---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/26/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:10 AM - What Are You Thankful For...? (Matt Dralle) 1. 05:01 AM - Re: GPS batteries drain (fox5flyer) 2. 05:20 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Harley) 3. 06:30 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Ken) 4. 08:23 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (messydeer) 5. 08:37 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 6. 08:52 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Harley) 7. 09:30 AM - Re: AGM batteries question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 10:16 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (messydeer) 10. 10:20 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Brooks Wolfe) 11. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 12. 11:56 AM - Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (messydeer) 13. 10:42 PM - Re: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 10:53 PM - Re: MaxPulse and MaxDim (Phil Samuelian) 15. 11:07 PM - Re: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? (Jay Hyde) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:28 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: What Are You Thankful For...? Dear Listers, Here in the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends to share in generous feasts of plenty and giving thanks for many blessings that have been bestowed upon us. Many Listers have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are for the Email Lists and Forums here on the Matronics servers and for all of the assistance and comradery they have experienced being a part of the Lists. One of my favorite comments is when someone writes to me and says something like, "Its the first thing I do in the morning while I'm having my morning coffee!". That's a wonderful tribute to the purpose and function of these Lists. Its always great to hear I'm not the only one that jumps out of bed each morning to check my List email!! Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for their continued operation and upgrade? The List Contribution Site is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you in advance for your kind consideration, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:17 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS batteries drain Sam, I also have a 196 hard wired into my airplane that does the same thing. I just assumed it was something inherent in the unit. It's mounted to my stick and since I don't use it as a portable I don't worry about it. It's been that way for several years. Deke ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:26 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Can a 4awg cable be too short? Morning, Dan... First...hope you and everyone reading this has a great Thanksgiving! As far as your short 4 gauge wire, I'm not sure what your concern is...tension on the contactor terminals maybe? Or not being able to quite fit it between the two contactors? In either case, my first thought is to make a new "cable" that is long enough to form a loop so that it leaves one contactor's terminal and then loops around 360 degrees before it connects to the other. If you can make this loop big enough, it should remove all tension from the terminals and allow some give and adjustment in the wire. Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ messydeer wrote: > > Depending on the answer to this question, I might have been better off asking it earlier. I have 4awg welding cable between my battery contactor and my starter contactor. It's only 2" long, plus the ~1/2" crimped in each terminal. It fits fine, but now that the lugs are crimped on, it's fairly stiff. In a shorter wire or a longer section of this fat cable, I'd make them a little long. With this 2" jobbie, there's no give. I could position the contactors so it puts a little compression on the cable, or is this even necessary? > > -------- > Dan > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:38 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Can a 4awg cable be too short? Often a copper or brass bar or strap works well if there will be a bend in it. I use a U shaped thin bar about 1/16" x 3/4" to connect two side by side contactors. No crimped connectors, it takes up less space, and it flexes amply so as to not stress terminals. Ken Harley wrote: > Morning, Dan... > > First...hope you and everyone reading this has a great Thanksgiving! > > As far as your short 4 gauge wire, I'm not sure what your concern > is...tension on the contactor terminals maybe? Or not being able to > quite fit it between the two contactors? In either case, my first > thought is to make a new "cable" that is long enough to form a loop so > that it leaves one contactor's terminal and then loops around 360 > degrees before it connects to the other. If you can make this loop big > enough, it should remove all tension from the terminals and allow some > give and adjustment in the wire. > > Harley > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > messydeer wrote: >> >> Depending on the answer to this question, I might have been better off asking it earlier. I have 4awg welding cable between my battery contactor and my starter contactor. It's only 2" long, plus the ~1/2" crimped in each terminal. It fits fine, but now that the lugs are crimped on, it's fairly stiff. In a shorter wire or a longer section of this fat cable, I'd make them a little long. With this 2" jobbie, there's no give. I could position the contactors so it puts a little compression on the cable, or is this even necessary? >> >> -------- >> Dan >> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:51 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? From: "messydeer" Thanks, guys :-) It's the stress on the terminals I'm concerned about. I had outsourced the crimping, so going with the copper bar would be easier than doing the terminals again. I had read in the archives that Bob had a comic book describing bridging a short distance between 2 contactors, but couldn't find anything else on it. Maybe this is what was meant. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274947#274947 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:08 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Can a 4awg cable be too short? Good Morning Harley, Or --- Why not just use a Buss Bar? Beech has used them for years on the Bonanza line. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 11/26/2009 7:21:35 A.M. Central Standard Time, harley@AgelessWings.com writes: Morning, Dan... First...hope you and everyone reading this has a great Thanksgiving! As far as your short 4 gauge wire, I'm not sure what your concern is...tension on the contactor terminals maybe? Or not being able to quite fit it between the two contactors? In either case, my first thought is to make a new "cable" that is long enough to form a loop so that it leaves one contactor's terminal and then loops around 360 degrees before it connects to the other. If you can make this loop big enough, it should remove all tension from the terminals and allow some give and adjustment in the wire. Harley ____________________________________ messydeer wrote: __ (mailto:messydeer@yahoo.com) Depending on the answer to this question, I might have been better off asking it earlier. I have 4awg welding cable between my battery contactor and my starter contactor. It's only 2" long, plus the ~1/2" crimped in each terminal. It fits fine, but now that the lugs are crimped on, it's fairly stiff. In a shorter wire or a longer section of this fat cable, I'd make them a little long. With this 2" jobbie, there's no give. I could position the contactors so it puts a little compression on the cable, or is this even necessary? -------- Dan (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:30 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Can a 4awg cable be too short? Morning, Bob... >>Or --- Why not just use a Buss Bar?<< I thought of that, but it sounded to me like he was trying to find a way to use a cable for some reason...so I suggested the loop! ...and I hope you are enjoying your Thanksgiving as much as I am mine! Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Harley, > > Or --- Why not just use a Buss Bar? > > Beech has used them for years on the Bonanza line. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Downers Grove, Illinois > Stearman N3977A > > In a message dated 11/26/2009 7:21:35 A.M. Central Standard Time, > harley@AgelessWings.com writes: > > Morning, Dan... > > First...hope you and everyone reading this has a great Thanksgiving! > > As far as your short 4 gauge wire, I'm not sure what your concern > is...tension on the contactor terminals maybe? Or not being able > to quite fit it between the two contactors? In either case, my > first thought is to make a new "cable" that is long enough to form > a loop so that it leaves one contactor's terminal and then loops > around 360 degrees before it connects to the other. If you can > make this loop big enough, it should remove all tension from the > terminals and allow some give and adjustment in the wire. > > Harley > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > messydeer wrote: >> >> Depending on the answer to this question, I might have been better off asking it earlier. I have 4awg welding cable between my battery contactor and my starter contactor. It's only 2" long, plus the ~1/2" crimped in each terminal. It fits fine, but now that the lugs are crimped on, it's fairly stiff. In a shorter wire or a longer section of this fat cable, I'd make them a little long. With this 2" jobbie, there's no give. I could position the contactors so it puts a little compression on the cable, or is this even necessary? >> >> -------- >> Dan >> >> >> >> > > * > > * ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AGM batteries question At 01:29 PM 11/25/2009, you wrote: > >I am building an RV with Mazda rotary engine that is >electric-dependent, so I will have 2 batteries, and probably 2 >alternators. It came time to purchase batteries, and I presumed I >would use the Odyssey PC-680 16AHr AGM units. A web search didn't >find any bargains (lowest was $118 each, if memory serves). > A search for AGM batteries led me to Gruber Power Systems, who > make an 18 AHr unit nearly identical in size and capacity to the > Odyssey 680, but only $42 each. I have purchased a pair, and am in > process of mounting and wiring them, but I wonder if anyone has > experience with or has tested Gruber batteries, or others like > them, to determine if they are well suited to aircraft use. ANY reasonable battery is suited to aircraft use IF your system is designed and crafted for failure tolerance. In other words, assuming your system is designed such that failure of a battery brings you to an unplanned arrival with the earth, then NO battery (or its accessory connection hardware) can offer at 100.00% level of certainty for no unhappy days in the cockpit. First, set up design goals that include conducing failure mode effects analysis on your proposed system. You need to KNOW than no single failure of any fragile or wearing component will present a hazard. If such components are identified, they are (1) increased in robustness to achieve reliability of prop-bolts or (2) backed up by a plan-b. In the case of wearing components (like batteries, tires, oil, alternator belts, etc.) you craft a preventative maintenance plan that identifies and replaces a sub-standard component long before its ability to deliver to design goals is compromised. > I did notice that the terminals are noticably thinner than what > one sees on the Odysseys, being a half inch tall and wide, but only > 1/16" thick protruding up from the battery top. Makes me wonder if > these batteries won't supply the high current needed for starting > an engine, only having long life in lower current demand applications. Starting the engine is the LEAST of your concerns. Battery sizing (energy stored in a NEW battery) and performance tracking (energy stored in a USED battery) are the drivers for your battery selection and maintenance activities. > Any experience you can share? Be wary of anecdotal experiences. There are many, MANY combinations of condition and stress that drive the performance of a battery. Some combinations can make a platinum plated super-battery look like a brick of lead while other conditions induce owners to heap praises upon their bargain-barn battery. If selected, installed and maintained with rudimentary knowledge of requirements to meet design goals ANY battery (including your $42 find) is a candidate for exploration. You will have to judge for yourself whether your choice has performed to satisfactory cost-of-ownership values. You won't have that answer for several years. In the mean time, be VERY wary of those who extol the virtues of their own choices: "My Excalibur 1000 cranking-amp battery has been spinning my engine for 6 years now . . . best battery I've ever owned." Ask that fellow how long that battery runs his electro-whizzies if the alternator quits. It's almost a sure bet he can't tell you. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Concorde/owner_manual_new.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battery.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rg_bat.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/allelect.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_thd.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/neveragain/neveragain_2.html The short answer to your question is: Yeah, that battery should be included in your suite of choices. Plan on doing periodic capacity and load-dump testing to insure continued flight-worthiness in concert with your design goals. See chapter 17 of: https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/pub/pub.html#P-Book In the mean time, what are you building? What's your proposed electrical system architecture look like? Have you done a load analysis of all the electro-whizzies on your airplane to size your energy requirements for normal and abnormal operating conditions? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? At 10:21 AM 11/26/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks, guys :-) > >It's the stress on the terminals I'm concerned about. I had >outsourced the crimping, so going with the copper bar would be >easier than doing the terminals again. I had read in the archives >that Bob had a comic book describing bridging a short distance >between 2 contactors, but couldn't find anything else on it. Maybe >this is what was meant. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Contactor_Interconnect/ Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! ) ( Do your part to keep this marvelous ) ( tool sharp and available to all our ) ( brothers in the OBAM aviation ) ( community. ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:17 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? From: "messydeer" Yes, thanks everybody. Those pics help, Bob :-) Looks like some are made of brass and some of copper. Would copper work better in my case, since it would flex a bit more than brass? Post to post would be ~4" with a 90 twist. My pic shows the situation. The cable from the battery positive to battery contactor is also pretty short, but I can mount it with enough flex to make me happy. There'll be a little more flex when the 2nd hole is drilled after the contactor is rotated a few degrees counterclockwise. I had not particularly wisely opened a couple holes for the starter contactor to 3/16, then ended up having my starter lead too short. That's what the 3/16 clecos go through. So I moved things over a couple inches and can use one of the bigger holes for the battery contactor. I had hoped the starter contactor could use the other big hole, as shown in the pic, but there is a 3/4" square tube stiffener it would interfere with behind the vertical row of holes. Due to the starter cable length, I can only move the starter contactor to the right (referenced from the pic) and/or up. It only needs to go an inch or less to straddle the firewall stiffener, but the cable won't make it that far. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274962#274962 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/short_contactor_cable_400.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:33 AM PST US From: "Brooks Wolfe" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? Bus bar stock is Van's setup as well. Van's plans actually call for it t o be doubled-up between the contactors. In such short distances, I think i t's easier to work with than soldered terminal lugs in 4ga cable. Brooks ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:37 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? Good Afternoon Dan, I would use copper. It has better conductivity and withstands bending better. If you look closely at 'Lectric Bob's Beechcraft photos you may note that Beech often applies a coating over their buss bars, I have used tool handle dip material for such purposes Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:17:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, messydeer@yahoo.com writes: http://forums.matronics.com//files/short_contactor_cable_400.jpg ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:25 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? From: "messydeer" > I would use copper. > > It has better conductivity and withstands bending better. If you look closely at 'Lectric Bob's Beechcraft photos you may note that Beech often applies a coating over their buss bars, I have used tool handle dip material for such purposes Thanks, Bob :-) I did notice that pic and could see a little copper colored area just around one connection, but didn't know what to use for the insulation. If my hardware store doesn't have 063 I can get some from Vans, like Brooks said. But Brooks, you said Vans says to double it? Not having it in hand, I'd be concerned about it being too stiff then. According to my notes, #4 cross section is 0.0327 sq in. So 063 x 1/2" would purtneer the same without doubling. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274969#274969 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:15 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? At 01:54 PM 11/26/2009, you wrote: > > > > I would use copper. > > > > It has better conductivity and withstands bending better. If you > look closely at 'Lectric Bob's Beechcraft photos you may note that > Beech often applies a coating over their buss bars, I have used > tool handle dip material for such purposes > > >Thanks, Bob :-) > >I did notice that pic and could see a little copper colored area >just around one connection, but didn't know what to use for the >insulation. If my hardware store doesn't have 063 I can get some >from Vans, like Brooks said. But Brooks, you said Vans says to >double it? Not having it in hand, I'd be concerned about it being >too stiff then. According to my notes, #4 cross section is 0.0327 sq >in. So 063 x 1/2" would purtneer the same without doubling. You're going to drill 5/16" holes in the straps so 5/8" width material would give you better edge margins. But given the necessary twist and the angles . . . I'd go for a longer piece of 4AWG installed for comfortable as opposed to tight fit. It's going to be a whole bunch easier to fabricate and will look nicer in the long run. An extra inch or more in wire length is not going to be a performance issue. Bob . . . >-------- >Dan > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274969#274969 > > Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! ) ( Do your part to keep this marvelous ) ( tool sharp and available to all our ) ( brothers in the OBAM aviation ) ( community. ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:34 PM PST US From: Phil Samuelian Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MaxPulse and MaxDim Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving... Just a reminder... Last call for the MaxDim / MaxPulse group buy is this Sunday, 11/29/2009. If you want to purchase a MaxDim for $121+3.35 shipping or a MaxPulse for $141+$3.35 shipping, please go to samcoaviation.com and complete the purchase through PayPal. The $8 rebate per unit will be refunded to you as a manual PayPal refund. Thanks to all who have participated already! On Nov 16, 2009, at 7:49 AM, Phil Samuelian wrote: > This is a good time to have another MaxDim and MaxPulse "Group Buy". > Wholesale prices on Seaton Engineering products are being raised > substantially on December 1. I set up a "Group Buy" almost a year > ago for U.S. List members only, so here we go again... > > If you're looking for the most sophisticated panel dimmer for your > project, the MaxDim is it. > If you're looking for a sophisticated landing light controller for > your project, check out the MaxPulse. > > So, through November 29, 2009 order as many as you want at > samcoaviation.com and receive an $8 rebate off the posted price when > you add the note "Aeroelectric List Group Buy" during check out. > Rebates will be applied to your PayPal account after the order is > placed because I have to do this manually. > $3.35 shipping (+ sales tax in CA), but multiple unit orders will > ship together and receive a shipping discount, too (added to rebate). > > These dimmers are unparalleled in performance... > NO heat, NO separate, bulky control unit. NO heatsink. Amazing 350W > power control in a 1.25" diameter unit. > This is a best-of-breed product. Mooney has specified these for all > their new planes! (STC and PMA) > 5-35VDC, 12.5Amps and less than 1 ounce! > Hook up power, ground, and lights (3 connections), 2 mounting holes > to drill, and you're done. > > The 2 units in my Cessna have been installed for over a year, and > still perform flawlessly. > See the specs at samcoaviation.com > Prices are already better than most dealers, plus now you get an > additional $8 off each unit until Nov 29, 2009. > Thanks, > Phil > RV7, Cessna 177 > > On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:32 AM, cherokee wrote: > >> Hey list members. Just thought I would let you all know that we >> completed our installation of the MaxPulse and MaxDim units in our >> 150, 4 months ago now. These things run cool and are a dream to >> install. These correct so many problems we encounter as aircraft >> owners. Like replacing the rheostats or the big dual dimmer that >> costs $1200 from Cessna. Yikes. >> You can see these at www.maxpulsemaxdim.com . >> >> I see another member is gathering a group together for a special >> buy on the MaxDim, I think I will join in that effort for our other >> Cub. >> >> Mark >> Eagle River, Alaska > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:22 PM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? I find that a good source of copper is copper water pipe; heat it up to almost red hot with a blow torch and let it cool naturally to anneal it and then you can hammer or squash it flat in a vice and cut it to size. A couple of layers of heat shrink for insulation and you've got the bus bar/ connector. SA Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of messydeer Sent: 26 November 2009 09:54 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Can a 4awg cable be too short? > I would use copper. > > It has better conductivity and withstands bending better. If you look closely at 'Lectric Bob's Beechcraft photos you may note that Beech often applies a coating over their buss bars, I have used tool handle dip material for such purposes Thanks, Bob :-) I did notice that pic and could see a little copper colored area just around one connection, but didn't know what to use for the insulation. If my hardware store doesn't have 063 I can get some from Vans, like Brooks said. But Brooks, you said Vans says to double it? Not having it in hand, I'd be concerned about it being too stiff then. According to my notes, #4 cross section is 0.0327 sq in. So 063 x 1/2" would purtneer the same without doubling. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274969#274969 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.