthy of still more attention. This was the thrust of my article some years ago that explored the value of el-cheapo alkaline cells. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/AA_Bat_Test.pdf The outcome of that study suggested that my plan-b devices could get a brand new set of cells before leaving home base of every trip. The cost of such cells was insignificant compared to other costs for making the trip. But the availability of those plan-b devices was never in doubt. This is why to this day I prefer the lowly alkaline to any form of rechargeable battery whether replaceable or built in. This goes beyond a bureaucratic/regulatory mandate to have any particular piece of equipment aboard. According to a particularly lucid B/R type who attended one of my seminars a few years ago, an electronic compass with failure resistant power paths (like an e-bus or second battery) was an acceptable substitute for the liquid compass. In fact preferable if the sensor was out in the wing. These things provided much more stable and useable data for navigation. But HE too carried a stand-alone, hand-held GPS in his flight bag and never expected to be dependant upon the liquid compass in his airplane either. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:26 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? From: "Eric M. Jones" Since you want ground termination on both sides of the firewall, you can do approximately the following: Take a 2X long copper strap, fold it in the middle and insert it through a slot in the firewall (or around the edge). Then drill a battery ground bolt hole through both layers and the firewall too. The bolt hole is better if it is closer to the fold, but this is a fine detail. Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=260996#260996 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:29 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe Appreciate that but the question isn't whether I should or shouldn't have connectors. The question is only on the fate of the shielded cable at the connector. -----Original Message----- From: bakerocb@cox.net [mailto:bakerocb@cox.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:21 AM Subject: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe 9/2/2009 Hello Bob, You wrote: "What should I do with the shield wire at that location?" Below is a copy of my 2/16/2005 posting from the archives addressing this question. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ============================================= 2/16/2005 Hello Jay, Here is how I solved that problem. 1) I bought some additional connectors and pins of the type that plugs into the Whelen power supply. They are available from Terminal Town and other sources. 2) I ran a cut end of the Whelen provided cables in a continuous snake from each wing tip light all the way to my single power supply in the fuselage leaving a coil of excess cable in the fuselage near each wing root. 3) Then I installed the connectors on the cable cut end and plugged into the power supply. 4) If I ever have to remove my one piece wing I will just unplug the two cable connectors from the power supply, cut the connectors off the cable ends, and pull the cables out of the fuselage.## 5) When I reinstall the wing I just go through the same process as when originally installing the wing by snaking the cable ends dangling from the wing root into the power supply, reinstalling the connectors, and plugging back into the power supply. Considering how seldom one pulls the wings off and how little effort and cost is involved in cutting off and reinstalling the cable end connectors this is the best solution for me. It also eliminates an additional cable connection junction at the wing root. OC ##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors for wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall. End Msg: #136 ============================================================ Time: 05:52:52 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe Somewhat related question. I have the Whelen Comet system for my RV-7A, It has shielded cable, of course, the power unit out to the wingtip strobe, with the shield grounded at the power unit. But, because there's a chance I won't be able to fly my project off the field where it's now being built, I may hve to take the wings off and truck it to anothre airport, so I want to use a terminal strip at the inboard wing root, so that the wires can be disconnected. What should I do with the shield wire at that location. Should I treat it like any other wire and connect it at the terminal strip and continue it out to the wing tip? Or should I just terminate it at the wing root? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:37 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: AeroElectric-List: King K76 pinout Does anyone have the pinout/ connection diagram for a King K76 transponder? Thanks! Jay ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:46 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator connections Hi there, I am trying to connect a Nippon Denso alternator into a Z scheme and am confused as to the connections. There are 4 small pins in a plastic housing and it is these whose function/ connection I cannot deduce. To me there should be only 1 or 2 pins for positive and negative of the field, or just positive. The photo (although blurred) shows the pin arrangement of two pairs of pins separated by a plastic shield. Can anyone cast any light on how to connect these? Thanks Jay ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:08 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe Mine is the Xenon type.. The manufacturer instructions do not address the question.http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_c ut/archive/the_unemployed_series/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe --> At 06:20 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > >9/2/2009 > >Hello Bob, You wrote: "What should I do with the shield wire at that >location?" > >Below is a copy of my 2/16/2005 posting from the archives addressing >this question. I think we're talking two different systems here. The classic strobe systems are xenon flash tubes supplied with high voltage (300v) to light up and triggered by still higher voltage (10Kv) to flash. These systems come with shielded wire in the installation kit. The strobe that is the subject of this tread is an LED device. We're not talking about the wires between a hv power supply and strobe heads but the 14v ship's power wire to the device. Unless the manufacture calls out shielded wire (and this should NEVER happen on a 14v supply wire) then potential victim/antagonist pairs have been identified and shielding is not useful. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:46 AM PST US From: "Johnson, Phillip (EXP)" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference Interesting comment about the compass being mandatory in the USA. In the Great White North and according to our inspection agency MDRA it is permissible to have an electronic compass providing it is backed up by a battery see item 2 under Cabin/cockpit, page 4 of 11 in http://www.md-ra.com/pdfs/what_inspectors_ck.PDF. Notice it says battery backup. Our regulations say :Magnetic compass and page 307 of the Aeronautical Information Manual http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/en/tp14371/pdf/hr/tp14371e.pdf says: Power-driven Aircraft - day VFR 605.14 No person shall conduct a takeoff in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of day VFR flight unless it is equipped with (a) where the aircraft is operated in uncontrolled airspace, an altimeter; (b) where the aircraft is operated in controlled airspace, a sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure; (c) an airspeed indicator; (d) a magnetic compass or a magnetic direction indicator that operates independently of the aircraft electrical generating system; (e) a tachometer for each engine and .......................................................... So I guess that since I have dual AHRS and it is also backed up by a secondary battery I don't need a whisky compass. (My friend has one in his RV and it swings 90 degrees when the landing lights go on but it is legal.) It may be prudent to search the US regulations and confirm the situation down there as most of our regulations are based on the US regulations with a few exceptions. Maybe this is one of those exceptions. Phillip Johnson ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:58 AM PST US From: Chris Stone Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe Bob... You can cut the shielded cable and use a two pin connector of your choosing (molex style, amp mate n loc). It should be a polarized connector to prevent connection reversal. The short distance that is unshielded at the connector will have no negatve impact on performance nor will it create noise problems for other devices. The total unshielded length created by the connector is a fraction of the total system length. Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR -----Original Message----- >From: Bob Collins >Sent: Sep 2, 2009 9:21 AM >To: bakerocb@cox.net, aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe > > >Appreciate that but the question isn't whether I should or shouldn't have >connectors. The question is only on the fate of the shielded cable at the >connector. > >-----Original Message----- >From: bakerocb@cox.net [mailto:bakerocb@cox.net] >Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:21 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net >Subject: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe > >9/2/2009 > >Hello Bob, You wrote: "What should I do with the shield wire at that >location?" > >Below is a copy of my 2/16/2005 posting from the archives addressing this >question. > >'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and >understand knowledge." > >============================================= > >2/16/2005 > >Hello Jay, Here is how I solved that problem. > >1) I bought some additional connectors and pins of the type that plugs into >the Whelen power supply. They are available from Terminal Town and other >sources. > >2) I ran a cut end of the Whelen provided cables in a continuous snake from >each wing tip light all the way to my single power supply in the fuselage >leaving a coil of excess cable in the fuselage near each wing root. > >3) Then I installed the connectors on the cable cut end and plugged into the >power supply. > >4) If I ever have to remove my one piece wing I will just unplug the two >cable connectors from the power supply, cut the connectors off the cable >ends, and pull the cables out of the fuselage.## > >5) When I reinstall the wing I just go through the same process as when >originally installing the wing by snaking the cable ends dangling from the >wing root into the power supply, reinstalling the connectors, and plugging >back into the power supply. > >Considering how seldom one pulls the wings off and how little effort and >cost is involved in cutting off and reinstalling the cable end connectors >this is the best solution for me. It also eliminates an additional cable >connection junction at the wing root. > >OC > >##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut >off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors for >wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall. > > >End Msg: #136 > > >============================================================ > >Time: 05:52:52 AM PST US >From: "Bob Collins" >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe > >Somewhat related question. I have the Whelen Comet system for my RV-7A, It >has shielded cable, of course, the power unit out to the wingtip strobe, >with the shield grounded at the power unit. >But, because there's a chance I won't be able to fly my project off the >field where it's now being built, I may hve to take the wings off and truck >it to anothre airport, so I want to use a terminal strip at the inboard wing >root, so that the wires can be disconnected. What should I do with the >shield wire at that location. Should I treat it like any other wire and >connect it at the terminal strip and continue it out to the wing tip? Or >should I just terminate it at the wing root? > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:22 AM PST US From: b e Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: King K76 pinout Check the aeroelectric website.- He has several pinouts there.- Bomar.b iz used to be GREAT but they don't have their stuff up anymore.- Heard Ce ssna, etc said it was copyright infringement or something like that.- I h ave access to one in a round about way and could get it for you if you can' t find what you need.- =0A=0ABarry Chapman=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________ ________________=0AFrom: Jay Hyde =0ATo: aeroelectric -list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 8:30:51 AM=0ASubje ct: AeroElectric-List: King K76 pinout=0A=0A=0ADoes anyone have the pinout/ connection diagram for a King K76 transponder?=0A-=0AThanks!=0AJay=0A- ===================== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe From: "Matt Prather" If you choose to insert a connector at the wing joint, it's fine to route any shielding through that connector. Dedicate one pin in the connector for each shield that goes through the connector. If there's a 'bleeder' wire with foil shield, just route the bleeder through the connector. If the shield is braid, separate the braid from the center, bundle/trim the braid as necessary to install it in the connector pin, and install the pin in the connector body. Unlike coax (RG-58), it's not important for the shielding to be uninterrupted. A short length where the shield doesn't surround the 'signal' wire(s) won't have any impact on noise ingress or egress. True coax feedline depends on maintaining controlled impedance along the transmission line in order to avoid leakage, reflection, and detuning. Shielded wire doesn't have the same requirements, as it isn't designed to offer a controlled impedance environment in the first place. Regards, Matt- > > > Appreciate that but the question isn't whether I should or shouldn't have > connectors. The question is only on the fate of the shielded cable at the > connector. > > -----Original Message----- > From: bakerocb@cox.net [mailto:bakerocb@cox.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:21 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net > Subject: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe > > 9/2/2009 > > Hello Bob, You wrote: "What should I do with the shield wire at that > location?" > > Below is a copy of my 2/16/2005 posting from the archives addressing this > question. > > 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and > understand knowledge." > > ============================================= > > 2/16/2005 > > Hello Jay, Here is how I solved that problem. > > 1) I bought some additional connectors and pins of the type that plugs > into > the Whelen power supply. They are available from Terminal Town and other > sources. > > 2) I ran a cut end of the Whelen provided cables in a continuous snake > from > each wing tip light all the way to my single power supply in the fuselage > leaving a coil of excess cable in the fuselage near each wing root. > > 3) Then I installed the connectors on the cable cut end and plugged into > the > power supply. > > 4) If I ever have to remove my one piece wing I will just unplug the two > cable connectors from the power supply, cut the connectors off the cable > ends, and pull the cables out of the fuselage.## > > 5) When I reinstall the wing I just go through the same process as when > originally installing the wing by snaking the cable ends dangling from the > wing root into the power supply, reinstalling the connectors, and plugging > back into the power supply. > > Considering how seldom one pulls the wings off and how little effort and > cost is involved in cutting off and reinstalling the cable end connectors > this is the best solution for me. It also eliminates an additional cable > connection junction at the wing root. > > OC > > ##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut > off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors > for > wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall. > > > End Msg: #136 > > > ============================================================ > > Time: 05:52:52 AM PST US > From: "Bob Collins" > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe > > Somewhat related question. I have the Whelen Comet system for my RV-7A, It > has shielded cable, of course, the power unit out to the wingtip strobe, > with the shield grounded at the power unit. > But, because there's a chance I won't be able to fly my project off the > field where it's now being built, I may hve to take the wings off and > truck > it to anothre airport, so I want to use a terminal strip at the inboard > wing > root, so that the wires can be disconnected. What should I do with the > shield wire at that location. Should I treat it like any other wire and > connect it at the terminal strip and continue it out to the wing tip? Or > should I just terminate it at the wing root? > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe At 07:47 AM 9/1/2009, you wrote: > > >Somewhat related question. I have the Whelen Comet system for my RV-7A, It >has shielded cable, of course, the power unit out to the wingtip strobe, >with the shield grounded at the power unit. > >But, because there's a chance I won't be able to fly my project off the >field where it's now being built, I may hve to take the wings off and truck >it to anothre airport, so I want to use a terminal strip at the inboard wing >root, so that the wires can be disconnected. What should I do with the >shield wire at that location. Should I treat it like any other wire and >connect it at the terminal strip and continue it out to the wing tip? Or >should I just terminate it at the wing root? You can use the terminal strip or any of several practical connectors. Treat the shield ground like a 4th wire in the bundle and favor it with its own splice at the terminal strip or in the connector. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: King K76 pinout At 08:30 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: >Does anyone have the pinout/ connection diagram for a King K76 transponder? > >Thanks! >Jay > See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/ Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator connections At 08:30 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: >Hi there, > >I am trying to connect a Nippon Denso alternator into a Z scheme and >am confused as to the connections. There are 4 small pins in a >plastic housing and it is these whose function/ connection I cannot >deduce. To me there should be only 1 or 2 pins for positive and >negative of the field, or just positive. The photo (although >blurred) shows the pin arrangement of two pairs of pins separated by >a plastic shield. Can anyone cast any light on how to connect these? > >Thanks > >Jay What's the part number or better yet, the Lester number of your particular alternator. You can get a pinout at: http://www.quality-built.com/catalog.htm Enter make, model of car that the alternator is used on or . . . go to the "Cross Reference" tab of the above link and enter the OEM or Lester number. Step though the various photo views of the particular alternator and I think you'll find that one of the photos is a pinout diagram. Having said that, you probably wont find a connection to your alternator's field terminals. The vast majority of alternators in the automotive wild have built in regulators. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference From: I see Aircraft Spruce sells a magnetic compass shield specifically for the PAI-700 that is 80% nickel. Supposedly this is used to absorb the offending magnetism. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:37 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference longg@pjm.com wrote: > > Thanks Bob, > > Based on your last comment I've thought seriously of just removing it. I > have 2 Dynon AHRS remotes in the wings and 2 Garmin GPS units (panel) > and 1 handheld unit on board. If all of that goes to hell, I'll just > land in a field and ask directions. > Regardless of that, you will need to please the bureaucrats. The regs say you need a compass. Come hell or high-water, you don't have an airplane until you have a compass. I got a cheap, light plastic thingy from Advance Auto. A 1" hole in the dash, and I have it front and center, but low enough that it can be safely ignored (ie, it doesn't interfere with the all important view of the runway 8*). ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:25 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe // You can use the terminal strip or any of several practical connectors. Treat the shield ground like a 4th wire in the bundle and favor it with its own splice at the terminal strip or in the connector. Will do. Many thanks! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:44 AM PST US From: CardinalNSB@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Compass interference protection Is there any better (generally available) material to wrap around the magnetic compass to shield it from interference, that's better than MuMetal? Thanks Skip ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:50 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference But how does it let the earths magnetic field lines into the compass? Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:16 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference I see Aircraft Spruce sells a magnetic compass shield specifically for the PAI-700 that is 80% nickel. Supposedly this is used to absorb the offending magnetism. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:37 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference longg@pjm.com wrote: > > Thanks Bob, > > Based on your last comment I've thought seriously of just removing it. I > have 2 Dynon AHRS remotes in the wings and 2 Garmin GPS units (panel) > and 1 handheld unit on board. If all of that goes to hell, I'll just > land in a field and ask directions. > Regardless of that, you will need to please the bureaucrats. The regs say you need a compass. Come hell or high-water, you don't have an airplane until you have a compass. I got a cheap, light plastic thingy from Advance Auto. A 1" hole in the dash, and I have it front and center, but low enough that it can be safely ignored (ie, it doesn't interfere with the all important view of the runway 8*). ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe At 07:40 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > > > I think we're talking two different systems here. . . Oops . . . I see there were two threads of discussion on similar topics. Got my mouse cord tangled around my SEND button. The response was accurate with respect to the simple-ideas, just not well tied to the thread . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference At 10:45 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > >But how does it let the earths magnetic field lines into the compass? EXACTLY! The preferred technique for dealing with on-board, magnetic interference issues is to first craft your system to minimize such risks. This includes keeping alternator b-leads out of the cockpit and keeping other fat-wires as low as practical and/or forward of the firewall. Now, go swing your compass and TEST AT ALL 4 cardinal orientations for the effects of turning things ON and OFF. If any combination of switch operations causes more than a couple degrees of variation, you have some choices for either KNOWING what those variations are and accommodating them on your compass calibration card -OR- take steps to reduce the effects to acceptable levels. You do this by (1) increasing the distance between compass and the offending field generator or as a last resort, (2)adding some form of shielding between the compass and the interfering field source. I mean last resort. I'm aware of NO instance in a TC aircraft where the problem was fixed by added shielding. In fact, for black boxes tested to DO160 there may have been an investigation into Magnetic Effects of any black box upon the panel mounted liquid compass. These effects must be very small or the device is not qualified for installation on the aircraft. What we cannot control by DO160 pre-tests are the effects of wire routing and those of devices with LARGE magnetic fields like starters, alternators, PM motors, etc. etc. Even in the instance where a B&C standby alternator mounted on the engine accessory case upset a cowl mounted compass, we MOVED the compass. Adding weight and $cost$ of ownership by shielding is a repugnant solution that we'll go to some effort to avoid. Wrapping the compass itself in a shield will indeed make it immune to the effects of on-board interference while making it useless as an aid to navigation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:03 AM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 degrees rich of peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at cruise when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit from some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he doesn't have the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I have thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come upon an inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if it is not permanently attached to the plane? Name withheld to protect the currently innocent! :>) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) I've just uploaded a new Z-Figure intended to address the unique requirements of automotive conversions that use the Kettering points/coil/distributor ignition systems. In this case, the drawing is tailored to the design philosophy of Wm. Wynn at Flycorvair.com with additional attention to minimizing single points of failure for both systems -AND- observance of contemporary philosophies for handling always hot wires off the battery bus. This drawing also introduces a new product from the 'Connection. We've got about a dozen new products in the pipe but I needed a good training program for my kids who are getting geared up to take over the business side of the AeroElectric Connection. The AEC9024 Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) I've just uploaded a new Z-Figure intended to address the unique requirements of automotive conversions that use the Kettering points/coil/distributor ignition systems. http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z09A.pdf In this case, the drawing is tailored to the design philosophy of Wm. Wynn at Flycorvair.com with additional attention to minimizing single points of failure for both systems -AND- observance of contemporary philosophies for handling always hot wires off the battery bus. This drawing also introduces a new product from the 'Connection. We've got about a dozen new products in the pipe but I needed a good training program for my kids who are getting geared up to take over the business side of the AeroElectric Connection. The AEC9024 . . . OOPS . . . got tangled around that SEND button again . . . The AEC9024 series product offers 4 functions in a single device that uses a packaging scheme much like the crowbar OV modules. In this case, the device incorporates a microprocessor and 10 other components that can be used to effect . . . Contactor Power Management (make el-cheeso battery contactors operate luke-warm). Alternator OV disconnect relay driver for PM alternators LV Warning module for LED or Incandescant lamps. Aux Battery Management Module. Figure Z-9 illustrates three of the four functions for the AEC9024 The 9024 will be shipped with instructions for wiring to accomplish any of these functions. You program the device to the intended task by clipping jumpers. This critter is an attractive training product and equally attractive merchandising opportunity. One product of only 11 components helps keep inventory costs low. The critter will sell for under $30. Software is under development and the board artwork will go to the board shop next week. My chamber is up an running so testing won't take long. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:51 AM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference Sort of...... It's really a 5" x 12" strip of mu metal that you'll have to fabricate into the appropriate form to shield the PAI-700. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:16 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference I see Aircraft Spruce sells a magnetic compass shield specifically for the PAI-700 that is 80% nickel. Supposedly this is used to absorb the offending magnetism. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:37 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Protecting the compass from interference longg@pjm.com wrote: > > Thanks Bob, > > Based on your last comment I've thought seriously of just removing it. I > have 2 Dynon AHRS remotes in the wings and 2 Garmin GPS units (panel) > and 1 handheld unit on board. If all of that goes to hell, I'll just > land in a field and ask directions. > Regardless of that, you will need to please the bureaucrats. The regs say you need a compass. Come hell or high-water, you don't have an airplane until you have a compass. I got a cheap, light plastic thingy from Advance Auto. A 1" hole in the dash, and I have it front and center, but low enough that it can be safely ignored (ie, it doesn't interfere with the all important view of the runway 8*). ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:01 AM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane Hi Bill, My take would be that you're flying a Mooney - it's not an Ercoupe (meaning it's not a super cheap airplane to begin with). It cost about $1600 to get one of the best systems out there (Electronics International), or you can go cheaper and get a JPI for about $1300. If you start down the GAMI path it's not going to be cheap anyway...I'd spend the bucks and get a good EGT/CHT monitor. If you want to keep the engine happy and fly it right, you should have one anyway....just to see what the engine is doing. Why go through all the work of balancing the cylinders with some cobbled together system, only to remove it later?? Makes little sense to me, but that's just my opinion. My 2 cents as usual. Cheers, Stein _________________________________________ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill >Bradburry >Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:11 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane > > > > > My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 >degrees rich of >peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at cruise >when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit from >some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he doesn't have >the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and >installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. >My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust >manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the >cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I have >thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come upon an >inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. >What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if >it is not >permanently attached to the plane? > >Name withheld to protect the currently innocent! :>) > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane From: "Matt Prather" Here's a dedicated K-type meter: http://www.virtualvillage.com/digital-thermometer-for-k-type-thermocouples/sku003920-016 If the above wraps, try this: http://tinyurl.com/kloqam Matt- > > > My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 degrees rich > of > peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at > cruise > when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit from > some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he doesn't > have > the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and > installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. > My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust > manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the > cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I have > thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come upon an > inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. > What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if it is > not > permanently attached to the plane? > > Name withheld to protect the currently innocent! :>) > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane From: "Matt Prather" It sounds like you might have a malfunction in either the ignition or fuel delivery systems on the engine. Maybe an air leak (around an intake tube where it goes into the sump)? Does the fuel flow match what's published in the operating manual for the airplane? I can't speak to the legality of temporarily installing additional instrumentation. My guess is that if it were battery powered or driven by the cigar lighter there wouldn't be a problem. Likely nobody wouldn't find out unless the airplane were involved in an accident while the system were in the airplane. Functionally, the temperature measured would be slightly more dependent on the CHT than would a properly installed EGT probe, as the exhaust stacks are cooled by their attachment to the cylinders. Regardless, I think you might get useful data. Depending on how little wiring and soldering you want to do, it could be fairly clunky to use, but as a diagnostic tool, temporarily installed, it should be effective enough. Another thought is that the probes are the 'cheap' part of the certified system, and the display is the expensive part. Install the probes, and then use a temporary instrument to read the data from them.. To read the data, I know it's fairly common for the cheap Harbor Freight multimeters to include an input and display mode for a thermocouple probe. I can't recall the wire type that mine is designed for, but I'd think it would be perfectly adequate. Keep in mind, the absolute accuracy isn't all that important. You need decent repeatability only. The only thing you really need to find is the order in which each cylinder reaches peak EGT. The first to peak is the leanest cylinder, and the last to peak is the richest. Here's a mutlimeter from Harbor Freight that includes input for a temperature probe. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37772 You could choose to install some sort of switching system (Aircraft Spruce sells a rotary switch), or you could just route all of the probe leads into the cockpit and plug each one into the meter in turn and record the necessary data. If you are really ambitious, and your time isn't worth that much, Analog Devices makes an IC designed to read thermocouples. You could use these IC's in a home grown meter.. BTW, how do the spark plugs look? Matt- > > > My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 degrees rich > of > peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at > cruise > when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit from > some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he doesn't > have > the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and > installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. > My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust > manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the > cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I have > thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come upon an > inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. > What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if it is > not > permanently attached to the plane? > > Name withheld to protect the currently innocent! :>) > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane At 11:10 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > > > My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 degrees rich of >peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at cruise >when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit from >some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he doesn't have >the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and >installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. >My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust >manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the >cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I have >thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come upon an >inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. One of my favorite sources of converting various phenomena into recorded or displayed data is Weeder Technologies. http://www.weedtech.com/ They offer a 4-channel thermocouple signal conditioner that you can read on the USB port of a laptop. Check out the WTTCI thermocouple module for $109. They even offer software at no charge that will let you display, record, and/or graph the data. >What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if it is not >permanently attached to the plane? It's not possible to achieve necessary precision for balancing individual cylinder performance without extending a REAL EGT probe into the gas stream for the cylinder of interest. Now, this only requires one small hole through which you can install the standard type K EGT probe. This is largely between you and your AI at the next annual . . . how's the "approved" way to plug 3 holes that you're not using any more. Do you have a single probe EGT installed now? I would think you could install 3 additional EGT probes for the purpose of switching them to a single instrument. The fact that you used the extra probes for some investigative activity in the past . . . or have even abandoned the switch in favor of the single display but left three probes in place to "plug the holes" shouldn't be a hard sell either. In any case, the probes need to get into the approximate center of gas flow in the pipe. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:41 AM PST US From: "Roger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) > I've just uploaded a new Z-Figure intended to address the > unique requirements of automotive conversions that use the > Kettering points/coil/distributor ignition systems. > > In this case, the drawing is tailored to the design philosophy > of Wm. Wynn at Flycorvair.com with additional attention > to minimizing single points of failure for both systems > -AND- observance of contemporary philosophies for handling > always hot wires off the battery bus. > > This drawing also introduces a new product from the 'Connection. > We've got about a dozen new products in the pipe but I needed > a good training program for my kids who are getting geared up > to take over the business side of the AeroElectric Connection. > Bob, Is there a reason why you are using a single ignition switch, with a single point of failure, for the dual ignition? Roger ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:45 PM PST US From: DCS317@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to convert Z12 to Z14 Bob, I have a Z12 system and want to convert to a Z14. Can I use my B&C SB-1 Alternator Controller instead of springing for a new LR-3 for my SB 20 amp B&C? If so, what do I do with the hall effect sensor and leads 1 and 2 of the controller? (I want the dual battery and bus isolation advantage despite the weight increas and complexity.) Don ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:49 PM PST US From: "David LLoyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT panel remote test Does anyone have the pinout/ connection or circuit diagrams for the varous 121.5 Mh ELT's, specifically dealing with the mini panel mounted ELT test units mounted on the main panel and usually connected via telephone extention type cable ? You would think the various ELT manuf. would standardize on one ELT test panel design so it is compatible with more than one manuf. I am trying to not remove and throw away a mounted ELT function test unit just because I am mounting another ELT brand that uses a panel mechanically similar and using the same old telephone cable. I suspect a simple electronics change in the test unit would make it compatible with the new unit....... Thanks, David ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:17 PM PST US From: David M Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane Aircraft Spruce and Specialty. They even have the probes already made :) and are quite reasonable in prices. David M. Bill Bradburry wrote: > > My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 degrees rich of > peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at cruise > when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit from > some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he doesn't have > the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and > installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. > My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust > manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the > cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I have > thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come upon an > inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. > What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if it is not > permanently attached to the plane? > > Name withheld to protect the currently innocent! :>) > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:22 PM PST US From: David M Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane We're using the Analog Devices thermocouple IC's and it's not really all that hard if you use their engineering advice. Very inexpensive, too. You can bring the outputs of their IC's (AD 494 and AD 495) to feed many types of readers. We bring the 0-5v into a Labjack USB input into a laptop for logging and trending. The Labjack U12 is the older model but that's what we use. It's around $100. There are even cheapers ways to do the A/D but they take a *lot* more time and engineering. David M. Matt Prather wrote: > > It sounds like you might have a malfunction in either the ignition or fuel > delivery systems on the engine. Maybe an air leak (around an intake tube > where it goes into the sump)? Does the fuel flow match what's published > in the operating manual for the airplane? > > I can't speak to the legality of temporarily installing additional > instrumentation. My guess is that if it were battery powered or driven by > the cigar lighter there wouldn't be a problem. Likely nobody wouldn't > find out unless the airplane were involved in an accident while the system > were in the airplane. > > Functionally, the temperature measured would be slightly more dependent on > the CHT than would a properly installed EGT probe, as the exhaust stacks > are cooled by their attachment to the cylinders. Regardless, I think you > might get useful data. Depending on how little wiring and soldering you > want to do, it could be fairly clunky to use, but as a diagnostic tool, > temporarily installed, it should be effective enough. > > Another thought is that the probes are the 'cheap' part of the certified > system, and the display is the expensive part. Install the probes, and > then use a temporary instrument to read the data from them.. > > To read the data, I know it's fairly common for the cheap Harbor Freight > multimeters to include an input and display mode for a thermocouple probe. > I can't recall the wire type that mine is designed for, but I'd think it > would be perfectly adequate. Keep in mind, the absolute accuracy isn't > all that important. You need decent repeatability only. The only thing > you really need to find is the order in which each cylinder reaches peak > EGT. The first to peak is the leanest cylinder, and the last to peak is > the richest. > > Here's a mutlimeter from Harbor Freight that includes input for a > temperature probe. > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37772 > > You could choose to install some sort of switching system (Aircraft Spruce > sells a rotary switch), or you could just route all of the probe leads > into the cockpit and plug each one into the meter in turn and record the > necessary data. > > If you are really ambitious, and your time isn't worth that much, Analog > Devices makes an IC designed to read thermocouples. You could use these > IC's in a home grown meter.. > > BTW, how do the spark plugs look? > > > Matt- > >> >> >> My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 degrees rich >> of >> peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at >> cruise >> when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit from >> some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he doesn't >> have >> the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and >> installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. >> My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust >> manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the >> cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I have >> thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come upon an >> inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. >> What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if it is >> not >> permanently attached to the plane? >> >> Name withheld to protect the currently innocent! :>) >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:44 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane At 12:07 PM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > >Here's a dedicated K-type meter: > >http://www.virtualvillage.com/digital-thermometer-for-k-type-thermocouples/sku003920-016 > >If the above wraps, try this: > >http://tinyurl.com/kloqam Yeah, that works too. You can rig a 2-pole, 4-position rotary switch to "scan" the 4 probes for comparison. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to convert Z12 to Z14 At 02:07 PM 9/2/2009, you wrote: >Bob, >I have a Z12 system and want to convert to a Z14. Can I use my B&C >SB-1 Alternator Controller instead of springing for a new LR-3 for >my SB 20 amp B&C? Yes, just re-adjust it for 14.4 instead of 13.5 >If so, what do I do with the hall effect sensor and leads 1 and 2 of >the controller? If they're installed and hooked up, leave them as is. The SB-1 doesn't have LV warning so you'll want to add that to the aux system as a separate accessory. > (I want the dual battery and bus isolation advantage despite the > weight increas and complexity.) Have you had an experience that prompts you to make this change? Recall that hundreds and perhaps thousands of expensive GA aircraft are boring holes in lots of clouds with Z12 installed . . . and even if Z12 were NOT installed, they'd still be poking holes. Are you planning on having independent, IFR capable instrumentation installed on both pilot locations? That was the original idea behind Z-14. If not, what single failure of installed equipment prompts you to believe that Z14 is more likely to get you on the ground than Z12? Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) > >Bob, > >Is there a reason why you are using a single ignition switch, with a >single point of failure, for the dual ignition? > >Roger Yup, that's a William Wynn design philosophy described in Chapter 5 of his installation documentation: http://tinyurl.com/nd42op I would have opted for a pair of independent switches but his rationale for the single switch is well articulated. I did expand to 4-poles so that I could protect each power lead on it's own fuse. Getting into a one versus two switch argument wasn't going to be very productive. Of course, any builder could split to a pair of switches at their own choosing. This Z-figure offers an "AeroElectric Connection" style power distribution diagram that assists his builders in crafting an installation consistent with his well thought out design goals. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:51 PM PST US From: ray Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) Given that both sides of the discussion have merit, does any know if they still make the blocks that clamp over a pair of toggle switches. Much of the stock video footage of missile launches and control rooms show someone flipping one. They usually had yellow and black diagonal stripes. Is there a modern equivalent To that type of setup. Thanks, Raymond Julian do not archive Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> Bob, >> >> Is there a reason why you are using a single ignition switch, with a >> single point of failure, for the dual ignition? >> >> Roger > > Yup, that's a William Wynn design philosophy described > in Chapter 5 of his installation documentation: > > * http://tinyurl.com/nd42op* > > I would have opted for a pair of independent switches > but his rationale for the single switch is well > articulated. I did expand to 4-poles so that I could > protect each power lead on it's own fuse. Getting into > a one versus two switch argument wasn't going to be > very productive. > > Of course, any builder could split to a pair of > switches at their own choosing. This Z-figure offers > an "AeroElectric Connection" style power distribution > diagram that assists his builders in crafting an installation > consistent with his well thought out design goals. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) From: Franz Fux I have seen them at Stein Air Franz On 02/09/09 2:47 PM, "ray" wrote: > > Given that both sides of the discussion have merit, does any know if > they still make the blocks that clamp over a pair of toggle switches. > Much of the stock video footage of missile launches and control rooms > show someone flipping one. They usually had yellow and black diagonal > stripes. > > Is there a modern equivalent To that type of setup. > > Thanks, > Raymond Julian > > do not archive > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>> Bob, >>> >>> Is there a reason why you are using a single ignition switch, with a >>> single point of failure, for the dual ignition? >>> >>> Roger >> >> Yup, that's a William Wynn design philosophy described >> in Chapter 5 of his installation documentation: >> >> * http://tinyurl.com/nd42op* >> >> I would have opted for a pair of independent switches >> but his rationale for the single switch is well >> articulated. I did expand to 4-poles so that I could >> protect each power lead on it's own fuse. Getting into >> a one versus two switch argument wasn't going to be >> very productive. >> >> Of course, any builder could split to a pair of >> switches at their own choosing. This Z-figure offers >> an "AeroElectric Connection" style power distribution >> diagram that assists his builders in crafting an installation >> consistent with his well thought out design goals. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> --------------------------------------- >> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) >> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) >> ( appearance of being right . . . ) >> ( ) >> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) >> --------------------------------------- >> >> * >> >> >> * > > > > Franz Fux Director of Operations Last Frontier Heliskiing Ltd. Bell 2 Lodge P.O. Box 1237 Vernon, BC, V1T 6N6 CANADA Office Contact T: (250) 558-7980 F: (250) 558-7981 http://www.lastfrontierheli.com Lodge Contact T: (250) 275-4770 F: (250) 275-4912 http://www.bell2lodge.com ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:18 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane On 2 Sep 2009, at 12:10, Bill Bradburry wrote: > > > > My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 degrees > rich of > peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at > cruise > when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit > from > some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he > doesn't have > the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and > installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. > My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust > manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the > cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I > have > thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come > upon an > inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. > What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if > it is not > permanently attached to the plane? I predict that the response time of thermocouples clamped to the outside of the exhaust pipes would be so slow as to make them essentially useless. I won't comment on legality. It sounds like you are spending a lot more on fuel than would be needed if the aircraft was running correctly. Given the cost of this extra fuel, and the cost of top overhauls if you cook a cylinder(s) due to poor EGT data, I recommend you spend the bucks to install an approved, reasonable quality four cylinder EGT and CHT system. It would likely prove to be a false economy to go too cheap here. Good luck. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (Flight Test Phase) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:10 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane There is something definitely wrong with the engine, assuming it is Lycoming 200hp fuel injected. Many 200hp Mooneys will run fine LOP with stock injectors. I'd be looking at plugs, mags and injectors for starters. Also, a wobble check on the exhaust valves, and a leak check on the intake tubes. If it is the 180hp carbureted engine, check for intake leaks, and try some carb heat to help. SteinAir, Inc. wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > My take would be that you're flying a Mooney - it's not an Ercoupe (meaning > it's not a super cheap airplane to begin with). It cost about $1600 to get > one of the best systems out there (Electronics International), or you can go > cheaper and get a JPI for about $1300. If you start down the GAMI path it's > not going to be cheap anyway...I'd spend the bucks and get a good EGT/CHT > monitor. If you want to keep the engine happy and fly it right, you should > have one anyway....just to see what the engine is doing. Why go through all > the work of balancing the cylinders with some cobbled together system, only > to remove it later?? Makes little sense to me, but that's just my opinion. > > My 2 cents as usual. > > Cheers, > Stein > > _________________________________________ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to > which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged > material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or > taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or > entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive > this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any > computer. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill >> Bradburry >> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:11 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane >> >> >> >> >> My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 >> degrees rich of >> peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at cruise >> when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit from >> some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he doesn't have >> the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and >> installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. >> My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust >> manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the >> cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I have >> thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come upon an >> inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. >> What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if >> it is not >> permanently attached to the plane? >> >> Name withheld to protect the currently innocent! :>) >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane From: "Matt Prather" Kevin, I agree that compared to buying engine parts, instrumentation is a fair deal. However, certainly people were able to diagnose engine malfunction before multipoint CHT/EGT existed. If the POH says the engine should be able to do something that this engine isn't doing, a good mechanic should be able to track it down. Regards, Matt- > > > On 2 Sep 2009, at 12:10, Bill Bradburry wrote: > >> > > >> >> My son owns a Mooney. He can not lean it past about 50-100 degrees >> rich of >> peak with out it starting to miss. He is burning about 12 Gal/Hr at >> cruise >> when I think he should be able to get to about 10. He could benefit >> from >> some type of injector balancing like from GAMI. Problem is he >> doesn't have >> the necessary EGT probes to get the information for each cylinder and >> installing a certified rig to do this would be too expensive. >> My thought is that he could clamp probes to the outside of the exhaust >> manifold tubes for each cylinder and run them to a reader head in the >> cockpit to get "close enough" information for this application. I >> have >> thermocouple wire and could make the probes. Where could he come >> upon an >> inexpensive reader head for thermocouples. >> What is the community take on this? Would it work? Is it legal if >> it is not >> permanently attached to the plane? > > I predict that the response time of thermocouples clamped to the > outside of the exhaust pipes would be so slow as to make them > essentially useless. I won't comment on legality. > > It sounds like you are spending a lot more on fuel than would be > needed if the aircraft was running correctly. Given the cost of this > extra fuel, and the cost of top overhauls if you cook a cylinder(s) > due to poor EGT data, I recommend you spend the bucks to install an > approved, reasonable quality four cylinder EGT and CHT system. It > would likely prove to be a false economy to go too cheap here. > > Good luck. > > -- > Kevin Horton > RV-8 (Flight Test Phase) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:22 PM PST US From: "Colm O'Reilly" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator choices Is it straightforward / recommended to modify an internally regulated alternator to be externally regulated or should I opt to buy an externally regulated model and not attempt to modify ? What kind of pitfalls should I expect or have been experienced IRL (In Real Life) ? I ask this because almost all of the alternators I have seen for sale are internally regulated, even from aircraft / aero engine shops. Thanks in advance, Colm O'Reilly ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) At 04:47 PM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > >Given that both sides of the discussion have merit, does any know if >they still make the blocks that clamp over a pair of toggle >switches. Much of the stock video footage of missile launches and >control rooms show someone flipping one. They usually had yellow and >black diagonal stripes. > >Is there a modern equivalent To that type of setup. There's a variety of hinged covers that can be used over the bat-handled toggle switches. http://tinyurl.com/mnoc55 These are readily available from a lot of sources. Know that they come in a lot of dash numbers for spring loaded closed, stable in open position, and cams on the inside of the cover to force the handle into a certian position when the cover is closed. OH . . . a PAIR of toggle switches? Inadvertent operation fences? I think Eric Jones offers some off of his website. Are you talking about those honk'en big covers with a hinged lid? Why would you want such a thing on your panel? Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:21 PM PST US From: DCS317@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Changing Z12 to the Z14 electrical system Bob and group, I have a Z12 system in my RV-8 and want to change to Z14 because of my comfort zone with two batteries and two separate busses. I've researched Z14 in the archives and can't find anything about my questions below: 1.Do I have to buy a second LR-3 alternator controller for my 20 amp aux alternator or can I use my old SB-1 alternator controller, doing whatever is necessary and prudent with the Hall effect current sensor and leads 1 and 2 that connect to the Hall sensor from the SB-1 controller? 2. Since I finished my RV-8 in 1994, are there any new suggestions for the main or aux warning lights on Z14? 3. I didn't include the battery temp sensor in 1994 in the Z12. Should I include them in my Z14? Don RV-8 N417DS ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:58 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: rigging a thermocouple on a certified plane Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 12:07 PM 9/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> >> Here's a dedicated K-type meter: >> >> http://www.virtualvillage.com/digital-thermometer-for-k-type-thermocouples/sku003920-016 >> >> >> If the above wraps, try this: >> >> http://tinyurl.com/kloqam > > Yeah, that works too. You can rig a 2-pole, 4-position > rotary switch to "scan" the 4 probes for comparison. > See: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf > > > Bob . . . What I found even more interesting is the list of available probes, including http://www.virtualvillage.com/k-type-thermocouple-temperature-sensor-probe-10ft-3m/sku003820-032 good to 800 degrees C. Any thoughts on adapting this as an EGT probe? I like $5.99 a lot better than $30-$40 for a purpose-built aviation probe. Also, I wonder if it would be suitable for CHT in the 250-450 F range (120-260C) with a meter that's compatible with a K series probe. Charlie ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:59 PM PST US From: ray Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) I think we've had a little data dropout. What I'm asking about is a way to physically tie the 2 handles together so that the 2 switches must be operated together. The idea being to eliminate a single point of failure while still implementing the 1 switch philosophy from WW. Raymond Julian do not archive Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 04:47 PM 9/2/2009, you wrote: >> >> Given that both sides of the discussion have merit, does any know if >> they still make the blocks that clamp over a pair of toggle switches. >> Much of the stock video footage of missile launches and control rooms >> show someone flipping one. They usually had yellow and black diagonal >> stripes. >> >> Is there a modern equivalent To that type of setup. > > There's a variety of hinged covers that can be > used over the bat-handled toggle switches. > > * http://tinyurl.com/mnoc55* > > These are readily available from a lot of sources. > Know that they come in a lot of dash numbers for > spring loaded closed, stable in open position, > and cams on the inside of the cover to force the > handle into a certian position when the cover is > closed. > > OH . . . a PAIR of toggle switches? Inadvertent > operation fences? I think Eric Jones offers some > off of his website. > > Are you talking about those honk'en big covers > with a hinged lid? Why would you want such a thing > on your panel? > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:40 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe 9/2/2009 Hello Bob, Yes I understand that. But why not finesse the problem regarding the fate of the cable shield at the connectors and also the requirement for any connectors at all when they are not necessary with the technique that I described? In this case simpler is both better and cheaper. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: Recall one of the axioms of building: "That which you leave out cannot cause you problems later on." ===================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Collins" Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:21 AM Subject: RE: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe > Appreciate that but the question isn't whether I should or shouldn't have > connectors. The question is only on the fate of the shielded cable at the > connector. ================================================= > > -----Original Message----- > From: bakerocb@cox.net [mailto:bakerocb@cox.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:21 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net > Subject: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe > > 9/2/2009 > > Hello Bob, You wrote: "What should I do with the shield wire at that > location?" > > Below is a copy of my 2/16/2005 posting from the archives addressing this > question. > > 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and > understand knowledge." > > ============================================= > > 2/16/2005 > > Hello Jay, Here is how I solved that problem. > > 1) I bought some additional connectors and pins of the type that plugs > into > the Whelen power supply. They are available from Terminal Town and other > sources. > > 2) I ran a cut end of the Whelen provided cables in a continuous snake > from > each wing tip light all the way to my single power supply in the fuselage > leaving a coil of excess cable in the fuselage near each wing root. > > 3) Then I installed the connectors on the cable cut end and plugged into > the > power supply. > > 4) If I ever have to remove my one piece wing I will just unplug the two > cable connectors from the power supply, cut the connectors off the cable > ends, and pull the cables out of the fuselage.## > > 5) When I reinstall the wing I just go through the same process as when > originally installing the wing by snaking the cable ends dangling from the > wing root into the power supply, reinstalling the connectors, and plugging > back into the power supply. > > Considering how seldom one pulls the wings off and how little effort and > cost is involved in cutting off and reinstalling the cable end connectors > this is the best solution for me. It also eliminates an additional cable > connection junction at the wing root. > > OC > > ##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut > off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors > for > wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall. > > > End Msg: #136 > > > ============================================================ > > Time: 05:52:52 AM PST US > From: "Bob Collins" > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe > > Somewhat related question. I have the Whelen Comet system for my RV-7A, It > has shielded cable, of course, the power unit out to the wingtip strobe, > with the shield grounded at the power unit. > But, because there's a chance I won't be able to fly my project off the > field where it's now being built, I may hve to take the wings off and > truck > it to anothre airport, so I want to use a terminal strip at the inboard > wing > root, so that the wires can be disconnected. What should I do with the > shield wire at that location. Should I treat it like any other wire and > connect it at the terminal strip and continue it out to the wing tip? Or > should I just terminate it at the wing root? > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:06 PM PST US From: "Neal George" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) Raymond - The switch-tie device you describe would be easy to fabricate. A chunk of 0.250 or 0.3125 aluminum, a drill press and a little time with a file... neal ======= Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) I think we've had a little data dropout. What I'm asking about is a way to physically tie the 2 handles together so that the 2 switches must be operated together. The idea being to eliminate a single point of failure while still implementing the 1 switch philosophy from WW. Raymond Julian do not archive ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:33 PM PST US From: Joel Jacobs Subject: AeroElectric-List: Another power distribution scheme I'm building a VFR Murphy Rebel with an electronic ignition Subaru engine and dual rear mounted batteries. I've been working on a power distribution plan for a couple weeks and I think I got it where I'm happy with it but wanted to maybe get some input from you folks. You know - get a few knowledgeable eyes on it and make sure I'm not doing something really stupid. Couple notable items, I am using an internally regulated alternator - I chose not to have an alternator disconnect. I figure the risk of damaging the alternator or avionics through load dump was just too great. The B lead goes straight to battery A. I did however provide a solution for the remote chance of an OV fault by isolating battery A and running off battery B. Battery A is sacrificed in this case. The essential bus can be fed from either or both batteries. The non-essential bus drops out during battery only operation - this can be overridden for preflights etc. I know I could just copy one of the Z drawings and they were a huge knowledge boost to study but none seemed to fit exactly what I had in mind and I get a lot of satisfaction going through the noodling process. Thanks for looking, Joel ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:19 PM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) ray wrote: > > Given that both sides of the discussion have merit, does any know if > they still make the blocks that clamp over a pair of toggle switches. > Much of the stock video footage of missile launches and control rooms > show someone flipping one. They usually had yellow and black diagonal > stripes. > > Is there a modern equivalent To that type of setup. mpja.com has been giving them away for the almost the cost of shipping for a while now. -- Ernest Christley, President Ernest@TechnicalTakedown.com TechnicalTakedown, LLC www.TechnicalTakedown.com 101 Steep Bank Dr. Cary, NC 27518 (919) 741-9397 ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:36 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) At 09:43 PM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > >Raymond - >The switch-tie device you describe would be easy to fabricate. >A chunk of 0.250 or 0.3125 aluminum, a drill press and a little time with a >file... > >neal > >======= >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Z-figure (Corvair) > > >I think we've had a little data dropout. What I'm asking about is a way >to physically tie the 2 handles together so that the 2 switches must be >operated together. The idea being to eliminate a single point of >failure while still implementing the 1 switch philosophy from WW. Aha! But of course. Neal's suggestion works. I've not seen those as a catalog item but they're not hard to make. Some aluminum bar stock, drills, taps, set screws, and some sculpting on the sander would work good. I think I would sand some flats on the switch handles for the set screws to grip and run screws in from both sides . . . not unlike http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Tech_Tips/FlapSwitch/FlapSw2.jpg Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:15 PM PST US From: DCS317@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: What single failure of installed equipment prompts me to change to Z14... Bob, Sorry I sent two nearly identical posts earlier--I thought the first didn't go through. You had asked: "Have you had an experience that prompts you to make this change? Recall that hundreds and perhaps thousands of expensive GA aircraft are boring holes in lots of clouds with Z12 installed . . . and even if Z12 were NOT installed, they'd still be poking holes. Are you planning on having independent, IFR capable instrumentation installed on both pilot locations? That was the original idea behind Z-14. If not, what single failure of installed equipment prompts you to believe that Z14 is more likely to get you on the ground than Z12?" 1. I fly out of Seattle, and we have a lot of IFR days (some when the ice is just too daunting to leave the ground!). In August, on the way out of Puget Sound in IFR soup to VFR conditions east of the Cascades, I had no problems with my dual Cheltons. On the way back a week later in VFR conditions, I had a brownout of the Cheltons (first and only time in 235 hours). They began to reset in seconds, but took the usual two minutes to boot-up. I don't have a clue as to why the brownout. Prior to this flight I had sitting on my workbench a GRT Sport EFIS as a backup to the Cheltons and a Garmin GNS430W (both to be installed this Fall). I already have SL30, electric T&B and electric AH. I'm totally electric with the current Z12 (34 Ah Concorde AX35 battery). With the new gear and Z14 , I thought I'd put the Cheltons on one bus and the 430W and GRT Sport EFIS on the other bus using two Odyssey PC 680's--same weight as the one Concorde, and together same 34Ah, plus easier to replace in the boondocks. 2. A plus for the Z14 is the extra battery for starting (with the crossover) in my IO-540 RV-8), but again similar Ah (one Concorde to two PC680's). 3. Just add a brownout battery to the Z12? Point me to your brownout battery diagram--I couldn't find it on your site. I've ordered your loadmeter to indicate loads on my Z12 alternators (or future Z14). Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated--I'm here to learn! Many thanks, Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.