---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/05/09: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 2. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 7. 08:47 AM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Steve Stearns) 8. 09:19 AM - SD-8 Installation Item () 9. 09:59 AM - Battery capacity testing (Dan Brown) 10. 10:17 AM - Re: SD-8 Installation Item (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 10:42 AM - Re: Battery capacity testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 11:27 AM - Re: SD-8 Installation Item () 14. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Tom Hanaway) 15. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Joe Dubner) 16. 12:24 PM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 12:24 PM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 12:48 PM - Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Joe Dubner) 19. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 20. 01:16 PM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Matt Prather) 21. 02:17 PM - high temp. tie wraps. (thomas sargent) 22. 03:34 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Jim Berry) 23. 03:49 PM - Re: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 04:14 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 04:51 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Ralph Finch) 27. 05:28 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (jtortho@aol.com) 28. 05:44 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Charlie England) 29. 06:42 PM - Re: high temp. tie wraps. (Gaylen Lerohl) 30. 07:16 PM - Re: Battery capacity testing (Dan Brown) 31. 10:55 PM - Re: Re: 24V Heated Pitot (Werner Schneider) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:42 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution Ignorance perhaps. I remember considering the 'progressive transfer' thing which I believe is specific and internal to the switch. Then I went ahead and selected some lit rockers with the basic functions needed (I thought). I may or may not have them documented correctly in the diagram. Do I have a problem here? Bill rckol wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > Just curious: Why have you wired SW01 and SW02 to disconnect both the alternator and battery at the same time instead of using the progressive transfer scheme in most of the Z diagrams? > > -------- > rck > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266525#266525 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:15 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution >> Fuses are so much faster than breakers that >> you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A >> breaker. There's a reason for the fusible >> link depicted in the Z-figures. >I must be back level on my printed out Z figs. The one I have has >that circuit connected directly to buss but in either case I get the point. Which figure are you referring to? I think I've had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint of a fuse-block since day-one . . . >I'm going to add 2 fusible links (22AWG based) to the circuit and >take the power directly from the power feeds. Okay . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution At 11:22 PM 10/4/2009, you wrote: > >Hi Bill, > >Just curious: Why have you wired SW01 and SW02 to disconnect both >the alternator and battery at the same time instead of using the >progressive transfer scheme in most of the Z diagrams? Many moons ago, before I located progressive transfer switches from Carling to emulate the split-rocker, the Z-figures suggested that battery and alternator be brought ON and OFF together with a 2-3 switch. Even if you choose to use fuse blocks, the crowbar ov protection system called for an alternator field breaker which doubled as a means by which the alternator could be disabled for battery only, ground maintenance operations or disabled in flight if the regulator or alternator became unruly. There's no foundation in physics for not bringing the alternator and battery on and off together for normal operating conditions. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V Heated Pitot At 12:48 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote: > >In spite of my best efforts to avoid thread drift ... The "drift" wasn't intended to persuade or dissuade you of anything. It's a prophylactic measure to ward off misunderstanding by some of 1799 other readers who might believe that serious discussions about heated-pitot tubes on single-engine aircraft is a worthy topic for their attention as well. I and others on the list will be pleased to help you achieve your design goals. But the charter for this List is to seek useful perspective of any design goal based on physics, experience and understanding. >All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at >all times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the >Dynon EFIS requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude >information. *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn >an inadvertent icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider >flying needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an emergency). It's not possible to quantify "reliable". The prudent FMEA calls for crafting a Plan-B based on your Dynon system failing for what ever reason. We know that you're a careful pilot and will stay out of weather conditions that would put you at risk. So how does one handle an airplane if the airspeed readings are unreliable? It CAN become unreliable for a host of reasons not related to ice on the pitot tube. How about attitude and power control? Can you stall your airplane without putting the nose above the horizon? How difficult is it to avoid over-speed? How about a wing leveler that uses it's own data sources? It's a much better needle-ball aviator than people and if you give it GPS course data, a damned good navigator too. It doesn't need a pitot-static system and leaves you free to concentrate on speed and altitude issues. One of my favorite teaching activities while doing check rides with prospective renters at 1K1 was to show them how to keep their head out of the cockpit in our busy traffic area with lots of no-radio airplanes. It's good that one has the skills to nail that airspeed, runway centerline and cross the fence on target every time. It's equally good to skillfully execute a short approach from the downwind leg with high airspeeds and maneuvers that would have your instructor frowning if not yelling at you. It's the unusual flight maneuvers that can be safely conducted by staying WELL INSIDE the machine's controllability envelope. That same skills and understanding would do well by you if you discovered that some bit of instrumentation was broken for what ever reason. Skill and understanding are a better substitute for non-quantified "reliability" upon any single piece of instrumentation. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V Heated Pitot At 01:12 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote: > > >Joe, get yourself the newest 5.1.1 version of the software and hook >up a GPS that will give you additional comfort as with that version >the attitude is, in case of dyn. press. lost backed up with GPS >speed. (Interesting to see on takeoff roll when a message tells you >that before the pitot comes live. Aha! A Plan-C . . . good show. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:18 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >>> Fuses are so much faster than breakers that >>> you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A >>> breaker. There's a reason for the fusible >>> link depicted in the Z-figures. >> I must be back level on my printed out Z figs. The one I have has >> that circuit connected directly to buss but in either case I get the >> point. > > Which figure are you referring to? I think I've > had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint > of a fuse-block since day-one . . . > Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed Turbocad awhile ago. The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:28 AM PST US From: Steve Stearns Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... Bob and the group: Quotes from previous exchange between me (>) and Bob (additional indent): > ** >- Removed the primer (As I also removed it from the aircraft. This > >might also be added back later in a more appropriately wired and > >plumbed manner) > > Hmmmm . . . must be a REALLY easy-to-prop engine . . . > ** Probably not. At least that's not what I'm assuming. I just won't be priming it with an *electric* primer. > ** >- Redefined the avionics ground bus to be an audio ground bus. My > >Nav/Com uses a differential audio path allowing separate audio/power > >grounds. All the avionics power grounds, with the exception of the > >low-power intercom return, terminate at the PNL Gnd bus. All audio > >grounds (including the intercom power ground) terminate at the Audio Gnd bus. > >- Reduced the number of connections tying the PNL ground to the > >Audio ground as it no longer carries any significant current. > > Can't comment on this without having understood/crafted > the system . . . > ** In case you were interested in following up, I've attached my detailed schematics. They don't (yet) reflect the intended change to pull the regulator power though a fuse-link instead of a 20A fuse. If it's too much to want to wade though that's fine (I often feel that way about it too). > ** >- Replaced the ANL with one sized to the existent alternator. > > okay . . . recall too that ANLs are VERY robust . . . > you can go as small as ANL30 with plenty of headroom > for 50A alternator. > > ** I believe my alternator is a 40A but I haven't yet pulled it off and had a shop test it. The smallest B&C had when I ordered was 40A so I went with that... > ** >- Replaced the shunt with one sized to match the existent Ampmeter. > > You have a 50A alternator? > > ** I went with the 50A shunt only to match the range on the ammeter. At some point I expect I will pull both the Ammeter and shunt and ebay them as a pair so I figured it made sense for them to match... I should send you a picture of my original shunt. It was home made (presumably by the original builder) via wire, a large brass cotter pin, solder and heat-shrink. It was within 10% but I wouldn't have wanted to overload it! > ** Re-read the explanation for an E-bus in Appendix > Z notes and chapter 17 on reliability. The E-bus > is for maximizing a limited resource (battery energy > stored) during alternator-out operations. It's also > a plan-B during battery contactor failure. Highly > recommended. > > ** Ok. Just re-read the section in Appendix Z (fresh download), will re-read chapter 17 when I get back to the hangar (and my book). Once I finish that, I need to refresh my load analysis and anticipated battery size (including a fresh weight and balance which will be a while). It's pretty typical with LongEZs (esp. with a starter which I no longer have) to need nose ballast and this is often accomplished with an oversized battery. Not sure where mine will come in as I don't trust the last recorded weight and balance. And from your other follow-up email: > ** >- Removed the Battery Bus as I have nothing that would attach to it. > > Correction, how about the electronic ignition. It has > its own power switch and is an excellent candidate > for battery bus power. If you got bad smells in > the cockpit you can power down the whole electrical > system without reducing engine support. Fuel pump > might run from battery bus too. > ** Hmmm, Given your suggestion above, I'm now considering using a fuse-link from the always hot side of the contactor (my current "battery bus" such as it is...) to the electronic ignition. This leads to an interesting dilemma. The manual for my electronic ignition calls out a 15A fuse protecting 18AWG wire. I presume the seemingly excess fuse size is to provide headroom for surge or pulse current. IF that is the case, I would think a fuse-link appropriately sized for 18AWG wire (i.e. 22AWG) would be appropriate protection (and better than a 15A fuse). Your thoughts? I like the idea of keeping redundant sources of ignition if I have a contactor failure. However, if I decide to also put the fuel pump on the battery bus, then I could either use another fuse-link for it (a 24AWG link seems appropriate) off the always hot side of the contactor or actually use a real fuse block battery bus for both the elec. ignition and fuel pump. OR (I don't think I need both approaches...) I could just put in the alternate feed path to the endurance bus (which, in my case, is the only bus with manual load shedding). It seems like I could use the 16AWG fuse-link (as on Z12) as the protection for the (proposed by me) panel-mounted switch/breaker for the alternate feed. However, this would required me to either find an isolation diode capable of my full electrical load (inc. lights). And, of course, requires that I also install the regulator feed fuse link to the switched output of my contactor (as I previously pondered) rather than downstream of the diode. Or, I need to bite the bullet and implement both a main bus and endurance bus (per Z11) so your AEC9001 would be enough to handle the endurance bus loads. Given that I haven't yet re-read chapter 17 or refreshed my load analysis, this may change. But as of now, I think the approach that best meets current objectives is to use fuse-links for the elect. ignition and possibly the fuel pump (not sure how I feel about the fuel pump switch being hot when the master switch is off. I guess I feel ok if I clearly indicate that on the labeling) from the always hot side of the contactor. And to not implement the endurance bus approach until I enter the "enhancement" project down the road. Best regards and thanks again for your input, Steve Stearns Boulder/Longmont, Colorado CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less) Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs) Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D ** ** ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Installation Item From: I installed my SD-8 and then questioned whether the output line from the relay to the bus was in fact correct. I ran the line from the relay to the Master Bus (satisfies the simple B & C drawing). The questions: 1. Given my All electric Z-13/8 installation (dual EE ignition) + backup battery, is it wiser to run the supply lead to the Essential Bus rather than the Master Bus? 2. If I do that will the SD-8 still get remaining charge to the batteries? Assumptions: Under use of the backup alternator (for whatever reason), the majority of the primary bus items would be turned off prior to flipping the switch on the SD-8. Thanks, Glenn ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:03 AM PST US From: Dan Brown Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity testing I fly a Mooney M20F which has a Concorde RG battery installed (RG-35AXC). Concorde (as well as Bob, of course) recommend periodic capacity testing--after 2 years, and every year thereafter. The procedure called for in Concorde's ICA (http://www.concordebattery.com/otherpdf/IFCA1.pdf, page 8) is to load the battery at the 1-hour rate (33 amps, in my case), and see how long it takes for the voltage to drop below 10 volts. If that takes less than 51 minutes (85% of 1 hour) on a fully-charged battery, it is to be replaced. So the question is, how can I uniformly (and, ideally, inexpensively) load the battery to 33 amps? I'd think that the loading would be fairly critical to get a valid result. Of course, I could do the math easily enough if the load were some other constant value (say, 30 or 35 amps), but I don't think I'd get a very good result with a load that changed over time (like using a light bulb), since it'd be hard to integrate that into total amp-hours. I've looked at West Mountain Radio's CBA-III (http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm), but to work for this purpose it would also need their add-on amplifier accessory (http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBAAmplifier.htm), bringing the total cost to almost $900. What other options are out there? -- Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org "Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring." -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Installation Item At 11:13 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote: > >I installed my SD-8 and then questioned whether the output line from the >relay to the bus was in fact correct. > >I ran the line from the relay to the Master Bus (satisfies the simple B >& C drawing). > >The questions: 1. Given my All electric Z-13/8 installation (dual EE >ignition) + backup battery, is it wiser to run the supply lead to the >Essential Bus rather than the Master Bus? 2. If I do that will the SD-8 >still get remaining charge to the batteries? > >Assumptions: Under use of the backup alternator (for whatever reason), >the majority of the primary bus items would be turned off prior to >flipping the switch on the SD-8. The SD8 as the ONLY alternator goes to the main bus. An SD8 as a backup alternator goes to the battery and e-bus loads are limited to 8A max. This lets you fly with unlimited endurance with the main bus down and the battery contactor off. Now you have 100% of energy stored in battery available for approach to landing by turning the battery master back on. B&C's recipe for success is for different dish. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity testing At 11:55 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote: > >I fly a Mooney M20F which has a Concorde RG battery installed >(RG-35AXC). Concorde (as well as Bob, of course) recommend periodic >capacity testing--after 2 years, and every year thereafter. > >I've looked at West Mountain Radio's CBA-III >(http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm), but to work for this >purpose it would also need their add-on amplifier accessory >(http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBAAmplifier.htm), bringing the >total cost to almost $900. Yeah . . . lots of overkill if YOUR are interested in endurance AS INSTALLED in YOUR airplane with YOUR choice of equipment items operational. The "approved" testing protocols come from a bunch of bureaucrats who decided some years ago that EVERYBODY's airplane should be configured and maintained to get on the ground in 30 minutes or less after engine driven power goes away. How about this? YOU decide what your alternator-out endurance target is. Wouldn't you feel better about 1 hour? How about two hours? Next make up a list of electro-whizzies you plan to leave ON (and those you can't turn off) after the LV warning light comes on. During some CAVU cross country, deliberately put your airplane into a failed alternator condition and start your stop-watch. 11 volts is a better battery depleted target. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/28AH_12V_Capacity_vs_Load.gif Note that by the time a 12 lead-acid battery drops to 11.0 volts, the curve is VERY steep and 10.0 volts is not far behind. When your battery drops to 11.0 volts, note the time it took to get down to that value. Did that meet your design goal for battery only endurance? No? (1) replace battery. (2) revise electrical load for alternator out operations or (3) revise endurance design goals. Or some combination of the 3. I think it's much better that the owner/operator craft, test and maintain personally generated endurance goals. Your chances of understanding and operating your airplane with confidence is greatly improved. After 11.0V is achieved, turn the alternator back on. Turn on maximum number of electro-whizzies for 10 minutes or so to mitigate the initial inrush of battery recharge currents. After 10 minutes, reduce to minimum required for completing the flight. If you have a battery maintainer to hook to you battery in the hangar, it's always a good thing whether or not you just tested the battery. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution >> Which figure are you referring to? I think I've >> had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint >> of a fuse-block since day-one . . . >Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed >Turbocad awhile ago. The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main >Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus >http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf Aha! That's an all CB airplane . . . so yes, the breaker goes right to the bus along with ALL OTHER BREAKERS. If you use a fuse block, then specialized feeder treatment for the alternator field breaker is indicated. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:08 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Installation Item From: Do Not Archive Excellent! Thanks Bob. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:15 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Installation Item At 11:13 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote: > >I installed my SD-8 and then questioned whether the output line from the >relay to the bus was in fact correct. > >I ran the line from the relay to the Master Bus (satisfies the simple B >& C drawing). > >The questions: 1. Given my All electric Z-13/8 installation (dual EE >ignition) + backup battery, is it wiser to run the supply lead to the >Essential Bus rather than the Master Bus? 2. If I do that will the SD-8 >still get remaining charge to the batteries? > >Assumptions: Under use of the backup alternator (for whatever reason), >the majority of the primary bus items would be turned off prior to >flipping the switch on the SD-8. The SD8 as the ONLY alternator goes to the main bus. An SD8 as a backup alternator goes to the battery and e-bus loads are limited to 8A max. This lets you fly with unlimited endurance with the main bus down and the battery contactor off. Now you have 100% of energy stored in battery available for approach to landing by turning the battery master back on. B&C's recipe for success is for different dish. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:35 AM PST US From: "Tom Hanaway" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution OK, I just got lost. I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the comments... Z-13 shows fusible link and circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and master switch. Z-14 has just circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and master switch. Z-19 has just fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and master switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch). I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the fusible link helps a fuse in the fuse block. Especially z-14 vs. z-13 and z-19. Thanks, Tom Hanaway Also working on an rv-10 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:42 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution >> Which figure are you referring to? I think I've >> had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint >> of a fuse-block since day-one . . . >Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed >Turbocad awhile ago. The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main >Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus >http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf Aha! That's an all CB airplane . . . so yes, the breaker goes right to the bus along with ALL OTHER BREAKERS. If you use a fuse block, then specialized feeder treatment for the alternator field breaker is indicated. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:21 PM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V Heated Pitot Thank you, Werner. I /do/ have that version of software installed with a GPS connected. I /have/ seen the warning message pop up (mostly on landing roll -- rather disconcerting) and it does give me additional comfort but as in all things involving proprietary (closed to scrutiny) software and sketchy specifications, I'm not sure if that replaces the need for a heated pitot tube in my application. Maybe I'll call Dynon and ask. Best, Joe Werner Schneider wrote: > > > Joe, get yourself the newest 5.1.1 version of the software and hook up a > GPS that will give you additional comfort as with that version the > attitude is, in case of dyn. press. lost backed up with GPS speed. > (Interesting to see on takeoff roll when a message tells you that before > the pitot comes live. > > Werner >> >> All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at all >> times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the Dynon EFIS >> requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude information. >> *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn an inadvertent >> icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider flying >> needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an emergency). >> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... >>* >Hmmm, Given your suggestion above, I'm now considering using a >fuse-link from the always hot side of the contactor (my current >"battery bus" such as it is...) to the electronic ignition. This >leads to an interesting dilemma. The manual for my electronic >ignition calls out a 15A fuse protecting 18AWG wire. I presume the >seemingly excess fuse size is to provide headroom for surge or pulse >current. IF that is the case, I would think a fuse-link >appropriately sized for 18AWG wire (i.e. 22AWG) would be appropriate >protection (and better than a 15A fuse). >Your thoughts? Let's not scatter fusible links around for any applications other than the slots suggested in the z-figures. How much current does your electronic ignition really draw? I'd be amazed if it were greater than 3A under worst case conditions. 3A is a TON of ignition energy. >I like the idea of keeping redundant sources of ignition if I have a >contactor failure. You have a magneto. That's your redundant ignition. The goal now is to supply a max-reliabilty, never turned off supply for the electronic system. The battery bus is the most stable, all-conditions source of electrical energy. > However, if I decide to also put the fuel pump on the battery > bus, then I could either use another fuse-link for it (a 24AWG link > seems appropriate) off the always hot side of the contactor or > actually use a real fuse block battery bus for both the elec. > ignition and fuel pump. No, ordinary fuses are just fine. >I could just put in the alternate feed path to the endurance bus >(which, in my case, is the only bus with manual load shedding). It >seems like I could use the 16AWG fuse-link (as on Z12) as the >protection for the (proposed by me) panel-mounted switch/breaker for >the alternate feed. Why not wire it per the Z-figures? >Given that I haven't yet re-read chapter 17 or refreshed my load >analysis, this may change. But as of now, I think the approach that >best meets current objectives is to use fuse-links for the elect. >ignition and possibly the fuel pump (not sure how I feel about the >fuel pump switch being hot when the master switch is off. If your magneto switch is left ON after the battery is OFF, it's hot too. This is what check lists are for. Keep in mind that the z-figures are, in some cases, 20+ years old. They've been combed and sifted for "gotchas" while optimizing the failure mode effects analysis with the minimum parts count. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... At 10:43 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote: >Bob and the group: > >>** >In case you were interested in following up, I've attached my >detailed schematics. I printed out your set of drawings on nice big 11 x 17 sheets with every intention of doing a well considered review . . . but hit the brick wall with the interstate/county road/ cow-path wiring diagram. These are exceedingly difficult to read for useful operational and FMEA information. The drawings for Cessna, Beechcraft, King Radio, AND the 'Connection were done that way for good reasons. Sorry I can't be of more service . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:49 PM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V Heated Pitot Thanks, Bob. So how would I meet my design goal of reliable *attitude* information with a Dynon EFIS during inadvertent flight into icing conditions? (For sake of discussion, I'll quantify reliable as pitch within 2 degrees of true, an MTBF of 2000 hours, and an indication of failure when it happens (no insidious failures). Roll I don't care as much about as I can maintain wings level with an electric turn coordinator.) My plan for dealing with failure of the EFIS is to fly needle-ball-and-airspeed using a TC, standby altimeter, and standby airspeed indicator. But that's not a workable plan if combined with a simultaneous failure of the pitot system due to icing and the standby airspeed indicator is inop too. Hence my requirement for a heated pitot. While a wing-leveler autopilot is a good thing, I would also need a pitch-axis autopilot and both autopilots would need to be independent of the Dynon EFIS. Alas, there goes the (relatively) inexpensive Dynon pitch and roll autopilot options. Other solutions would be more expen$ive, heavier, and require more panel space. So why not a heated pitot to make "plan A" more robust and "plan B" (standby instruments) possible? -- Joe Long-EZ flying RV-8A building (wings) Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 12:48 AM 10/5/2009, you wrote: >> >> In spite of my best efforts to avoid thread drift ... > > The "drift" wasn't intended to persuade or dissuade > you of anything. It's a prophylactic measure to > ward off misunderstanding by some of 1799 other > readers who might believe that serious discussions > about heated-pitot tubes on single-engine aircraft > is a worthy topic for their attention as well. I > and others on the list will be pleased to help you > achieve your design goals. But the charter for > this List is to seek useful perspective of any > design goal based on physics, experience and > understanding. > >> All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at all >> times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the Dynon EFIS >> requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude information. >> *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn an inadvertent >> icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider flying >> needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an emergency). > > It's not possible to quantify "reliable". > The prudent FMEA calls for crafting a > Plan-B based on your Dynon system failing > for what ever reason. We know that you're a > careful pilot and will stay out of weather > conditions that would put you at risk. > So how does one handle an airplane > if the airspeed readings are unreliable? > > It CAN become unreliable for a host of reasons > not related to ice on the pitot tube. > How about attitude and power control? Can > you stall your airplane without putting the > nose above the horizon? How difficult is > it to avoid over-speed? > > How about a wing leveler that uses it's own > data sources? It's a much better needle-ball > aviator than people and if you give it GPS > course data, a damned good navigator too. > It doesn't need a pitot-static system and > leaves you free to concentrate on speed > and altitude issues. > > One of my favorite teaching activities while > doing check rides with prospective renters at > 1K1 was to show them how to keep their head > out of the cockpit in our busy traffic area > with lots of no-radio airplanes. It's good that one > has the skills to nail that airspeed, runway > centerline and cross the fence on target every time. > > It's equally good to skillfully execute a short > approach from the downwind leg with high airspeeds > and maneuvers that would have your instructor > frowning if not yelling at you. It's the > unusual flight maneuvers that can be safely > conducted by staying WELL INSIDE the machine's > controllability envelope. That same skills and > understanding would do well by you if you > discovered that some bit of instrumentation > was broken for what ever reason. Skill and > understanding are a better substitute for > non-quantified "reliability" upon any single > piece of instrumentation. > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:43 PM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution I know you want Bob's response but let me see if I can share my new found knowledge regarding the Z13 vs. the Z14. The Z13 "Main Distribution Bus" is a fuse panel, that is, only fuses are used for circuit protection. Because you need a breaker for the Crowbar OV Protect module, a fusible link is used to protect the wire that runs to the breaker. You don't want to connect the breaker to a fuse because the fuse will blow before the breaker breaks. The fusible link will blow slowly and allow the breaker to function as it must for the Crowbar module to work. The Z14 "Main Distribution Bus" is a regular bus bar with breakers attached. In that case there is no wire running to a breaker to protect. The breaker required for the OV Protection in the LR3 controller is simply attached directly to the bus bar which is the "Main Distribution Bus". Makes sense to me now! Bill Tom Hanaway wrote: > > OK, I just got lost. I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the > comments... > > Z-13 shows fusible link _and _circuit breaker for alt fld between main > power bus and master switch. > > Z-14 has _just_ circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and > master switch. > > Z-19 has _just_ fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and > master switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch). > > I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the fusible > link helps a fuse in the fuse block. Especially z-14 vs. z-13 and z-19. > > > > Thanks, > > Tom Hanaway > > Also working on an rv-10 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:42 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution > > > > > > > > > > >> Which figure are you referring to? I think I've > > >> had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint > > >> of a fuse-block since day-one . . . > > >Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed > > >Turbocad awhile ago. The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main > > >Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus > > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf > > > > Aha! That's an all CB airplane . . . so yes, the breaker goes > > right to the bus along with ALL OTHER BREAKERS. If you use > > a fuse block, then specialized feeder treatment for the > > alternator field breaker is indicated. > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > --------------------------------------- > > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > > ( ) > > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V Heated Pitot From: "Matt Prather" I suspect Dynon might wash their hands of the whole thing by saying something like "the use of our pitot or display for the primary instrument for flight in icing condition is not recommended." I'll be interested in hearing back what they say.. Matt- > > Thank you, Werner. I /do/ have that version of software installed with > a GPS connected. I /have/ seen the warning message pop up (mostly on > landing roll -- rather disconcerting) and it does give me additional > comfort but as in all things involving proprietary (closed to scrutiny) > software and sketchy specifications, I'm not sure if that replaces the > need for a heated pitot tube in my application. > > Maybe I'll call Dynon and ask. > > Best, > Joe > > > Werner Schneider wrote: >> >> >> >> Joe, get yourself the newest 5.1.1 version of the software and hook up a >> GPS that will give you additional comfort as with that version the >> attitude is, in case of dyn. press. lost backed up with GPS speed. >> (Interesting to see on takeoff roll when a message tells you that before >> the pitot comes live. >> >> Werner >>> >>> All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at all >>> times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the Dynon EFIS >>> requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude information. >>> *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn an inadvertent >>> icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider flying >>> needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an emergency). >>> > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:53 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. From: thomas sargent I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that can be used under the cowling. Can some one tell me where to get these things? Thanks, -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:36 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: high temp. tie wraps. From: "Jim Berry" Look at steinair.com. Jim Berry RV10 N15JB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266689#266689 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution At 01:43 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote: >OK, I just got lost. I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the >comments... >Z-13 shows fusible link and circuit breaker for alt fld between main >power bus and master switch. Yes, Z-13 is a fuse-block bus, it COULD be a Circuit Breaker bus in which case it would look more like Z-14 >Z-14 has just circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and >master switch. . . . which IS a circuit breaker bus system. >Z-19 has just fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and >master switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch). >I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the >fusible link helps a fuse in the fuse block. Especially z-14 vs. >z-13 and z-19. Z-19 is also a fuse block system which means that it's impractical to use one of the block-mounted fuses to protect the extended feed-line to a crowbar tripped field breaker. Hence the fusible link upstream of the 5A breaker. It doesn't matter WHERE the breaker is along that pathway. Bottom line is that no link is needed when the field supply breaker ties directly to the bus with other breakers. When fuse blocks are used, the EXTENSION of the bus to a remotely mounted breaker gets ROBUST protection in the form of a fusible link. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:22 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V Heated Pitot At 02:34 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks, Bob. So how would I meet my design goal of reliable >*attitude* information with a Dynon EFIS during inadvertent flight >into icing conditions? > (For sake of discussion, I'll quantify reliable as pitch within 2 > degrees of true, an MTBF of 2000 hours, and an indication of > failure when it happens (no insidious failures). Roll I don't care > as much about as I can maintain wings level with an electric turn coordinator.) GPS aided wing leveler would do it for you. I think TruTrak has a version that adds the turning rate indicator on the panel. >My plan for dealing with failure of the EFIS is to fly >needle-ball-and-airspeed using a TC, standby altimeter, and standby >airspeed indicator. But that's not a workable plan if combined with >a simultaneous failure of the pitot system due to icing and the >standby airspeed indicator is inop too. Hence my requirement for a >heated pitot. It's not hard to find ice free locations for good static pressure data. Which is the foundation for pitch management. Further if altitude change rate is zero, then actual IAS is not terribly important data for flight safety. GPS ground speed and course readings and/or compass will get you the recommended 180 degree turn to exit icing. >While a wing-leveler autopilot is a good thing, I would also need a >pitch-axis autopilot and both autopilots would need to be >independent of the Dynon EFIS. Alas, there goes the (relatively) >inexpensive Dynon pitch and roll autopilot options. Other solutions >would be more expen$ive, heavier, and require more panel space. ???? How much time do you expect to spend out of sight of the ground in this airplane? How much of that will be in the dark? If you're willing to fly needle- ball-and-airspeed as a backup for electronics, then needle-ball-altitude-VSI-and-gps data are excellent expansions of that capability without adding weight, expense or taxation of panel space. The wing leveler with GPS augmentation is a HUGE reduction in workload while you deal with matters of pitch, power and navigation. What is your personal modus operandi for dealing with the first perceptions of icing? If it's even a possibility, do you have a flashlight or leading edge ice light that will let you watch the place where ice is likely to be seen first? >So why not a heated pitot to make "plan A" more robust and "plan B" >(standby instruments) possible? Because by the time you get icing severe enough to put pitot data at risk, the next level puts the airplane at risk. If your modus operandi calls for ASAP exit from icing conditions at first detection, then pitot heat is superfluous. This because your FMEA and Plan-B using other equipment already on board is quite robust even without airspeed data. If pitot heat offers ANY encouragement for pushing on to "see how much worse it gets" then I'll suggest it's more a hazard than help. I cringe when overhearing a C210 pilot talking to his hangar mates about the windshield patch, hot prop, boots and pitot tube heater, "Man, I can take this bird anywhere!" I prefer to (1) go flight into known icing cert or (2) get the hell out fast. The risks for anything in between are higher and perhaps incalculable. JUST heating the pitot tube is a very tiny reduction in risk. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. At 04:15 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote: >I understand that there are high temperature >tolerant tie wraps that can be used under the >cowling. Can some one tell me where to get these things? They are Tefzel tie wraps. About $2 each. Consider Dacron string ties. Works good, lasts a long time and is really cheap. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:48 PM PST US From: "Ralph Finch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page206.html is one source. Ralph Finch Davis, California RV-9A QB-SA From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of thomas sargent Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that can be used under the cowling. Can some one tell me where to get these things? Thanks, -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. From: jtortho@aol.com I do love the Mcmaster hardware store. http://www.mcmaster.com/#harsh-environment-wire-ties/=3xmqb5 JIm Timoney -----Original Message----- From: thomas sargent Sent: Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:15 pm Subject: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that can be used under the cowling.? Can some one tell me where to get these things? Thanks, -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:17 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. thomas sargent wrote: > I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that > can be used under the cowling. Can some one tell me where to get > these things? > > Thanks, > > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly Unless you're putting them where they are exposed to the radiant heat of the exhaust pipes, just about any UV resistant ones will work ok (at least in my experience). Charlie ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:05 PM PST US From: "Gaylen Lerohl" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. Terminaltown is another source: http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page206.html Gaylen Lerohl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. > > > thomas sargent wrote: >> I understand that there are high temperature tolerant tie wraps that can >> be used under the cowling. Can some one tell me where to get these >> things? >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly > > Unless you're putting them where they are exposed to the radiant heat of > the exhaust pipes, just about any UV resistant ones will work ok (at least > in my experience). > > Charlie > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:15 PM PST US From: Dan Brown Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity testing -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > During some CAVU cross country, deliberately > put your airplane into a failed alternator > condition and start your stop-watch. 11 volts Well, I've inadvertently done this (and due to the lack of active low-voltage warning, since rectified, didn't realize it), and I lasted about 3 hours before the GNS-430 shut down. Not realizing that the alternator was inop, I was running ordinary daytime equipment. Interestingly, it was my altitude encoder that was first to go (got a number of calls from ATC that they weren't picking up my Mode C readout). After that, the display on my engine monitor (instrument itself kept working, but the display was dark). The KX-155 lasted the longest before going dark. Given my ordinary daytime system load of 10-12 amps, the battery would have to be very far gone indeed before it would give me less than an hour, and even 2 hours would only be about 2/3 of its rated capacity (well below the point where I should, according to the manufacturer, discard the battery). With normal daytime loads, and the battery at full capacity, empirical observation and calculations agree that I get about 3 hours. At 85% capacity, the point where the ICAs specify battery replacement, that would leave 2.5 hours. I'm not going to have "duration of fuel aboard" as my battery life (and never will on the Mooney without shedding _lots_ of load--fuel capacity is 6-7 hours), but that would give plenty of time to land. Now that I have the flashing red light for low voltage, I'll know about a problem right away, too. What all this doesn't tell me is the health of the battery on an ongoing basis. I'd think there should be a better way to test this than repeatedly failing the alternator in flight. - -- Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org "Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring." -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFKyqduyQGUivXxtkERAkiZAJoDhyImplMMbkqLsjATGa0WKPhehQCggb9U HKxRHF41VQs7mPWmFVYvX3I =WonS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:12 PM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V Heated Pitot Hi Joe, I think it is down to your mission profile, I would avoid icing condition at all if possible but might go through a thin layer of stratus occasional, I did test the GPS assist in flight (hooking of the pitot line) and it worked quite well (stable attitude reference all the time). However I have the Dynon heated pitot with AoA installed as well (had a 5812 before). I had some thin layer of rim ice skimming under a stratus layer some times but I try to avoid these conditions as without de-icing on my plane/prop I feel not safe enough. A friend of mine even hooked two Dynons on different pitots in order to have redundancy. Again your mission will dictate what you want I would say. br Werner Joe Dubner wrote: > > Thank you, Werner. I /do/ have that version of software installed > with a GPS connected. I /have/ seen the warning message pop up > (mostly on landing roll -- rather disconcerting) and it does give me > additional comfort but as in all things involving proprietary (closed > to scrutiny) software and sketchy specifications, I'm not sure if that > replaces the need for a heated pitot tube in my application. > > Maybe I'll call Dynon and ask. > > Best, > Joe > > > Werner Schneider wrote: >> >> >> >> Joe, get yourself the newest 5.1.1 version of the software and hook >> up a GPS that will give you additional comfort as with that version >> the attitude is, in case of dyn. press. lost backed up with GPS >> speed. (Interesting to see on takeoff roll when a message tells you >> that before the pitot comes live. >> >> Werner >>> >>> All I want to do is have a reliable source of dynamic pressure at >>> all times. It's not a secret but neither is it well known: the >>> Dynon EFIS requires a working pitot system for reliable attitude >>> information. *Attitude*. Not just airspeed. I don't want to turn >>> an inadvertent icing encounter into an emergency (and I consider >>> flying needle-ball-and-airspeed with failed airspeed in IMC an >>> emergency). >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.