Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
2. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
7. 08:47 AM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Steve Stearns)
8. 09:19 AM - SD-8 Installation Item ()
9. 09:59 AM - Battery capacity testing (Dan Brown)
10. 10:17 AM - Re: SD-8 Installation Item (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 10:42 AM - Re: Battery capacity testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 11:27 AM - Re: SD-8 Installation Item ()
14. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Tom Hanaway)
15. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Joe Dubner)
16. 12:24 PM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 12:24 PM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 12:48 PM - Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Joe Dubner)
19. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
20. 01:16 PM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Matt Prather)
21. 02:17 PM - high temp. tie wraps. (thomas sargent)
22. 03:34 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Jim Berry)
23. 03:49 PM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 04:14 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 04:51 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Ralph Finch)
27. 05:28 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (jtortho@aol.com)
28. 05:44 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Charlie England)
29. 06:42 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Gaylen Lerohl)
30. 07:16 PM - Re: Battery capacity testing (Dan Brown)
31. 10:55 PM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Werner Schneider)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution |
Ignorance perhaps. I remember considering the 'progressive transfer'
thing which I believe is specific and internal to the switch. Then I
went ahead and selected some lit rockers with the basic functions needed
(I thought). I may or may not have them documented correctly in the
diagram.
Do I have a problem here?
Bill
rckol wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> Just curious: Why have you wired SW01 and SW02 to disconnect both the alternator
and battery at the same time instead of using the progressive transfer scheme
in most of the Z diagrams?
>
> --------
> rck
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266525#266525
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution |
>> Fuses are so much faster than breakers that
>> you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A
>> breaker. There's a reason for the fusible
>> link depicted in the Z-figures.
>I must be back level on my printed out Z figs. The one I have has
>that circuit connected directly to buss but in either case I get the point.
Which figure are you referring to? I think I've
had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint
of a fuse-block since day-one . . .
>I'm going to add 2 fusible links (22AWG based) to the circuit and
>take the power directly from the power feeds.
Okay . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution |
At 11:22 PM 10/4/2009, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bill,
>
>Just curious: Why have you wired SW01 and SW02 to disconnect both
>the alternator and battery at the same time instead of using the
>progressive transfer scheme in most of the Z diagrams?
Many moons ago, before I located progressive
transfer switches from Carling to emulate the
split-rocker, the Z-figures suggested that battery
and alternator be brought ON and OFF together with
a 2-3 switch. Even if you choose to use fuse blocks,
the crowbar ov protection system called for an
alternator field breaker which doubled as a means
by which the alternator could be disabled for battery
only, ground maintenance operations or disabled
in flight if the regulator or alternator became
unruly.
There's no foundation in physics for not bringing
the alternator and battery on and off together for
normal operating conditions.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: 24V Heated Pitot |
At 12:48 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>
>In spite of my best efforts to avoid thread drift ...
The "drift" wasn't intended to persuade or dissuade
you of anything. It's a prophylactic measure to
ward off misunderstanding by some of 1799 other
readers who might believe that serious discussions
about heated-pitot tubes on single-engine aircraft
is a worthy topic for their attention as well. I
and others on the list will be pleased to help you
achieve your design goals. But the charter for
this List is to seek useful perspective of any
design goal based on physics, experience and
understanding.
>All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at
>all times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the
>Dynon EFIS requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude
>information. *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn
>an inadvertent icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider
>flying needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an emergency).
It's not possible to quantify "reliable".
The prudent FMEA calls for crafting a
Plan-B based on your Dynon system failing
for what ever reason. We know that you're a
careful pilot and will stay out of weather
conditions that would put you at risk.
So how does one handle an airplane
if the airspeed readings are unreliable?
It CAN become unreliable for a host of reasons
not related to ice on the pitot tube.
How about attitude and power control? Can
you stall your airplane without putting the
nose above the horizon? How difficult is
it to avoid over-speed?
How about a wing leveler that uses it's own
data sources? It's a much better needle-ball
aviator than people and if you give it GPS
course data, a damned good navigator too.
It doesn't need a pitot-static system and
leaves you free to concentrate on speed
and altitude issues.
One of my favorite teaching activities while
doing check rides with prospective renters at
1K1 was to show them how to keep their head
out of the cockpit in our busy traffic area
with lots of no-radio airplanes. It's good that one
has the skills to nail that airspeed, runway
centerline and cross the fence on target every time.
It's equally good to skillfully execute a short
approach from the downwind leg with high airspeeds
and maneuvers that would have your instructor
frowning if not yelling at you. It's the
unusual flight maneuvers that can be safely
conducted by staying WELL INSIDE the machine's
controllability envelope. That same skills and
understanding would do well by you if you
discovered that some bit of instrumentation
was broken for what ever reason. Skill and
understanding are a better substitute for
non-quantified "reliability" upon any single
piece of instrumentation.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: 24V Heated Pitot |
At 01:12 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>Joe, get yourself the newest 5.1.1 version of the software and hook
>up a GPS that will give you additional comfort as with that version
>the attitude is, in case of dyn. press. lost backed up with GPS
>speed. (Interesting to see on takeoff roll when a message tells you
>that before the pitot comes live.
Aha! A Plan-C . . . good show.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
>>> Fuses are so much faster than breakers that
>>> you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A
>>> breaker. There's a reason for the fusible
>>> link depicted in the Z-figures.
>> I must be back level on my printed out Z figs. The one I have has
>> that circuit connected directly to buss but in either case I get the
>> point.
>
> Which figure are you referring to? I think I've
> had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint
> of a fuse-block since day-one . . .
>
Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed
Turbocad awhile ago. The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main
Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf
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Subject: | Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... |
Bob and the group:
Quotes from previous exchange between me (>) and Bob (additional indent):
> ** >- Removed the primer (As I also removed it from the aircraft. This
> >might also be added back later in a more appropriately wired and
> >plumbed manner)
>
> Hmmmm . . . must be a REALLY easy-to-prop engine . . .
> **
Probably not. At least that's not what I'm assuming. I just won't be
priming it with an *electric* primer.
> ** >- Redefined the avionics ground bus to be an audio ground bus. My
> >Nav/Com uses a differential audio path allowing separate audio/power
> >grounds. All the avionics power grounds, with the exception of the
> >low-power intercom return, terminate at the PNL Gnd bus. All audio
> >grounds (including the intercom power ground) terminate at the Audio Gnd
bus.
> >- Reduced the number of connections tying the PNL ground to the
> >Audio ground as it no longer carries any significant current.
>
> Can't comment on this without having understood/crafted
> the system . . .
> **
In case you were interested in following up, I've attached my detailed
schematics. They don't (yet) reflect the intended change to pull the
regulator power though a fuse-link instead of a 20A fuse. If it's too
much to want to wade though that's fine (I often feel that way about it
too).
> ** >- Replaced the ANL with one sized to the existent alternator.
>
> okay . . . recall too that ANLs are VERY robust . . .
> you can go as small as ANL30 with plenty of headroom
> for 50A alternator.
>
> **
I believe my alternator is a 40A but I haven't yet pulled it off and had
a shop test it. The smallest B&C had when I ordered was 40A so I went
with that...
> ** >- Replaced the shunt with one sized to match the existent Ampmeter.
>
> You have a 50A alternator?
>
> **
I went with the 50A shunt only to match the range on the ammeter. At
some point I expect I will pull both the Ammeter and shunt and ebay them
as a pair so I figured it made sense for them to match... I should send
you a picture of my original shunt. It was home made (presumably by the
original builder) via wire, a large brass cotter pin, solder and
heat-shrink. It was within 10% but I wouldn't have wanted to overload it!
> ** Re-read the explanation for an E-bus in Appendix
> Z notes and chapter 17 on reliability. The E-bus
> is for maximizing a limited resource (battery energy
> stored) during alternator-out operations. It's also
> a plan-B during battery contactor failure. Highly
> recommended.
>
> **
Ok. Just re-read the section in Appendix Z (fresh download), will
re-read chapter 17 when I get back to the hangar (and my book). Once I
finish that, I need to refresh my load analysis and anticipated battery
size (including a fresh weight and balance which will be a while). It's
pretty typical with LongEZs (esp. with a starter which I no longer have)
to need nose ballast and this is often accomplished with an oversized
battery. Not sure where mine will come in as I don't trust the last
recorded weight and balance.
And from your other follow-up email:
> ** >- Removed the Battery Bus as I have nothing that would attach to it.
>
> Correction, how about the electronic ignition. It has
> its own power switch and is an excellent candidate
> for battery bus power. If you got bad smells in
> the cockpit you can power down the whole electrical
> system without reducing engine support. Fuel pump
> might run from battery bus too.
> **
Hmmm, Given your suggestion above, I'm now considering using a
fuse-link from the always hot side of the contactor (my current "battery
bus" such as it is...) to the electronic ignition. This leads to an
interesting dilemma. The manual for my electronic ignition calls out a
15A fuse protecting 18AWG wire. I presume the seemingly excess fuse
size is to provide headroom for surge or pulse current. IF that is the
case, I would think a fuse-link appropriately sized for 18AWG wire (i.e.
22AWG) would be appropriate protection (and better than a 15A fuse).
Your thoughts?
I like the idea of keeping redundant sources of ignition if I have a
contactor failure. However, if I decide to also put the fuel pump on
the battery bus, then I could either use another fuse-link for it (a
24AWG link seems appropriate) off the always hot side of the contactor
or actually use a real fuse block battery bus for both the elec.
ignition and fuel pump.
OR (I don't think I need both approaches...)
I could just put in the alternate feed path to the endurance bus (which,
in my case, is the only bus with manual load shedding). It seems like I
could use the 16AWG fuse-link (as on Z12) as the protection for the
(proposed by me) panel-mounted switch/breaker for the alternate feed.
However, this would required me to either find an isolation diode
capable of my full electrical load (inc. lights). And, of course,
requires that I also install the regulator feed fuse link to the
switched output of my contactor (as I previously pondered) rather than
downstream of the diode. Or, I need to bite the bullet and implement
both a main bus and endurance bus (per Z11) so your AEC9001 would be
enough to handle the endurance bus loads.
Given that I haven't yet re-read chapter 17 or refreshed my load
analysis, this may change. But as of now, I think the approach that
best meets current objectives is to use fuse-links for the elect.
ignition and possibly the fuel pump (not sure how I feel about the fuel
pump switch being hot when the master switch is off. I guess I feel ok
if I clearly indicate that on the labeling) from the always hot side of
the contactor. And to not implement the endurance bus approach until I
enter the "enhancement" project down the road.
Best regards and thanks again for your input,
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
**
**
Message 8
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Subject: | SD-8 Installation Item |
I installed my SD-8 and then questioned whether the output line from the
relay to the bus was in fact correct.
I ran the line from the relay to the Master Bus (satisfies the simple B
& C drawing).
The questions: 1. Given my All electric Z-13/8 installation (dual EE
ignition) + backup battery, is it wiser to run the supply lead to the
Essential Bus rather than the Master Bus? 2. If I do that will the SD-8
still get remaining charge to the batteries?
Assumptions: Under use of the backup alternator (for whatever reason),
the majority of the primary bus items would be turned off prior to
flipping the switch on the SD-8.
Thanks,
Glenn
Message 9
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Subject: | Battery capacity testing |
I fly a Mooney M20F which has a Concorde RG battery installed
(RG-35AXC). Concorde (as well as Bob, of course) recommend periodic
capacity testing--after 2 years, and every year thereafter.
The procedure called for in Concorde's ICA
(http://www.concordebattery.com/otherpdf/IFCA1.pdf, page 8) is to load
the battery at the 1-hour rate (33 amps, in my case), and see how long
it takes for the voltage to drop below 10 volts. If that takes less
than 51 minutes (85% of 1 hour) on a fully-charged battery, it is to
be replaced.
So the question is, how can I uniformly (and, ideally, inexpensively)
load the battery to 33 amps? I'd think that the loading would be
fairly critical to get a valid result. Of course, I could do the math
easily enough if the load were some other constant value (say, 30 or
35 amps), but I don't think I'd get a very good result with a load
that changed over time (like using a light bulb), since it'd be hard
to integrate that into total amp-hours.
I've looked at West Mountain Radio's CBA-III
(http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm), but to work for this
purpose it would also need their add-on amplifier accessory
(http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBAAmplifier.htm), bringing the
total cost to almost $900.
What other options are out there?
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
-- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: SD-8 Installation Item |
At 11:13 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>
>I installed my SD-8 and then questioned whether the output line from the
>relay to the bus was in fact correct.
>
>I ran the line from the relay to the Master Bus (satisfies the simple B
>& C drawing).
>
>The questions: 1. Given my All electric Z-13/8 installation (dual EE
>ignition) + backup battery, is it wiser to run the supply lead to the
>Essential Bus rather than the Master Bus? 2. If I do that will the SD-8
>still get remaining charge to the batteries?
>
>Assumptions: Under use of the backup alternator (for whatever reason),
>the majority of the primary bus items would be turned off prior to
>flipping the switch on the SD-8.
The SD8 as the ONLY alternator goes to the main bus.
An SD8 as a backup alternator goes to the battery
and e-bus loads are limited to 8A max. This lets
you fly with unlimited endurance with the main bus
down and the battery contactor off.
Now you have 100% of energy stored in battery
available for approach to landing by turning the
battery master back on.
B&C's recipe for success is for different dish.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Battery capacity testing |
At 11:55 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>
>I fly a Mooney M20F which has a Concorde RG battery installed
>(RG-35AXC). Concorde (as well as Bob, of course) recommend periodic
>capacity testing--after 2 years, and every year thereafter.
>
<snip>
>I've looked at West Mountain Radio's CBA-III
>(http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm), but to work for this
>purpose it would also need their add-on amplifier accessory
>(http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBAAmplifier.htm), bringing the
>total cost to almost $900.
Yeah . . . lots of overkill if YOUR are interested
in endurance AS INSTALLED in YOUR airplane with YOUR
choice of equipment items operational.
The "approved" testing protocols come from a bunch
of bureaucrats who decided some years ago that
EVERYBODY's airplane should be configured and
maintained to get on the ground in 30 minutes
or less after engine driven power goes away.
How about this? YOU decide what your
alternator-out endurance target is. Wouldn't
you feel better about 1 hour? How about two
hours? Next make up a list of electro-whizzies
you plan to leave ON (and those you can't turn
off) after the LV warning light comes on.
During some CAVU cross country, deliberately
put your airplane into a failed alternator
condition and start your stop-watch. 11 volts
is a better battery depleted target. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/28AH_12V_Capacity_vs_Load.gif
Note that by the time a 12 lead-acid battery
drops to 11.0 volts, the curve is VERY steep
and 10.0 volts is not far behind.
When your battery drops to 11.0 volts, note
the time it took to get down to that value.
Did that meet your design goal for battery only
endurance?
No? (1) replace battery. (2) revise electrical
load for alternator out operations or (3)
revise endurance design goals. Or some combination
of the 3.
I think it's much better that the owner/operator
craft, test and maintain personally generated
endurance goals. Your chances of understanding
and operating your airplane with confidence is
greatly improved.
After 11.0V is achieved, turn the alternator
back on. Turn on maximum number of electro-whizzies
for 10 minutes or so to mitigate the initial
inrush of battery recharge currents. After 10
minutes, reduce to minimum required for completing
the flight. If you have a battery maintainer to
hook to you battery in the hangar, it's always
a good thing whether or not you just tested
the battery.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution |
>> Which figure are you referring to? I think I've
>> had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint
>> of a fuse-block since day-one . . .
>Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed
>Turbocad awhile ago. The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main
>Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf
Aha! That's an all CB airplane . . . so yes, the breaker goes
right to the bus along with ALL OTHER BREAKERS. If you use
a fuse block, then specialized feeder treatment for the
alternator field breaker is indicated.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 13
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Subject: | SD-8 Installation Item |
Do Not Archive
Excellent!
Thanks Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Installation Item
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 11:13 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>
>I installed my SD-8 and then questioned whether the output line from
the
>relay to the bus was in fact correct.
>
>I ran the line from the relay to the Master Bus (satisfies the simple B
>& C drawing).
>
>The questions: 1. Given my All electric Z-13/8 installation (dual EE
>ignition) + backup battery, is it wiser to run the supply lead to the
>Essential Bus rather than the Master Bus? 2. If I do that will the SD-8
>still get remaining charge to the batteries?
>
>Assumptions: Under use of the backup alternator (for whatever reason),
>the majority of the primary bus items would be turned off prior to
>flipping the switch on the SD-8.
The SD8 as the ONLY alternator goes to the main bus.
An SD8 as a backup alternator goes to the battery
and e-bus loads are limited to 8A max. This lets
you fly with unlimited endurance with the main bus
down and the battery contactor off.
Now you have 100% of energy stored in battery
available for approach to landing by turning the
battery master back on.
B&C's recipe for success is for different dish.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution |
OK, I just got lost. I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the
comments...
Z-13 shows fusible link and circuit breaker for alt fld between main power
bus and master switch.
Z-14 has just circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and master
switch.
Z-19 has just fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and master
switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch).
I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the fusible link
helps a fuse in the fuse block. Especially z-14 vs. z-13 and z-19.
Thanks,
Tom Hanaway
Also working on an rv-10
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>> Which figure are you referring to? I think I've
>> had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint
>> of a fuse-block since day-one . . .
>Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed
>Turbocad awhile ago. The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main
>Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf
Aha! That's an all CB airplane . . . so yes, the breaker goes
right to the bus along with ALL OTHER BREAKERS. If you use
a fuse block, then specialized feeder treatment for the
alternator field breaker is indicated.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: 24V Heated Pitot |
Thank you, Werner. I /do/ have that version of software installed with
a GPS connected. I /have/ seen the warning message pop up (mostly on
landing roll -- rather disconcerting) and it does give me additional
comfort but as in all things involving proprietary (closed to scrutiny)
software and sketchy specifications, I'm not sure if that replaces the
need for a heated pitot tube in my application.
Maybe I'll call Dynon and ask.
Best,
Joe
Werner Schneider wrote:
>
>
> Joe, get yourself the newest 5.1.1 version of the software and hook up a
> GPS that will give you additional comfort as with that version the
> attitude is, in case of dyn. press. lost backed up with GPS speed.
> (Interesting to see on takeoff roll when a message tells you that before
> the pitot comes live.
>
> Werner
>>
>> All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at all
>> times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the Dynon EFIS
>> requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude information.
>> *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn an inadvertent
>> icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider flying
>> needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an emergency).
>>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... |
>>*
>Hmmm, Given your suggestion above, I'm now considering using a
>fuse-link from the always hot side of the contactor (my current
>"battery bus" such as it is...) to the electronic ignition. This
>leads to an interesting dilemma. The manual for my electronic
>ignition calls out a 15A fuse protecting 18AWG wire. I presume the
>seemingly excess fuse size is to provide headroom for surge or pulse
>current. IF that is the case, I would think a fuse-link
>appropriately sized for 18AWG wire (i.e. 22AWG) would be appropriate
>protection (and better than a 15A fuse).
>Your thoughts?
Let's not scatter fusible links around for any
applications other than the slots suggested in
the z-figures. How much current does your electronic
ignition really draw? I'd be amazed if it were greater
than 3A under worst case conditions. 3A is a TON
of ignition energy.
>I like the idea of keeping redundant sources of ignition if I have a
>contactor failure.
You have a magneto. That's your redundant ignition.
The goal now is to supply a max-reliabilty, never
turned off supply for the electronic system. The
battery bus is the most stable, all-conditions source
of electrical energy.
> However, if I decide to also put the fuel pump on the battery
> bus, then I could either use another fuse-link for it (a 24AWG link
> seems appropriate) off the always hot side of the contactor or
> actually use a real fuse block battery bus for both the elec.
> ignition and fuel pump.
No, ordinary fuses are just fine.
>I could just put in the alternate feed path to the endurance bus
>(which, in my case, is the only bus with manual load shedding). It
>seems like I could use the 16AWG fuse-link (as on Z12) as the
>protection for the (proposed by me) panel-mounted switch/breaker for
>the alternate feed.
Why not wire it per the Z-figures?
>Given that I haven't yet re-read chapter 17 or refreshed my load
>analysis, this may change. But as of now, I think the approach that
>best meets current objectives is to use fuse-links for the elect.
>ignition and possibly the fuel pump (not sure how I feel about the
>fuel pump switch being hot when the master switch is off.
If your magneto switch is left ON after the battery
is OFF, it's hot too. This is what check lists are
for.
Keep in mind that the z-figures are, in some cases,
20+ years old. They've been combed and sifted for
"gotchas" while optimizing the failure mode effects
analysis with the minimum parts count.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... |
At 10:43 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>Bob and the group:
>
>>**
>In case you were interested in following up, I've attached my
>detailed schematics.
I printed out your set of drawings on nice big
11 x 17 sheets with every intention of doing
a well considered review . . . but hit the
brick wall with the interstate/county road/
cow-path wiring diagram. These are exceedingly
difficult to read for useful operational and
FMEA information. The drawings for Cessna,
Beechcraft, King Radio, AND the 'Connection
were done that way for good reasons.
Sorry I can't be of more service . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: 24V Heated Pitot |
Thanks, Bob. So how would I meet my design goal of reliable *attitude*
information with a Dynon EFIS during inadvertent flight into icing
conditions? (For sake of discussion, I'll quantify reliable as pitch
within 2 degrees of true, an MTBF of 2000 hours, and an indication of
failure when it happens (no insidious failures). Roll I don't care as
much about as I can maintain wings level with an electric turn coordinator.)
My plan for dealing with failure of the EFIS is to fly
needle-ball-and-airspeed using a TC, standby altimeter, and standby
airspeed indicator. But that's not a workable plan if combined with a
simultaneous failure of the pitot system due to icing and the standby
airspeed indicator is inop too. Hence my requirement for a heated pitot.
While a wing-leveler autopilot is a good thing, I would also need a
pitch-axis autopilot and both autopilots would need to be independent of
the Dynon EFIS. Alas, there goes the (relatively) inexpensive Dynon
pitch and roll autopilot options. Other solutions would be more
expen$ive, heavier, and require more panel space.
So why not a heated pitot to make "plan A" more robust and "plan B"
(standby instruments) possible?
--
Joe
Long-EZ flying
RV-8A building (wings)
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 12:48 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> In spite of my best efforts to avoid thread drift ...
>
> The "drift" wasn't intended to persuade or dissuade
> you of anything. It's a prophylactic measure to
> ward off misunderstanding by some of 1799 other
> readers who might believe that serious discussions
> about heated-pitot tubes on single-engine aircraft
> is a worthy topic for their attention as well. I
> and others on the list will be pleased to help you
> achieve your design goals. But the charter for
> this List is to seek useful perspective of any
> design goal based on physics, experience and
> understanding.
>
>> All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at all
>> times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the Dynon EFIS
>> requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude information.
>> *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn an inadvertent
>> icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider flying
>> needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an emergency).
>
> It's not possible to quantify "reliable".
> The prudent FMEA calls for crafting a
> Plan-B based on your Dynon system failing
> for what ever reason. We know that you're a
> careful pilot and will stay out of weather
> conditions that would put you at risk.
> So how does one handle an airplane
> if the airspeed readings are unreliable?
>
> It CAN become unreliable for a host of reasons
> not related to ice on the pitot tube.
> How about attitude and power control? Can
> you stall your airplane without putting the
> nose above the horizon? How difficult is
> it to avoid over-speed?
>
> How about a wing leveler that uses it's own
> data sources? It's a much better needle-ball
> aviator than people and if you give it GPS
> course data, a damned good navigator too.
> It doesn't need a pitot-static system and
> leaves you free to concentrate on speed
> and altitude issues.
>
> One of my favorite teaching activities while
> doing check rides with prospective renters at
> 1K1 was to show them how to keep their head
> out of the cockpit in our busy traffic area
> with lots of no-radio airplanes. It's good that one
> has the skills to nail that airspeed, runway
> centerline and cross the fence on target every time.
>
> It's equally good to skillfully execute a short
> approach from the downwind leg with high airspeeds
> and maneuvers that would have your instructor
> frowning if not yelling at you. It's the
> unusual flight maneuvers that can be safely
> conducted by staying WELL INSIDE the machine's
> controllability envelope. That same skills and
> understanding would do well by you if you
> discovered that some bit of instrumentation
> was broken for what ever reason. Skill and
> understanding are a better substitute for
> non-quantified "reliability" upon any single
> piece of instrumentation.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ---------------------------------------
Message 19
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|
Subject: | Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution |
I know you want Bob's response but let me see if I can share my new
found knowledge regarding the Z13 vs. the Z14.
The Z13 "Main Distribution Bus" is a fuse panel, that is, only fuses are
used for circuit protection. Because you need a breaker for the Crowbar
OV Protect module, a fusible link is used to protect the wire that runs
to the breaker. You don't want to connect the breaker to a fuse because
the fuse will blow before the breaker breaks. The fusible link will
blow slowly and allow the breaker to function as it must for the Crowbar
module to work.
The Z14 "Main Distribution Bus" is a regular bus bar with breakers
attached. In that case there is no wire running to a breaker to
protect. The breaker required for the OV Protection in the LR3
controller is simply attached directly to the bus bar which is the "Main
Distribution Bus".
Makes sense to me now!
Bill
Tom Hanaway wrote:
>
> OK, I just got lost. I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the
> comments...
>
> Z-13 shows fusible link _and _circuit breaker for alt fld between main
> power bus and master switch.
>
> Z-14 has _just_ circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and
> master switch.
>
> Z-19 has _just_ fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and
> master switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch).
>
> I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the fusible
> link helps a fuse in the fuse block. Especially z-14 vs. z-13 and z-19.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom Hanaway
>
> Also working on an rv-10
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:42 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution
>
>
>
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Which figure are you referring to? I think I've
>
> >> had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint
>
> >> of a fuse-block since day-one . . .
>
> >Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed
>
> >Turbocad awhile ago. The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main
>
> >Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus
>
> >http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf
>
>
>
> Aha! That's an all CB airplane . . . so yes, the breaker goes
>
> right to the bus along with ALL OTHER BREAKERS. If you use
>
> a fuse block, then specialized feeder treatment for the
>
> alternator field breaker is indicated.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
>
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
>
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
>
> ( )
>
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: 24V Heated Pitot |
I suspect Dynon might wash their hands of the whole thing by saying
something like "the use of our pitot or display for the primary instrument
for flight in icing condition is not recommended."
I'll be interested in hearing back what they say..
Matt-
>
> Thank you, Werner. I /do/ have that version of software installed with
> a GPS connected. I /have/ seen the warning message pop up (mostly on
> landing roll -- rather disconcerting) and it does give me additional
> comfort but as in all things involving proprietary (closed to scrutiny)
> software and sketchy specifications, I'm not sure if that replaces the
> need for a heated pitot tube in my application.
>
> Maybe I'll call Dynon and ask.
>
> Best,
> Joe
>
>
> Werner Schneider wrote:
>> <glastar@gmx.net>
>>
>>
>> Joe, get yourself the newest 5.1.1 version of the software and hook up a
>> GPS that will give you additional comfort as with that version the
>> attitude is, in case of dyn. press. lost backed up with GPS speed.
>> (Interesting to see on takeoff roll when a message tells you that before
>> the pitot comes live.
>>
>> Werner
>>>
>>> All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at all
>>> times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the Dynon EFIS
>>> requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude information.
>>> *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn an inadvertent
>>> icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider flying
>>> needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an emergency).
>>>
>
>
Message 21
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Subject: | high temp. tie wraps. |
I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that can be
used under the cowling. Can some one tell me where to get these things?
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: high temp. tie wraps. |
Look at steinair.com.
Jim Berry
RV10
N15JB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266689#266689
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution |
At 01:43 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>OK, I just got lost. I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the
>comments...
>Z-13 shows fusible link and circuit breaker for alt fld between main
>power bus and master switch.
Yes, Z-13 is a fuse-block bus, it COULD be a Circuit Breaker
bus in which case it would look more like Z-14
>Z-14 has just circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and
>master switch.
. . . which IS a circuit breaker bus system.
>Z-19 has just fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and
>master switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch).
>I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the
>fusible link helps a fuse in the fuse block. Especially z-14 vs.
>z-13 and z-19.
Z-19 is also a fuse block system which means that it's
impractical to use one of the block-mounted fuses to
protect the extended feed-line to a crowbar tripped field
breaker. Hence the fusible link upstream of the 5A breaker.
It doesn't matter WHERE the breaker is along that pathway.
Bottom line is that no link is needed when the field supply
breaker ties directly to the bus with other breakers. When
fuse blocks are used, the EXTENSION of the bus to a remotely
mounted breaker gets ROBUST protection in the form of a fusible
link.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: 24V Heated Pitot |
At 02:34 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>
>Thanks, Bob. So how would I meet my design goal of reliable
>*attitude* information with a Dynon EFIS during inadvertent flight
>into icing conditions?
> (For sake of discussion, I'll quantify reliable as pitch within 2
> degrees of true, an MTBF of 2000 hours, and an indication of
> failure when it happens (no insidious failures). Roll I don't care
> as much about as I can maintain wings level with an electric turn coordinator.)
GPS aided wing leveler would do it for you. I think
TruTrak has a version that adds the turning rate
indicator on the panel.
>My plan for dealing with failure of the EFIS is to fly
>needle-ball-and-airspeed using a TC, standby altimeter, and standby
>airspeed indicator. But that's not a workable plan if combined with
>a simultaneous failure of the pitot system due to icing and the
>standby airspeed indicator is inop too. Hence my requirement for a
>heated pitot.
It's not hard to find ice free locations for good
static pressure data. Which is the foundation for
pitch management. Further if altitude change rate
is zero, then actual IAS is not terribly important
data for flight safety. GPS ground speed and course
readings and/or compass will get you the recommended
180 degree turn to exit icing.
>While a wing-leveler autopilot is a good thing, I would also need a
>pitch-axis autopilot and both autopilots would need to be
>independent of the Dynon EFIS. Alas, there goes the (relatively)
>inexpensive Dynon pitch and roll autopilot options. Other solutions
>would be more expen$ive, heavier, and require more panel space.
???? How much time do you expect to spend out of
sight of the ground in this airplane? How much of that
will be in the dark? If you're willing to fly needle-
ball-and-airspeed as a backup for electronics, then
needle-ball-altitude-VSI-and-gps data are excellent
expansions of that capability without adding weight,
expense or taxation of panel space. The wing
leveler with GPS augmentation is a HUGE reduction
in workload while you deal with matters of pitch,
power and navigation.
What is your personal modus operandi for dealing
with the first perceptions of icing? If it's even
a possibility, do you have a flashlight or leading
edge ice light that will let you watch the place
where ice is likely to be seen first?
>So why not a heated pitot to make "plan A" more robust and "plan B"
>(standby instruments) possible?
Because by the time you get icing severe enough to
put pitot data at risk, the next level puts
the airplane at risk. If your modus operandi calls
for ASAP exit from icing conditions at first
detection, then pitot heat is superfluous. This because
your FMEA and Plan-B using other equipment already
on board is quite robust even without airspeed data.
If pitot heat offers ANY encouragement for pushing
on to "see how much worse it gets" then I'll suggest
it's more a hazard than help.
I cringe when overhearing a C210 pilot talking to
his hangar mates about the windshield patch,
hot prop, boots and pitot tube heater, "Man, I
can take this bird anywhere!" I prefer to (1) go
flight into known icing cert or (2) get the hell out
fast. The risks for anything in between are
higher and perhaps incalculable. JUST heating
the pitot tube is a very tiny reduction in
risk.
Bob . . .
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: high temp. tie wraps. |
At 04:15 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote:
>I understand that there are high temperature
>tolerant tie wraps that can be used under the
>cowling. Can some one tell me where to get these things?
They are Tefzel tie wraps. About $2 each.
Consider Dacron string ties. Works good, lasts
a long time and is really cheap.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 26
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Subject: | high temp. tie wraps. |
http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page206.html is one source.
Ralph Finch
Davis, California
RV-9A QB-SA
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
thomas sargent
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:16 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps.
I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that can
be used under the cowling. Can some one tell me where to get these
things?
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly
Message 27
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Subject: | Re: high temp. tie wraps. |
I do love the Mcmaster hardware store.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#harsh-environment-wire-ties/=3xmqb5
JIm Timoney
-----Original Message-----
From: thomas sargent <sarg314@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:15 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps.
I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that can be used
under the cowling.? Can some one tell me where to get these things?
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly
Message 28
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Subject: | Re: high temp. tie wraps. |
thomas sargent wrote:
> I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that
> can be used under the cowling. Can some one tell me where to get
> these things?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly
Unless you're putting them where they are exposed to the radiant heat of
the exhaust pipes, just about any UV resistant ones will work ok (at
least in my experience).
Charlie
Message 29
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Subject: | Re: high temp. tie wraps. |
Terminaltown is another source:
http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page206.html
Gaylen Lerohl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps.
> <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>
> thomas sargent wrote:
>> I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that can
>> be used under the cowling. Can some one tell me where to get these
>> things?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly
>
> Unless you're putting them where they are exposed to the radiant heat of
> the exhaust pipes, just about any UV resistant ones will work ok (at least
> in my experience).
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
Message 30
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Subject: | Re: Battery capacity testing |
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Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> During some CAVU cross country, deliberately
> put your airplane into a failed alternator
> condition and start your stop-watch. 11 volts
Well, I've inadvertently done this (and due to the lack of active
low-voltage warning, since rectified, didn't realize it), and I lasted
about 3 hours before the GNS-430 shut down. Not realizing that the
alternator was inop, I was running ordinary daytime equipment.
Interestingly, it was my altitude encoder that was first to go (got a
number of calls from ATC that they weren't picking up my Mode C
readout). After that, the display on my engine monitor (instrument
itself kept working, but the display was dark). The KX-155 lasted the
longest before going dark.
Given my ordinary daytime system load of 10-12 amps, the battery would
have to be very far gone indeed before it would give me less than an
hour, and even 2 hours would only be about 2/3 of its rated capacity
(well below the point where I should, according to the manufacturer,
discard the battery).
With normal daytime loads, and the battery at full capacity, empirical
observation and calculations agree that I get about 3 hours. At 85%
capacity, the point where the ICAs specify battery replacement, that
would leave 2.5 hours. I'm not going to have "duration of fuel aboard"
as my battery life (and never will on the Mooney without shedding _lots_
of load--fuel capacity is 6-7 hours), but that would give plenty of time
to land. Now that I have the flashing red light for low voltage, I'll
know about a problem right away, too.
What all this doesn't tell me is the health of the battery on an ongoing
basis. I'd think there should be a better way to test this than
repeatedly failing the alternator in flight.
- --
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
-- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
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Subject: | Re: 24V Heated Pitot |
Hi Joe,
I think it is down to your mission profile, I would avoid icing
condition at all if possible but might go through a thin layer of
stratus occasional, I did test the GPS assist in flight (hooking of the
pitot line) and it worked quite well (stable attitude reference all the
time). However I have the Dynon heated pitot with AoA installed as well
(had a 5812 before). I had some thin layer of rim ice skimming under a
stratus layer some times but I try to avoid these conditions as without
de-icing on my plane/prop I feel not safe enough. A friend of mine even
hooked two Dynons on different pitots in order to have redundancy.
Again your mission will dictate what you want I would say.
br Werner
Joe Dubner wrote:
>
> Thank you, Werner. I /do/ have that version of software installed
> with a GPS connected. I /have/ seen the warning message pop up
> (mostly on landing roll -- rather disconcerting) and it does give me
> additional comfort but as in all things involving proprietary (closed
> to scrutiny) software and sketchy specifications, I'm not sure if that
> replaces the need for a heated pitot tube in my application.
>
> Maybe I'll call Dynon and ask.
>
> Best,
> Joe
>
>
> Werner Schneider wrote:
>> <glastar@gmx.net>
>>
>>
>> Joe, get yourself the newest 5.1.1 version of the software and hook
>> up a GPS that will give you additional comfort as with that version
>> the attitude is, in case of dyn. press. lost backed up with GPS
>> speed. (Interesting to see on takeoff roll when a message tells you
>> that before the pitot comes live.
>>
>> Werner
>>>
>>> All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at
>>> all times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the
>>> Dynon EFIS requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude
>>> information. *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn
>>> an inadvertent icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider
>>> flying needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an
>>> emergency).
>>>
>
>
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