---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/08/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:03 AM - Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps (XeVision) 2. 09:57 AM - Re: Battery capacity testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:58 AM - Re: Question about (2-10) master switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Appendix Z (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 10:14 AM - Re: How is this battery lug crimp (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:15 AM - Re: Subject: high temp. tie wraps. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 10:23 AM - Re: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 10:32 AM - Re: Battery capacity testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 10:48 AM - Re: Battery capacity testing (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 10. 12:28 PM - Re: Appendix Z (gordonrsmith921@yahoo.com) 11. 04:32 PM - vote (Bill Bradburry) 12. 04:45 PM - Re: Re: Appendix Z (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 05:41 PM - Re: vote (Richard Girard) 14. 06:25 PM - Updated Elect Arch for group review (Steve Stearns) 15. 06:52 PM - Re: Wig-Wagging LED lamps (Speedy11@aol.com) 16. 08:13 PM - Re: Battery capacity testing (Kelly McMullen) 17. 09:16 PM - Re: Battery capacity testing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:16 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig-Wagging HDI lamps From: "XeVision" rgf(at)dcn.org wrote: > > > LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. > > This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance). > > > > > > Yes, but I wonder, how do the LEDs do as a recognition light, compared to a > landing light? They do great at night, not nearly so good in the daytime. LED's do not reach out very far. -------- LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267108#267108 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity testing At 07:32 AM 10/6/2009, you wrote: > >Caution.........Unless it is a very early M20F, the gear and >possibly the flaps are electrically operated. I would not recommend >running the battery low enough to force lowering the gear by the >emergency extension. Seems like this would be an issue for all >retractables that use electric power for gear operation. I suggested that such testing be accomplished under very low risk conditions at altitude. As soon as the alternator is back on line, there will be enough snort to operate the devices you mentioned just from the alternator's output . . . and a few minutes later, the battery will have stored up enough to operate flaps and/or gear. If your battery is in really good shape and still above 11.0 volts when 20-20 minutes out, it's probably a good idea to terminate the experiment and pay attention to pilot business. Conducted with prudence, this is a low-priority, low-risk experiment that will produce a very accurate assessment of your battery's ability to perform to YOUR design goals. >Or are you suggesting staying airborne while you reactivate the >alternator field and giving it some time to recharge the battery? >Seems like that would abuse the battery with high charging rates. The battery is subject to no more stresses than situations where you've jump started your car because the headlights were left on. Would the battery last longer had it never been subjected to the deep discharge event? Arguably yes . . . but by so small a value as to be difficult to measure and totally insignificant to your operational perceptions. But it's not an undue stress on the ship's accessories. They are all qualified to perform to nameplate ratings when the airplane was awarded a type certificate. >Perhaps testing by monitoring voltage and time, 30 min. with a >conservative volts cutoff(12.0?), whichever comes first might be >safer, at least for a first try. So what does the cutoff of 12.0 volts tell you? This experiment is not unlike a test in which the whole class gets A's. Warm fuzzies abound but you acquire no quantitative data on class knowledge. The ideal test is just rigorous enough that nobody gets 100%. You'll then have a top-to-bottom measure of both individual and aggregate knowledge. The total depletion test for measuring the total contained energy is still the simplest and most accurate means by which we can evaluate a battery's ability to perform to design goals. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about (2-10) master switch At 11:28 AM 10/6/2009, you wrote: > >Is the 2-10 master switch a MAKE-BEFORE-BREAK switch? If yes and a >standard DP3T switch was substituted, is it likely that the master >contactor would drop out during the split second that the switch is >moved from "alternator & battery" position to "battery only" position? The progressive transfers are exactly as described. Every motion of the handle to another position moves only one switch. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Appendix Z At 06:31 PM 10/6/2009, you wrote: > > >To 'lectric Bob: >On your Z-9 drawing, the ground/shield for the AEC 9024-10 LED LV >Warn Annunciator light is connected to the +14 volt terminal. Is that correct? Hmmm . . . yeah, need to fix several errors on the drawing. In the case you cited, the lead leads are reversed. The miniature LED annunciator fixtures we're building use shielded wire as a mechanical expedient for assembly but the shield will not always be "ground". http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/Mini-LED_Fixture.jpg >Have you published the details regarding the AEC 9024 module various >functions? I am particularly interested in the use as an aux >battery management module. Yes, see: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9024/9024_NOTES.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9024/9024_DIAGRAM.pdf In the aux battery management mode, operation is the same as for the now discontinued AEC9005 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How is this battery lug crimp At 06:40 AM 10/7/2009, you wrote: >Yep...the link to the picture came through fine... > >Hmmm...interesting application ..using a cable thimble swager for a >crimper...but being able to keep it from pulling off is only one of >the goals of crimping. > >I wonder how gas tight it will be with those "ears" on the sides. A >regular crimper compresses the lug all the way around and doesn't >leave any areas where the crimp changes direction, like the ears do >where they meet the wire. I'm wondering if this might be a location >where air, water, air borne chemicals, etc. can get in and start >corrosion, increasing the resistance... > >Any visible gaps where the ears meet the wire? And if not, is it >tight enough there to prevent infiltration of gases or liquids? > >Using the correct tool for the job is always a better idea! You can >always borrow a crimper if you don't have one. Agreed. Just because the mash looks adequate and it "seems strong enough" does not speak definitively to crimp integrity. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html In particular, check the cross-sectioned micrographs of the wire-grip sections. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: Subject: AeroElectric-List: high temp. tie wraps. At 08:19 AM 10/7/2009, you wrote: > > >What ever happened to the whitish tiewraps with the metal insert "tooth"? >Seems these were available surplus...... They're still around. Thomas-Betts likes that retention technology. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Basic Electrical Architecture for review... At 08:50 AM 10/6/2009, you wrote: > >Bob said: >>**These are exceedingly difficult to read** >Surprisingly enough, they work well for me but then they are much >closer to what I'm used to than the book format. I appreciate your >efforts none-the-less. I'll reformat extracts into your preferred >format (as I did with the "architecture drawing") when offering >things for you and the group to review in the future. Don't redraw them on my account. I'm only saying that the thought processes needed for analyzing functionality and doing a failure mode effects analysis requires rapid and definitive observation of electron pathways. The road-map technique is find for manufacturing but still impedes operational understanding. Ultimately, you're the one who needs to work and live with this project for the foreseeable future. By all means, use what ever documentation techniques offer you the greatest comfort. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity testing At 09:11 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote: > >What all this doesn't tell me is the health of the battery on an ongoing >basis. I'd think there should be a better way to test this than >repeatedly failing the alternator in flight. If you want to use test equipment on the ground, the simplest and least expensive system I've seen looks like this: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf Adjust the number and size of lamps to product an initial discharge current in the same neighborhood as your anticipated alternator-out loads. This obviously doesn't go to the 85%-replacement-benchmark. Instead, it gives you a rough handle on performance to your endurance goals. Of course, you've already discovered that knowing battery capacity is not terribly useful if you don't have timely notification of alternator failure. Sounds like you've got a handle on it. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:48:34 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity testing > >Caution.........Unless it is a very early M20F, the gear and >possibly the flaps are electrically operated. I would not recommend >running the battery low enough to force lowering the gear by the >emergency extension. Seems like this would be an issue for all >retractables that use electric power for gear operation. I suggested that such testing be accomplished under very low risk conditions at altitude. As soon as the alternator is back on line, there will be enough snort to operate the devices you mentioned just from the alternator's output . . . and a few minutes later, the battery will have stored up enough to operate flaps and/or gear. If your battery is in really good shape and still above 11.0 volts when 20-20 minutes out, it's probably a good idea to terminate the experiment and pay attention to pilot business. Conducted with prudence, this is a low-priority, low-risk experiment that will produce a very accurate assessment of your battery's ability to perform to YOUR design goals. >Or are you suggesting staying airborne while you reactivate the >alternator field and giving it some time to recharge the battery? >Seems like that would abuse the battery with high charging rates. The battery is subject to no more stresses than situations where you've jump started your car because the headlights were left on. Would the battery last longer had it never been subjected to the deep discharge event? Arguably yes . . . but by so small a value as to be difficult to measure and totally insignificant to your operational perceptions. But it's not an undue stress on the ship's accessories. They are all qualified to perform to nameplate ratings when the airplane was awarded a type certificate. >Perhaps testing by monitoring voltage and time, 30 min. with a >conservative volts cutoff(12.0?), whichever comes first might be >safer, at least for a first try. So what does the cutoff of 12.0 volts tell you? This experiment is not unlike a test in which the whole class gets A's. Warm fuzzies abound but you acquire no quantitative data on class knowledge. The ideal test is just rigorous enough that nobody gets 100%. You'll then have a top-to-bottom measure of both individual and aggregate knowledge. The total depletion test for measuring the total contained energy is still the simplest and most accurate means by which we can evaluate a battery's ability to perform to design goals. Bob . . . One further **** CAUTION **** Be very careful doing this test on your "ALL ELECTRIC AIRPLANE" (ONE HAVING BATTERY OPERATED ELECTRONIC IGNITION) You may, unintentionally, end up in a glider. Roger ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:25 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Appendix Z From: "gordonrsmith921@yahoo.com" I was particularly interested in seeing Figure 2,3,4 & 5 referenced in this article: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9024/9024_NOTES.pdf. Perhaps these figures have not yet been posted to this article? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267134#267134 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:32 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: AeroElectric-List: vote I normally do not send messages like this, but CNN is conducting a vote for Israel vs. Palestine. Please respond immediately to this shocking vote and voice comments as you wish. Please login to this site vote and forward this important message to any of your friends and colleagues. Apparently CNN is pushing a poll showing that 60% vs. 40% of Americans favor Palestine over Israel in the war in Gaza.. We must respond with numbers and be heard! We must stand together. Thousands of these emails are going out across the world right now. Please pass this to all concerned. If you have not already done so, please click on the link below and then simply click on the Israeli flag or the flag of your choice. http://www.israel-vs-palestine.com/gz/ PLEASE contact everyone you know to vote... It will take only an instant of your time! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Appendix Z At 02:25 PM 10/8/2009, you wrote: > > >I was particularly interested in seeing Figure 2,3,4 & 5 >referenced in this article: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9024/9024_NOTES.pdf. > > Perhaps these figures have not yet been posted to this article? The instructions/installation manual for the 9024 series products hasn't been written yet. The "notes" section is a preliminary look at performance while Z-9 is a preliminary look at applications to be described in the figures you asked about. Z-9 shows the 9024 installed as Contactor Power Management, Low Voltage Warning, and Over Voltage Protection. The Aux Battery Management application is not shown in Z-9 but if one wanted to add a small battery for the purpose of supporting only the ignition system, the forth application could be shown as well. If fact, Figure Z-9 may be part of the finished instructions document just to give a real-life set of examples about how the critter can be used. The documents published are preliminary and will be replaced by one written and illustrated in the style of the earlier Aux Battery Management module described here . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf The single device will perform any of the four functions which are installer selected by clipping out program selection jumpers. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: vote From: Richard Girard Not the right place to petition for the endorsement of your political views Bill. Rick Girard On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > bbradburry@bellsouth.net> > > I normally do not send messages like this, but CNN is conducting a vote > for > Israel vs. Palestine. Please respond immediately to this shocking vote and > voice comments as you wish. > Please login to this site vote and forward this important message to any of > your friends and colleagues. Apparently CNN is pushing a poll showing that > 60% vs. 40% of Americans favor Palestine over Israel in the war in Gaza.. > We must respond with numbers and be heard! We must stand together. > Thousands of these emails are going out across the world right now. Please > pass this to all concerned. If you have not already done so, please click > on the link below and then simply click on the Israeli flag or the flag of > your choice. > > http://www.israel-vs-palestine.com/gz/ > > > PLEASE contact everyone you know to vote... > It will take only an instant of your time! > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:52 PM PST US From: Steve Stearns Subject: AeroElectric-List: Updated Elect Arch for group review Greetings All, Thanks to all who took the time to review the last one. I've reviewed all of the related comments that were posted and updated my Architecture diagram. As before all comments and suggestions are welcome. I am particularly interested in help identifying any faults which are not adequately mitigated. By the way, if you don't see any significant un-mitigated faults, it would be nice to hear that too! :-) Thanks in advance, Steve Stearns Boulder/Longmont, Colorado CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less) Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs) Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:44 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig-Wagging LED lamps Ralph, I can assure you they do very well! I have the Precise Flight HIDs (non-pulsing for the reasons listed by "dblumel") and Whelen LED "landing lights" for taxi and recognition. LEDs, including Whelens, are not yet suitable as landing lights, but they are superb as taxi and recognition lights. I have both HID and LED lights in my wingtips and they are super. Precise Flight is coming out with 50W and 70W HID units - I have the 35W. You can see them on my web site at _http://www.rv-8a.net/2008.htm_ (http://www.rv-8a.net/2008.htm) - scroll down to September. Regards, Stan Sutterfield >LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. >This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance). Yes, but I wonder, how do the LEDs do as a recognition light, compared to a landing light? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:38 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity testing For safety you need to know the minimum excitation voltage for your specific alternator. Otherwise you could easily drop the battery voltage to a point where turning on the alternator field would get you exactly zero output. IIRC for some of the older alternators that value isn't much below 11.0. Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > So what does the cutoff of 12.0 volts tell you? > This experiment is not unlike a test in which > the whole class gets A's. Warm fuzzies abound but > you acquire no quantitative data on class knowledge. > The ideal test is just rigorous enough that nobody > gets 100%. You'll then have a top-to-bottom measure > of both individual and aggregate knowledge. > > The total depletion test for measuring the total > contained energy is still the simplest and most > accurate means by which we can evaluate a battery's > ability to perform to design goals. > > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------- > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:00 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity testing At 10:10 PM 10/8/2009, you wrote: > >For safety you need to know the minimum excitation voltage for your >specific alternator. Otherwise you could easily drop the battery >voltage to a point where turning on the alternator field would get >you exactly zero output. IIRC for some of the older alternators that >value isn't much below 11.0. Not true. All the externally regulated alternators for which I've designed regulators will come on line with less than 1 volt of b-terminal voltage. Everything else will light up with 2 volts. Some alternators spun at over 10KRPM on the front of a Lycoming will self-excite. The gear driven 100A machines on Barons and Bonanzas will also self-excite. If you can get the battery contactor to close (about 5 volts) then your alternator will come on line. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.