---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/02/09: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:36 AM - Re: Odyssey PC310 battery pairings (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 05:41 AM - The HF Inspection camera again (Harley) 3. 06:41 AM - Re: Inspection camera (glen matejcek) 4. 07:14 AM - Re: Inspection camera (Harley) 5. 07:53 AM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:25 AM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Marvin Haught) 7. 08:57 AM - Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:34 AM - Re: Odyssey PC310 battery pairings () 9. 10:24 AM - Z-16 Alternator disconnect (Tucsonchris) 10. 10:44 AM - What is the type of this pin? (Overtorque) 11. 11:46 AM - Re: What is the type of this pin? (Ralph E. Capen) 12. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 13. 11:54 AM - Re: What is the type of this pin? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 14. 08:50 PM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 09:16 PM - Re: What is the type of this pin? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 10:23 PM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 10:45 PM - Re: What is the type of this pin? (Overtorque) 18. 10:59 PM - Z-14 alternator wire guage?? (Bob Barrow) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey PC310 battery pairings At 12:44 AM 10/2/2009, you wrote: > >I am planning to use a small PC310 as a primary battery in a system >designed for 1 battery in a VFR only Rotax powered aircraft. Is it >possible to parallel a larger PC680 for occasions when I would want >to extend my >reserve capacity time? Or should I plan to only use a second PC310 >for such an application? See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Multiple_Battery_Myths_A.pdf It's okay to parallel batteries of two different sizes and/or station in their service life. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:07 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: AeroElectric-List: The HF Inspection camera again Once more, that little HF inspection camera has proved it's worth... When I tried to turn the heat on in my car a few days ago, the heater temperature couldn't be controlled. In fact, all I got was cold outside air. Googling online I found a couple of checks to determine the reason...turns out it was a loose soldered connection on the temperature control card...found it by using a programmed troubleshooting check I found the instructions for online. Not mentioned in any Mazda literature...including the shop manual! Hold in the radio "On" button, and push the radio "Scan Up" button at the same time! It then displays the temperature control setting in the radio display! Rotating the control showed no change from 0. But I digress... Had to remove the radio to get to that card, and in the process, lost the radio's side mounting bolt down behind the dashboard, and behind the center console and inside the edge of it's carpet. Where I could not get my head to see it, let alone my hand to retrieve it... After this weeks discussion, I immediately thought of the HF inspection camera. It located the bolt within seconds, and then mounting the magnet probe on the camera retrieved it as well! Re-soldered the loose connections on the card (all three of them on the temperature control potentiometer) and now the RX8 is toasty warm again! Oh, and the programmed check displays 0 to 16 as I rotate the control! Harley ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:44 AM PST US From: "glen matejcek" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inspection camera >The camera head as supplied is too big to fit into the spark plug >hole...but just a touch too big. On my unit, I found the body of the camera to just match the plug hole dia. However, there was a raised arrow cast on the side of the side of the body that caused interference. After a little judicial use of a single edged razor the arrow is now flush, yet discernable, and the camera now fits into the hole. glen matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.ne ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:49 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inspection camera When I checked it on my Lycoming O235, the camera did fit inside the beginning of the spark plug hole, but the threads in the hole got in the way from there on in...removing that little bit of plastic may have helped, but I didn't do it figuring that I wouldn't be able to see anything anyway since the camera would be pointing toward the crankcase and not the valves and I wouldn't be able to bend the camera in the short radius needed to look at the valves if it did get inside. Maybe the smaller 9mm camera may be able to do that... Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ glen matejcek wrote: > > > >> The camera head as supplied is too big to fit into the spark plug >> hole...but just a touch too big. >> > > On my unit, I found the body of the camera to just match the plug hole dia. > However, there was a raised arrow cast on the side of the side of the body > that caused interference. After a little judicial use of a single edged > razor the arrow is now flush, yet discernable, and the camera now fits into > the hole. > > glen matejcek > aerobubba@earthlink.ne > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... At 09:57 PM 9/30/2009, you wrote: >Greetings all, > >I've attached an electrical architecture (in Bob's drawing style) >for your review. It's for the Longeze I'm restoring. I'm doing the >restoration in multiple stages. Although it had ~1000 Hrs. on it >when I obtained it, it's been grounded since I received it. The >attached architecture is intended to be more robust and fault >tolerant than what was there (which I'm sure it is...) and certainly >not worse in that regard than a TC aircraft (though not as good as a >design with an essential bus). > >Down the road a bit, I intend to replace the vacuum system and >associated instruments with electric, plus a backup alternator and >an architecture with an essential bus. > >I would appreciate comments on the architecture and, specifically, >on any unmitigated faults (especially those that would not be >acceptable in a TC aircraft). > >The aircraft is VFR only. > >Thanks in advance, You appear to have a generic distribution system and questions that go to departures from recommendations offered in the Z-figures. What was it about Z-11 as depicted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z11M.pdf or features depicted in other z-figures that prompted the changes in direction? Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:02 AM PST US From: Marvin Haught Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... Bob - I'm a lurker on this site, but am in progress on a Pa22-20 project (certified). How difficult would it be to use Z-11 in a certified aircraft and get a 337 for that purpose? Has anyone done that recently? Looks perfect for the project. M. Haught Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:57 PM 9/30/2009, you wrote: >> Greetings all, >> >> I've attached an electrical architecture (in Bob's drawing style) for >> your review. It's for the Longeze I'm restoring. I'm doing the >> restoration in multiple stages. Although it had ~1000 Hrs. on it >> when I obtained it, it's been grounded since I received it. The >> attached architecture is intended to be more robust and fault >> tolerant than what was there (which I'm sure it is...) and certainly >> not worse in that regard than a TC aircraft (though not as good as a >> design with an essential bus). >> >> Down the road a bit, I intend to replace the vacuum system and >> associated instruments with electric, plus a backup alternator and an >> architecture with an essential bus. >> >> I would appreciate comments on the architecture and, specifically, on >> any unmitigated faults (especially those that would not be acceptable >> in a TC aircraft). >> >> The aircraft is VFR only. >> >> Thanks in advance, > > You appear to have a generic distribution system > and questions that go to departures from recommendations > offered in the Z-figures. > > What was it about Z-11 as depicted at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z11M.pdf > > or features depicted in other z-figures that > prompted the changes in direction? > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution At 03:00 PM 10/1/2009, you wrote: >Some confusion here perhaps. I'm not using Visio - rather I'm using >the ExpressSCH product that Vern has linked to at his site. It does >have a bitmap export function which I just tried and attached the results. >Looks like that works ok. You need fusible links upstream of your ov crowbar breakers, NOT pluggable fuses in the fuse blocks. You're missing a diode at the cross-feed contactor. Where are your batteries mounted? 2AWG is too big for forward mounted batteries. Suggest 4AWG. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey PC310 battery pairings From: Do Not Archive Great question Marv! I am doing the opposite (big main - start this thing, small - back me up because everyone says dual electronic ignitions on airplanes is the work of the devil) and never asked the question (some assumptions on my part). Hey, it's all 14 volt, so when the meter do-hicky-thing says 13.6 - ? it stops charging. It's all about reserves. Sort of like your gas tank, when it's half empty, it's half empty no matter the size. Thanks, Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 8:34 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Odyssey PC310 battery pairings At 12:44 AM 10/2/2009, you wrote: > >I am planning to use a small PC310 as a primary battery in a system >designed for 1 battery in a VFR only Rotax powered aircraft. Is it >possible to parallel a larger PC680 for occasions when I would want >to extend my >reserve capacity time? Or should I plan to only use a second PC310 >for such an application? See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Multiple_Battery_Myths_A. pdf It's okay to parallel batteries of two different sizes and/or station in their service life. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-16 Alternator disconnect From: "Tucsonchris" I'm working off Z-16. Rev M. I have the Cessna type split master. For the sake of argument, if I were to eliminate the Alternator OV disconnect relay, then would I simply interrupt one of the yellow alt wires with my master in order to take the Alternator off-line? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266085#266085 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:25 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: What is the type of this pin? From: "Overtorque" Hi All, who will be able to tell me what is the type of this connector? I found it in a switch coming from a military aircraft. In order to give a new life to the switch, I need to buy some pins....but I know nothing about it. Thank you for your help Overtorque. PS: On the first pic, it is millimeter.... (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/dsc00979fq.jpg/) (http://g.imageshack.us/img42/dsc00979fq.jpg/1/) (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/p1010327g.jpg/) (http://g.imageshack.us/img245/p1010327g.jpg/1/) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266089#266089 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:24 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What is the type of this pin? Wasn't able to get any of the images to load to see what you are referring to. Tried going directly to the site too with no joy. If it came from a military aircraft, there's a milspec for it and you should be able to get replacements using the milspec number.....the trick then is determining what the milspec is..... -----Original Message----- >From: Overtorque >Sent: Oct 2, 2009 1:42 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: What is the type of this pin? > > >Hi All, > >who will be able to tell me what is the type of this connector? I found it in a switch coming from a military aircraft. In order to give a new life to the switch, I need to buy some pins....but I know nothing about it. > >Thank you for your help > >Overtorque. > >PS: On the first pic, it is millimeter.... > > (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/dsc00979fq.jpg/) (http://g.imageshack.us/img42/dsc00979fq.jpg/1/) > > (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/p1010327g.jpg/) (http://g.imageshack.us/img245/p1010327g.jpg/1/) > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266089#266089 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:24 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution Bob, thanks for giving this a review. I've responded below: Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > You need fusible links upstream of your ov crowbar > breakers, NOT pluggable fuses in the fuse blocks. My thinking was the fuse is just protecting the wire to the pullable breaker. The wire is 16AWG and the fuse a 15amp. Then the breaker is a 5amp. But I think what you are telling me is that the fuse could defeat the whole purpose of having the pullable breaker. And that either a fusible link is needed to protect the wire or a direct connection to the buss. Is that correct? > > You're missing a diode at the cross-feed contactor. Yes, drawing fixed. > > Where are your batteries mounted? 2AWG is too big > for forward mounted batteries. Suggest 4AWG. It's an RV10 with both batteries in the rear. So I used 2AWG for the run to the starter and for the interbattery connections. The other battery has a (previously unmarked) 8AWG wire for the other run to the front. My analysis suggested that the 8AWG is enough for the 20amp Alt side of the circuit even in a crossfeed situation. Thanks again Bill "finishing up the panel wiring" Watson ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:51 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What is the type of this pin? Good Afternoon Overtorque, I thought I would have an answer for you. It looks very much like the pins used by Beechcraft to feed the ground and power to their wedge type internal instrument lights. They are on the ends which plug into group receptacles on the back of the panel. I have some somewhere, but can't find them or the Beech part number. Been trying for the last hour or so. The bad thing is that they cost about ten bucks apiece when purchased from Beechcraft. If I find the ones I have or can locate the Beech Part Number, I will post it here. Meanwhile, maybe this will jog someone else's memory. 'Lectric Bob, do you remember them during your time at Beech? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 10/2/2009 12:45:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, lezbnd@gmail.com writes: http://img42.imageshack.us/i/dsc00979fq.jpg/) (http://g.imageshack.us/img42/dsc00979fq.jpg/1/) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... At 10:17 AM 10/2/2009, you wrote: > > >Bob - > >I'm a lurker on this site, but am in progress on a Pa22-20 project >(certified). How difficult would it be to use Z-11 in a certified >aircraft and get a 337 for that purpose? Has anyone done that >recently? Looks perfect for the project. >M. Haught I have often fantasized about taking a nice ol' rag-wing piper and updating the electrical system with something like Z-13/8, all new lightweight hardware and an RG battery. I'm aware of no projects flying where one has successfully run the gauntlet for permission to do a good thing to an ageing aircraft. Several folks have proposed such upgrades and have received tentative blessings on things like the forest of tabs ground bus and fuse blocks. But those systems have yet to be completed and signed off for flight. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What is the type of this pin? At 12:42 PM 10/2/2009, you wrote: > >Hi All, > >who will be able to tell me what is the type of this connector? I >found it in a switch coming from a military aircraft. In order to >give a new life to the switch, I need to buy some pins....but I know >nothing about it. > >Thank you for your help A number of high-end manufacturers of switches (and relays, etc) are offering very robust, environmentally sealed devices that are electrically terminated IWTS (integrated wire termination system) by means of built-in sockets having female pins. The idea is not new. Patent 3717838 was issued in 1973 on this topic. There are no doubt earlier documents. An exemplar product line is illustrated starting on page A27 of http://tinyurl.com/ya22ub8 I did a search of IWTS in this pdf file and found a couple of switch lines offering that feature. I believe there are probably few sizes and styles of pins used across these product lines . . . but pins, extraction tools and installation tools are unique to the pins. I've not personally put my hands on any of these but we used a goodly number at Hawker-Beech. I didn't see any references to mating pin numbers in the EATON catalog. I did see a reference to M39029/1-101 pins for 20AWG wire for THAT particular part. You'll need to check your existing pins against the dimensions of similar pins (OR) get the part number of your switch and see what its catalog listing calls out for the mating pin. These wont be easy to find in small quantities but if you identify a part number, you can try Aircraft and Commercial Enterprises in Derby KS. They might have and be willing to supply you a small quantity of pins. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:39 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution >My thinking was the fuse is just protecting the wire to the pullable >breaker. The wire is 16AWG and the fuse a 15amp. Then the breaker >is a 5amp. But I think what you are telling me is that the fuse >could defeat the whole purpose of having the pullable breaker. And >that either a fusible link is needed to protect the wire or a direct >connection to the buss. Is that correct? Fuses are so much faster than breakers that you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A breaker. There's a reason for the fusible link depicted in the Z-figures. >It's an RV10 with both batteries in the rear. So I used 2AWG for >the run to the starter and for the interbattery connections. The >other battery has a (previously unmarked) 8AWG wire for the other >run to the front. >My analysis suggested that the 8AWG is enough for the 20amp Alt side >of the circuit even in a crossfeed situation. Do you intend to load the aux battery for cranking? If batteries are in the rear, then contactors are in the rear and crossfeed contactor is on firewall to give you a fat-terminal, power distribution point at the cross-feed contactor. Use 4AWG welding cable off each battery terminal to contactors and ground. 2AWG for run forward to the starter contactor. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:52 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: What is the type of this pin? From: "Overtorque" Hi all, Thank you very much for these input.... I made myself the extraction tool. I have to leave for the WE. Monday, I will take accurate size of the connector and the brand (if I can find it) of the switch. I wish a nice nice WE to all Overtorque Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266215#266215 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:10 PM PST US From: Bob Barrow Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 alternator wire guage?? I have the latest revision of Z14 (REV N 7/14/09) which shows that the Main Alternator (40 amp) has a 4 AWG B-lead. BUT the Aux Alternator (also 40 am p) has a 10 AWG B-lead. Is there any possible logic in this discrepancy. My calculations indicate that for a standard Lycoming set-up with main alte rnator at the front of the engine and the aux alternator on the rear of the engine 10 AWG should be more than enough for the B-leads for both=2C provi ding the battery is FWF. 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