Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:25 AM - Re: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches (Carlos Trigo)
2. 05:08 AM - Re: 2 Alternator Split System (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
3. 06:11 AM - Re: 2 Alternator Split System (marcausman)
4. 07:11 AM - Re: 2 Alternator Split System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches (James Robinson)
7. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches (James Robinson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches |
You can put a flap switch on the control stick and install an airspeed relay
like this
http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelaySpeedCont1.htm
which will give you accidental flap deployment protection.
I know that this is not the KIS way, but it is a way.
I'm not related to "aircraft extras", just an happy customer (although
didn't test it in flight yet)
Carlos
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11@aol.com
Sent: quarta-feira, 14 de Outubro de 2009 1:45
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches
Bill,
There is nothing wrong with or dangerous about putting your flap switch on
the control stick. However, one must use due diligence when activating a
switch on the stick when one has more than one switch on the stick. For
example, I have flap switch, trim switch and starter switch all on the top
of my stick. I also have PTT, AP disconnect and smoke on the stick.
However, I've flown fighters for years and I'm comfortable with HOTAS. It
would be easy to accidentally activate the flaps when reaching for the trim
(I disable my starter button with a switch when flying). If the flaps are
accidentally started down, you simply switch them back up immediately.
So, while it is not dangerous to have flaps (or any other switch) on the
stick, it might be prudent to put it on the panel or near the throttle if
you are a private pilot who trained in aircraft that used a panel mounted
flap switch. If you prefer to have switches on the stick, then wire it that
way.
I would tell you how I wired mine, but mine is unique and may not fit your
needs. Is there another builder nearby that can help?
If you can't find help, contact me directly (off the forum) and I'll talk
you through my installation.
Stan Sutterfield
My 2 cents--
Keep the stick simple and place the flap switch on the panel.
Peter
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Alternator Split System |
It's been awhile since I went through this thinking when I adopted Bob's
Z-14 design - split bus, dual alt, dual batt. But the conclusion I came
to 2 years ago (was it that long?) was that there are few if any failure
scenarios that would put you in a situation where your panel wouldn't
outlast your fuel. It was even challenging to come up with a scenario
where the aircraft couldn't be re-fueled and ferried to a repair station
(like home). The Z-14 can be a very robust system.
But I'll have to admit that I irrationally chose the Z-14 because I
liked its symmetry.
When I did my planning for 3 GRT HX's , G430W, SL30, GTX(Txpndr), TT AP,
PMX9000EX, and TT ADI for backup, I ended up with B&C 40 and 20 amp
Alts. It seemed to me that once you went to the Z-14, the size of the
Alts was entirely driven by the total load rather than any backup
(critical Alt) scenario. But I haven't thought that one thru in awhile
(rivet, rivet, sand).
Bill "dreaming of flying this dream ship sooner rather than later" Watson
RV-10
al38kit wrote:
>
> As I design my system, I have a question regarding which alternator to use to
power the main flight/nav instruments...I'm planning an IFR all electric panel.
I do plan to have back up instruments on the other buss.
>
> I have the small B&C 20 amp gear driven alternator, and a 60 amp PP belt driven.
This will be going on an IO520.
>
> I plan to run the busses, with an interconnect in the event of failure of one
of the alternators.
>
> Which alternator should I plan to power the "more critical" buss?
>
> Does it matter...?
>
> Al
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267842#267842
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Alternator Split System |
I have this bus setup in my plane. If the 60A is on bus A and the 20A is on bus
B, then you have to plan your loads accordingly so that loads on each bus do
not exceed about 80% of the rated alternator capacity (just a rule of thumb).
The busses normally run totally independently of each other, and only tie together
if you have an alt fail on one of the busses, in which case you may need
to load shed.
Some avionics, like most newer EFIS, have dual power inputs, and you can feed these
off of both busses (the inputs are isolated from each other). In that case,
I recommend that bus A be set to about .3 volt higher than bus B so that the
power is drawn from the bigger alternator under normal conditions.
You can also install Comm1 on bus A and comm2 on Bus B, for example, just for
redundancy too.
--------
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267899#267899
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Alternator Split System |
At 09:16 PM 10/13/2009, you wrote:
>
>As I design my system, I have a question regarding which alternator
>to use to power the main flight/nav instruments...I'm planning an
>IFR all electric panel. I do plan to have back up instruments on
>the other buss.
>
>I have the small B&C 20 amp gear driven alternator, and a 60 amp PP
>belt driven. This will be going on an IO520.
>
>I plan to run the busses, with an interconnect in the event of
>failure of one of the alternators.
>
>Which alternator should I plan to power the "more critical" buss?
>
>Does it matter...?
Hard to tell. An analogy to the framework of
your question might be, "I've got this
D8 caterpillar and a yard full of matching
implements . . . how should I use them?"
It depends . . . on whether your task is to
build a road up a rocky mountainside . . . or
to prepare your wife's flower beds for the
planting of pansies.
I've often reminded our bothers on the List
that electrical system failures of well qualified
hardware have not been high on the list of
really uncomfortable days in the cockpit. 99%
of all dark-n-stormy night stories that include
electrical system issues would not have
happened if the airplane had been fitted with
active notification of low voltage, a well
tended battery of known capacity, and a pilot
versed in Plan-B activities designed to deal
with alternator failure.
So the lucid answer to your question depends on
our understanding of your design goals. Why Z-14?
What was it about Z-18/8 or Z-12 that failed to
meet a perceived hazard to comfortable completion
of flight? You mention an IFR panel . . . which
doesn't help much. Every airplane I rent from
C-140 to A-36 has an "IFR Panel". Is it your
intent to spend a lot of time flying in unfriendly
environments like night time over rocks cloaked
in clouds? Z-20 is not well suited to a Lancair,
Z-14 is not suited to a Kitfox. The answer
to your question lies in a well considered
analysis of the airplane, mission, environment
and even perhaps your experience level and skills.
Z-14 was crafted as a means by which the most
demanding of flight environments and missions
could be accommodated. Z-14 is a STEP
UP from what you get in a Beechjet or a
King Air. Those airplanes have dual everything,
even dual autopilots. Interestingly enough
however, only ONE battery which demand continuous
closure of a cross-feed contactor and a much
more complicated procedure for dealing with
failures of major components.
So before we attempt to noodle through your Z-14
architecture, we need to know how Z-13/8, or
Z-12 failed to meet a requirement. Those systems
are lighter, lower cost of ownership, less
complicated and STILL offer system reliability
on a par with a Beechjet.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches |
At 06:22 AM 10/14/2009, you wrote:
>You can put a flap switch on the control stick and install an
>airspeed relay like this
>
><http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelaySpeedCont1.htm>http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelaySpeedCont1.htm
>
>which will give you accidental flap deployment protection.
>I know that this is not the KIS way, but it is a way.
>
>I'm not related to "aircraft extras", just an happy customer
>(although didn't test it in flight yet)
Interesting. I would caution folks about urges
to add "bells and whistles" to their projects
"just because we can". The FARS began speaking to
the style, location and operation of flap and
landing gear handles very early on. Years of
experience with mis-operation of the simplest
of control systems drove the heavy duty thinkers
to advise (if not demand) standards that go
directly to reduction of accident due to error
(human factors) and/or failure (equipment
lacking robustness), or failure tolerance
(UN-elegant design).
The product cited in the link above is an interesting
discussion point. Diaphragm switches for low delta-
pressure (IAS sensors) are not very robust. Hardly
a device I could get qualified onto a TC aircraft
for the goal of "increased safety" . . .
Emacs!
The relay board in the picture uses "mash-em"
terminal strips not unlike those used in other
products offered to the OBAM aviation community
. . .
Emacs!
again . . . another technology that I would not even attempt
to qualify onto a TC aircraft. No gas tightness of electrical
connections, no support of wires adjacent to the stress-riser
at the connections.
I can only counsel caution when the siren call of "change"
is strong. It's prudent to understand the foundations
upon which the "status quo" exists. The elegant design
philosophy calls for lowest practical count of robust
parts and processes combined with an accommodation of
human frailties. What's the return on investment for replacing
simple, traditional flap and gear controls with new
whiz-bangs? Especially whiz-bangs that intended to make
add "convenience" to a 2-second action that happens 4x per
flight cycle? How does the proposed change improve or
degrade overall system reliability? What do the new whiz-
bangs offer in terms of risk for unintended operations?
Twice the parts count says you're twice as likely to
experience a failure-to-operate event.
May I further suggest that products like those illustrated
above do not move the state of our art in the right
direction?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches |
Thanks Stan
It has worked great for 4 yrs. I also have the flip flop radio, auto pilot disconnect,
IDENT. and strobes on the stick buttons.
I have been happy with this arrangement.
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
________________________________
From: "Speedy11@aol.com" <Speedy11@aol.com>
Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 5:47:44 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches
Bill,
If you can do it, Jim's setup is ideal.
Stan Sutterfield
I have
> my flap switch on the throttle and trim on the stick. Works great
> for
>me
>Jim
>
>James Robinson
>Glasair lll N79R
>Spanish
> Fork UT U77
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches |
In my last reply I failed to mention a few things. Normally the throttle is full
forward from takeoff to nearing approach. The switch has to be pressed up
or down. Very difficult to inadvertently activate and if activated with the gear
up the gear warning horn would sound. If it failed it would not be a safety
of flight concern. No other electrical clutter needs be installed. I find
this no more complex or failure prone than a switch on the panel
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
________________________________
From: "Speedy11@aol.com" <Speedy11@aol.com>
Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 5:47:44 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Control Stick/Flap Switches
Bill,
If you can do it, Jim's setup is ideal.
Stan Sutterfield
I have
> my flap switch on the throttle and trim on the stick. Works great
> for
>me
>Jim
>
>James Robinson
>Glasair lll N79R
>Spanish
> Fork UT U77
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