---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/28/09: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:35 AM - Why have a switch on ALT Field? () 2. 07:00 AM - Re: Welding cable (tomcostanza) 3. 07:27 AM - Re: Why have a switch on ALT Field? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Welding cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:45 AM - Re: Welding cable (Chris Stone) 6. 08:55 AM - Re: Why have a switch on ALT Field? (George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/DOA) 7. 09:58 AM - Re: Welding cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 10:15 AM - Re: Why have a switch on ALT Field? (Harley) 9. 11:12 AM - Re: Welding cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:29 AM - Re: Why have a switch on ALT Field? (rvg8tor) 11. 04:38 PM - Re: Welding cable (Chris) 12. 09:45 PM - Welding cable, cabbages and kings (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 09:52 PM - Re: Re: Why have a switch on ALT Field? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:27 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Why have a switch on ALT Field? 9/28/2009 Hello Again Mike, You wrote: "I look forward to the simple answer if there is one." Let's try this -- How do you intend to simulate or check the continued functioning of essential for flight avionics items when you are airborne and have a non functioning alternator because: the field wire broke,** the belt broke, or whatever? Here is my answer: At the end of each flight while the engine is still running I turn off the alternator by means of its field switch and ensure that: A) The essential for flight avionics items (Garmin 430W and transponder) can still function off an essential bus. (These items needed to return to my home field inside the Washington DC SFRA.) B) My low voltage warning system (a flashing light) is still functioning. Discussion: 1) Why not perform check A above at the beginning of each flight before the engine is started and the alternator is not yet putting out current? Because: a) I do not have my Garmin 430W and transponder turned on prior to or during engine start, and b) I don't want to put the electrical burden of the Garmin 430W and transponder on the battery before engine start. 2) Why not perform check B above at the beginning of each flight before the engine is started and the alternator is not yet putting out current? That check is indeed accomplished as soon as the master battery contactor is closed at the beginning of the flight. The B check at the end of the flight is a duplication of the before flight B check and is just a system design fall out in order to perform check A. 3) Why not just use pulling the alternator field CB as a means of turning off the alternator at the end of each flight? I have not priced the cost differential between replacing my fancy, internally illuminated, rocker activated, alternator field switch and the alternator field CB, but I do know this: a) The switch is designed to be switched on and off thousands of times, the CB is not, and b) It will be much easier for me to replace the switch than the CB. So please let me know what you decide regarding whether or not you will install the alternator field switch and what were the deciding factors in that decision. Thanks. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." **PS: This happened to a friend of mine in his Beech Sierra just a few months ago. He has no low voltage warning system other than looking at an aftermarket automotive gadget voltmeter plugged into his cigarette lighter -- not very visible. His first real warning was when his VHF comm began to not work properly because the battery was becoming depleted. Soon he had no electronic nav functions either. He was on an IFR flight plan, but in VMC. He spotted a little podunk airport and landed. A mechanic at the airport quickly diagnosed the problem, repaired the wire, and my friend was on his way shortly. But what if he has been in IMC? What if he had not spotted podunk airport? What if there was no repair person or facility at podunk airport? Using your word "convenient" do you think that he would have had a convenient termination of that flight? ==================================================== Time: 12:20:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why have a switch on ALT Field? From: "rvg8tor" Bob, I know you are trying to help but, this last post does not seem to help me, it actually confuses me. I respect your experience but I am not trying to design an electrical system from scratch, much like I did not design my RV-8A from scratch. I picked a plane from a good designer (Van's). While building I study the plans and try to understand how the parts relate to be a better builder, if I have a question I call builder assistance and I ask questions on the forum. When it came to the electrical system, I went with a design from an expert in the field, in studying the design I asked a simple question, 'why is the alternator field switch needed". There have been a lot of words written, much of which my little brain doesn'tunderstand how it relates to the very simple question. The possible answers I was expecting were: 1. It has always been done that way 2. It doesn't matter the non-switch method will work but has these limitations (fill in the blanks) 3. You need the switch because if you don't have one it will cause XYZ. Some of what you wrote I get but I really just need the simple short answer, not a run down on design philosophy. Since you designed the systems I thought of all people you could provide the best explanation. I thank you for attempting to answer my questions, if nothing else you have convinced me not to deviate from the Z diagram. I can't say that I understand fully why the alternator field switch is a requirement other than to provide a convenient way to turn off the field. I look forward to the simple answer if there is one. -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:07 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Welding cable From: "tomcostanza" Here's another data point: http://www.cableyard.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=0cc7974ccdf864c041a7cdd5357e601a -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265302#265302 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Why have a switch on ALT Field? > >When it came to the electrical system, I went with a design from an >expert in the >field, in studying the design I asked a simple question, >'why is the alternator field switch needed". There have been a lot >of words written, >much of which my little brain doesn'tunderstand how it relates to the very >simple question. I'm sorry if my words are too much for you. When I wear my teacher-hat, the answers I offer are intended to lead to understanding of the foundation upon which the answer is based. It's my belief that once understanding is achieved, the student then becomes a teacher on the same discussion. Perhaps I presume too much . . . that everyone here on the List is as enthusiastic about understanding as I . . . > The possible answers I was expecting were: > >1. It has always been done that way Okay, with my expert-hat on, that answer works for me. Fly comfortably my friend . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Welding cable At 08:56 AM 9/28/2009, you wrote: > > >Here's another data point: > >http://www.cableyard.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=0cc7974ccdf864c041a7cdd5357e601a Another score from the 3-point line . . . thanks! Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:21 AM PST US From: Chris Stone Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Welding cable McMaster-Carr supplies welding cable in two insulation types at a reasonable price... http://www.mcmaster.com/#welding-cable/=3tsvkp Chris Stone RV-* >>Where can you find the anchor brand cable? Any weblinks/supply you >>can point to. >>Thanks >>Chris >>RV-10 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:42 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Why have a switch on ALT Field? From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/DOA" I'm sorry if my words are too much for you. When I wear my teacher-hat, the answers I offer are intended to lead to understanding of the foundation upon which the answer is based. It's my belief that once understanding is achieved, the student then becomes a teacher on the same discussion. Perhaps I presume too much . . . that everyone here on the List is as enthusiastic about understanding as I . . . Keep at it Bob - I generally need to be told more than once. As for the presentation style, I learn more than electron herding here. Too many of us can barely speak, much less write... neal ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Welding cable At 09:36 AM 9/28/2009, you wrote: > >McMaster-Carr supplies welding cable in two insulation types at a >reasonable price... > >http://www.mcmaster.com/#welding-cable/=3tsvkp Thanks! I should have thought about those guys. I'm thinking about adding a page to the website too link to the hot prospects . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:04 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Why have a switch on ALT Field? > I'm sorry if my words are too much for you. > When I wear my teacher-hat, the answers > I offer are intended to lead to understanding of > the foundation upon which the answer is based. > It's my belief that once understanding is > achieved, the student then becomes a teacher > on the same discussion. Perhaps I presume too > much . . . that everyone here on the List is > as enthusiastic about understanding as I . . . Don't stop, Bob...that's the way I always try to explain things, figuring that most people don't believe me or want to know the reason why and need a more detailed explanation or an understanding for themselves...that was from my working days as well, when I had to train the mechanics after I had installed one of the new automated systems. Of course they all usually fall asleep ... Harley ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:22 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Welding cable > > I'm thinking about adding a page to the > website too link to the hot prospects . . . Broke down and did it. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Sources.html . . . as readers discover additional web sources for other unique materials or tools that belong on this list are encouraged to let me know about them. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why have a switch on ALT Field? From: "rvg8tor" Bob N. Please to not take my request for a simpler answer the wrong way, I am enthusiastic about learning, I was just not getting it. When I was asked about teaching as in instructor pilot in the Air Force, I always said what made a good instructor was being able to give the same information many different ways until the student got it. We all learn different ways and at a different pace. My email to you was meant to communicate that I was not getting it, please tell me a different way. In radio jargon "I did not copy say again". To everyone on this thread, my knowledge of how the alternator and regulator and field work has increased ten fold and that is what my ultimate goal was, I never want to stop learning. I will put in the field switch after all is said and done for the following reasons not in any particular priority. 1. CBs don't' make good switches 2. Convenience 3. There might be something I did not get and don't want to add a switch later 4. It had always been done that way [Laughing] Thank you again to all who posted I hope I am not the only one who gained from this thread. -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265358#265358 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:59 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Welding cable Ditto on that Bob!! I always go to McMaster and just as quickly forget I did. -Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 12:54 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Welding cable At 09:36 AM 9/28/2009, you wrote: > >McMaster-Carr supplies welding cable in two insulation types at a >reasonable price... > >http://www.mcmaster.com/#welding-cable/=3tsvkp Thanks! I should have thought about those guys. I'm thinking about adding a page to the website too link to the hot prospects . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Welding cable, cabbages and kings At 06:28 PM 9/28/2009, you wrote: > >Ditto on that Bob!! I always go to McMaster and just as quickly forget I >did. Just too many things for the ol' gray matter to keep a grip on . . . but gee, McMaster-Carr? I used to mail order from their 2+ inch thick mail order catalog over 30 years ago. If they didn't have it in that catalog you probably didn't need it! I may be renewing an old acquaintance with them. Out here in cow and buzzard country, everything is 100 miles away . . . well not quite. We've got one of those 10,000 sq ft Ace hardware stores in Pratt that is VERY well stocked. They're only 30 miles away but with prices that are pretty breathtaking. Would you believe $4.75 for a 2-foot piece of valve stem packing? I need to find that stash of bee's wax and graphite! But if you gotta have it today, it's possible. The stores here in M.L. are quite adequate to routine needs and they too are willing to get stuff in on "Wednesday's truck". At the same time, I've got at least two dozen projects on the to-do list at all times. If one needs to pause while necessary goodies come in the mail, or UPS there are always plenty of alternatives to keep the moment productive. It certainly changes the way you think about things. Projects I was accustomed to finishing in a few hours after spool-up might take several days here if I don't have everything needed in 'inventory'. In some ways I think it's a good thing. You get to consider design goals and processes on a wider horizon and more relaxed imperative. Folks you work for are seldom upset if you have to order in materials. It's a much more relaxed but no less certain way of orchestrating one's priorities. Overnight UPS out of Digikey works well to M.L. too and at no greater expense than to Wichita Total hands-on time for a project isn't much longer but the challenge to craft expedient alternatives is greater. Dad's shop was loaded with little jigs, fixtures, mysterious bits and pieces that had to have been the product of his expanded creative horizons. I'm really enjoying the walk in his shoes. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why have a switch on ALT Field? > >To everyone on this thread, my knowledge of how the alternator and >regulator and field work has increased ten fold and that is what my >ultimate goal was, I never want to stop learning. Great! >I will put in the field switch after all is said and done for the >following reasons not in any particular priority. > >1. CBs don't' make good switches >2. Convenience >3. There might be something I did not get and don't want to add a >switch later >4. It had always been done that way [Laughing] All those things are true so even if the explanations offered seem arcane, the benefits for having the switch will be secured. >Thank you again to all who posted I hope I am not the only one who >gained from this thread. At last count, subscribers to this List numbered over 1800. If you look at the posting stats on Matronics, this list is one of the busiest on Matt's service. I have to believe the goals for sharing are being realized. Thank you for participating. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.