---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/17/09: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:22 AM - Re: fuel flow transducer location (al38kit) 2. 08:39 AM - Bus Voltage (Speedy11@aol.com) 3. 09:05 AM - Re: Bus Voltage (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 4. 09:06 AM - Re: Bus Voltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 09:50 AM - mc3423 Overvoltage Crowbar Sensing Circuit (Peter Mather) 6. 10:13 AM - Re: mc3423 Overvoltage Crowbar Sensing Circuit (pmather) 7. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: mc3423 Overvoltage Crowbar Sensing Circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 02:13 PM - One-Wire Alternator Conversion () 9. 04:10 PM - Re: Bus Voltage (Tim Andres) 10. 05:12 PM - Re: Bus Voltage (Kelly McMullen) 11. 05:58 PM - Re: Bus Voltage (Tim Andres) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:37 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuel flow transducer location From: "al38kit" I have used them in both locations with equal success. Now I have one mounted on the engine case after the transducer...this is on a Lycoming installation. On the Continental, it is the only place that you will get an accurate flow, as they use a return line from the servo to the tank. Another thing that Flowscan recommends beside the lines being straight, is to mount the transducer with the wires pointing up. I have installed them with a 90 degree fitting on the out side and it has worked fine. Al Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263498#263498 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:33 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage In the comment below, Bob said that the bus (main?) should display 14+ volts. Mine displays 13.5 with the engine running, 60A Plane Power alternator on, and normal electrical loads of about 22-24 Amps. Initial Amp spike is up to 45 just after start as battery recharges, but volts average 13.5 with occasional spike to 13.7. Should the PP alternator be putting out more? Is it adjustable? Stan Sutterfield > Under what conditions? With the engine running and the > alternator supporting all the ship's electrical loads, > one would expect 14.2 to 14.6 volts on the bus. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:25 AM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage Well PP sits at 13.7V continuously (as shown on the Dynon EMS..Then one day I measured the actual battery voltage and it was over 14V...So I took the highly technal path and chose to ignore it..:). But it is a curiosity I'd l ike to get to the bottom of one day. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:28 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage In the comment below, Bob said that the bus (main?) should display 14+ volt s. Mine displays 13.5 with the engine running, 60A Plane Power alternator on, and normal electrical loads of about 22-24 Amps. Initial Amp spike is up to 45 just after start as battery recharges, but volts average 13.5 with occasional spike to 13.7. Should the PP alternator be putting out more? Is it adjustable? Stan Sutterfield > Under what conditions? With the engine running and the > alternator supporting all the ship's electrical loads, > one would expect 14.2 to 14.6 volts on the bus. ________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage At 10:27 AM 9/17/2009, you wrote: >In the comment below, Bob said that the bus (main?) should display >14+ volts. Mine displays 13.5 with the engine running, 60A Plane >Power alternator on, and normal electrical loads of about 22-24 >Amps. Initial Amp spike is up to 45 just after start as battery >recharges, but volts average 13.5 with occasional spike to 13.7. >Should the PP alternator be putting out more? Yes . . . and it MAY be . . . > Is it adjustable? I don't think so. Plane Power starts with a suitable IR alternator core and simply modifies it to bring the field supply lead to the outside world so that OV protection and pilot operated switches have ABSOLUTE, LOW-ENERGY control over alternator operations. Internal regulators for alternators are modern integrated circuits. Its EASY to trim their regulation set-points for the design goal value during manufacture. 14.2 to 14.6 volts has been the benchmark window for as long as I can remember. I'm not aware of any example of user adjustable, internal regulators. Let's eliminate potential sources of uncertainty. First, make sure that the voltmeter you're citing agrees with other voltmeters to within 0.1 volts. Check it against a Fluke instrument if you can. Know too that the regulator senses voltage at the b-lead terminal . . . so it's possible that system loads combined with system wiring resistance between b-lead and your voltmeter's sense point may be accounting for your observation. GROUND systems can contribute to a voltage drop too. Do a voltage measurement right at the b-lead terminal reference to the alternator's case ground. The alternator may be performing as advertised with the voltage being tossed off in installation errors. Check with Plane Power. Ask them what their design-goal set-point value is. Just because I've never seen a 13.8v regulator doesn't mean they don't exist. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:41 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: AeroElectric-List: mc3423 Overvoltage Crowbar Sensing Circuit ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:06 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: mc3423 Overvoltage Crowbar Sensing Circuit From: "pmather" I don't know why my original message didn't get through but what I wrote was: Pending availability of AEC9004 has anyone looked at implementing the crowbar in the interim circuit with a mc3423? One chip, three resistors and an SCR, total cost approximately $4. Any catches I'm missing? best regards Peter Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=263551#263551 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: mc3423 Overvoltage Crowbar Sensing Circuit At 12:11 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote: > >I don't know why my original message didn't get through but what I wrote was: > >Pending availability of AEC9004 has anyone looked at implementing the >crowbar in the interim circuit with a mc3423? >One chip, three resistors and an SCR, total cost approximately $4. Any >catches I'm missing? The AEC9004 is not an SCR based crow-bar protection module. The AEC9003 (AEC), OVM-14 (B&C), and CbOVM-14 (AEC) modules are still in production in one form or another . . . The 3423 is a well thought out device that would nicely emulate the functionality of the AEC/B&C crowbar OV protection modules. It features a constant current source charging a clamped dV/dT capacitor to set a "window" of tolerance for short duration transients. I did an implementation of the same configuration with dual comparators a few years after we offered the first OV crowbar design to Beech. The MC3423 came along some years later to offer a one-chip implementation of the idea. As long as our supply of trigger-diodes holds out, the design we offer will continue with the minimum-parts-count approach. It's a slick chip. However, I note that Digikey has no stock on the DIP8 package it and appears to offer the SOIC 8 package with only 11 pieces in stock at .93/ea each right now. Allied has DIP8 chips on hand at .71/ea. Other folks may have DIP8 packages on hand. If this chip is going the way that many others do, the alternatives will be to revisit the dual-comparator approach I cited earlier. I can supply a schematic for the design if anyone wants it. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:03 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: One-Wire Alternator Conversion 9/17/2009 Below web page posted for your information: http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_howto_alternator.asp 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:24 PM PST US From: Tim Andres Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage I think this answers a question I had about PP alternators, which is are th e regulators linear like B&C?- I gather they are not but still wondering if it is really that important. Nobody seems to be having trouble with nois e from them.=0ATim Andres=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroe lectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 9:04:43 AM =0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage=0A=0AAt 10:27 AM 9/17/2009, you wrote:=0A=0AIn the comment below, Bob said that the bus (main?) should display 14+ volts.- Mine displays 13.5 with the engine running, 60A Plane Power alternator on, and normal electrical loads of about 22-24 Amps.- I nitial Amp spike is up to 45 just after start as battery recharges, but vol ts average 13.5 with occasional spike to 13.7.=0A>Should the PP alternator be putting out more?=0A- Yes . . . and it MAY be . . .=0A=0A=0A- Is it adjustable?=0A- I don't think so. Plane Power starts with=0A- a suitabl e IR alternator core and simply=0A- modifies it to bring the field supply lead=0A- to the outside world so that OV protection=0A- and pilot oper ated switches have ABSOLUTE,=0A- LOW-ENERGY control over alternator opera tions.=0A=0A- Internal regulators for alternators are=0A- modern integr ated circuits. Its EASY to trim=0A- their regulation set-points for the d esign=0A- goal value during manufacture. 14.2 to 14.6=0A- volts has bee n the benchmark window for=0A- as long as I can remember. I'm not aware =0A- of any example of user adjustable, internal=0A- regulators.=0A=0A - Let's eliminate potential sources of uncertainty.=0A- First, make sur e that the voltmeter you're=0A- citing agrees with other voltmeters to wi thin=0A- 0.1 volts. Check it against a Fluke instrument=0A- if you can. Know too that the regulator senses=0A- voltage at the b-lead terminal . . . so it's=0A- possible that system loads combined with system=0A- wir ing resistance between b-lead and your voltmeter's=0A- sense point may be accounting for your observation.=0A- GROUND systems can contribute to a voltage drop=0A- too.=0A=0A- Do a voltage measurement right at the b-le ad=0A- terminal reference to the alternator's case=0A- ground. The alte rnator may be performing as=0A- advertised with the voltage being tossed off=0A- in installation errors.=0A=0A- Check with Plane Power. Ask them what their=0A- design-goal set-point value is. Just because=0A- I've n ever seen a 13.8v regulator doesn't mean=0A- they don't exist.=0A=0A=0A ------ Bob . . .=0A=0A------- ------------------- --------------------=0A------ ( . . .- a long habit of not th inking-- )=0A------ ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )=0A------ ( appearance of being right . . .------ )=0A------ (---------------- ---------------------- )=0A- ----- (----------------- -Thoma s Paine 1776-- )=0A------- -------------------------------- =================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:42 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage Plane power offers a number of different alternators, including PMA'd versions for certified aircraft, that clearly require the original external regulator. Their experimental versions are the internally regulated models. So you can have pretty much which flavor pleases you. Tim Andres wrote: > I think this answers a question I had about PP alternators, which is are > the regulators linear like B&C? I gather they are not but still > wondering if it is really that important. Nobody seems to be having > trouble with noise from them. > Tim Andres > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2009 9:04:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage > > At 10:27 AM 9/17/2009, you wrote: >> In the comment below, Bob said that the bus (main?) should display 14+ >> volts. Mine displays 13.5 with the engine running, 60A Plane Power >> alternator on, and normal electrical loads of about 22-24 Amps. >> Initial Amp spike is up to 45 just after start as battery recharges, >> but volts average 13.5 with occasional spike to 13.7. >> Should the PP alternator be putting out more? > > Yes . . . and it MAY be . . . > >> Is it adjustable? > > I don't think so. Plane Power starts with > a suitable IR alternator core and simply > modifies it to bring the field supply lead > to the outside world so that OV protection > and pilot operated switches have ABSOLUTE, > LOW-ENERGY control over alternator operations. > > Internal regulators for alternators are > modern integrated circuits. Its EASY to trim > their regulation set-points for the design > goal value during manufacture. 14.2 to 14.6 > volts has been the benchmark window for > as long as I can remember. I'm not aware > of any example of user adjustable, internal > regulators. > > Let's eliminate potential sources of uncertainty. > First, make sure that the voltmeter you're > citing agrees with other voltmeters to within > 0.1 volts. Check it against a Fluke instrument > if you can. Know too that the regulator senses > voltage at the b-lead terminal . . . so it's > possible that system loads combined with system > wiring resistance between b-lead and your voltmeter's > sense point may be accounting for your observation. > GROUND systems can contribute to a voltage drop > too. > > Do a voltage measurement right at the b-lead > terminal reference to the alternator's case > ground. The alternator may be performing as > advertised with the voltage being tossed off > in installation errors. > > Check with Plane Power. Ask them what their > design-goal set-point value is. Just because > I've never seen a 13.8v regulator doesn't mean > they don't exist. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li======== > ========== * > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:04 PM PST US From: Tim Andres Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage Thanks but the question is are the PPregulators linear or switchers? ----- Original Message ---- From: Kelly McMullen Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:56:16 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage Plane power offers a number of different alternators, including PMA'd versions for certified aircraft, that clearly require the original external regulator. Their experimental versions are the internally regulated models. So you can have pretty much which flavor pleases you. Tim Andres wrote: > I think this answers a question I had about PP alternators, which is are the regulators linear like B&C? I gather they are not but still wondering if it is really that important. Nobody seems to be having trouble with noise from them. > Tim Andres > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2009 9:04:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Bus Voltage > > At 10:27 AM 9/17/2009, you wrote: >> In the comment below, Bob said that the bus (main?) should display 14+ volts. Mine displays 13.5 with the engine running, 60A Plane Power alternator on, and normal electrical loads of about 22-24 Amps. Initial Amp spike is up to 45 just after start as battery recharges, but volts average 13.5 with occasional spike to 13.7. >> Should the PP alternator be putting out more? > > Yes . . . and it MAY be . . . > >> Is it adjustable? > > I don't think so. Plane Power starts with > a suitable IR alternator core and simply > modifies it to bring the field supply lead > to the outside world so that OV protection > and pilot operated switches have ABSOLUTE, > LOW-ENERGY control over alternator operations. > > Internal regulators for alternators are > modern integrated circuits. Its EASY to trim > their regulation set-points for the design > goal value during manufacture. 14.2 to 14.6 > volts has been the benchmark window for > as long as I can remember. I'm not aware > of any example of user adjustable, internal > regulators. > > Let's eliminate potential sources of uncertainty. > First, make sure that the voltmeter you're > citing agrees with other voltmeters to within > 0.1 volts. Check it against a Fluke instrument > if you can. Know too that the regulator senses > voltage at the b-lead terminal . . . so it's > possible that system loads combined with system > wiring resistance between b-lead and your voltmeter's > sense point may be accounting for your observation. > GROUND systems can contribute to a voltage drop > too. > > Do a voltage measurement right at the b-lead > terminal reference to the alternator's case > ground. The alternator may be performing as > advertised with the voltage being tossed off > in installation errors. > > Check with Plane Power. Ask them what their > design-goal set-point value is. Just because > I've never seen a 13.8v regulator doesn't mean > they don't exist. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li======== ========== * > > * > > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.