AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Thu 09/03/09


Total Messages Posted: 32



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:56 AM - Re: Alternator connections (Jay Hyde)
     2. 04:14 AM - Re: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe (Bob Collins)
     3. 05:26 AM - Re: Compass interference protection (Neil Clayton)
     4. 05:49 AM - Re: Compass interference protection (Bob Borger)
     5. 05:49 AM - Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? ()
     6. 06:17 AM - Re: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 06:17 AM - Re: Compass interference protection (Bob Borger)
     8. 06:26 AM - Re: Alternator connections (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 06:48 AM - Re: New Z-figure (Corvair) (Richard Girard)
    10. 06:52 AM - Re: Alternator connections (Ian)
    11. 07:24 AM - Re: Alternator choices ()
    12. 07:59 AM - Re: Alternator choices (Colm O'Reilly)
    13. 08:00 AM - 200 ohm pullup (Mark R. Supinski)
    14. 08:40 AM - Re: 200 ohm pullup (Bob White)
    15. 08:54 AM - Re: What single failure of installed equipment prompts me to change to Z14... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    16. 09:10 AM - Re: Alternator choices ()
    17. 09:10 AM - compass interference (CardinalNSB@aol.com)
    18. 09:17 AM - Re: Alternator choices (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    19. 09:24 AM - Re: wiring diagram (James Robinson)
    20. 09:25 AM - Re: 200 ohm pullup (Bob White)
    21. 11:23 AM - Re: Alternator choices (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    22. 11:40 AM - Re: B&C Dimmer DIM30-14 (Angier M.Ames)
    23. 11:41 AM - Re: B&C Dimmer DIM30-14 (Angier M.Ames)
    24. 01:03 PM - Re: Re: B&C Dimmer DIM30-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    25. 02:57 PM - Fried Master Wires (Ron Patterson)
    26. 03:44 PM - Re: Fried Master Wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    27. 04:21 PM - Schematic for OVM-28 ()
    28. 05:38 PM - Battery charge voltage (B Tomm)
    29. 06:08 PM - Re: Battery charge voltage (David LLoyd)
    30. 08:31 PM - 505-1 PM/OV filter and OV protection kit from B&C (lwinger)
    31. 11:08 PM - Re: Voltage Drop / amp ????? (jimysymonds)
    32. 11:13 PM - Re: Schematic for OVM-28 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:56:48 AM PST US
    From: "Jay Hyde" <jay@horriblehyde.com>
    Subject: Alternator connections
    Thanks Bob, I tried that and it gave me a few clues but I am not sure what the lester number is. I tried all of the numbers on the nameplate and came up with a few hits but none that worked. Trouble with specifying the make model etc is that it is a motorbike engine and they don't list those. So, back to basics, there are 4 terminals, and a small diagram that indicate that 2 of them are 'IG' and 'L'. From looking at some of the alternator diagrams at the link you gave I found that there are the following possible connections, Ignition, Light and Sense. This is where I get stuck, I am expecting Field and Earth/ Ground. What is Ignition and Sense for- or how should they be used? And how is the Light circuit wired? My idea of a light warning circuit is that one side of the light is connected (via a switch, etc) to the battery positive terminal and the other side to the 12-14V out from the alternator. If either the battery voltage or the alternator voltage drops the light goes on? The Ignition cct is sort of the field winding in that it requires 12V in? Have no idea what the Sense cct might be; any ideas? Thanks Jay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 02 September 2009 05:12 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator connections At 08:30 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: Hi there, I am trying to connect a Nippon Denso alternator into a Z scheme and am confused as to the connections. There are 4 small pins in a plastic housing and it is these whose function/ connection I cannot deduce. To me there should be only 1 or 2 pins for positive and negative of the field, or just positive. The photo (although blurred) shows the pin arrangement of two pairs of pins separated by a plastic shield. Can anyone cast any light on how to connect these? Thanks Jay What's the part number or better yet, the Lester number of your particular alternator. You can get a pinout at: http://www.quality-built.com/catalog.htm Enter make, model of car that the alternator is used on or . . . go to the "Cross Reference" tab of the above link and enter the OEM or Lester number. Step though the various photo views of the particular alternator and I think you'll find that one of the photos is a pinout diagram. Having said that, you probably wont find a connection to your alternator's field terminals. The vast majority of alternators in the automotive wild have built in regulators. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:14:54 AM PST US
    From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
    Subject: RE: Shielded wire for wingtip strobe
    //PS: Recall one of the axioms of building: "That which you leave out cannot cause you problems later on." Heh heh. You know, though, that's not a very good axiom. (g)


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:26:29 AM PST US
    From: Neil Clayton <harvey4@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Compass interference protection
    Where would one lay hands on a quantity of Mu=metal. A/S want $4.45 an INCH! Thanks Neil At 11:43 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: >Is there any better (generally available) material to wrap around >the magnetic compass to shield it from interference, that's better >than MuMetal? Thanks Skip > >---------- >


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:49:21 AM PST US
    From: Bob Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: Compass interference protection
    Neil, Just do a Google search on "mu metal" and you will find a lot of sources. Not sure any will be cheep as Nickel isn't a cheep metal. Bob Borger On Thursday, September 03, 2009, at 07:07AM, "Neil Clayton" <harvey4@earthlink.net> wrote: >


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:49:54 AM PST US
    From: <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal?
    9/03/2009 Hello Eric, Your proposal (see below) is not entirely clear to me. So you fold the copper strap only 90 degrees in the middle? Then you insert one leg of the angle through the slot in the firewall and place that leg along the stainless steel firewall and drill through both? Then place the battery ground bolt through that hole to connect the lug on the battery ground wire to the copper strip and the firewall? Then use the copper strap leg that is at 90 degrees to the firewall to connect things for grounding on the other side of the firewall through a previously drilled hole in the copper strap? Sounds good, but don't expect that the stainless steel of the firewall will provide a good reliable ground in other locations because of a non conducting film that tends to build up on the surface of the stainless steel. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." =============================== Time: 06:44:26 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal? From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> Since you want ground termination on both sides of the firewall, you can do approximately the following: Take a 2X long copper strap, fold it in the middle and insert it through a slot in the firewall (or around the edge). Then drill a battery ground bolt hole through both layers and the firewall too. The bolt hole is better if it is closer to the fold, but this is a fine detail. Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:17:21 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Why Brass Bolt for ground terminal?
    > >Sounds good, but don't expect that the stainless steel of the >firewall will provide a good reliable ground in other locations >because of a non conducting film that tends to build up on the >surface of the stainless steel. In the best of all ELECTRICAL worlds, we don't worry about high quality electrical bonding to the firewall. The goal of optimum ground system is to avoid using the firewall sheet (or engine mounts) for any electrical purpose. The diagrams suggested in Z-15 go toward those goals and suggest that for metal airplanes, it's no REALLY big deal to ground strobes, nav lights, and a few odd accessories locally. What Eric is suggesting is a 'lamination' of the firewall sheet between the folds of a copper strap that is fastened to the firewall with one fat bolt for battery and crankcase grounds . . . and spreading the other grounds out over the outside surface of the U-shaped copper strap by what ever means is most attractive. If everything grounded to this construct, then it wouldn't matter if the copper were well bonded to the stainless. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:17:21 AM PST US
    From: Bob Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: Compass interference protection
    Neil, Just checked McMaster-Carr. They have it in foil form. Thickness 0.002, 0.004, 0.006 & 0.010 (inch), with or without adhesive backing, widths 4 in or 15 in. Sold by the foot. Prices range from $0.97/in to $6.92/in depending on thickness, width & backing. http://www.mcmaster.com/#mu-metal-foil/=3gxg6w Bob http://www.mcmaster.com/#mu-metal-foil/=3gxg6w On Thursday, September 03, 2009, at 07:07AM, "Neil Clayton" <harvey4@earthlink.net> wrote: >


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:26:32 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Alternator connections
    At 05:54 AM 9/3/2009, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, > > >So, back to basics, there are 4 terminals, and a small diagram that >indicate that 2 of them are 'IG' and 'L'. >From looking at some of >the alternator diagrams at the link you gave I found that there are >the following possible connections, Ignition, Light and Sense. This >is where I get stuck, I am expecting Field and Earth/ Ground. Well, if they are marked, then you wouldn't get any different information from the catalogs that only go telling you what the labels are. IG is the alternator ON-OFF control lead and is the lead depicted on http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z24-Interim.pdf for controlling the alternator. I note that there is an error on that drawing that calls the input terminal "F" when indeed, it is "IGN". "L" is for a warning light that can be ignored. The best guess for "sense" is that it's a voltage control input lead for the regulator. > >What is Ignition and Sense for- or how should they be used? And how >is the Light circuit wired? My idea of a light warning circuit is >that one side of the light is connected (via a switch, etc) to the >battery positive terminal and the other side to the 12-14V out from >the alternator. If either the battery voltage or the alternator >voltage drops the light goes on? > >The Ignition cct is sort of the field winding in that it requires 12V in? >Have no idea what the Sense cct might be; any ideas? If it's off a motorcycle, get the wiring diagram for the motorcycle and duplicate that. Otherwise, consider disassembling the alternator to remove the built in regulator and bring the field leads out so you can use an external regulator. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:48:03 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: New Z-figure (Corvair)
    From: Richard Girard <jindoguy@gmail.com>
    Ray, If you're talking about the flip up covers over the toggle switches, they can be had at your local auto parts store. At least in red. About $5 each at O'Rielly's. Rick Girard On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:47 PM, ray <raymondj@frontiernet.net> wrote: > > Given that both sides of the discussion have merit, does any know if they > still make the blocks that clamp over a pair of toggle switches. Much of the > stock video footage of missile launches and control rooms show someone > flipping one. They usually had yellow and black diagonal stripes. > > Is there a modern equivalent To that type of setup. > > Thanks, > Raymond Julian > > do not archive > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> >>> Bob, >>> >>> Is there a reason why you are using a single ignition switch, with a >>> single point of failure, for the dual ignition? >>> >>> Roger >>> >> >> Yup, that's a William Wynn design philosophy described >> in Chapter 5 of his installation documentation: >> >> * http://tinyurl.com/nd42op* >> >> I would have opted for a pair of independent switches >> but his rationale for the single switch is well >> articulated. I did expand to 4-poles so that I could >> protect each power lead on it's own fuse. Getting into >> a one versus two switch argument wasn't going to be >> very productive. >> >> Of course, any builder could split to a pair of >> switches at their own choosing. This Z-figure offers >> an "AeroElectric Connection" style power distribution >> diagram that assists his builders in crafting an installation >> consistent with his well thought out design goals. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> --------------------------------------- >> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) >> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) >> ( appearance of being right . . . ) >> ( ) >> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) >> --------------------------------------- >> >> * >> >> >> * >> > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:52:25 AM PST US
    Subject: Alternator connections
    From: Ian <ixb@videotron.ca>
    On my Nippon Denso internally regulated alternator, there are essentially four connectors, two of which are in a "T" arrangement. 1. The big battery terminal. 2. The IG terminal which is 12v from the battery through the alternator switch on the panel then to the IG terminal. 3. The L (lamp) switch which is grounded in the alternator when the alternator is not charging. A lamp connected from 12V through the lamp to L would be off in a normally running engine, and on if the alternator was not charging. 4. The ground is through the body of the alternator, and depends on the grounding strap from the engine to the firewall. Ian Brown, Bromont Quebec C-GOHM RV-9A flying On Thu, 2009-09-03 at 12:54 +0200, Jay Hyde wrote: > Thanks Bob, > > > > I tried that and it gave me a few clues but I am not sure what the > lester number is. I tried all of the numbers on the nameplate and > came up with a few hits but none that worked. Trouble with specifying > the make model etc is that it is a motorbike engine and they dont > list those. > > > > So, back to basics, there are 4 terminals, and a small diagram that > indicate that 2 of them are IG and L. >From looking at some of > the alternator diagrams at the link you gave I found that there are > the following possible connections, Ignition, Light and Sense. This > is where I get stuck, I am expecting Field and Earth/ Ground. > > > > What is Ignition and Sense for- or how should they be used? And how > is the Light circuit wired? My idea of a light warning circuit is > that one side of the light is connected (via a switch, etc) to the > battery positive terminal and the other side to the 12-14V out from > the alternator. If either the battery voltage or the alternator > voltage drops the light goes on? > > > > The Ignition cct is sort of the field winding in that it requires 12V > in? > > Have no idea what the Sense cct might be; any ideas? > > > > Thanks > > Jay > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: 02 September 2009 05:12 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator connections > > > > > > At 08:30 AM 9/2/2009, you wrote: > > > > Hi there, > > I am trying to connect a Nippon Denso alternator into a Z scheme and > am confused as to the connections. There are 4 small pins in a > plastic housing and it is these whose function/ connection I cannot > deduce. To me there should be only 1 or 2 pins for positive and > negative of the field, or just positive. The photo (although blurred) > shows the pin arrangement of two pairs of pins separated by a plastic > shield. Can anyone cast any light on how to connect these? > > Thanks > > Jay > > > What's the part number or better yet, the Lester number > of your particular alternator. You can get a pinout > at: > > http://www.quality-built.com/catalog.htm > > Enter make, model of car that the alternator is used > on or . . . > > go to the "Cross Reference" tab of the above > link and enter the OEM or Lester number. > Step though the various photo views of the > particular alternator and I think you'll find > that one of the photos is a pinout diagram. > > Having said that, you probably wont find a > connection to your alternator's field terminals. > The vast majority of alternators in the automotive > wild have built in regulators. > > > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:24:10 AM PST US
    Subject: Alternator choices
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    Colm, Ha ha - Ok, you really want start a forum row? No worries, there are miles of discussion about internal/external alt's on the forum. Do some searching first and I think you'll find a lot of what you need. There are a lot of depends on that subject, but I think most would recommend you buy the right piece of equipment for the job rather than bastardize a cheaper (ala Pep Boys) internal unit. If you want to save a few bucks just use the internal job and add an alt contactor to your firewall. That's exactly what I did and I have no regrets. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Colm O'Reilly Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:38 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator choices <colm.oreilly@gmail.com> Is it straightforward / recommended to modify an internally regulated alternator to be externally regulated or should I opt to buy an externally regulated model and not attempt to modify ? What kind of pitfalls should I expect or have been experienced IRL (In Real Life) ? I ask this because almost all of the alternators I have seen for sale are internally regulated, even from aircraft / aero engine shops. Thanks in advance, Colm O'Reilly


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:59:38 AM PST US
    From: "Colm O'Reilly" <colm.oreilly@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator choices
    Thanks Glenn, I realized this was an area of some contention, so I've donned my nomex underwear. I am sold on the merits of external regulation, and given Bob's excellent recent article (or i read it in the 'connection ) on re- built alternators and quality not really being brand specific, I'd like to know if it is just a matter of 'removing' the internal regulator and connecting an external unit or if there is some other mysterious difference between an alternator built for internal regulation Vs one built for external regulation. Colm On Sep 3, 2009, at 10:22, <longg@pjm.com> wrote: > > Colm, > > Ha ha - Ok, you really want start a forum row? No worries, there are > miles of discussion about internal/external alt's on the forum. Do > some > searching first and I think you'll find a lot of what you need. > > There are a lot of depends on that subject, but I think most would > recommend you buy the right piece of equipment for the job rather than > bastardize a cheaper (ala Pep Boys) internal unit. If you want to > save a > few bucks just use the internal job and add an alt contactor to your > firewall. That's exactly what I did and I have no regrets. > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Colm > O'Reilly > Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:38 PM > To: Aero Electric List > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator choices > > <colm.oreilly@gmail.com> > > Is it straightforward / recommended to modify an internally regulated > alternator to be externally regulated or should I opt to buy an > externally regulated model and not attempt to modify ? What kind of > pitfalls should I expect or have been experienced IRL (In Real Life) ? > > I ask this because almost all of the alternators I have seen for sale > are internally regulated, even from aircraft / aero engine shops. > > Thanks in advance, > > Colm O'Reilly > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:00:25 AM PST US
    Subject: 200 ohm pullup
    From: "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
    Hi everyone- I'm trying to wire my fuel level sender to the device that displays the level. I have a simple float-based fuel level sender with 180-degree sweep & 40-240 ohm resistance. There is a single terminal post at the back of the sender to hook it up to a display. I am told that I need a 200ohm pullup to connect it to the device. The fuel sender input for the device is +5v. I've trolled the web to find out what a pullup is. What I haven't found is whether I can buy a discrete IC to use for this purpose, or if I need to breadboard something. Also, I presume I will need some sort of component to take +12 bus voltage and step it down to +5v as the input to the pullup. Is there an easy way to accomplish this (where easy = go to radio shack & buy X) or do I have to build something to accomplish it. Thanks, Mark


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:40:05 AM PST US
    From: Bob White <bob@bob-white.com>
    Subject: Re: 200 ohm pullup
    Hi Mark, The 200 ohm pull up is just a resistor. There is a 5 volt source from your EC2 that can be used to power it. Pin 11, which may also be connected to your air input temp sensor depending on how old the unit is. Bob W. On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 08:58:19 -0600 "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi everyone- > > I'm trying to wire my fuel level sender to the device that displays the > level. I have a simple float-based fuel level sender with 180-degree sweep > & 40-240 ohm resistance. There is a single terminal post at the back of the > sender to hook it up to a display. I am told that I need a 200ohm pullup to > connect it to the device. The fuel sender input for the device is +5v. > > I've trolled the web to find out what a pullup is. What I haven't found is > whether I can buy a discrete IC to use for this purpose, or if I need to > breadboard something. Also, I presume I will need some sort of component to > take +12 bus voltage and step it down to +5v as the input to the pullup. > > Is there an easy way to accomplish this (where easy = go to radio shack & > buy X) or do I have to build something to accomplish it. > > Thanks, > > Mark > -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:54:26 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: What single failure of installed equipment prompts
    me to change to Z14... >1. In August, on the way out of Puget Sound in IFR soup to VFR >conditions east of the Cascades, I had no problems with my dual >Cheltons. On the way back a week later in VFR conditions, I had a >brownout of the Cheltons (first and only time in 235 hours). They >began to reset in seconds, but took the usual two minutes to >boot-up. I don't have a clue as to why the brownout. If you have Z-12 installed, then there is no 'good' reason for a brownout. If the main alternator had sagged, the standby alternator should have picked up as much load as it could shoulder and the "ALTERNATOR LOADED" light should have flashed at you. If BOTH alternators had crapped, then the low voltage warning light should have come on and your WELL MAINTAINED RG battery should have picked up the load thus preventing a brown out. >Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated--I'm here to learn! You need to identify the reason for the brown-out you experienced. Adding in more "stuff" to craft dual electrical systems may well avoid duplicating the problem in the second system . . . but the first problem may be lurking in the first. What you've described is mystifying and does not make sense in the context of the mini-FMEA we went through above. The system you have is exceedingly robust. A demonstrated lack of robustness is an design/installation/maintenance issue, not a lack of equipment. As an interim prophylactic against an unhappy event, power one of the Cheltons from your battery bus. If it doesn't have a built in power switch, hang a temporary switch under the panel on a bracket or some such band-aid. There's something seriously amiss with what you presently have installed. If the brown-out was so short in duration that you didn't notice any warning lights, then loose connections come to mind. Also, one of your Cheltons should be on an E-bus and the other on the main bus. This would automatically give you the "trouble shooting" fix by flying with the e-bus alternate feed switch ON. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 16


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    Time: 09:10:28 AM PST US
    Subject: Alternator choices
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    Right, Ok, yes for the operation there certainly manufacturer differences and you'll need to be familiar with how the unit is put together. Some will argue but alternators like starters are one of the big rip-offs in industry. Most are rebuilt for mere pennies against their actual cost which makes selling rebuilt units a rather lucrative business. Rebuilt units are quickly corrected because of the commonality of failures they incur. Brushes, contacts, bearings commonly fail and need only be replaced to create a like new unit to go. I've rebuilt the starter in my truck twice for about $10.00 each time. After 300k I've still got the same starter. Think about it, how often do the windings fail on a alternator? Uh, almost never. Once you get past the core and windings it's just little stuff. I've not done what you request but what I would do is find a couple of junk alternators and take them apart, take out the regulator, hook them up to a test harness and see what happens. Even easier, watch this video and they'll walk you through the process. Looks like the regulator is commonly on the end or outside, so it's a breeze. http://www.ehow.com/video_4936005_remove-voltage-regulator-from-alternat or.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Colm O'Reilly Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator choices <colm.oreilly@gmail.com> Thanks Glenn, I realized this was an area of some contention, so I've donned my nomex underwear. I am sold on the merits of external regulation, and given Bob's excellent recent article (or i read it in the 'connection ) on re- built alternators and quality not really being brand specific, I'd like to know if it is just a matter of 'removing' the internal regulator and connecting an external unit or if there is some other mysterious difference between an alternator built for internal regulation Vs one built for external regulation. Colm On Sep 3, 2009, at 10:22, <longg@pjm.com> wrote: > > Colm, > > Ha ha - Ok, you really want start a forum row? No worries, there are > miles of discussion about internal/external alt's on the forum. Do > some > searching first and I think you'll find a lot of what you need. > > There are a lot of depends on that subject, but I think most would > recommend you buy the right piece of equipment for the job rather than > bastardize a cheaper (ala Pep Boys) internal unit. If you want to > save a > few bucks just use the internal job and add an alt contactor to your > firewall. That's exactly what I did and I have no regrets. > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Colm > O'Reilly > Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:38 PM > To: Aero Electric List > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator choices > > <colm.oreilly@gmail.com> > > Is it straightforward / recommended to modify an internally regulated > alternator to be externally regulated or should I opt to buy an > externally regulated model and not attempt to modify ? What kind of > pitfalls should I expect or have been experienced IRL (In Real Life) ? > > I ask this because almost all of the alternators I have seen for sale > are internally regulated, even from aircraft / aero engine shops. > > Thanks in advance, > > Colm O'Reilly > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 09:10:33 AM PST US
    From: CardinalNSB@aol.com
    Subject: compass interference
    Thanks for the replies on the issue, I hadn't thought through that all magnetic stuff is related. (There was an excellent show on the Science channel recently with "lifelike" images of the iron plumes and magnetic fields in the core, its a swirling mass of magnetic/electrical generation, not a single solid "inner core" like they said in elementary school). I see on other groups that some say the Pegasus compass is more resistant to interference, can someone explain that to me? I want to mount my magnetic compass out of the line of sight, preferable in the dash like any other instrument. I will go ahead and do that and do the experiment as Bob suggested with my old Airpath for now. Thanks, Skip


    Message 18


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    Time: 09:17:20 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator choices
    At 09:56 AM 9/3/2009, you wrote: ><colm.oreilly@gmail.com> > >Thanks Glenn, I realized this was an area of some contention, so I've >donned my nomex underwear. > >I am sold on the merits of external regulation, and given Bob's >excellent recent article (or i read it in the 'connection ) on re- >built alternators and quality not really being brand specific, I'd >like to know if it is just a matter of 'removing' the internal >regulator and connecting an external unit or if there is some other >mysterious difference between an alternator built for internal >regulation Vs one built for external regulation. Nope, just take it out and bring out the field leads . . . or ground one of the field leads internally . . . If there has ever been any "contention" in the past it was totally fabricated by individuals with design goals inconsistent with legacy goals from our 100 yrs experience with TC aviation and/or AeroElectric Connection design goals for failure tolerant design. There has never been an attempt to persuade anyone that any particular alternator brand or configuration is unsuitable to the task on an OBAM aircraft. I'll suggest that readers of the List review the revised chapter on Alternators from the book which is currently available for free at: http://aeroelectric.com/R12A/03_Alternator_12A1.pdf In these pages you will find an updated version of the simple-ideas that have been promoted here on the List and in the book since day-one. (1) independent, any time, on-off, any conditions control of the alternator(s). (2) independent, automatic, lightning fast management of an OV event . . . NOBODY's regulators are 10 to the minus gee whiz failure rates. In years past, the path to Nirvana for these design goals was widest if you had an externally regulated alternator. In recent times, clever folks like Plane-Power have MODIFIED contemporary automotive designs to achieve the above stated design goals . . . and you can do it too. It's not difficult. And even if you screw it up the first, second or third times, you'll eventually get it right. Further, if your system is truly failure tolerant, the first, second or third events will be significant only because they are milestones in your learning process. Finally, with respect to saluting the flags of any particular brand name or model, I hope that the description of my trip to MPA/MPM facilities last fall will encourage builders to pick an alternator that best fits their project mechanically and for performance (output current) and purchase that item either new (from about anybody) or re-man (from a facility on the class of MPA/MPM). Anything else to be said on this topic must have roots in alternative design goals (which anyone is free to embrace) or superstition and faith borne out of ignorance. There are lots of folks here on the list ready to counsel the unsure or insecure. How may we be of service? Bob . . .


    Message 19


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    Time: 09:24:43 AM PST US
    From: James Robinson <jbr79r@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: wiring diagram
    Yes it has been a long while. Probably because my electrical system has been bullet proof. I see you moved. I hope you are enjoying your new location. Thanks again for all you do!!!! Jim James Robinson Glasair lll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 ________________________________ From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 6:34:02 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wiring diagram At 08:00 PM 9/1/2009, you wrote: > Bob > Is there a link to your wiring diagrams? Particularly the 2 alts 2 battery all electric airplane. I can't locate mine. I probably put it where I would be sure to find it HA HA ;-) > > James Robinson Good morning Jim. Haven't talked with you in quite some time. All of my drawings are on the website. The whole package is at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ . . . the drawing you're asking about is probably this one . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N2.pdf Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------


    Message 20


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    Time: 09:25:51 AM PST US
    From: Bob White <bob@bob-white.com>
    Subject: Re: 200 ohm pullup
    Scratch the comment about the EC2. The 5 V source is pins 11 or 24 on P2 of the EM2, or if you have an EM3, TB1-12 or TB4-16. Connect the resistor between 5V and the level sender. Connect that junction to the input. Max power dissipation in the resistor will be less than 1/8 watt, so a 1/4 or 1/2 watt resistor will be OK. Don't expect it to be real linear. Bob W. On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:34:21 -0600 Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > The 200 ohm pull up is just a resistor. There is a 5 volt source from > your EC2 that can be used to power it. Pin 11, which may also be > connected to your air input temp sensor depending on how old the unit > is. > > Bob W. > > On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 08:58:19 -0600 > "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi everyone- > > > > I'm trying to wire my fuel level sender to the device that displays the > > level. I have a simple float-based fuel level sender with 180-degree sweep > > & 40-240 ohm resistance. There is a single terminal post at the back of the > > sender to hook it up to a display. I am told that I need a 200ohm pullup to > > connect it to the device. The fuel sender input for the device is +5v. > > > > I've trolled the web to find out what a pullup is. What I haven't found is > > whether I can buy a discrete IC to use for this purpose, or if I need to > > breadboard something. Also, I presume I will need some sort of component to > > take +12 bus voltage and step it down to +5v as the input to the pullup. > > > > Is there an easy way to accomplish this (where easy = go to radio shack & > > buy X) or do I have to build something to accomplish it. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark > > > > -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/


    Message 21


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    Time: 11:23:58 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Alternator choices
    At 10:59 AM 9/3/2009, you wrote: > >Right, > > Ok, yes for the operation there certainly manufacturer >differences and you'll need to be familiar with how the unit is put >together. Some will argue but alternators like starters are one of the >big rip-offs in industry. Most are rebuilt for mere pennies against >their actual cost which makes selling rebuilt units a rather lucrative >business. Sure . . . since re-man operations purchase cores at scrap metal prices, they're getting complex castings, field rings and rotors with a very low investment. The BIG cost of a rebuild is labor . . . which is why operations like MPA/MPM are successful in the market . . . I think the average in-the-door/out-the-door, hands-on labor averaged 45 minutes per article. > Rebuilt units are quickly corrected because of the commonality >of failures they incur. Brushes, contacts, bearings commonly fail and >need only be replaced to create a like new unit to go. Unless you tear the incoming part down to nearly individual parts, clean and inspect with go/no-go gages, turn the slip rings, chase the threads, and re-assemble with all new wearing parts, new or re-plated hardware, etc. This is the difference between a re-man and repair operation. <snip> >Even easier, watch this video and they'll walk you through the process. >Looks like the regulator is commonly on the end or outside, so it's a >breeze. > >http://www.ehow.com/video_4936005_remove-voltage-regulator-from-alternat >or.html This is not typical of the alternators I've worked with the most. Removal of the voltage regulator usually involves splitting the case and studying the manner in which internal electronics and brush holders are interconnected. Further, most alternators have one of the two brushes connected to the b-lead terminal. This needs to be rewired to take the brush to ground. The other brush connection needs to come out for attachment to the regulator. Be wary of trying to "salvage" the existing fast-on tabs for bringing your new field wires out. The alloy from which those tabs are made may be very hard to solder to. I'd recommend that your first mod simply bring the brush leads out on wires to be properly connected externally. It's not 'hard' . . . the pitfall are more mechanical than electrical. Bob . . .


    Message 22


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    Time: 11:40:55 AM PST US
    From: "Angier M.Ames" <N4ZQ@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: B&C Dimmer DIM30-14
    Greetings, The answer to this question may be obvious to all but me but here goes. The wiring diagram included with 9013-704E dated 09/10/02 shows output to 5 lights on pins 5,9,7,6,&4. I have 6 instruments from United Instrument with the typical internal lighting on the top plus an AirPegasus compass. Is there any compelling reason not to double up two lights on a single dimmer pin? Thanks, Angier Ames N4ZQ


    Message 23


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    Time: 11:41:07 AM PST US
    From: "Angier M.Ames" <N4ZQ@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: B&C Dimmer DIM30-14
    Greetings, The answer to this question may be obvious to all but me but here goes. The wiring diagram included with 9013-704E dated 09/10/02 shows output to 5 lights on pins 5,9,7,6,&4. I have 6 instruments from United Instrument with the typical internal lighting on the top plus an AirPegasus compass. Is there any compelling reason not to double up two lights on a single dimmer pin? Thanks, Angier Ames N4ZQ


    Message 24


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    Time: 01:03:35 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: B&C Dimmer DIM30-14
    At 01:28 PM 9/3/2009, you wrote: > >Greetings, > >The answer to this question may be obvious to all but me but here goes. >The wiring diagram included with 9013-704E dated 09/10/02 shows output >to 5 lights on pins 5,9,7,6,&4. >I have 6 instruments from United Instrument with the typical internal >lighting on the top plus an AirPegasus compass. >Is there any compelling reason not to double up two lights on a single >dimmer pin? Not a problem. Bob K0DYH


    Message 25


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    Time: 02:57:36 PM PST US
    From: Ron Patterson <scc_ron@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Fried Master Wires
    This is another example of how adding a ground - ---power jack (with ov and reverse polarity protection) - ---would have proved useful. I'm pleased that the - ---outcome of your experience was so benign . . . it - ---could have been much worse. - ---I'm mystified about the microphone jack. What - ---kind of voltage regulator does your airplane have? - ---If it's a built in regulator and it shifted in - ---regulation set point as a consequence of this - ---event, then it HAS been affected and is now suspect. - - - - Bob . . . Thanks Bob for helping me understan what happened and why with my starting system. To answer your question, I have a new ND alternator off a forklift (35 amp) with internal regulator and "supposed" to have internal over volta ge protection....can't swear to that, but that is what got me to purchase i t over the 45 amp suzuki one that others have used. - Question. Will my new Odessey battery slowly discharge because the voltage output at 13.9 is now at least 0.3 volts lower than the 14.2 that the liter ature says one needs to charge it properly? - Ron=0A=0A=0A


    Message 26


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    Time: 03:44:32 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Fried Master Wires
    >Thanks Bob for helping me understan what happened and why with my >starting system. To answer your question, I have a new ND alternator >off a forklift (35 amp) with internal regulator and "supposed" to >have internal over voltage protection....can't swear to that, but >that is what got me to purchase it over the 45 amp suzuki one that >others have used. I can tell you with great confidence that there is NO internally regulated alternator that features more than an OV WARNING. Further, NONE have independent, OV PROTECTION that is part and parcel of legacy design goals for aircraft. > >Question. Will my new Odessey battery slowly discharge because the >voltage output at 13.9 is now at least 0.3 volts lower than the 14.2 >that the literature says one needs to charge it properly? It will be prevented from achieving 100% state of charge after cranking the engine for each flight. It will probably perform as expected in terms of getting an engine started but its energy content as a standby power source will be degraded to some extent. If you take LONG flights, it WILL get to full charge at 13.9 but looking at my own log shows that average flight cycle times are on the order of 1 hour. So the battery won't "slowly discharge" it just wont get fully charged on short flights. Bob . . .


    Message 27


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    Time: 04:21:02 PM PST US
    From: <berkut13@berkut13.com>
    Subject: Schematic for OVM-28
    B&C has discontinued the OVM14 and 28 units completely with no plans to continue them. I have a need for several more and I am not interested in the large block variety OV solution they are selling now. The original was ideal for my usage and the larger form factor presents un-necessary problems. Does someone have the schematic and component list for those units. To get what I want, I am not above building my own. ;-) Thanks, James Redmon Berkut/Race 13 www.berkut13.com


    Message 28


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    Time: 05:38:53 PM PST US
    From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
    Subject: Battery charge voltage
    Bob, My RV7A is not flying yet but after much reading here over the years I decided I was confident to make my own battery solution for my Yamaha personal watercraft. Since I only use the boat for one week of the year, it doesn't make sense for me to keep a "manufacturer's recommended battery" in it all year due to the cost. It seemed to need a new one every couple years even though I kept it on a maintainer during the other 51 weeks. Background: Original OEM battery was 12V Champion 16CL-B flooded lead/acid motorcycle battery Engine is 155HP 2-cycle Yamaha Battery was always left in the boat and on a batt maintainer during off season, This year I bought a no-name RGB 17AH battery and it cranked/started the engine just fine. I made a voltage measurement with the engine running a various RPM and found that the charging voltage (with battery connected) ranged from 13.0 to 13.4 volts. Am I correct to conclude that with this arrangement, while good enough to start the engine, it will never get fully charged up? I would expect to see 14+ volts to charge the OEM flooded battery. Could this be why that OEM battery never seemed to last more than a couple years even though it was on a charger 95% of the time? What, if any, difference is there between the recommended charge voltage for these two batteries? This is relevant to my future RV because it too will likely be put away for long periods during the off season. I don't know yet whether I will use a flooded or RGB battery. Bevan RV7A wiring


    Message 29


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    Time: 06:08:10 PM PST US
    From: "David LLoyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Battery charge voltage
    Bevan, My own personal findings are that a "maintainer" set to about 13.1 to 13.2 is about right to handle new and old flooded batteries. If you push it higher, the older batt's with a little bit of sulphation and other cranky aging, may gas too much when taking in more than 13.2. A new batt. with no internal deteration handles tad bit more voltage without gassing. In the normal use airplane world, we use our birds too little. This is hard on lead/acid batts. Usual life is about 2-3 years. I have have had as much as 7 years life when keeping on a tuned up maintainer. Even after 7 years I replace the batt. just to keep the worry factor at bay. What I mean by a "tuned up" unit. I have found that more than 50% of the maintainers are not set correctly during manuf. To many are set to higher voltage. Most of them have 1 or 2 pots inside the case that can be tuned to the best float voltage. Many are a pain to take apart in their potted cases. Be sure to check the float voltage on any maintainer about 24 hrs. after connection to the batt. with an accurate digital DVM or similar. Again, my personal high setting is 13.2 v. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 5:35 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charge voltage > > > Bob, > > My RV7A is not flying yet but after much reading here over the years I > decided I was confident to make my own battery solution for my Yamaha > personal watercraft. Since I only use the boat for one week of the year, > it > doesn't make sense for me to keep a "manufacturer's recommended battery" > in > it all year due to the cost. It seemed to need a new one every couple > years > even though I kept it on a maintainer during the other 51 weeks. > > Background: > > Original OEM battery was 12V Champion 16CL-B flooded lead/acid motorcycle > battery > Engine is 155HP 2-cycle Yamaha > Battery was always left in the boat and on a batt maintainer during off > season, > > This year I bought a no-name RGB 17AH battery and it cranked/started the > engine just fine. > > I made a voltage measurement with the engine running a various RPM and > found > that the charging voltage (with battery connected) ranged from 13.0 to > 13.4 > volts. > > Am I correct to conclude that with this arrangement, while good enough to > start the engine, it will never get fully charged up? I would expect to > see > 14+ volts to charge the OEM flooded battery. Could this be why that OEM > battery never seemed to last more than a couple years even though it was > on > a charger 95% of the time? > > What, if any, difference is there between the recommended charge voltage > for > these two batteries? > > This is relevant to my future RV because it too will likely be put away > for > long periods during the off season. I don't know yet whether I will use a > flooded or RGB battery. > > Bevan > RV7A wiring > > >


    Message 30


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    Time: 08:31:24 PM PST US
    Subject: 505-1 PM/OV filter and OV protection kit from B&C
    From: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
    I have an extra, brand-new 505-1 PM/OV filter and OV protection kit from B&C. They sell for $65, but the first person with $45 (plus shipping) can have it. Please contact me off-list at larrywinger@gmail.com. -------- Larry Winger Tustin, CA Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair Fuselage on gear Canopy nearly complete www.mykitlog.com/lwinger Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=261352#261352


    Message 31


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    Time: 11:08:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Voltage Drop / amp ?????
    From: "jimysymonds" <jimysymonds@gmail.com>
    You can play around with the others but if you want to work, the shoes has to be your choice. Did you find this review helpful? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=261366#261366


    Message 32


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    Time: 11:13:23 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Schematic for OVM-28
    At 06:12 PM 9/3/2009, you wrote: > > >B&C has discontinued the OVM14 and 28 units completely with no plans >to continue them. I have a need for several more and I am not >interested in the large block variety OV solution they are selling >now. The original was ideal for my usage and the larger form factor >presents un-necessary problems. > >Does someone have the schematic and component list for those >units. To get what I want, I am not above building my own. Sure. Here's a data package I published on the OVM-series crowbar modules . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/DIY_Crowbar_OVP_F.pdf I've begun the manufacture of the OVM-14 devices . . . and I could do some 28v versions for you. They're not on my website catalog yet. They're $25 each. You can order at https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html and put the quantity you want in the comments box at the bottom. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------




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