---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/14/09: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:15 AM - Filter for Hand held devices (Jay Hyde) 2. 05:29 AM - Re: Filter for Hand held devices (nuckollsr) 3. 05:39 AM - Re: Alternator Noise (nuckollsr) 4. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Filter for Hand held devices (Jay Hyde) 5. 07:17 AM - Re: Fried Master Wires (susanspy) 6. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Noise (Larry Florman) 7. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Noise (Jay Hyde) 8. 10:52 AM - Van's gauges (PeterHunt1@aol.com) 9. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Tachometer Generator Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Noise (Larry Florman) 11. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Noise (Larry Florman) 12. 01:17 PM - Z-13/8 electric components for RV firewall (Lincoln Keill) 13. 03:17 PM - Re: Grounding Lug (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 03:18 PM - Re: Van's gauges (Peter Pengilly) 15. 03:48 PM - Re: Grounding Lug (Richard Girard) 16. 04:22 PM - Wig-Wagging HDI lamps (Eric M. Jones) 17. 04:26 PM - Re: Z-13/8 electric components for RV firewall (Bret Smith) 18. 05:02 PM - Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps (Matt Prather) 19. 05:02 PM - Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps (Matt Prather) 20. 05:23 PM - Re: Van's gauges (Joe Dubner) 21. 05:23 PM - Re: Van's gauges (Neil Clayton) 22. 05:31 PM - Re: Grounding Lug (MLWynn@aol.com) 23. 05:52 PM - Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps (Bob McCallum) 24. 07:13 PM - Re: Grounding Lug (Richard Girard) 25. 07:14 PM - Re: Van's gauges (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 07:47 PM - Re: Grounding Lug (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:57 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Filter for Hand held devices Hi there Bob, In your Aeroelectric Connection book/ manual you provide a circuit diagram for a 'Dual Power Conditioner " (Figure 16.4) where you provide part numbers for the diodes and inductor components. Would you be able to provide specifications for these instead? I tried to search Radio Shack for the inductor part number but had no luck; plus, we have no radio shack in South Africa so I need to be able to get the part by specification.. :-) Thanks Jay ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:58 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Filter for Hand held devices From: "nuckollsr" Are you sure you need the filter? Most modern hand helds supplied with DC power input jacks and automotive cigar lighter power cords are already configured to live in the rough and tumble world of vehicular DC power systems. The discussions on filters and firewalls in the 'Connection are intended to illustrate SOLUTIONS to noise issues should such problems arise. It's not necessary or recommended that such devices be included as an expanded design goal. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262910#262910 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Noise From: "nuckollsr" Keep in mind that perhaps thousands of similar alternator/regulator systems are flying where the builders have reported no problems with noise in their electronics. This strongly suggests that the optimum solution to your problem is to deduce the difference between how your components are installed and wired as compared to other systems flying. Can you describe the your radio/audio system and how you configured the ground system for your electrical and avionics? One of the reasons that filters are becoming difficult to find is because folks who design and manufacture accessories have learned how to make them perform well (tolerate normal and expected noise levels) in vehicular DC power systems. The optimum solution for your problem may well be a change to configuration as opposed to adding the cost, weight and complexity of a filter (which may not fix the problem). Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262911#262911 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:54 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Filter for Hand held devices I think that I do need one; I am using a cigarette lighter type connection to power an Ipod power supply. When I connect this to the Ipod no noise is heard, but when I connect the Ipod to the radio/ intercom system I immediately get a high pitched noise in the earphones. I separated the power and signal leads and the noise stayed. I moved the power supply of the cigarette/ Ipod charger directly to the battery and the noise stayed. I will still try a twisted pair on the power supply to the radio/intercom but it seems to me that the noise is generated by the Ipod charger so I thought that a filter might do the trick. Perhaps even a ferrite bead on the positive in to the radio will work. The only other thing that I can think of is that the loop formed by the plug->Ipod charger->Ipod audio out->radio/intercom is somehow causing the problem; but how does one get rid of that loop- its intrinsic to the music input? So I am going to try all of these out but need the components for the filter to give it a bash as well... -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nuckollsr Sent: 14 September 2009 02:28 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Filter for Hand held devices Are you sure you need the filter? Most modern hand helds supplied with DC power input jacks and automotive cigar lighter power cords are already configured to live in the rough and tumble world of vehicular DC power systems. The discussions on filters and firewalls in the 'Connection are intended to illustrate SOLUTIONS to noise issues should such problems arise. It's not necessary or recommended that such devices be included as an expanded design goal. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262910#262910 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:28 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fried Master Wires From: "susanspy" hello all, i am Susan here, i am fun of this place thanks alot for the great informative post do some more post here. thanks a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262922#262922 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:17 AM PST US From: Larry Florman Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Noise Bob, My SeaRey is so tightly wired tha to troubleshoot woul be a massive event ( i.e. Remove wings, lift engine, drain cooling, etc). I have a Microaire transceiver and transponder, a PS Engineering intercom. I explicitly followed the wiring instruction. The com antenna is mounted on top forward of the engine. Even the panel is an ordeal to deal with. I guess I am looking for a way around my inadequacies. On Sep 14, 2009, at 8:38 AM, "nuckollsr" wrote: Keep in mind that perhaps thousands of similar alternator/regulator systems are flying where the builders have reported no problems with noise in their electronics. This strongly suggests that the optimum solution to your problem is to deduce the difference between how your components are installed and wired as compared to other systems flying. Can you describe the your radio/audio system and how you configured the ground system for your electrical and avionics? One of the reasons that filters are becoming difficult to find is because folks who design and manufacture accessories have learned how to make them perform well (tolerate normal and expected noise levels) in vehicular DC power systems. The optimum solution for your problem may well be a change to configuration as opposed to adding the cost, weight and complexity of a filter (which may not fix the problem). Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262911#262911 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:13 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Noise Do you have a large capacitor between the outgoing positive of the regulator and ground, as suggested on Z-16? Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Florman Sent: 14 September 2009 04:38 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Noise Bob, My SeaRey is so tightly wired tha to troubleshoot woul be a massive event ( i.e. Remove wings, lift engine, drain cooling, etc). I have a Microaire transceiver and transponder, a PS Engineering intercom. I explicitly followed the wiring instruction. The com antenna is mounted on top forward of the engine. Even the panel is an ordeal to deal with. I guess I am looking for a way around my inadequacies. On Sep 14, 2009, at 8:38 AM, "nuckollsr" wrote: Keep in mind that perhaps thousands of similar alternator/regulator systems are flying where the builders have reported no problems with noise in their electronics. This strongly suggests that the optimum solution to your problem is to deduce the difference between how your components are installed and wired as compared to other systems flying. Can you describe the your radio/audio system and how you configured the ground system for your electrical and avionics? One of the reasons that filters are becoming difficult to find is because folks who design and manufacture accessories have learned how to make them perform well (tolerate normal and expected noise levels) in vehicular DC power systems. The optimum solution for your problem may well be a change to configuration as opposed to adding the cost, weight and complexity of a filter (which may not fix the problem). Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262911#262911 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:53 AM PST US From: PeterHunt1@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Van's gauges In 420 house over three plus years a number of Van's gauges have failed (fuel quantity, volts, amps, oil pressure). Now I must install the third volt meter. I like the look of Van's gauges and the fact that they match, but don't like the failure rate. What have your experiences been? Pete in Clearwater RV-6 - Reserve Grand Champion, S 'n F 2006 and other awards ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tachometer Generator Wiring At 03:30 PM 9/13/2009, you wrote: > > >Thanks Bob. I have been told by some other folks that the tach gen >can be a significant source of noise. It is my understanding that >in the original wiring in this aircraft (Yak) the tach gen leads were shielded. > >Craig > I dont' see how . . . These are 3-phase, pm alternators delivering data on a twisted trio of wires . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:58 PM PST US From: Larry Florman Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Noise Yes Sent from my iPhone On Sep 14, 2009, at 11:23 AM, "Jay Hyde" wrote: Do you have a large capacitor between the outgoing positive of the regulator and ground, as suggested on Z-16? Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Florman Sent: 14 September 2009 04:38 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Noise Bob, My SeaRey is so tightly wired tha to troubleshoot woul be a massive event ( i.e. Remove wings, lift engine, drain cooling, etc). I have a Microaire transceiver and transponder, a PS Engineering intercom. I explicitly followed the wiring instruction. The com antenna is mounted on top forward of the engine. Even the panel is an ordeal to deal with. I guess I am looking for a way around my inadequacies. On Sep 14, 2009, at 8:38 AM, "nuckollsr" wrote: Keep in mind that perhaps thousands of similar alternator/regulator systems are flying where the builders have reported no problems with noise in their electronics. This strongly suggests that the optimum solution to your problem is to deduce the difference between how your components are installed and wired as compared to other systems flying. Can you describe the your radio/audio system and how you configured the ground system for your electrical and avionics? One of the reasons that filters are becoming difficult to find is because folks who design and manufacture accessories have learned how to make them perform well (tolerate normal and expected noise levels) in vehicular DC power systems. The optimum solution for your problem may well be a change to configuration as opposed to adding the cost, weight and complexity of a filter (which may not fix the problem). Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262911#262911 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:58 PM PST US From: Larry Florman Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Noise Yep. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 14, 2009, at 11:23 AM, "Jay Hyde" wrote: Do you have a large capacitor between the outgoing positive of the regulator and ground, as suggested on Z-16? Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Florman Sent: 14 September 2009 04:38 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Noise Bob, My SeaRey is so tightly wired tha to troubleshoot woul be a massive event ( i.e. Remove wings, lift engine, drain cooling, etc). I have a Microaire transceiver and transponder, a PS Engineering intercom. I explicitly followed the wiring instruction. The com antenna is mounted on top forward of the engine. Even the panel is an ordeal to deal with. I guess I am looking for a way around my inadequacies. On Sep 14, 2009, at 8:38 AM, "nuckollsr" wrote: Keep in mind that perhaps thousands of similar alternator/regulator systems are flying where the builders have reported no problems with noise in their electronics. This strongly suggests that the optimum solution to your problem is to deduce the difference between how your components are installed and wired as compared to other systems flying. Can you describe the your radio/audio system and how you configured the ground system for your electrical and avionics? One of the reasons that filters are becoming difficult to find is because folks who design and manufacture accessories have learned how to make them perform well (tolerate normal and expected noise levels) in vehicular DC power systems. The optimum solution for your problem may well be a change to configuration as opposed to adding the cost, weight and complexity of a filter (which may not fix the problem). Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262911#262911 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:54 PM PST US From: Lincoln Keill Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 electric components for RV firewall Could an RV-driver with a Z-13/8 system post a link to any pictures/diagram s/descriptions they have of the location of the electrical system component s (battery, contactors, grounding lugs, etc.) on their firewall as well as wire pass-throughs? -I searched under the archive and found information o n throttle/mixture cable location but nothing about where all the electric stuff goes. -Van's suggestion won't work and I'm loathe to start drilling holes until I know for sure where everything is going to go and not interf ere with something else down the road. -Thanks. Lincoln Keill airlincoln@sbcglobal.net RV-7A fuselage Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:16 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Lug At 12:40 AM 9/13/2009, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I am building an RV 8. The battery is rear mounted. I was planning >to ground the battery to the lower longeron that is directly >adjacent. I checked with Vans, who said that four or five rivets no >closer than 1/2 inch apart is fine structurally. > >I had previously primed the longeron, so I carefully scraped that >off and buffed it up with white Scotchbrite. I built a lug of 1/8th >aluminum with a 1/4" nutplate on the bottom, which I also carefully >polished up. The question is, is it okay to just rivet these two >pieces of aluminum together or is there something I should sandwich >in between them to improve the connection? Does the bond need to be >sealed with dielectric grease or some such? What have others done >in this situation? The goals for achieving gas-tightness of the conducting materials are the same for your ground lug as for putting terminals on a piece of wire. Don't take the corrosion proofing off your nutplate . . . or other hardware. In fact, there's no need to scuff the facing aluminum parts, just get them clean. Screws would be better than rivets. Rivets are SHEAR fasteners and what you're trying to achieve is a intimate contact between two pieces of metal with TENSION fasteners. 4 - 5 stainless steel, 6-32 screws torqued to values recommended by the manufacturer (or AC43-13) would be better. A light coat of silicone grease between faying surfaces of the aluminum would be good too. Having said all that, know that a whole lot of folks have installed ground lugs thusly . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Battery_Install_OBrien_2.jpg . . . and they're probably gong to be just fine. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:32 PM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Van's gauges Similar, my pressure and temperature gauges failed at around 400 hours. So all of the Van=92s gauges, save for fuel gauges, were pull out and replaced with a GRT EIS 4000. Now approaching 700 hours I=92m going to replace the fuel gauges with a dual UMA 2 =BC. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PeterHunt1@aol.com Sent: 14 September 2009 18:46 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Van's gauges In 420 house over three plus years a number of Van's gauges have failed (fuel quantity, volts, amps, oil pressure). Now I must install the third volt meter. I like the look of Van's gauges and the fact that they match, but don't like the failure rate. What have your experiences been? Pete in Clearwater RV-6 - Reserve Grand Champion, S 'n F 2006 and other awards _____ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Lug From: Richard Girard You can also alodine the parts before riveting / bolting. Rick Girard On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 12:40 AM 9/13/2009, you wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am building an RV 8. The battery is rear mounted. I was planning to > ground the battery to the lower longeron that is directly adjacent. I > checked with Vans, who said that four or five rivets no closer than 1/2 inch > apart is fine structurally. > > I had previously primed the longeron, so I carefully scraped that off and > buffed it up with white Scotchbrite. I built a lug of 1/8th aluminum with a > 1/4" nutplate on the bottom, which I also carefully polished up. The > question is, is it okay to just rivet these two pieces of aluminum together > or is there something I should sandwich in between them to improve the > connection? Does the bond need to be sealed with dielectric grease or some > such? What have others done in this situation? > > > The goals for achieving gas-tightness of > the conducting materials are the same for > your ground lug as for putting terminals on > a piece of wire. > > Don't take the corrosion proofing off your > nutplate . . . or other hardware. In fact, > there's no need to scuff the facing aluminum > parts, just get them clean. > > Screws would be better than rivets. Rivets > are SHEAR fasteners and what you're trying > to achieve is a intimate contact between two > pieces of metal with TENSION fasteners. > 4 - 5 stainless steel, 6-32 screws torqued > to values recommended by the manufacturer > (or AC43-13) would be better. A light coat > of silicone grease between faying surfaces > of the aluminum would be good too. > > Having said all that, know that a whole > lot of folks have installed ground lugs > thusly . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Battery_Install_OBrien_2.jpg > > . . . and they're probably gong to be just > fine. > > Bob . . . > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:03 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps From: "Eric M. Jones" More and more I get this inquiry: "I want to use your Wig-wag with HDI lamps. Duckworth says they need to warm up for ten minutes and then they wig-wag fine. I reply: Yes, I have been looking at the problem. I even have a set here to measure. But... In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, HDI, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in detail what is needed to wig-wag them. So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HDI lamps because they will have short lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HDI lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (let's say) 2500 restarts per hour. Many problems with HDIs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion. If the HDI lamp sellers insist that their lamps can be wig-wagged, I would love to see the 100 hour data. Until then, I cannot recommend using the Perihelion Design wig-wags for HDI lamps. Maybe other manufacturers have a different opinion. Any thoughts? -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263038#263038 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:02 PM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 electric components for RV firewall Lincoln, You are welcome to check my site. Look under "Wiring" and "FWF" Bret Smith RV-9A N16BL Blue Ridge, Ga www.FlightInnovations.com _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lincoln Keill Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 4:07 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 electric components for RV firewall Could an RV-driver with a Z-13/8 system post a link to any pictures/diagrams/descriptions they have of the location of the electrical system components (battery, contactors, grounding lugs, etc.) on their firewall as well as wire pass-throughs? I searched under the archive and found information on throttle/mixture cable location but nothing about where all the electric stuff goes. Van's suggestion won't work and I'm loathe to start drilling holes until I know for sure where everything is going to go and not interfere with something else down the road. Thanks. Lincoln Keill airlincoln@sbcglobal.net RV-7A fuselage Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps From: "Matt Prather" Go old school and use a mechanical solution.. How about a rotating mirror (or lens) like in the old bubblegum lamps on a cop car? Can cause the wig-wagging effect, and not just straight ahead - off to the side too. The mirror could have a position where it's completely out of the path of the beam allowing "steady burning" behavior, and full output - no attenuation from the reflection. Matt- > > > More and more I get this inquiry: "I want to use your Wig-wag with HDI > lamps. Duckworth says they need to warm up for ten minutes and then they > wig-wag fine. > > I reply: > > Yes, I have been looking at the problem. I even have a set here to > measure. But... > > In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon > short-arc, HDI, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with > both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in > detail what is needed to wig-wag them. > > So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HDI lamps > because they will have short lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an > advantage of HDI lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (let's > say) 2500 restarts per hour. Many problems with HDIs don't occur in any > simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to > contend with. Furthermore, switched mode power supplies and starters are > particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the > manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to > be used in this fashion. > > If the HDI lamp sellers insist that their lamps can be wig-wagged, I would > love to see the 100 hour data. > > Until then, I cannot recommend using the Perihelion Design wig-wags for > HDI lamps. Maybe other manufacturers have a different opinion. > > Any thoughts? > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263038#263038 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps From: "Matt Prather" Oh yeah.. And bring on the LED's.. I don't think they particularly suffer from cycling, as long as the peak current is kept under control. > Go old school and use a mechanical solution.. How about a rotating mirror > (or lens) like in the old bubblegum lamps on a cop car? Can cause the > wig-wagging effect, and not just straight ahead - off to the side too. > The mirror could have a position where it's completely out of the path of > the beam allowing "steady burning" behavior, and full output - no > attenuation from the reflection. > > > Matt- > >> >> >> More and more I get this inquiry: "I want to use your Wig-wag with HDI >> lamps. Duckworth says they need to warm up for ten minutes and then they >> wig-wag fine. >> >> I reply: >> >> Yes, I have been looking at the problem. I even have a set here to >> measure. But... >> >> In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power >> xenon >> short-arc, HDI, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with >> both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in >> detail what is needed to wig-wag them. >> >> So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HDI lamps >> because they will have short lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an >> advantage of HDI lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (let's >> say) 2500 restarts per hour. Many problems with HDIs don't occur in any >> simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to >> contend with. Furthermore, switched mode power supplies and starters are >> particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the >> manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to >> be used in this fashion. >> >> If the HDI lamp sellers insist that their lamps can be wig-wagged, I >> would >> love to see the 100 hour data. >> >> Until then, I cannot recommend using the Perihelion Design wig-wags for >> HDI lamps. Maybe other manufacturers have a different opinion. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> -------- >> Eric M. Jones >> www.PerihelionDesign.com >> 113 Brentwood Drive >> Southbridge, MA 01550 >> (508) 764-2072 >> emjones@charter.net >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263038#263038 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:58 PM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Van's gauges Similar to your and Peter Penquilly's poor experiences, my oil pressure gauge (the only Van's gauge in my Long-EZ) can charitably be described as "flaky". The basic gauge itself is not reliable as proven on a bench test with a fixed resistance to replace the sender. -- Joe Independence, OR Aircraft Position: http://www.mail2600.com/position PeterHunt1@aol.com wrote: > In 420 house over three plus years a number of Van's gauges have failed > (fuel quantity, volts, amps, oil pressure). Now I must install the third volt > meter. I like the look of Van's gauges and the fact that they match, but > don't like the failure rate. What have your experiences been? > > Pete in Clearwater > RV-6 - Reserve Grand Champion, S 'n F 2006 and other awards > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:58 PM PST US From: Neil Clayton Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Van's gauges Of all the teething troubles I've experienced since my plane first flew (about 60 hours on the airframe now), almost ALL were caused by %^$#&* Van's gauges lying to me. I spent 6 months chasing hot oil till I realized it was a lie. The RPM at cruise at 180 kts is regularly reported by Van's as 1000 Revs. The ammeter swings from full -ve to full +ve all the time in flight. Voltage display is about 11v most of the time (I have a digital voltmeter hooked up to the bus showing a true 13.5 volts) Lately, the CHT on #4 has gone to 450 indicated - but nothing has been changed to the cooling flow. I'm gonna take great pleasure in dumping these trash gauges in the pool and installing a Dynon EIS as soon as I can. Recommendation to anyone contemplating these gauges is - DON'T! They're junk! Neil At 06:10 PM 9/14/2009, you wrote: >Similar, my pressure and temperature gauges >failed at around 400 hours. So all of the Van=92s >gauges, save for fuel gauges, were pull out and >replaced with a GRT EIS 4000. Now approaching >700 hours I=92m going to replace the fuel gauges with a dual UMA 2 =BC. > >Peter > >-----Original Message----- >From: >owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] >On Behalf Of PeterHunt1@aol.com >Sent: 14 September 2009 18:46 >To: RV6-list@matronics.com; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Van's gauges > >In 420 house over three plus years a number of >Van's gauges have failed (fuel quantity, volts, >amps, oil pressure). Now I must install the >third volt meter. I like the look of Van's >gauges and the fact that they match, but don't >like the failure rate. What have your experiences been? > >Pete in Clearwater >RV-6 - Reserve Grand Champion, S 'n F 2006 and other awards > > >---------- > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > >http://forums.matronics.com > > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:34 PM PST US From: MLWynn@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Lug I have used conversion coating before priming for much of the substructure. This conducts well? Regards, Michael Wynn RV 8 San Ramon, CA In a message dated 9/14/2009 3:49:56 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes: You can also alodine the parts before riveting / bolting. Rick Girard On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <_nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com_ (mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com) > wrote: At 12:40 AM 9/13/2009, you wrote: Hi all, I am building an RV 8. The battery is rear mounted. I was planning to ground the battery to the lower longeron that is directly adjacent. I checked with Vans, who said that four or five rivets no closer than 1/2 inch apart is fine structurally. I had previously primed the longeron, so I carefully scraped that off and buffed it up with white Scotchbrite. I built a lug of 1/8th aluminum with a 1/4" nutplate on the bottom, which I also carefully polished up. The question is, is it okay to just rivet these two pieces of aluminum together or is there something I should sandwich in between them to improve the connection? Does the bond need to be sealed with dielectric grease or some such? What have others done in this situation? The goals for achieving gas-tightness of the conducting materials are the same for your ground lug as for putting terminals on a piece of wire. Don't take the corrosion proofing off your nutplate . . . or other hardware. In fact, there's no need to scuff the facing aluminum parts, just get them clean. Screws would be better than rivets. Rivets are SHEAR fasteners and what you're trying to achieve is a intimate contact between two pieces of metal with TENSION fasteners. 4 - 5 stainless steel, 6-32 screws torqued to values recommended by the manufacturer (or AC43-13) would be better. A light coat of silicone grease between faying surfaces of the aluminum would be good too. Having said all that, know that a whole lot of folks have installed ground lugs thusly . . . _http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Battery_Install_OBrien_2.jpg_ (http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Battery_Install_OBrien_2.jpg) . . . and they're probably gong to be just fine. Bob . . . ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:19 PM PST US From: "Bob McCallum" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps Eric; LoPresti Speed Merchants market their "Boom Beam" lights as HID technology. They claim that this product http://loprestiaviation.com/PowerPulse.htm can be used in conjunction with them without damaging the HID system, and is in fact STC approved. The shortfalls you are citing, they claim to be urban myth. Not taking sides here, but there are obviously two opinions on the subject of wig-wag HID lights. Assuming of course that my supposition is correct that LoPresti lights are in fact HID in the same sense that you are describing. i.e. apples to apples comparison. Modern automotive HID's certainly don't need the 10 minute warm-up mentioned below by Duckworth to be switched on and off repeatedly. Don't know however what damage this may be causing. Your supposition of shortening the life may well be true. Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 7:20 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps > > > More and more I get this inquiry: "I want to use your Wig-wag with HDI lamps. > Duckworth says they need to warm up for ten minutes and then they wig-wag fine. > > I reply: > > Yes, I have been looking at the problem. I even have a set here to measure. But... > > In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, > HDI, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and > their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in detail what is needed to wig-wag > them. > > So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HDI lamps because they > will have short lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HDI lamps disappears > quickly if one abuses them by (let's say) 2500 restarts per hour. Many problems with > HDIs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order > problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched mode power supplies and starters are > particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the > lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion. > > If the HDI lamp sellers insist that their lamps can be wig-wagged, I would love to see > the 100 hour data. > > Until then, I cannot recommend using the Perihelion Design wig-wags for HDI lamps. > Maybe other manufacturers have a different opinion. > > Any thoughts? > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263038#263038 > > > > > > > > _- > ===================================================== > ===== > _- > ===================================================== > ===== > _- > ===================================================== > ===== > _- > ===================================================== > ===== > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Lug From: Richard Girard Yes, conductivity is the way Boeing tests material coming off the coating line at their Auburn facility. It's too hard to tell the difference between alodine and anodize by color but the conductivity test is conclusive. If it conducts, it's alodine, if it doesn't, it's anodize. Rick Girard On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:27 PM, wrote: > I have used conversion coating before priming for much of the > substructure. This conducts well? > > Regards, > > Michael Wynn > RV 8 > San Ramon, CA > > In a message dated 9/14/2009 3:49:56 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes: > > You can also alodine the parts before riveting / bolting. > Rick Girard > > On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> At 12:40 AM 9/13/2009, you wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am building an RV 8. The battery is rear mounted. I was planning to >> ground the battery to the lower longeron that is directly adjacent. I >> checked with Vans, who said that four or five rivets no closer than 1/2 inch >> apart is fine structurally. >> >> I had previously primed the longeron, so I carefully scraped that off and >> buffed it up with white Scotchbrite. I built a lug of 1/8th aluminum with a >> 1/4" nutplate on the bottom, which I also carefully polished up. The >> question is, is it okay to just rivet these two pieces of aluminum together >> or is there something I should sandwich in between them to improve the >> connection? Does the bond need to be sealed with dielectric grease or some >> such? What have others done in this situation? >> >> >> The goals for achieving gas-tightness of >> the conducting materials are the same for >> your ground lug as for putting terminals on >> a piece of wire. >> >> Don't take the corrosion proofing off your >> nutplate . . . or other hardware. In fact, >> there's no need to scuff the facing aluminum >> parts, just get them clean. >> >> Screws would be better than rivets. Rivets >> are SHEAR fasteners and what you're trying >> to achieve is a intimate contact between two >> pieces of metal with TENSION fasteners. >> 4 - 5 stainless steel, 6-32 screws torqued >> to values recommended by the manufacturer >> (or AC43-13) would be better. A light coat >> of silicone grease between faying surfaces >> of the aluminum would be good too. >> >> Having said all that, know that a whole >> lot of folks have installed ground lugs >> thusly . . . >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Battery_Install_OBrien_2.jpg >> >> . . . and they're probably gong to be just >> fine. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> * >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > * > > =================================== > List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ====================================ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:22 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Van's gauges >Voltage display is about 11v most of the time (I have a digital >voltmeter hooked up to the bus showing a true 13.5 volts) Under what conditions? With the engine running and the alternator supporting all the ship's electrical loads, one would expect 14.2 to 14.6 volts on the bus. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Lug At 09:02 PM 9/14/2009, you wrote: >Yes, conductivity is the way Boeing tests material coming off the >coating line at their Auburn facility. It's too hard to tell the >difference between alodine and anodize by color but the conductivity >test is conclusive. If it conducts, it's alodine, if it doesn't, it's anodize. Alodine and other conversion coatings are "synthetic rust" wherein the end product is less undesirable than the naturally occurring alternatives. These treatments have more to do with protection of the exposed surfaces from environmental effects. The definition of a gas-tight joint is that environmental effects are mechanically excluded from entry. This is accomplished first by upsetting the two metal surfaces of interest such that they're mashed together so tightly that bad stuff can't get in. Micro-gaps can be closed with things like dielectric greases (silicone) that squish out of metal-to-metal contact but "plug" any voids were the metal surfaces do not quite come together. While protective surface conversions of any type may be beneficial to the base metal, they can offer no particular enhancement of electrical bonding between two pieces when you put the mash on them. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.