---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/01/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:17 AM - PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During November! (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:50 AM - Re: Battery Contactor Coil Wiring (user9253) 2. 07:28 AM - Relays etc (Fergus Kyle) 3. 07:42 AM - Re: Battery Contactor Coil Wiring (messydeer) 4. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: Battery Contactor Coil Wiring (Bob McCallum) 5. 10:08 AM - magnetometer location (Judson Porter) 6. 02:27 PM - Re: Re: Crimpmaster for insulated, non-insulated, and open barrel (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 02:36 PM - Re: magnetometer location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 02:55 PM - Re: BNC and RG 174 (Gilles Thesee) 9. 03:02 PM - Re: p-lead signal conditioning or tach gen usage (Craig Winkelmann) 10. 04:05 PM - Re: p-lead signal conditioning or tach gen usage (Craig Winkelmann) 11. 04:42 PM - Re: Relays etc (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 07:16 PM - Re: Relays etc (RGent1224@aol.com) 13. 09:37 PM - Re: Relays etc (David LLoyd) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:18 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During November! Dear Listers, Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued operation and upgrade of the List services at Matronics. It's solely through the Contributions of List members that these Matronics Lists are possible. There is NO advertising to support the Lists. You might have noticed the conspicuous lack of flashing banners and annoying pop-ups on the Matronics Email List email messages and web site pages such as the Matronics List Forums ( http://forums.matronics.com ), the List Wiki ( http://wiki.matronics.com), or other related pages such as the List Search Engine ( http://www.matronics.com/search ), the List Browser ( http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse ), etc. This is because I believe in a List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely Airplanes and not about annoying advertisements. During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every couple of days reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask for your patience and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular messages. The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all of the bills associated with running these lists. Your personal Contribution counts! Once again, this year I've got a terrific line up of free gifts to go along with the various Contribution levels. Most all of these gifts have been provided by some of the vary members and vendors that you'll find on Matronics Lists and have been either donated or provided at substantially discounted rates. This year, these generous people include Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric Connection (http://www.aeroelectric.com/), Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore (http://www.buildersbooks.com/), and Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/). These are extremely generous guys and I encourage you to visit their respective web sites. Each one offers a unique and very useful aviation-related product line. I would like publicly to thank Bob, Andy, and Jon for their generous support of the Lists again this year!! You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods this year including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. All three methods afford you the opportunity to select one of this year's free gifts with a qualifying Contribution amount!! To make your Contribution, please visit the secure site below: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND moral support over the years! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:42 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactor Coil Wiring From: "user9253" Hi Dan, Connect the positive coil wire to the big terminal on the EV200 that goes to the battery. Connect the negative coil wire to the master switch. When turned on, the master switch will connect the negative coil wire to ground. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270411#270411 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:04 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Relays etc Al, First of all, I heartily endorse OCBaker's remarks about the AeroConnection book, as I think do most of us. Second, as a short cut to some thinking, I made a habit of checking with how the auto industry wired things - you know if they had a device too rich in current to switch alone, they used relays and the same principle applies. I have never (well once) had to change a car relay since 1948 (and it was corroded) so I guess my aircraft device (homebuilt) could stand it. Bosch relays seem very reliable. Just an idea, Ferg Europa A064 wiring wiring wiring ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:06 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactor Coil Wiring From: "messydeer" Thanks, guys :-) 2 here and 1 by private email makes the score 3-0 for doing this. So I'll crimp a ring onto the red wire and hang it on the positive post of the contactor and splice the black wire to my master switch. There must be a reason they didn't wire the positive coil lead internally to the post. This is the only contactor I've dealt with. Are they all like this? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270440#270440 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:49 AM PST US From: "Bob McCallum" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactor Coil Wiring Dan; No not all relays or contactors are wired like this. They are all wired, however, to serve whatever applications they are designed for. If you purchase a contactor intended for aircraft master relay use then chances are it will be wired with the internal jumper. The EV200 you're referring to is not a battery contactor per se but a generic device used in tens of thousands of different applications and wired in many different ways. Use as an aircraft master relay is an infinitesimally small percentage of their total sales and therefore the design will not take that into account because it would limit some of the other applications for which it is used. You have to understand how to wire a device such as this (or any other) for the way your application uses it, which is what others have explained. Positive to battery, negative through switch to ground. The rationale is explained in "the book". Following this list, asking questions, and reading "the book" will soon result in a good understanding of the not so mysterious mysteries behind the functioning of many things electrical. There are other ways of wiring this relay to function in your application by the way, but the "standard accepted aircraft practice" is as described by the three responses you refer to. Good luck on the road to understanding. This is a great place to learn. P.S. don't forget to support Matt's efforts via his annual fundraiser. Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of messydeer > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 10:38 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Contactor Coil Wiring > > > Thanks, guys :-) > > 2 here and 1 by private email makes the score 3-0 for doing this. So I'll crimp a > ring onto the red wire and hang it on the positive post of the contactor and splice > the black wire to my master switch. > > There must be a reason they didn't wire the positive coil lead internally to the > post. This is the only contactor I've dealt with. Are they all like this? > > -------- > Dan ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:35 AM PST US From: Judson Porter Subject: AeroElectric-List: magnetometer location I'm using 2 EFIS units and could connect both to the same magnetometer but wanted to have backup. Is there any problem mounting them next to each other side by side. Will they interfere or cross talk with each other? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crimpmaster for insulated, non-insulated, and open barrel At 05:47 PM 10/31/2009, you wrote: > > > > Where are you needing to put an 8AWG to a fast-on tab? 8AWG > > implies loads upwards of 40A. > > >Sonex plans show using 8AWG for the power distribution circuit. I >have a Jabiru 3300 that puts out between 13A and 20A, depending on >which set of their numbers you use. > >The two alternator leads end in female fastons. Can't see the gauge, >but they're a little bigger compared to a piece of 12awg wire with >insulation when held next to it. > >The voltage regulator has 6 wires, all with faston terminals. The >size of these wires are also covered, but they look to be about the >same size as my 12AWG wire. > >So I'm thinking it would be best to get 12AWG for this circuit and >use fastons. It would be ~3' between the filter capacitor and my >main bus, both of which have posts. Would 10AWG be better for this section? 20A is handled nicely on 12AWG wire which will fit into a yellow PIDG faston. >As a general rule, tools with unsymetrical dies will have a smaller, >closed-die cross section on the wire grip side. > >which sounds like it would apply to the Crimpmaster. Correct Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: magnetometer location At 11:59 AM 11/1/2009, you wrote: > >I'm using 2 EFIS units and could connect both to the same >magnetometer but wanted to have backup. Is there any problem >mounting them next to each other side by side. Will they interfere >or cross talk with each other? magnetometers don't interfere with each other but their measurement accuracy can be polluted with stray fields from current in wires and nearby magnetic materials. At Beech we used to mount these things out in the wing but located about 12" away from wiring to the tip. Your strobe wiring is magnetically compatible since all outbound electrons are balanced by inbound electrons in the same bundle. Note that the shield on the strobe wire has nothing to do with the magnetics. The nav light wiring could run close to the magnetometers if it were a twisted pair that takes outbound and inbound electrons past any point closer than say 12" to the magnetometer. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:11 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BNC and RG 174 Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit : > > > At 05:34 AM 10/24/2009, you wrote: > > I found the article that speaks to adding BNC > connectors to the ends of smaller diameter wires. > It's at: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG58/RG58.html Bob, Thanks for retrieving the article. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: p-lead signal conditioning or tach gen usage From: "Craig Winkelmann" Bob: Put a scope on the tach gen output. The situation is the signal from the tach gen goes to a 5.1 V zener diode, then to a comparator against a reference voltage to generate a square wave. Attached is the picture of the waveform at low rpm (approx 800). Note the spikes in the wave. Also, the voltage is near the zener voltage so the zener never gets driven into breakdown so that is why the unit has a flakey rpm reading at low rpm. So, would the waveform squaring circuit you posted in an earlier post work to square this waveform? If so, I have 28 VDC available in the aircraft. I'd need to use a 28-5 V converter chip to get the 5 VDC on the collector as you drew it. Any suggestions for this? Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270501#270501 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tach_gen_800_rpm_143.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:54 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: p-lead signal conditioning or tach gen usage From: "Craig Winkelmann" Bob: Forgot to mention that at full RPM (2400) the tach gen signal is a bit more than 40 v peak to peak. Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270508#270508 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relays etc Second, as a short cut to some thinking, I made a habit of checking with how the auto industry wired things - you know if they had a device too rich in current to switch alone, they used relays and the same principle applies. I have never (well once) had to change a car relay since 1948 (and it was corroded) so I guess my aircraft device (homebuilt) could stand it. Bosch relays seem very reliable. Just an idea, An astute and accurate observation my friend. As a rule, relays are considered to be some of the least reliable devices in terms of failures per flight hour. Indeed compared to transistors, capacitors and such, they are way down on the totem pole. So when you're working on a 200 ton ATC aircraft with miles of wiring and tons of electro-whizzies that get exercised 15 hrs a day for weeks at a time, one minimizes the numbers of relays and picks them carefully. Down-time on these aircraft is measured in thousands of dollars per day. In the automotive world, the cost of ownership and magnitude of risk due to failure is much lower than for complex aircraft. Light airplanes are certainly higher risk but failure tolerant design can buffer that risk. Hence, relays need not be avoided where they make sense. One doesn't want to put an ugly-beefy toggle switch in right next to an ordinary 7 - 10A device just to accommodate some heavier load. Relay buffering is a good thing to consider . . . solid state relays even better. Fortunately for us, only things like pitot heat (30A inrush), large landing lights (30-50A inrush) and perhaps hydraulic pump motors (100A inrush) are devices that give pause for extra attention. Relays like this . . . http://tinyurl.com/yhrqnkz are designed and tested to survive under the hood of an automobile. There are other examples in the same family of products. They're made on totally automated machines and are reasonably priced. Once the system demands push much above 7A or offer extra-ordinary inrush loads, a relay may be an ingredient that fits your recipe for success quite well. Having said that, let's talk about any particular situation where you think the relay is a potential solution to a design goal. I about dropped my teeth when I saw this picture the first time: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/TooManyRelays.jpg . . . and these were part of an electrically dependent engine's ignition, fuel and controls system! "One is good" does not morph into "21 is better." Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:13 PM PST US From: RGent1224@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relays etc Try this site for a better price ie $2.49 ea _https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 09110121075049&catname=&qty=1& item=11-2275_ (https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 09110121075049&catname=&qty=1&item=11-2275) They have lots of other goodies also Dick In a message dated 11/1/2009 4:44:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: Second, as a short cut to some thinking, I made a habit of checking with how the auto industry wired things - you know if they had a device too rich in current to switch alone, they used relays and the same principle applies. I have never (well once) had to change a car relay since 1948 (and it was corroded) so I guess my aircraft device (homebuilt) could stand it. Bosch relays seem very reliable. Just an idea, An astute and accurate observation my friend. As a rule, relays are considered to be some of the least reliable devices in terms of failures per flight hour. Indeed compared to transistors, capacitors and such, they are way down on the totem pole. So when you're working on a 200 ton ATC aircraft with miles of wiring and tons of electro-whizzies that get exercised 15 hrs a day for weeks at a time, one minimizes the numbers of relays and picks them carefully. Down-time on these aircraft is measured in thousands of dollars per day. In the automotive world, the cost of ownership and magnitude of risk due to failure is much lower than for complex aircraft. Light airplanes are certainly higher risk but failure tolerant design can buffer that risk. Hence, relays need not be avoided where they make sense. One doesn't want to put an ugly-beefy toggle switch in right next to an ordinary 7 - 10A device just to accommodate some heavier load. Relay buffering is a good thing to consider . . . solid state relays even better. Fortunately for us, only things like pitot heat (30A inrush), large landing lights (30-50A inrush) and perhaps hydraulic pump motors (100A inrush) are devices that give pause for extra attention. Relays like this . . . _http://tinyurl.com/yhrqnkz_ (http://tinyurl.com/yhrqnkz) are designed and tested to survive under the hood of an automobile. There are other examples in the same family of products. They're made on totally automated machines and are reasonably priced. Once the system demands push much above 7A or offer extra-ordinary inrush loads, a relay may be an ingredient that fits your recipe for success quite well. Having said that, let's talk about any particular situation where you think the relay is a potential solution to a design goal. I about dropped my teeth when I saw this picture the first time: _http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/TooManyRelays.jpg _ (http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/TooManyRelays.jpg) . . . and these were part of an electrically dependent engine's ignition, fuel and controls system! "One is good" does not morph into "21 is better." Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) --------------------------------------- (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:22 PM PST US From: "David LLoyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relays etc Dick, Thanks for the web link..... David ----- Original Message ----- From: RGent1224@aol.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 7:10 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relays etc Try this site for a better price ie $2.49 ea https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 09110121075049&catname=& qty=1&item=11-2275 They have lots of other goodies also Dick In a message dated 11/1/2009 4:44:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: Second, as a short cut to some thinking, I made a habit of checking with how the auto industry wired things - you know if they had a device too rich in current to switch alone, they used relays and the same principle applies. I have never (well once) had to change a car relay since 1948 (and it was corroded) so I guess my aircraft device (homebuilt) could stand it. Bosch relays seem very reliable. Just an idea, An astute and accurate observation my friend. As a rule, relays are considered to be some of the least reliable devices in terms of failures per flight hour. Indeed compared to transistors, capacitors and such, they are way down on the totem pole. So when you're working on a 200 ton ATC aircraft with miles of wiring and tons of electro-whizzies that get exercised 15 hrs a day for weeks at a time, one minimizes the numbers of relays and picks them carefully. Down-time on these aircraft is measured in thousands of dollars per day. In the automotive world, the cost of ownership and magnitude of risk due to failure is much lower than for complex aircraft. Light airplanes are certainly higher risk but failure tolerant design can buffer that risk. Hence, relays need not be avoided where they make sense. One doesn't want to put an ugly-beefy toggle switch in right next to an ordinary 7 - 10A device just to accommodate some heavier load. Relay buffering is a good thing to consider . . . solid state relays even better. Fortunately for us, only things like pitot heat (30A inrush), large landing lights (30-50A inrush) and perhaps hydraulic pump motors (100A inrush) are devices that give pause for extra attention. Relays like this . . . http://tinyurl.com/yhrqnkz are designed and tested to survive under the hood of an automobile. There are other examples in the same family of products. They're made on totally automated machines and are reasonably priced. Once the system demands push much above 7A or offer extra-ordinary inrush loads, a relay may be an ingredient that fits your recipe for success quite well. Having said that, let's talk about any particular situation where you think the relay is a potential solution to a design goal. I about dropped my teeth when I saw this picture the first time: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/TooManyRelays.jpg . . . and these were part of an electrically dependent engine's ignition, fuel and controls system! "One is good" does not morph into "21 is better." 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