---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/23/09: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:44 AM - Re: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 (Werner Schneider) 2. 03:34 AM - Re: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 (Werner Schneider) 3. 06:29 AM - Need help with desicsion (rvg8tor) 4. 07:01 AM - Re: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 (Bill Bradburry) 5. 07:43 AM - Re: Need help with desicsion (Ron Quillin) 6. 07:56 AM - Re: Need help with desicsion (rvg8tor) 7. 08:09 AM - Re: Need help with desicsion () 8. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: p-lead signal conditioning or tach gen usage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:16 AM - Re: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 (Werner Schneider) 10. 08:38 AM - Re: Need help with desicsion (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:45 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 Interesting according to the specs from the KMD 150 it reads: External GPS, requires ARNAV R-30, BendixKing RS232 or RS422 (9600 baud), NMEA0183 (4800 or 9600 baud) or Northstar Proprietary data (1200 baud); WX-500 Stormscope sensor that sounds not like Aviation Format will work! Werner Bill Bradburry wrote: > > The GNS430W only outputs "aviation". This is not on the list of what the > KMD150 says it will read, however, I have been told by both Garmin and > Honeywell tech support that the KMD will read it. > > So far, I have not been able to tell my KMD... :>) I was hoping that > someone on the list had accomplished that.. > > Bill B > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner > Schneider > Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:58 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to > KMD150 > > --> > > Bill, > > did you configure the 430 that it does output NMEA0183 format with the > correct baudrate and also, that the KMD does look for that format with the > same baudrate and that receive and transmit of the two units are crossed? > You have 3 wires between the two right? > > Just as a starter > > br Werner > > Bill Bradburry wrote: > >> My KMD150 does not see the GPS output from the GNS430W. Does anyone >> have any input on how to convince these two to talk to one another? >> >> >> >> Bill B >> >> * * >> * >> >> >> * >> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:01 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 Hello Bill, just found on the 430 installation instruction: 4.6.1.1 you can set GPS COM Out1 port on data format 2 which is the northstar format Don't forget to check baudrate! Let me know if you need instructions how to set it. br Werner Werner Schneider wrote: > > > Interesting according to the specs from the KMD 150 it reads: > > > > > External GPS, requires ARNAV R-30, BendixKing RS232 or RS422 (9600 > baud), NMEA0183 (4800 or 9600 > baud) or Northstar Proprietary data (1200 baud); WX-500 Stormscope sensor > > that sounds not like Aviation Format will work! > > Werner > > Bill Bradburry wrote: >> >> >> The GNS430W only outputs "aviation". This is not on the list of what >> the >> KMD150 says it will read, however, I have been told by both Garmin and >> Honeywell tech support that the KMD will read it. >> >> So far, I have not been able to tell my KMD... :>) I was hoping that >> someone on the list had accomplished that.. >> >> Bill B >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Werner >> Schneider >> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:58 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to >> KMD150 >> >> >> >> Bill, >> >> did you configure the 430 that it does output NMEA0183 format with the >> correct baudrate and also, that the KMD does look for that format >> with the >> same baudrate and that receive and transmit of the two units are >> crossed? >> You have 3 wires between the two right? >> >> Just as a starter >> >> br Werner >> >> Bill Bradburry wrote: >> >>> My KMD150 does not see the GPS output from the GNS430W. Does >>> anyone have any input on how to convince these two to talk to one >>> another? >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill B >>> >>> * * >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:17 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need help with desicsion From: "rvg8tor" I am running a 60 amp alternator in my system and can't decide which way to go with the wire size to the main bus. #8 is good to 57 amps, my max continuous load is 45 amps. If I get right up to the 60 amp load for some reason this will exceed the wire limits, I will also have a 60 am ANL. Is the #8 wire a compromise or is it just fine, or should I go up to #6? I do have the #6 wire, so it is not a matter of saving $, just the weight, the only thing I would need is some lugs. I bought the #6 wire without really thinking this through. I want to do this the best way possible, not just what will work. So since materials are not the issue which way would you guys and gals go. Thanks for the help, am I over thinking this! Cheers -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269048#269048 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:22 AM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 Werner, That may be it, but I will have to think through it because I have other things connected to the 430. Dynon 10A, Trutrack Digitrack II VSGV, etc. they require Aviation and different speeds. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner Schneider Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 6:31 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 --> Hello Bill, just found on the 430 installation instruction: 4.6.1.1 you can set GPS COM Out1 port on data format 2 which is the northstar format Don't forget to check baudrate! Let me know if you need instructions how to set it. br Werner Werner Schneider wrote: > > > Interesting according to the specs from the KMD 150 it reads: > > oadServlet?FileName=/static/brochures/pdf/kmd150.pdf> > > > External GPS, requires ARNAV R-30, BendixKing RS232 or RS422 (9600 > baud), NMEA0183 (4800 or 9600 > baud) or Northstar Proprietary data (1200 baud); WX-500 Stormscope > sensor > > that sounds not like Aviation Format will work! > > Werner > > Bill Bradburry wrote: >> >> >> The GNS430W only outputs "aviation". This is not on the list of what >> the KMD150 says it will read, however, I have been told by both >> Garmin and Honeywell tech support that the KMD will read it. >> >> So far, I have not been able to tell my KMD... :>) I was hoping >> that someone on the list had accomplished that.. >> >> Bill B >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Werner Schneider >> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:58 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W >> to KMD150 >> >> >> >> Bill, >> >> did you configure the 430 that it does output NMEA0183 format with >> the correct baudrate and also, that the KMD does look for that format >> with the same baudrate and that receive and transmit of the two units >> are crossed? >> You have 3 wires between the two right? >> >> Just as a starter >> >> br Werner >> >> Bill Bradburry wrote: >> >>> My KMD150 does not see the GPS output from the GNS430W. Does >>> anyone have any input on how to convince these two to talk to one >>> another? >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill B >>> >>> * * >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:55 AM PST US From: Ron Quillin Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need help with desicsion At 06:25 10/23/2009, you wrote: >I am running a 60 amp alternator in my system and can't decide which >way to go with the wire size to the main bus. #8 is good to 57 >amps, my max continuous load is 45 amps. If I get right up to the >60 amp load for some reason this will exceed the wire limits, I will >also have a 60 am ANL. > >Is the #8 wire a compromise or is it just fine, or should I go up to >#6? I do have the #6 wire, so it is not a matter of saving $, just >the weight, the only thing I would need is some lugs. I bought the >#6 wire without really thinking this through. I want to do this the >best way possible, not just what will work. So since materials are >not the issue which way would you guys and gals go. > >Thanks for the help, am I over thinking this! > >Cheers I'll wade into this only to suggest rather than just using the somewhat generic wire capacity tables, dig into Chapter 11 of AC43-13-1B and work it out with actual numbers. What will the IR (voltage) drop be for your proposed run length based on the load, resistance, temperature, altitude, bundling and such of your chosen cable. Is your calculated voltage drop acceptable? AC43-13 has a suggestion: b. Voltage Drop in Wires. The voltage drop in the main power wires from the generation source or the battery to the bus should not exceed 2 percent of the regulated voltage when the generator is carrying rated current or the battery is being discharged at the 5-minute rate. The tabulation shown in table 11-6 defines the maximum acceptable voltage drop in the load circuits between the bus and the utilization equipment ground. Ron Q. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:32 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Need help with desicsion From: "rvg8tor" Ron, Good point, I have done the voltage drop with the table in AC43 but have not done the further study of altitude and such. I will work though it, as far as voltage drop with the amps and the cable length #8 is the answer. Thank you for pointing this out. Mike [quote="rjquillin"]At 06:25 10/23/2009, you wrote: > I am running a 60 amp alternator in my system and can't decide which way to go with the wire size to the main bus. #8 is good to 57 amps, my max continuous load is 45 amps. If I get right up to the 60 amp load for some reason this will exceed the wire limits, I will also have a 60 am ANL. > > Is the #8 wire a compromise or is it just fine, or should I go up to #6? I do have the #6 wire, so it is not a matter of saving $, just the weight, the only thing I would need is some lugs. I bought the #6 wire without really thinking this through. I want to do this the best way possible, not just what will work. So since materials are not the issue which way would you guys and gals go. > > Thanks for the help, am I over thinking this! > > Cheers I'll wade into this only to suggest rather than just using the somewhat generic wire capacity tables, dig into Chapter 11 of AC43-13-1B and work it out with actual numbers. What will the IR (voltage) drop be for your proposed run length based on the load, resistance, temperature, altitude, bundling and such of your chosen cable. Is your calculated voltage drop acceptable? AC43-13 has a suggestion: b. Voltage Drop in Wires. The voltage drop in the main power wires from the generation source or the battery to the bus should not exceed 2 percent of the regulated voltage when the generator is carrying rated current or the battery is being discharged at the 5-minute rate. The tabulation shown in table 11-6 defines the maximum acceptable voltage drop in the load circuits between the bus and the utilization equipment ground. Ron Q. > [b] -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269073#269073 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:01 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need help with desicsion From: Mike, I guess the question is are you feeling lucky or conservative? No, the wire won't melt down if you get to a 58 amp draw. Tefzel will run hot a long time before it deteriorates and dissolves the connector and destroys all your components. If you want to be safe and are not worried about the few extra ounces, use the #6. If you want to be a nerd you can buy a micro processor, program the imbedded code and attach it to a thermocouple sensor on the wire, thus monitor the temperature for a while. Who's got that much time? We gotta go fly. If the #8 suits your load pattern and length calculations, then use it. I think a common misconception is that if you have a 60 amp alternator, that the alternator is constantly trying to burn up your 10 amp load with 60 amps of pressure. The alternator works on demand, so it won't produce more than you need. Think of it as a throttle. If you demand more, you'll get more. You could put a 150 amp alternator on there and run a #8 wire to it. Just depends on demand and the design of your system. Remember, it's the voltage that kills you not the amperage. Remove the VARs and you've got nothing. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rvg8tor Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:26 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need help with desicsion I am running a 60 amp alternator in my system and can't decide which way to go with the wire size to the main bus. #8 is good to 57 amps, my max continuous load is 45 amps. If I get right up to the 60 amp load for some reason this will exceed the wire limits, I will also have a 60 am ANL. Is the #8 wire a compromise or is it just fine, or should I go up to #6? I do have the #6 wire, so it is not a matter of saving $, just the weight, the only thing I would need is some lugs. I bought the #6 wire without really thinking this through. I want to do this the best way possible, not just what will work. So since materials are not the issue which way would you guys and gals go. Thanks for the help, am I over thinking this! Cheers -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Fuselage) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269048#269048 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: p-lead signal conditioning or tach gen usage At 08:59 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: > > > >> >>Bob, I was thinking of only rectifying one phase not all three. My >>thought was that the tach gen is rotating at half engine speed, I'd >>get another "peak" in the signal from one phase and essentially >>double the frequency. > > Hmmmm . . . yeah, that would work. On further reflection, there's a simple collection of components that can be used to give you a 4x increase in frequency . . . assuming that your tach input is watching for EDGES of transition and doesn't care about symmetry. Your comparator looks at full-wave rectified output to give you a 2x square wave. You then add an exclusive- or gate and a resistor-capacitor to convert each edge of the 2x into 4 narrow pulses effectively doubling the total number of edges a second time. Let's see what your 'scope studies tell us. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:39 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to KMD150 You might try what format you can select on the other two com's maybe they can still do Aviation? You can easily try to hook up a PC with a terminal program (don't use the windows one, but e.g. terraterm) and see what you get out there, so you can choose on com 1 the northstar? Further on the Users Guide Page 44: Important Note for Garmin GPS Users Although Garmin products output the Bendix/King equivalent ARNAV R- 30 (RS232) data sentence format, when put into OBS Mode some Garmin GPS units stop sending flight plan data. In these circumstances your KMD 150 will display only the GPS position and track since it is not receiving flight plan data. In the case of DME arcs, turns and holds, some Garmin GPS units send the flight plan information as if there was no arc or curved flight path. Therefore the KMD 150 has no option but to connect the beginning and end waypoints of the arc or curve with a straight line. Under these circumstances the line on the KMD 150 MUST BE IGNORED. NMEA AND NORTHSTAR DATA If the host GPS is outputting NMEA data or Northstar M3 binary data, no flight plan information will be displayed on the KMD 150. The information appearing on the KMD 150 will be limited to present position, track and ground speed. Good luck Werner Bill Bradburry wrote: > > Werner, > That may be it, but I will have to think through it because I have other > things connected to the 430. Dynon 10A, Trutrack Digitrack II VSGV, etc. > they require Aviation and different speeds. > > Bill B > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner > Schneider > Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 6:31 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W to > KMD150 > > --> > > Hello Bill, > > just found on the 430 installation instruction: > > 4.6.1.1 you can set GPS COM Out1 port on data format 2 which is the > northstar format > > Don't forget to check baudrate! > > Let me know if you need instructions how to set it. > > br Werner > > Werner Schneider wrote: > >> >> >> Interesting according to the specs from the KMD 150 it reads: >> >> > oadServlet?FileName=/static/brochures/pdf/kmd150.pdf> >> >> >> External GPS, requires ARNAV R-30, BendixKing RS232 or RS422 (9600 >> baud), NMEA0183 (4800 or 9600 >> baud) or Northstar Proprietary data (1200 baud); WX-500 Stormscope >> sensor >> >> that sounds not like Aviation Format will work! >> >> Werner >> >> Bill Bradburry wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> The GNS430W only outputs "aviation". This is not on the list of what >>> the KMD150 says it will read, however, I have been told by both >>> Garmin and Honeywell tech support that the KMD will read it. >>> >>> So far, I have not been able to tell my KMD... :>) I was hoping >>> that someone on the list had accomplished that.. >>> >>> Bill B >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>> Werner Schneider >>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:58 AM >>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Serial data output from a Garmin 430W >>> to KMD150 >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> did you configure the 430 that it does output NMEA0183 format with >>> the correct baudrate and also, that the KMD does look for that format >>> with the same baudrate and that receive and transmit of the two units >>> are crossed? >>> You have 3 wires between the two right? >>> >>> Just as a starter >>> >>> br Werner >>> >>> Bill Bradburry wrote: >>> >>> >>>> My KMD150 does not see the GPS output from the GNS430W. Does >>>> anyone have any input on how to convince these two to talk to one >>>> another? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill B >>>> >>>> * * >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need help with desicsion At 08:25 AM 10/23/2009, you wrote: > >I am running a 60 amp alternator in my system and can't decide which >way to go with the wire size to the main bus. #8 is good to 57 >amps, my max continuous load is 45 amps. If I get right up to the >60 amp load for some reason this will exceed the wire limits, I will >also have a 60 am ANL. > >Is the #8 wire a compromise or is it just fine, or should I go up to >#6? I do have the #6 wire, so it is not a matter of saving $, just >the weight, the only thing I would need is some lugs. I bought the >#6 wire without really thinking this through. I want to do this the >best way possible, not just what will work. So since materials are >not the issue which way would you guys and gals go. > >Thanks for the help, am I over thinking this! Assuming that you're alternator b-lead is 4' long, a 6AWG at 4 mOhms/Ft will drop 60 x .004 x 4 = .96 volts at full load. If your alternator is an externally regulated device then the regulator senses BUS voltage instead of B-terminal voltage and it will compensate for the voltage drop. However, if internally regulated, the bus will run about 1.0 volts low during full load operations. In practice, you'd never be able to realize that loading because loads on the alternator are a combination of system requirements + battery recharge currents. For a 14.2v setpoint, a 13.2v bus wouldn't significantly stimulate the battery to soak up the joules it would like to have if the bus were actually higher. If your alternator is externally regulated, then voltage drops in the b-lead only limit your minimum speed for full alternator output . . . which at take-off or cruise settings is not a limiting factor. The trends are moving toward internally regulated (b-lead sense) and small b-lead feeders COMBINED with all other wires between the alternator and battery can stack up voltage drops that will impact battery recharge performance. This is why the Z-figures generally show 4AWG or larger for b-lead feeders . . . and all other fat-wires. Having said that, unless your battery is seriously discharged, these simple-ideas in physics have little perceivable effect on your operations. Going to the wire tables is not particularly useful for fat-wire calculations since their recommendations are based on temperature rises that generally fall WELL BELOW that which the wire will tolerate in your airplane. The hard- hat consideration is for voltage drop under the worst case conditions. There are additional voltage drops to be considered for the full- up system. Know that automobiles tend to use fat-wires that are a lot smaller than the aviation community would find acceptable for meeting design goals. At the same time, except for a severely discharge battery, automobiles almost never encounter conditions that exploit the full capability of the alternator. I've often suggested that if it were my airplane and the batteries were up front, I'd craft all the fat-wire paths with 4AWG welding cable for reasons that are not readily revealed by praying over the wire table . . . Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.