Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:10 AM - What Are You Thankful For...? (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:01 AM - Re: GPS batteries drain (fox5flyer)
2. 05:20 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Harley)
3. 06:30 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Ken)
4. 08:23 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (messydeer)
5. 08:37 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 08:52 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Harley)
7. 09:30 AM - Re: AGM batteries question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 10:16 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (messydeer)
10. 10:20 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Brooks Wolfe)
11. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
12. 11:56 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (messydeer)
13. 10:42 PM - Re: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:53 PM - Re: MaxPulse and MaxDim (Phil Samuelian)
15. 11:07 PM - Re: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Jay Hyde)
Message 0
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Subject: | What Are You Thankful For...? |
Dear Listers,
Here in the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many
of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends to share in generous
feasts of plenty and giving thanks for many blessings that have been bestowed
upon us.
Many Listers have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are
for the Email Lists and Forums here on the Matronics servers and for all of the
assistance and comradery they have experienced being a part of the Lists.
One of my favorite comments is when someone writes to me and says something like,
"Its the first thing I do in the morning while I'm having my morning coffee!".
That's a wonderful tribute to the purpose and function of these Lists.
Its always great to hear I'm not the only one that jumps out of bed each morning
to check my List email!!
Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for
their continued operation and upgrade?
The List Contribution Site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you in advance for your kind consideration,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: GPS batteries drain |
Sam, I also have a 196 hard wired into my airplane that does the same
thing. I just assumed it was something inherent in the unit. It's
mounted to my stick and since I don't use it as a portable I don't worry
about it. It's been that way for several years.
Deke
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
Morning, Dan...
First...hope you and everyone reading this has a great Thanksgiving!
As far as your short 4 gauge wire, I'm not sure what your concern
is...tension on the contactor terminals maybe? Or not being able to
quite fit it between the two contactors? In either case, my first
thought is to make a new "cable" that is long enough to form a loop so
that it leaves one contactor's terminal and then loops around 360
degrees before it connects to the other. If you can make this loop big
enough, it should remove all tension from the terminals and allow some
give and adjustment in the wire.
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
messydeer wrote:
>
> Depending on the answer to this question, I might have been better off asking
it earlier. I have 4awg welding cable between my battery contactor and my starter
contactor. It's only 2" long, plus the ~1/2" crimped in each terminal. It
fits fine, but now that the lugs are crimped on, it's fairly stiff. In a shorter
wire or a longer section of this fat cable, I'd make them a little long. With
this 2" jobbie, there's no give. I could position the contactors so it puts
a little compression on the cable, or is this even necessary?
>
> --------
> Dan
>
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
Often a copper or brass bar or strap works well if there will be a bend
in it. I use a U shaped thin bar about 1/16" x 3/4" to connect two side
by side contactors. No crimped connectors, it takes up less space, and
it flexes amply so as to not stress terminals.
Ken
Harley wrote:
> Morning, Dan...
>
> First...hope you and everyone reading this has a great Thanksgiving!
>
> As far as your short 4 gauge wire, I'm not sure what your concern
> is...tension on the contactor terminals maybe? Or not being able to
> quite fit it between the two contactors? In either case, my first
> thought is to make a new "cable" that is long enough to form a loop so
> that it leaves one contactor's terminal and then loops around 360
> degrees before it connects to the other. If you can make this loop big
> enough, it should remove all tension from the terminals and allow some
> give and adjustment in the wire.
>
> Harley
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> messydeer wrote:
>>
>> Depending on the answer to this question, I might have been better off asking
it earlier. I have 4awg welding cable between my battery contactor and my starter
contactor. It's only 2" long, plus the ~1/2" crimped in each terminal. It
fits fine, but now that the lugs are crimped on, it's fairly stiff. In a shorter
wire or a longer section of this fat cable, I'd make them a little long.
With this 2" jobbie, there's no give. I could position the contactors so it puts
a little compression on the cable, or is this even necessary?
>>
>> --------
>> Dan
>>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
Thanks, guys :-)
It's the stress on the terminals I'm concerned about. I had outsourced the crimping,
so going with the copper bar would be easier than doing the terminals again.
I had read in the archives that Bob had a comic book describing bridging
a short distance between 2 contactors, but couldn't find anything else on it.
Maybe this is what was meant.
--------
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274947#274947
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
Good Morning Harley,
Or --- Why not just use a Buss Bar?
Beech has used them for years on the Bonanza line.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 11/26/2009 7:21:35 A.M. Central Standard Time,
harley@AgelessWings.com writes:
Morning, Dan...
First...hope you and everyone reading this has a great Thanksgiving!
As far as your short 4 gauge wire, I'm not sure what your concern
is...tension on the contactor terminals maybe? Or not being able to quite fit
it
between the two contactors? In either case, my first thought is to make a
new "cable" that is long enough to form a loop so that it leaves one
contactor's terminal and then loops around 360 degrees before it connects to the
other. If you can make this loop big enough, it should remove all tension
from the terminals and allow some give and adjustment in the wire.
Harley
____________________________________
messydeer wrote:
_<messydeer@yahoo.com>_ (mailto:messydeer@yahoo.com)
Depending on the answer to this question, I might have been better off
asking it earlier. I have 4awg welding cable between my battery contactor and my
starter contactor. It's only 2" long, plus the ~1/2" crimped in each
terminal. It fits fine, but now that the lugs are crimped on, it's fairly stiff.
In a shorter wire or a longer section of this fat cable, I'd make them a
little long. With this 2" jobbie, there's no give. I could position the
contactors so it puts a little compression on the cable, or is this even necessary?
--------
Dan
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
Morning, Bob...
>>Or --- Why not just use a Buss Bar?<<
I thought of that, but it sounded to me like he was trying to find a way
to use a cable for some reason...so I suggested the loop!
...and I hope you are enjoying your Thanksgiving as much as I am mine!
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning Harley,
>
> Or --- Why not just use a Buss Bar?
>
> Beech has used them for years on the Bonanza line.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Downers Grove, Illinois
> Stearman N3977A
>
> In a message dated 11/26/2009 7:21:35 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> harley@AgelessWings.com writes:
>
> Morning, Dan...
>
> First...hope you and everyone reading this has a great Thanksgiving!
>
> As far as your short 4 gauge wire, I'm not sure what your concern
> is...tension on the contactor terminals maybe? Or not being able
> to quite fit it between the two contactors? In either case, my
> first thought is to make a new "cable" that is long enough to form
> a loop so that it leaves one contactor's terminal and then loops
> around 360 degrees before it connects to the other. If you can
> make this loop big enough, it should remove all tension from the
> terminals and allow some give and adjustment in the wire.
>
> Harley
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> messydeer wrote:
>>
>> Depending on the answer to this question, I might have been better off asking
it earlier. I have 4awg welding cable between my battery contactor and my
starter contactor. It's only 2" long, plus the ~1/2" crimped in each terminal.
It fits fine, but now that the lugs are crimped on, it's fairly stiff. In a
shorter wire or a longer section of this fat cable, I'd make them a little long.
With this 2" jobbie, there's no give. I could position the contactors so it
puts a little compression on the cable, or is this even necessary?
>>
>> --------
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> *
>
> *
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: AGM batteries question |
At 01:29 PM 11/25/2009, you wrote:
>
>I am building an RV with Mazda rotary engine that is
>electric-dependent, so I will have 2 batteries, and probably 2
>alternators. It came time to purchase batteries, and I presumed I
>would use the Odyssey PC-680 16AHr AGM units. A web search didn't
>find any bargains (lowest was $118 each, if memory serves).
> A search for AGM batteries led me to Gruber Power Systems, who
> make an 18 AHr unit nearly identical in size and capacity to the
> Odyssey 680, but only $42 each. I have purchased a pair, and am in
> process of mounting and wiring them, but I wonder if anyone has
> experience with or has tested Gruber batteries, or others like
> them, to determine if they are well suited to aircraft use.
ANY reasonable battery is suited to aircraft use IF your
system is designed and crafted for failure tolerance.
In other words, assuming your system is designed such
that failure of a battery brings you to an unplanned
arrival with the earth, then NO battery (or its accessory
connection hardware) can offer at 100.00% level of
certainty for no unhappy days in the cockpit.
First, set up design goals that include conducing
failure mode effects analysis on your proposed system.
You need to KNOW than no single failure of any fragile
or wearing component will present a hazard. If such
components are identified, they are (1) increased in
robustness to achieve reliability of prop-bolts or
(2) backed up by a plan-b. In the case of wearing
components (like batteries, tires, oil, alternator
belts, etc.) you craft a preventative maintenance plan
that identifies and replaces a sub-standard component
long before its ability to deliver to design goals
is compromised.
> I did notice that the terminals are noticably thinner than what
> one sees on the Odysseys, being a half inch tall and wide, but only
> 1/16" thick protruding up from the battery top. Makes me wonder if
> these batteries won't supply the high current needed for starting
> an engine, only having long life in lower current demand applications.
Starting the engine is the LEAST of your concerns.
Battery sizing (energy stored in a NEW battery)
and performance tracking (energy stored in a USED
battery) are the drivers for your battery selection
and maintenance activities.
> Any experience you can share?
Be wary of anecdotal experiences. There are many, MANY
combinations of condition and stress that drive the
performance of a battery. Some combinations can make
a platinum plated super-battery look like a brick of
lead while other conditions induce owners to heap praises
upon their bargain-barn battery.
If selected, installed and maintained with rudimentary
knowledge of requirements to meet design goals ANY
battery (including your $42 find) is a candidate
for exploration.
You will have to judge for yourself whether your
choice has performed to satisfactory cost-of-ownership
values. You won't have that answer for several years.
In the mean time, be VERY wary of those who extol
the virtues of their own choices: "My Excalibur 1000
cranking-amp battery has been spinning my engine for
6 years now . . . best battery I've ever owned."
Ask that fellow how long that battery runs his
electro-whizzies if the alternator quits. It's
almost a sure bet he can't tell you.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Concorde/owner_manual_new.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battery.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rg_bat.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/allelect.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_thd.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/neveragain/neveragain_2.html
The short answer to your question is: Yeah, that battery
should be included in your suite of choices. Plan
on doing periodic capacity and load-dump testing to
insure continued flight-worthiness in concert with
your design goals.
See chapter 17 of:
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/pub/pub.html#P-Book
In the mean time, what are you building? What's your
proposed electrical system architecture look like?
Have you done a load analysis of all the electro-whizzies
on your airplane to size your energy requirements
for normal and abnormal operating conditions?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
At 10:21 AM 11/26/2009, you wrote:
>
>Thanks, guys :-)
>
>It's the stress on the terminals I'm concerned about. I had
>outsourced the crimping, so going with the copper bar would be
>easier than doing the terminals again. I had read in the archives
>that Bob had a comic book describing bridging a short distance
>between 2 contactors, but couldn't find anything else on it. Maybe
>this is what was meant.
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Contactor_Interconnect/
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! )
( Do your part to keep this marvelous )
( tool sharp and available to all our )
( brothers in the OBAM aviation )
( community. )
---------------------------------------
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
Yes, thanks everybody. Those pics help, Bob :-)
Looks like some are made of brass and some of copper. Would copper work better
in my case, since it would flex a bit more than brass? Post to post would be ~4"
with a 90 twist.
My pic shows the situation. The cable from the battery positive to battery contactor
is also pretty short, but I can mount it with enough flex to make me happy.
There'll be a little more flex when the 2nd hole is drilled after the contactor
is rotated a few degrees counterclockwise.
I had not particularly wisely opened a couple holes for the starter contactor to
3/16, then ended up having my starter lead too short. That's what the 3/16 clecos
go through. So I moved things over a couple inches and can use one of the
bigger holes for the battery contactor.
I had hoped the starter contactor could use the other big hole, as shown in the
pic, but there is a 3/4" square tube stiffener it would interfere with behind
the vertical row of holes. Due to the starter cable length, I can only move
the starter contactor to the right (referenced from the pic) and/or up. It only
needs to go an inch or less to straddle the firewall stiffener, but the cable
won't make it that far.
--------
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274962#274962
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/short_contactor_cable_400.jpg
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
Bus bar stock is Van's setup as well. Van's plans actually call for it t
o
be doubled-up between the contactors. In such short distances, I think i
t's
easier to work with than soldered terminal lugs in 4ga cable.
Brooks
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
Good Afternoon Dan,
I would use copper.
It has better conductivity and withstands bending better. If you look
closely at 'Lectric Bob's Beechcraft photos you may note that Beech often
applies a coating over their buss bars, I have used tool handle dip material for
such purposes
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:17:25 P.M. Central Standard Time,
messydeer@yahoo.com writes:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/short_contactor_cable_400.jpg
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
> I would use copper.
>
> It has better conductivity and withstands bending better. If you look closely
at 'Lectric Bob's Beechcraft photos you may note that Beech often applies a coating
over their buss bars, I have used tool handle dip material for such purposes
Thanks, Bob :-)
I did notice that pic and could see a little copper colored area just around one
connection, but didn't know what to use for the insulation. If my hardware store
doesn't have 063 I can get some from Vans, like Brooks said. But Brooks,
you said Vans says to double it? Not having it in hand, I'd be concerned about
it being too stiff then. According to my notes, #4 cross section is 0.0327 sq
in. So 063 x 1/2" would purtneer the same without doubling.
--------
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274969#274969
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
At 01:54 PM 11/26/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> > I would use copper.
> >
> > It has better conductivity and withstands bending better. If you
> look closely at 'Lectric Bob's Beechcraft photos you may note that
> Beech often applies a coating over their buss bars, I have used
> tool handle dip material for such purposes
>
>
>Thanks, Bob :-)
>
>I did notice that pic and could see a little copper colored area
>just around one connection, but didn't know what to use for the
>insulation. If my hardware store doesn't have 063 I can get some
>from Vans, like Brooks said. But Brooks, you said Vans says to
>double it? Not having it in hand, I'd be concerned about it being
>too stiff then. According to my notes, #4 cross section is 0.0327 sq
>in. So 063 x 1/2" would purtneer the same without doubling.
You're going to drill 5/16" holes in the straps
so 5/8" width material would give you better edge
margins. But given the necessary twist and the
angles . . . I'd go for a longer piece of 4AWG
installed for comfortable as opposed to tight
fit. It's going to be a whole bunch easier to
fabricate and will look nicer in the long run.
An extra inch or more in wire length is not
going to be a performance issue.
Bob . . .
>--------
>Dan
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274969#274969
>
>
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! )
( Do your part to keep this marvelous )
( tool sharp and available to all our )
( brothers in the OBAM aviation )
( community. )
---------------------------------------
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: MaxPulse and MaxDim |
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving...
Just a reminder...
Last call for the MaxDim / MaxPulse group buy is this Sunday,
11/29/2009.
If you want to purchase a MaxDim for $121+3.35 shipping or a MaxPulse
for $141+$3.35 shipping, please go to
samcoaviation.com
and complete the purchase through PayPal. The $8 rebate per unit will
be refunded to you as a manual PayPal refund.
Thanks to all who have participated already!
On Nov 16, 2009, at 7:49 AM, Phil Samuelian wrote:
> This is a good time to have another MaxDim and MaxPulse "Group Buy".
> Wholesale prices on Seaton Engineering products are being raised
> substantially on December 1. I set up a "Group Buy" almost a year
> ago for U.S. List members only, so here we go again...
>
> If you're looking for the most sophisticated panel dimmer for your
> project, the MaxDim is it.
> If you're looking for a sophisticated landing light controller for
> your project, check out the MaxPulse.
>
> So, through November 29, 2009 order as many as you want at
> samcoaviation.com and receive an $8 rebate off the posted price when
> you add the note "Aeroelectric List Group Buy" during check out.
> Rebates will be applied to your PayPal account after the order is
> placed because I have to do this manually.
> $3.35 shipping (+ sales tax in CA), but multiple unit orders will
> ship together and receive a shipping discount, too (added to rebate).
>
> These dimmers are unparalleled in performance...
> NO heat, NO separate, bulky control unit. NO heatsink. Amazing 350W
> power control in a 1.25" diameter unit.
> This is a best-of-breed product. Mooney has specified these for all
> their new planes! (STC and PMA)
> 5-35VDC, 12.5Amps and less than 1 ounce!
> Hook up power, ground, and lights (3 connections), 2 mounting holes
> to drill, and you're done.
>
> The 2 units in my Cessna have been installed for over a year, and
> still perform flawlessly.
> See the specs at samcoaviation.com
> Prices are already better than most dealers, plus now you get an
> additional $8 off each unit until Nov 29, 2009.
> Thanks,
> Phil
> RV7, Cessna 177
>
> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:32 AM, cherokee wrote:
>
>> Hey list members. Just thought I would let you all know that we
>> completed our installation of the MaxPulse and MaxDim units in our
>> 150, 4 months ago now. These things run cool and are a dream to
>> install. These correct so many problems we encounter as aircraft
>> owners. Like replacing the rheostats or the big dual dimmer that
>> costs $1200 from Cessna. Yikes.
>> You can see these at www.maxpulsemaxdim.com .
>>
>> I see another member is gathering a group together for a special
>> buy on the MaxDim, I think I will join in that effort for our other
>> Cub.
>>
>> Mark
>> Eagle River, Alaska
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? |
I find that a good source of copper is copper water pipe; heat it up to
almost red hot with a blow torch and let it cool naturally to anneal it and
then you can hammer or squash it flat in a vice and cut it to size. A
couple of layers of heat shrink for insulation and you've got the bus bar/
connector.
SA Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of messydeer
Sent: 26 November 2009 09:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short?
> I would use copper.
>
> It has better conductivity and withstands bending better. If you look
closely at 'Lectric Bob's Beechcraft photos you may note that Beech often
applies a coating over their buss bars, I have used tool handle dip material
for such purposes
Thanks, Bob :-)
I did notice that pic and could see a little copper colored area just around
one connection, but didn't know what to use for the insulation. If my
hardware store doesn't have 063 I can get some from Vans, like Brooks said.
But Brooks, you said Vans says to double it? Not having it in hand, I'd be
concerned about it being too stiff then. According to my notes, #4 cross
section is 0.0327 sq in. So 063 x 1/2" would purtneer the same without
doubling.
--------
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274969#274969
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