---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/01/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:43 AM - Re: Auxillary Battery Installation... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:46 AM - Re: Auxillary Battery Installation... () 3. 09:35 AM - Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer (Geoff Heap) 4. 10:16 AM - Re: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer (Sam Hoskins) 5. 10:51 AM - Re: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer (Jared Yates) 6. 10:57 AM - Re: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer (Geoff Heap) 7. 11:06 AM - Re: Contactor Failure (Speedy11@aol.com) 8. 11:19 AM - Re: Auxillary Battery Installation... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 11:30 AM - Re: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:48 AM - 2 wires a little springy on my panel channel tray (messydeer) 11. 11:51 AM - Re: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer (Bob Borger) 12. 11:57 AM - Re: 2 wires a little springy on my panel channel tray (messydeer) 13. 12:16 PM - Re: 2 wires a little springy on my panel channel tray (messydeer) 14. 01:15 PM - Doubling up on Sensors and Probes (Clint \) 15. 02:26 PM - Re: Re: Contactor Failure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 04:52 PM - How do you test a circuit breaker? () 17. 05:19 PM - Re: How do you test a circuit breaker? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 06:41 PM - Re: Auxillary Battery Installation... () 19. 09:31 PM - glide slope anenna (William Hibbing) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auxillary Battery Installation... At 09:53 PM 11/30/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob and Dan, > >My 10 foot deal was to move the battery behind the seat as I am short of >room on the firewall where the primary battery is. If necessary I may be >able to strap this thing inside the firewall behind the panel to keep >the wires short. Hmmmm . . . it would be best to keep the wires short. What combination of equipment and design goals are driving the need for an extra battery? >The B & C Notes indicated a 3.0 Amp charging limit? Is that an issue >with the charge coming off the alternator? ALL manufacturers of small batteries would HOPE that their product never gets charged above some fairly benign value. Bottom line is that when installed in most vehicles, there's no way to practically observe those limits. As long as the battery is seldom or never asked to do its job and becomes seriously depleted, then it will not be subjected to high recharge rates as a routine matter. However, hanging little batteries off a robust bus does raise questions about flight-worthiness. This battery should be tested for capacity at every annual. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! ) ( Do your part to keep this marvelous ) ( tool sharp and available to all our ) ( brothers in the OBAM aviation ) ( community. ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:28 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auxillary Battery Installation... From: Thanks Bob, Yeah, nothing is easy. My goal for the backup battery is to ensure reliability of my electrically dependent ignition should a major event occur in the primary charging/battery system. Note, I have an SD8 for a backup alt which feeds the essential bus. So, the design goal is that when all else fails, the backup battery would run one side of the ignition and provide time for me down safely. I suppose one option would be to isolate the battery from the charging system, but that would require constant monitoring on my part. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 9:40 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auxillary Battery Installation... At 09:53 PM 11/30/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob and Dan, > >My 10 foot deal was to move the battery behind the seat as I am short of >room on the firewall where the primary battery is. If necessary I may be >able to strap this thing inside the firewall behind the panel to keep >the wires short. Hmmmm . . . it would be best to keep the wires short. What combination of equipment and design goals are driving the need for an extra battery? >The B & C Notes indicated a 3.0 Amp charging limit? Is that an issue >with the charge coming off the alternator? ALL manufacturers of small batteries would HOPE that their product never gets charged above some fairly benign value. Bottom line is that when installed in most vehicles, there's no way to practically observe those limits. As long as the battery is seldom or never asked to do its job and becomes seriously depleted, then it will not be subjected to high recharge rates as a routine matter. However, hanging little batteries off a robust bus does raise questions about flight-worthiness. This battery should be tested for capacity at every annual. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! ) ( Do your part to keep this marvelous ) ( tool sharp and available to all our ) ( brothers in the OBAM aviation ) ( community. ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:10 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer From: "Geoff Heap" Bob I just came across your offer of March 2008 for $12.00 coax strippers. I'm sure they are gone by now. Please suggest a source for these now. The ones I'm finding are quite expensive.($60 +).Geoff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275611#275611 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer From: Sam Hoskins You can get them at Radio Shack. On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Geoff Heap wrote: > > > Bob I just came across your offer of March 2008 for $12.00 coax > strippers. I'm sure they are gone by now. Please suggest a source for the se > now. The ones I'm finding are quite expensive.($60 +)=85.Geoff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275611#275611 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:17 AM PST US From: "Jared Yates" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer I believe you can buy some coax cutting dies for the ideal stripmaster, or you can buy the stripmaster with the coax dies if you don't already have one. I'm not sure that it would fit your needs, but if it does it would be much less than $60. The complete tool is available at the big orange where I live for around $30, and you can get the dies here: http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/ide11-24.html Check and see if that would work. If you already have a stripmaster, then buying the additional dies would be in your price range. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer You can get them at Radio Shack. On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Geoff Heap wrote: Bob I just came across your offer of March 2008 for $12.00 coax strippers. I'm sure they are gone by now. Please suggest a source for these now. The ones I'm finding are quite expensive.($60 +)..Geoff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275611#275611 ========== ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. ========== -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer From: "Geoff Heap" Thanks Sam. Found it in stock at my nearest RS for $14.99. Spreading the good news. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275620#275620 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/coaxcablestripper_857.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:49 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor Failure The contactor in question is a B&C S702-1. I talked to Bill Bainbridge at B&C and he suggested trying the contactor again. I will bench test it (actually already have but will do it again) and rewire according to B&C diagram with battery switch between battery and starter contactor. That way I can remove power to the contactor if needed. Right now I have installed a continuous duty contactor that I had lying on the shelf, but it doesn't fit into my space as well as the B&C contactor. I did consider using only the starter-fitted contactor, but was trying to follow Aeroelectric advice so inserted the additional contactor. It would take additional wiring effort now to change. The B&C S702-1 contactor has an internal diode so the starter switch was connected to the S terminal with no external diode. I did not install a starter engaged light, but plan to add one as I rewire things. Rewiring will consist of adding #2 welding cable from the battery to the battery switch and then to the contactor. Also I'll wire up a starter engaged light. Stan Sutterfield >I reviewed my wiring diagrams and I did not run my starter current >through the battery master prior to going to the starter contactor >and then to the starter solenoid. I will make the correction. That change would prevent a repeat of your most recent experience. But if the failed intermittent duty contactor has been replaced with the same part, then you may be setting yourself up for an identical albeit less traumatic repeat. It may be that your starter contactor is not necessary at all. Have you considered using only that contactor which is fitted to the starter? How did you wire the starter contactor's engagement power terminal? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auxillary Battery Installation... At 10:38 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob, > >Yeah, nothing is easy. My goal for the backup battery is to ensure >reliability of my electrically dependent ignition should a major event >occur in the primary charging/battery system. Note, I have an SD8 for a >backup alt which feeds the essential bus. Okay, how many electrical feeds are necessary to keep the engine running and what devices do they service? >So, the design goal is that when all else fails, I'll suggest we strive to eliminate "when all else fails" from the lexicon of airplanespeak. It's a vague, broad brush admission that we're unsure as to the SYSTEM reliability of our design. The feel-good response is to stack on "safety enhancements" that tend to prop up an ill-defined or mis-understood system. "All else" says you've suffered MULTIPLE failures of items necessary for continued flight . . . or perhaps ONE failure for which no plan-b was crafted. If you have an SD-8 + main alternator and an RG battery, perhaps you already have enough stuff to keep the grim- salvager from getting a call to come clean up the aluminum mess you made. Give us a list the electro-whizzies that keep the engine going along with their current requirements and we'll go from there. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! ) ( Do your part to keep this marvelous ) ( tool sharp and available to all our ) ( brothers in the OBAM aviation ) ( community. ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer At 11:30 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: > >Bob I just came across your offer of March >2008 for $12.00 coax strippers. I'm sure they >are gone by now. Please suggest a source for >these now. The ones I'm finding are quite expensive.($60 +).Geoff > > >Emacs! At the time I made that offer, I had just evaluated a number of offerings before settling on this one. I'm NOT saying that other products are incapable of doing a SATISFACTORY job. This model was particularly attractive for its adjustability and the ease with which I could remove a blade to craft a 2-cut stripper. I have several of these critters in the toolbox adjusted, sometimes modified and labeled to specific stripping tasks. The supplier that stocked my inventory is still selling this model on Ebay. See: http://tinyurl.com/yzlg6yt Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:17 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: 2 wires a little springy on my panel channel tray From: "messydeer" Hello :-) I have nearly finished the wiring of my instrument panel switches in my mockup instrument panel. My Sonex has a 30 degree tilt in the panel, which limits how low switches can be mounted, since there is an 025 channel behind the panel with the flanges facing up. I use this channel as a tray for the wires. In the area behind the switches, I cutoff the rear flange flush with the web of the channel to make room for the wires. I'm not sure yet how I could dress the cut edge. Ideas? I'd also like input on anything you see that could be a problem. I'm mainly concerned about the two shielded mag cables. They rest on top of the channel tray. Well, actually, they do a little more than rest there. These two white cables put maybe 1 pound total pressure against the underlying tray, so it wants to spring up a little. Is this okay? All the other wires don't put any force on the tray at all. Some are shown dangling over the edge, which is only temporary. Final installation will have no wires near metal edges. The instrument panel has a piano hinge on the bottom edge that connects it to the channel tray. All the wires come from the left of the pics. I have spiral wrap around the wires that originated forward of the firewall. Wires from the main buss will be zip tied to this, as will the grounds going back to the panel ground buss. Both main and ground busses are also to the left of the pics. My Enigma display will fit in the cutout area to the left of the switches. The two white 20awg shielded mag wires exit the spiral wrap a couple inches from the end and make a roughly 270 degree loop as they go up to the switches. This is to allow room for them to go forward when the panel is opened. But the looping also causes that little spring. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275625#275625 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wires_resting_on_instrument_panel_tray_from_behind_164.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:55 AM PST US From: Bob Borger Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's 2008 Coax wire stripper offer Bob, I'll testify that it is slick as goose grease to strip coax! I have a couple set up for specific tasks and you'd have a fight on your hands to get one away from me. Bob Borger Europa XS Monowheel, Rotax 914 w/ Intercooler, AirMaster C/S prop. On Tuesday, December 01, 2009, at 01:27PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:43 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2 wires a little springy on my panel channel tray From: "messydeer" Here's a pic from a little to the left from behind the panel. The zip tie on the blue (shield) and white (core) wires helps support the thin shield with the thin blue heat shrink. Otherwise, it might kink when moved around. For both mag switches, I used 2-3 switches with jumpers between the switch terminals. I had to remake the left mag connections because of the braid kinking issue, so I made the jumpers a bit longer. -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275627#275627 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wires_resting_on_instrument_panel_tray_from_left_quarter_176.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:35 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2 wires a little springy on my panel channel tray From: "messydeer" In the pic from the right, you can see the result of my left mag jumper redo. The core is white and just goes to the top switch tabs. I threaded a piece of red 20awg wire through the middle of the braid and crimped the braid along with the end of this wire into a faston. Then put a small blue piece of heat shrink over them and a larger black heat shrink. So the red jumper wire also serves as inner support for the braid. The other end has a faston crimped on going to the other switch tab. I've also got more pics on a Flickr site I started a couple weeks ago: http://www.flickr.com/photos/44912760@N02/ I've also found the site by searching for 'messydeer'. Your suggestions have been helpful and I look forward to getting more of them! -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275633#275633 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wires_resting_on_instrument_panel_tray_right_quarter_187.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/wires_resting_on_instrument_panel_tray_from_left_133.jpg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:09 PM PST US From: "Clint \"Sandy\" McNabb" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Doubling up on Sensors and Probes Bob, I've got a GRT engine analyzer and an engine analyzer from Real World Solutions specifically for a Mazda rotary engine. Can engine analyzers share the same EGT probes and the same temp and pressure sensors, or am I going to have to install separate sensors and probes for each analyzer? Thanks, Sandy McNabb ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor Failure At 01:01 PM 12/1/2009, you wrote: >The contactor in question is a B&C S702-1. I talked to Bill >Bainbridge at B&C and he suggested trying the contactor again. I >will bench test it (actually already have but will do it again) and >rewire according to B&C diagram with battery switch between battery >and starter contactor. That way I can remove power to the contactor if needed. That particular design has been applied in the gazillions in automotive applications and is well proven. There are so many clones of the concept I'd be hard pressed to identify the original any more. I don't know where B&C buys their inventory now. At one time, they were offering two versions of that form factor in intermittent duty contactors. One version was qualified onto his first STC'd starter installations. The second came with the inventory I sold him and included a built in coil collapse suppression diode. Yes, it's a lowly diode. > Right now I have installed a continuous duty contactor that I had > lying on the shelf, but it doesn't fit into my space as well as the > B&C contactor. A continuous duty contactor is never a suitable substitute for controlling starter motors. >I did consider using only the starter-fitted contactor, but was >trying to follow Aeroelectric advice so inserted the additional >contactor. It would take additional wiring effort now to change. The "AeroElectric advice" has foundations in a lot of discussion threads involving starters, styles of motors, and system characteristics. If you're running a Skytec PM starter and have jumpered the built in contactor's control line to the main terminal, then it's almost a certainty that your starter suffers from what we've calls "starter run on" . . . a delayed disengagement of the pinion gear due to counter-EMF generated by a motor's armature spinning down in a permanent magnet field. Ideas discovered and recipes developed from those discussions spawned Figure Z-22. >The B&C S702-1 contactor has an internal diode so the starter switch >was connected to the S terminal with no external diode. I did not >install a starter engaged light, but plan to add one as I rewire things. >Rewiring will consist of adding #2 welding cable from the battery to >the battery switch and then to the contactor. Also I'll wire up a >starter engaged light. Please rewire per Z-22. This is important for several reasons: (1) You have a PM starter motor and the change will improve the life of your starter motor, pinion gear and ring gear. (2) You'll eliminate the potential for sticking the contactor again. (3) This also reduces the number of metallic joints and contact sets in series with the starter. All of these are good things. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! ) ( Do your part to keep this marvelous ) ( tool sharp and available to all our ) ( brothers in the OBAM aviation ) ( community. ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:25 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: How do you test a circuit breaker? I recently came into possession of a variety of used Klixon circuit breakers from 5A to 80A. Is there any way to test them other than just on passes current and off doesn't? I would like to make sure they are actually protecting the circuit before I use them in an application. Any suggestions? Rodney Hall ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How do you test a circuit breaker? At 06:49 PM 12/1/2009, you wrote: > >I recently came into possession of a variety of used Klixon circuit >breakers from 5A to 80A. Is there any way to test them other than >just on passes current and off doesn't? I would like to make sure >they are actually protecting the circuit before I use them in an application. > >Any suggestions? You can test them for gross function by simply hooking them across a battery using a length of wire, say 10 ft total of 12AWG or even 10AWG wire. If they open, they're "functional". These critters are exceedingly robust in their design. . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Klixon_1.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Klixon_2.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Klixon_3.jpg and not prone to "drifting" in terms of calibration. Even so, if any one "drifted" up 50% it would not represent a hazard. If it "drifted" down by 50% the worst thing that happens is that you get some nuisance trips and the breaker gets replaced. Chances that you're going to test these and find a bad one is very small. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:51 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auxillary Battery Installation... From: Bob, >Okay, how many electrical feeds are necessary to keep >the engine running and what devices do they service? Quick answer: 1. Life is pretty simple. I've got 2 Dynons both with independent AHRS and internal battery so I'm pretty much covered for attitude, airspeed etc. Radio and gps backup are handheld. The big nickel is keeping one of two of the Lightspeed Ignition boxes alive. Each box requires a min of 5 volts before they drop off the planet. By design it is suggested that one connect to the main bus and one to the aux bus. When things go south it is recommended to take one off line to save remaining power. With the exception of maybe an interior light, I could probably fly it in just so even in the dark which is when I fly the most. I'm installing a night vision camera which is < 3 amps and optional on a clear night. No need for a landing light in most cases. Right now I have each on an independent circuit (30 amp in line fuse holders) followed by two potter 5 amp CB panel switches. Source for both is directly off the battery side of the main battery contactor. Klaus might prefer I bolt that line directly to the battery, but I have not done that yet. Thanks, Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 2:17 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auxillary Battery Installation... At 10:38 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob, > >Yeah, nothing is easy. My goal for the backup battery is to ensure >reliability of my electrically dependent ignition should a major event >occur in the primary charging/battery system. Note, I have an SD8 for a >backup alt which feeds the essential bus. Okay, how many electrical feeds are necessary to keep the engine running and what devices do they service? >So, the design goal is that when all else fails, I'll suggest we strive to eliminate "when all else fails" from the lexicon of airplanespeak. It's a vague, broad brush admission that we're unsure as to the SYSTEM reliability of our design. The feel-good response is to stack on "safety enhancements" that tend to prop up an ill-defined or mis-understood system. "All else" says you've suffered MULTIPLE failures of items necessary for continued flight . . . or perhaps ONE failure for which no plan-b was crafted. If you have an SD-8 + main alternator and an RG battery, perhaps you already have enough stuff to keep the grim- salvager from getting a call to come clean up the aluminum mess you made. Give us a list the electro-whizzies that keep the engine going along with their current requirements and we'll go from there. Bob . . . --------------------------------------- ( It's MATRONICS FUND RAISER MONTH! ) ( Do your part to keep this marvelous ) ( tool sharp and available to all our ) ( brothers in the OBAM aviation ) ( community. ) --------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:43 PM PST US From: "William Hibbing" Subject: AeroElectric-List: glide slope anenna I've been thinking about building a glide slope antenna and was wondering if anyone had done this. If so, any ideas would be great. Pros and cons are welcome. Thanks in advance. 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