---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/05/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:24 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:58 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (Steve Thomas) 3. 09:00 AM - AW: Hobbs Meter (Alfred - Aviatik) 4. 09:06 AM - Engine oil starvation (Rino) 5. 09:07 AM - Engine oil starvation (Rino) 6. 09:29 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (Gilles Thesee) 7. 10:05 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (JOHN TIPTON) 8. 10:17 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (Rob Housman) 9. 10:20 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (Gilles Thesee) 10. 10:29 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (Gilles Thesee) 11. 11:46 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (Rob Housman) 12. 11:47 AM - Re: Hobbs Meter (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 13. 03:00 PM - Lopresti HID claims (XeVision) 14. 04:45 PM - Re: Lopresti HID claims (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 05:12 PM - Re: Lopresti HID claims (XeVision) 16. 05:12 PM - It's a mystery to me (Steve Hamer) 17. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: Z19RB Engine Battery Buss Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 07:20 PM - Re: It's a mystery to me (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 10:37 PM - Re: It's a mystery to me (Steve Hamer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter At 08:58 PM 12/4/2009, you wrote: > >Check this link out. >http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=12390 That's pretty slick. It would be interesting to put it side-by-side with another meter to see how discriminating it is with respect to vibration from an engine and other potential "noises". Does anyone on the List have one of these installed? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter From: Steve Thomas I was looking at the manufacturers site and notice that they offer 4 different mounting methods for this meter. Wag Aero and Aircraft Spruce do not tell you which mounting they have offered. See: http://tinyurl.com/yhhxn53 Steve Thomas ________________________________________________________________________ On Dec 4, 2009, at 6:58 PM, jerb wrote: > > Check this link out. > http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=12390 > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:40 AM PST US From: "Alfred - Aviatik" Subject: AW: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter Craig, Comco Ikarus (http://www.comco-ikarus.de/) sells a small device that powers the hobbs meter with AC juice from the alternator. Not cheap (65 Euros) but does what you are looking for. Regards, Alfred ------------------------------------------------ Alfred Buess, Europa XS HB-YKI ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:51 AM PST US From: "Rino" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine oil starvation Here is the photo of the end housing damage. Rino Lacombe ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:08 AM PST US From: "Rino" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Engine oil starvation Sorry about the preceding message, my mistake, wrong address. Rino Lacombe ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:50 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter Steve Thomas a crit : > > I was looking at the manufacturers site and notice that they offer 4 different mounting methods for this meter. Wag Aero and Aircraft Spruce do not tell you which mounting they have offered. Here's a link to the manufacturer data sheet : http://www.enmco.com/pdf/675.PDF Wag Aero's products seems to be the T54C1 'Rectangle Panel Mount w/ 2 Holes'. Most interesting. No wire, no connection, no nothing ;-) Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:47 AM PST US From: "JOHN TIPTON" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter I had a look at these items, and they all have a 8 year battery life, but cannot be replaced - does anyone not think this could be a problem !!! Regards: John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Thomas" Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 2:53 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter > > I was looking at the manufacturers site and notice that they offer 4 > different mounting methods for this meter. Wag Aero and Aircraft Spruce > do not tell you which mounting they have offered. See: > > http://tinyurl.com/yhhxn53 > > > Steve Thomas > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > On Dec 4, 2009, at 6:58 PM, jerb wrote: > >> >> Check this link out. >> http://store.wagaero.com/product_info.php?products_id=12390 >> > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:21 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter To quote the data sheet: "Internal Lithium Battery 8 years plus non-replaceable." That makes it a bit difficult to measure total time on the airframe, or for an average private pilot, the engine. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 9:23 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter Steve Thomas a crit : > > I was looking at the manufacturers site and notice that they offer 4 different mounting methods for this meter. Wag Aero and Aircraft Spruce do not tell you which mounting they have offered. Here's a link to the manufacturer data sheet : http://www.enmco.com/pdf/675.PDF Wag Aero's products seems to be the T54C1 'Rectangle Panel Mount w/ 2 Holes'. Most interesting. No wire, no connection, no nothing ;-) Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:51 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter JOHN TIPTON a crit : > > > I had a look at these items, and they all have a 8 year battery life, but > cannot be replaced - does anyone not think this could be a problem !!! > You have a point here, but is replacing a 35-45 $ item every eight year or so really a problem ? How many batteries, hoses, filters, brake pads mechanical parts will we have to replace before that time ? Just thinking. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:34 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter Rob Housman a crit : > > To quote the data sheet: "Internal Lithium Battery 8 years plus > non-replaceable." That makes it a bit difficult to measure total time on > the airframe, Like with any other hourmeter, just enter the total time and date of replacement in the airframe or engine logbook. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:45 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter Actually I had in mind Reagan's famous "Trust but verify." Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:23 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter Rob Housman a crit : > > To quote the data sheet: "Internal Lithium Battery 8 years plus > non-replaceable." That makes it a bit difficult to measure total time on > the airframe, Like with any other hourmeter, just enter the total time and date of replacement in the airframe or engine logbook. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:46 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs Meter > > To quote the data sheet: "Internal Lithium Battery 8 years plus > non-replaceable." That makes it a bit difficult to measure total time on > the airframe, Like with any other hourmeter, just enter the total time and date of replacement in the airframe or engine logbook. Sounds to me like it is more hassle than benefit. Many mechanics don't read all log entries for past years thus it gets forgotten. Is there an alarm on the unit to indicate low battery, or does it just quit and allow you to keep on flying without logging time?? Roger ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:37 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lopresti HID claims From: "XeVision" I order to avoid taking anything out of context I have posted the entire add from Lopresti personnel on the COPA (Cirrus) forums at the end of this post. Here is a link as well: http://www.cirruspilots.org/forums/p/116256/479507.aspx#479507 They have made this same ridiculously exaggerated claim a few times in other adds and on their website in the last couple of years, even from their employees who claim to be "technical" and not "sales oriented." "more light than a 747 and more than 1 million Lumens." Facts are, a 35 watt HID including the ballast requires about 40 watts (input) to operate. It produces about 3200 lumens = Net result 91.4 lumens per watt from the bulb (35w) but including the ballast power losses, 80 lumens per watt, power going into the ballast. Now for a 50 watt HID (output to the bulb) the ballast will pull about 56 watts. This system produces about 5300 lumens. That makes 106 lumens per watt from the bulb and 95 lumens per watt again including the ballast losses. Using these numbers plugged into the Lopresti claim of 1 million Lumens seen below. Here is the actual math: with 5300 lumens from a 50 watt HID you would need 188 HID systems to produce 1 million lumens. Using instead 35 watt HID systems as they typically do, producing 3200 lumens each, it would require 312 HID systems. Obviously impossible. They are confusing Lumens with candlepower which are totally different. measurements with much different meanings. To produce 1,000,000 lumens using HID would require 800-1000 amps in a 12/14 VDC system or 10,500 to 12,500 watts (10.5 KW or 12.5 KW) To accomplish this you would need some VERY BIG capacity alternators or a ~20 HP generator just to run the lights. I won't waste any more time to show how rediculous this claim is. I can also assure you that a 747 has MUCH more landing light lumens output than the 3 HID lights Lopresti is selling in this package offering. The arguement could be made that this (747 statement) is meant as a "tongue in cheek" statement but the 1,000,000 lumens claim cannot. I wish someone would "call them on the carpet" for these un challenged claims. If anyone here is a COPA member or knows someone who is, please do so. My point is they claim to be the experts on HID but then this kind of false information comes much (ALL) too frequently from them. When marketing their HID products. Dan Blumel - XeVision av8her Posted: 4 Dec 2009 12:32 rated by 0 users "But what if I want ALL your lights? You asked, so we're answering... LoPresti is pleased to offer a COPA-exclusive package deal for our SR22 G1/G2 TriTips, bundled with our X2 BoomBeam cowling light for $5995.00 (Retail $7443.00) This is the most comprehensive lighting offer we have ever extended to COPA members. With this package, your light output be over 1 million Lumens!! Just to give you an idea of the scale of that measurement that's more light than a Boeing 747. Aircraft lighting is not only important for safety of flight at night, but it is also imperative for daytime flight recognition. New automotive and motorcycle manufacturers clearly understand the safety benefits "Lights on" 24/7. Details: The X2 technology, developed by LoPresti Aviation, is a powerful High Intensity Discharge (HID) lighting system designed specifically for aviation that consumes less power while increasing light output 300%-500% (tunable)!! The TriTips are modified wing tips that have HID BoomBeam lights in each side. To install the light pocket in your existing tips, we will bond the lighting system behind a custom designed lens assembly. (Your decals will be stripped off and your tips repainted Cirrus white). * This offer is limited to one group of 10 COPA members by January 31, 2010. * In order to be included on the list, you must sign up on the COPA thread for this discount. List price: TriTips $6495, X2 BoomBeam $948 = $7,443 (+ S&H) COPA offer - lighting package: TriTips and X2 BoomBeam = $5995 (+ S&H) Shipping for this mod is $250-$500. This offer applies to SR22 serial numbers 0002 thru 2437. Allison Bergan allison@loprestaviation.com -------- LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276380#276380 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lopresti HID claims > >"more light than a 747 and more than 1 million Lumens." >Using these numbers plugged into the Lopresti claim of 1 million >Lumens seen below. Here is the actual math: with 5300 lumens from a >50 watt HID you would need 188 HID systems to produce 1 million lumens. I'm wondering if they're not confusing LUMENS of total light output with a luminance of 1,000,000 Beam Center Candle Power. >My point is they claim to be the experts on HID but then this kind >of false information comes much (ALL) too frequently from them. When >marketing their HID products. Yeah . . . that 747 thing seems a bit of a stretch. Raytheon did some light measurements on a Lopresti system we installed on a Bonanza about 10 years ago. I'll see if I can dig up the report. BTW, the system they were offering then was not selected for production . . . but then I don't know who was driving the program either. It may have been a simple, inquisitive look-see. But I do recall that some folks from the metrics lab took some pattern data on the fixture. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:10 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Lopresti HID claims From: "XeVision" Yes, I agree but they used to talk candle power for at least 5 years prior then recently (2-3 years ago) switched to using Lumens instead. Just added this to the first post. Here is another link advertising this "hype": http://media.sbwire.com/files/Cirrus_AD.pdf Just do a google search on "lopresti 1 million lumens" and you will find many pages of this stuff over the last 2-3 years. Anywhere from 750,000 lumens combined output from 2 lights to over 1,000,000 lumens from 3 of their HID lights of combined output. We even told AeroNews about the problem (wrote Jim a letter, which he did get) a couple of years ago when they did a "news" article (adds credibility) including those claims and debunking it from a technical viewpoint as I just did here. Jim never responded except to getting it, I guess he never passed it on to them for comment ??? Dan -------- LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276397#276397 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:57 PM PST US From: "Steve Hamer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: It's a mystery to me The flap motor on my RV-6 was occasionally not wanting to run so I took it apart and cleaned up the excess grease per Van's instructions. All went well but when I put it back in the plane it was running backwards...down was up and up was down with the flap switch. I didn't switch the wiring because I had a two wire plug that only goes one way. I changed the wires to make it work correctly. So, what did I do to the motor when I put it back together to make it run in reverse? I'm just curious. Steve Hamer RV-6 flying Apple Valley, Ca ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z19RB Engine Battery Buss Question At 12:12 PM 12/4/2009, you wrote: > >The Engine and Main buss are basically duplicates with the following: > >1. EFI 4a >2. ECU 1a >3. Pri Fuel Pump 7.5a >4. Sec Fuel Pump 7.5a (only one running except take off and landing) >5. Electric Constant Speed Prop 4.5a (9a peak) Hmmm . . . Sounds like you're splitting engine electrical source duties between on battery bus and the main bus. I presume you're combining the dual path sources with a diode-pair. The battery bus really needs to be close to the battery if you subscribe to the notion of minimizing the length and fusing of always hot-wires. If you want to extend a bus feeder to some more forward location, conventional wisdom calls for a "mini-contactor" or power relay like that suggested in Z-32 for a "heavy-duty e-bus". I think I'd leave the relay out and run the long wires to small fuses. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: It's a mystery to me At 07:05 PM 12/5/2009, you wrote: >The flap motor on my RV-6 was occasionally not wanting to run so I >took it apart and cleaned up the excess grease per Van's >instructions. All went well but when I put it back in the plane it >was running backwards...down was up and up was down with the flap >switch. I didn't switch the wiring because I had a two wire plug >that only goes one way. I changed the wires to make it work correctly. >So, what did I do to the motor when I put it back together to make >it run in reverse? I'm just curious. Did you put witness marks on the end-bell that holds the brushes? I believe this is a permanent magnet motor. Simply installing the brush holders 180 degrees out of position has the same effect as flipping the two wires. Similarly, the field ring that mounts the magnets may have been clocked 180 degrees out. How was grease getting into the motor? Normally, there are no lubricants in a motor that put the brushes/commutator at risk for contamination. Gooey stuff on the comm is VERY hard on surface life. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:13 PM PST US From: "Steve Hamer" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: It's a mystery to me Bob, The brushes are housed in a unit that only goes on one way. I must have got the magnets in 180 out. There was a batch of these units that apparently had too much grease in the gear box and it somehow migrates past the o-ring that seals between the gear box and the motor. The current flap motors don't seem to have the problem. Thanks for clearing up my mystery. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:14 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: It's a mystery to me At 07:05 PM 12/5/2009, you wrote: The flap motor on my RV-6 was occasionally not wanting to run so I took it apart and cleaned up the excess grease per Van's instructions. All went well but when I put it back in the plane it was running backwards...down was up and up was down with the flap switch. I didn't switch the wiring because I had a two wire plug that only goes one way. I changed the wires to make it work correctly. So, what did I do to the motor when I put it back together to make it run in reverse? I'm just curious. Did you put witness marks on the end-bell that holds the brushes? I believe this is a permanent magnet motor. Simply installing the brush holders 180 degrees out of position has the same effect as flipping the two wires. Similarly, the field ring that mounts the magnets may have been clocked 180 degrees out. How was grease getting into the motor? Normally, there are no lubricants in a motor that put the brushes/commutator at risk for contamination. Gooey stuff on the comm is VERY hard on surface life. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.