Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:05 AM - Re: Power Opti-Miser (nuckollsr)
2. 06:45 AM - Re: Power Opti-Miser (Eric M. Jones)
3. 06:50 AM - Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Speedy11@aol.com)
4. 07:10 AM - Vertical Power? (Don Johnston)
5. 07:54 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
7. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Ian)
8. 08:18 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Dj Merrill)
9. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 09:36 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Matt Dralle)
11. 09:50 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Allen Fulmer)
12. 09:51 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Allen Fulmer)
13. 10:37 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
14. 12:06 PM - Two completely isolated busses (Greg Reid)
15. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Bob Meyers)
16. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 12:58 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 01:09 PM - Re: Two completely isolated busses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Ken)
20. 02:48 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (Bill Bradburry)
21. 05:36 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
22. 06:36 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (Bob Leffler)
23. 06:41 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (ray)
24. 07:16 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
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Subject: | Re: Power Opti-Miser |
I found a number of lucid explanations on the 'net concerning the return on investment
for devices like the Power Opti-Miser. One particularly engaging article
has been captured and added to the reference documents library of my website:
http://tinyurl.com/y875vlp
Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277286#277286
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Subject: | Re: Power Opti-Miser |
Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you linked to
does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.
Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor"
To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was made to save
power on induction motors (which it was) which compose 50% of the energy load
of the world. Let's even assume the savings are small.
Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?
Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and a really good
jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone with real cred who
agrees with you that it is all just a scam.
How about it?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277296#277296
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Subject: | Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR |
Use a 90 degree BNC adapter if you like, but I recommended against using
them. I had a tight spot for an antenna connection and used a 90 degree
BNC. I had very poor radio transmissions. I sent the radio back to Garmin
for repairs, I changed the coax and recrimped new connectors, I checked the
antenna - nothing seemed to help. I finally decided to try removing the 90
degree and ran the coax straight into the antenna. Instantly the problem
was solved. I don't know what the problem was with the 90 BNC, but I
recommend never using them.
But, I'm just an ignorant layman. Just ask my wife.
Stan Sutterfield
I found a 90deg replacement it's a little expensive at $25 ea. Nice thing
there
is no soldering required. I also found a few sites that have it in stock.
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I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim
motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been
unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at
voltage converters such as:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php
Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a
number of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit
breakers.
http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html
One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He feels
that traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot.
Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my
24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not
mine).
Don Johnston
Velocity-XL/RG
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power? |
Good Morning Don,
Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge, but
what would happen if you used two batteries to get your twenty-four volts then
tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center connection between the two
batteries?
As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I would
lean toward more conventional wiring devices.
Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving Model "T"
Fords and cranking our telephones. <G>
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 12/12/2009 9:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time,
don@numa.aero writes:
I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim
motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been
unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at
voltage converters such as:
_http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php_
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php)
Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a
number of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit
breakers.
_http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html_
(http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html)
One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He
feels that traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot.
Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my
24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not
mine).
Don Johnston
Velocity-XL/RG
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR |
>I found a 90deg replacement it's a little expensive at $25 ea. Nice
>thing there is no soldering required. I also found a few sites that
>have it in stock.
Yeah, they've really jumped up compared to their
straight cousins. That's what prompted this article
some years ago.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/BNC_Rt_Angle/BNC_Rt_Angle.html
Bob . . .
Radio Shack has a right angle, no solder, BNC connector at $4.99 P/N
278-126.
I don't know the quality, but it might be worth looking into.
Roger
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Subject: | Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR |
Why would 90 degree connectors all be faulty because one person had one?
It's probably not a good use of time to do a survey of the membership of
this list, but I for one use a 90 degree BNC connector to my com antenna
and my GPS antenna and both are fine. I suspect, Stan, that you had a
dud and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with 90 degree, or any
other connector for that matter, that a manufacturer puts time, tooling,
testing effort into.
Ian Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: Speedy11@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR
Use a 90 degree BNC adapter if you like, but I recommended against using
them. I had a tight spot for an antenna connection and used a 90 degree
BNC. I had very poor radio transmissions. I sent the radio back to
Garmin for repairs, I changed the coax and recrimped new connectors, I
checked the antenna - nothing seemed to help. I finally decided to try
removing the 90 degree and ran the coax straight into the antenna.
Instantly the problem was solved. I don't know what the problem was
with the 90 BNC, but I recommend never using them.
But, I'm just an ignorant layman. Just ask my wife.
Stan Sutterfield
I found a 90deg replacement it's a little expensive at $25 ea.
Nice thing there
is no soldering required. I also found a few sites that have it
in stock.
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power? |
On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote:
> Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve
> my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim,
> not mine).
You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with
easier wiring <http://approachfaststack.com/>. Combined with the
Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of
the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses.
So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical
Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that
part of my project.
My half cents, FWIW,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Power Opti-Miser |
At 08:43 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you
>linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.
>
>Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the
>previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor"
>
>To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was
>made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose
>50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings are small.
75 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot . . .
Are you telling us that 50% of the energy consumed by
your household is used to run inductive motors under
widely variable loads wherein any capacitors that
come WITH the motor are not tailored for optimum
performance at the design load for the motor?
Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?
Are you further suggesting that an improvement
in a small fraction of losses sensitive to power
factor amounts to . . . let's see . . . if I'm going
to reduce my electric bill by 20% then I have to
make a 40% improvement in the 50% of my loads which
are motors. Oops . . . all the motors in my house
run perhaps 20% or less . . . that suggests . . .
WOW! . . . assuming my light meter knows that
my motors have been sprinkled with pixie dust,
I can run them for free!
The reason I posted this particular article
was due to the first paragraph. The author says
he has at least one reader that has MEASURED
a benefit. As a scientist he is obligated to
play in the game called perpetual skepticism.
Just as I have gone to the shop and made measurements
to share concerning the physics of simple-ideas
I use in my job, this author is going to the lab
to confirm/deny the assertions that savings
at the light meter CAN be realized.
>Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and
>a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone
>with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam.
>
>How about it?
Eric, you give me waaaayyy to much credit. It's not
about expecting people to agree with me. It's about
MY agreement with many folks who have taken the time
to craft demonstrations and offer explanations about
VERY OLD simple-ideas in physics.
These are my teachers. If you don't find value in
the explanation of what I've learned from others,
fine. I'll confess that my own teaching methods
may not be adequate to every honorable endeavor.
So if we're reduced to making book on the outcome
experiments repeated millions every day on the backs
of folks houses, then I'll up you one.
I'll give YOU $1000 and pay for any extra equipment
you needed to purchase in order to set up, demonstrate,
document and publish an article that shows a return
on investment for adding any POWER FACTOR correction
device to your home's wiring. Do I presume correctly
that you have one already? The power factor correcting
meter is already on the back of your house. But you
can purchase some devices with finer resolution for
$200 or less . . . add it to the tab.
By the way, you can improve on the odds for a
positive return on investment by purchasing capacitors
from your local supplier and crafting your own
magic box. Keep in mind too that present trends
plotted into the future suggest that the cost
of electrical power is gong to escalate markedly
over the next ten years. Should we consider this
in calculating return on investment for an
effect that your light meter cannot measure?
I look forward to reading your test setup, experiment
procedure and the raw data. I think Mr. Bluebird would
be equally interested in seeing it too . . . and
he's not even risking any expense for having discovered
it.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power? |
At 06:40 AM 12/12/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
>I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors
are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to
find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters
such as:
>
><http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php
>
>Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a number
of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit breakers.
>
><http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html>http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html
>
>One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He feels that
traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot.
>
>Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my 24v-12v
issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not mine).
>
>Don Johnston
>Velocity-XL/RG
Hi Don,
I can't speak to the 24v vs. 12v issue and whether the Vertical Power solution
would be the right answer or not. However, I can say that I have been extremely
pleased by the functionality and ease of installation of the Vertical Power
VP-200 system in my RV-8. The system is top notch all the way through, and the
customer support from Vertical Power and Marc Ausman had been superb.
If you are at a point in your project where you can choose to install a Vertical
Power system over traditional breakers and switches - DO IT.
I've attached a few pictures of my installation. The big red box is the Control
Unit and you can get those harnesses pre-made from VP. They just plug into
the red box and you run the wire to the given device. Its just that simple.
My Rating: 5/5
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
http://www.mattsrv8.com
Final Assembly
Message 11
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I was too far along when Vertical Power came out but I have the Approach
Fast Stack Pro and it has been a big help. Tim Hass at Approach has been a
big help whenever needed. And I got my stuff from him over two years ago.
What wiring I have done (all the switches, cbs, fuses, terminal strips,
etc.) has been tedious and probably much simplified with Vertical Power
product.
Been at the wiring for 16 months or so but closing in on being finished.
I'm kind of slow.
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Finishing wiring
N808AF reserved
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
Merrill
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power?
On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote:
> Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve
> my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim,
> not mine).
You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with
easier wiring <http://approachfaststack.com/>. Combined with the
Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of
the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses.
So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical
Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that
part of my project.
My half cents, FWIW,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
Message 12
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I was too far along when Vertical Power came out but I have the Approach
Fast Stack Pro and it has been a big help. Tim Hass at Approach has been a
big help whenever needed. And I got my stuff from him over two years ago.
What wiring I have done (all the switches, cbs, fuses, terminal strips,
etc.) has been tedious and probably much simplified with Vertical Power
product.
Been at the wiring for 16 months or so but closing in on being finished.
I'm kind of slow.
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Finishing wiring
N808AF reserved
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
Merrill
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power?
On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote:
> Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve
> my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim,
> not mine).
You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with
easier wiring <http://approachfaststack.com/>. Combined with the
Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of
the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses.
So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical
Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that
part of my project.
My half cents, FWIW,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power? |
I'd second the recommendation of the Approach Fast Stack for DIY panel
builders. I haven't flown it yet but it enabled me to build my own 3
GRT panel with all the bells and whistles and it all works. Essentially
got a completely custom and documented wiring harness with lot's of
panel design skills behind it.
Can't comment on Vertical.
Bill Watson
RV10
Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote:
>
>> Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve
>> my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim,
>> not mine).
>>
>
>
> You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with
> easier wiring <http://approachfaststack.com/>. Combined with the
> Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of
> the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses.
>
> So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical
> Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that
> part of my project.
>
> My half cents, FWIW,
>
> -Dj
>
>
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Subject: | Two completely isolated busses |
I have what may be a somewhat unique situation, flying behind a Jabiru 5100
with its dual-alternator option. Each alternator is identical, integral to
the engine, permanent-magnet type, externally regulated, producing 25A Max
and 20A continuous. With "everything on", including pitot heat and landing
lights, etc., I'll need about 35A, exceeding the supply of just one
alternator. So I'll need to have them BOTH online for normal operations.
The thing is, I don't know of any way to wire two alternators to charge a
single battery safely. I think that this is a no-no.
So what I've been thinking is to use two smaller (identical) batteries, with
one alternator connected to each, independently. I'd have two completely
independent power busses, and arrange my avionics redundancy so that I could
fly with EITHER of them active. Of course I'd have them both on normally,
powering all of my stuff. But I could still make it home with just one side
or the other.
The only time that the two busses could OPTIONALLY be connected together, by
a third battery contactor, would be if I disconnected one of the alternators
... tho' not sure how this would be accomplished for these permanent-magnet
alternators, short of adding still two MORE battery contactors (5
total?!?!). I'd do this to supply extra cranking juice on cold mornings,
for example.
Of course I'd need two ammeters, two low-voltage warnings, two ... you name
it. Two completely independent, isolated, and identical busses.
Does this make sense?
Thanks,
Greg
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Power Opti-Miser |
Eric,
Maybe you should read the same articles you link to more closely.
Here is some text from the link.
"The motor controller is used in industries and applications where
motors operate under variable loads"
I think Bob has been quite clear about PF and how this might work in
average homes. A quick inventory of the inductive loads in my home
show no major variable ones. The two biggest ones, the AC compressor
unit and the circulation fan each have - what I have assumed to be -
appropriate capacitors attached.
As I do have a shop for making my airplane, I do have inductive loads
that might qualify. However, I have been working on my airplane for
three years and would be hard pressed to think that with the short
time, on a percentage basis, that these tools have been on, I could
have saved any money.
Second, the article Bob linked to had some references that certainly
qualify as being more authoritative than you seem to want to admit.
Following up on those references to BC Hydro and Consumer Reports lead
to even more interesting discoveries.
This link for example...
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/home/2009/07/power-factor-kilowatt-hours-volt-amperes-edison-electric-institute-compact-fluorescent-lightbulbs.html
... confirms that residential customers don't currently pay for bad PF
- not that low PF still wouldn't be wasteful. It also has an
interesting discussion of PF in regards to compact fluorescent bulbs
vs incandescent bulbs.
Bob Meyers
Building Sonex 982SX Web Site Index http://meyersfamily.org/Sonex982.html
On Dec 12, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
> >
>
> Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you
> linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.
>
> Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the
> previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor"
>
> To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was
> made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose
> 50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings
> are small.
>
> Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?
>
> Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and
> a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone
> with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam.
>
> How about it?
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones@charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277296#277296
>
>
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Subject: | Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR |
At 09:19 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote:
>Why would 90 degree connectors all be faulty because one person had
>one? It's probably not a good use of time to do a survey of the
>membership of this list, but I for one use a 90 degree BNC connector
>to my com antenna and my GPS antenna and both are fine. I suspect,
>Stan, that you had a dud and that there is nothing fundamentally
>wrong with 90 degree, or any other connector for that matter, that a
>manufacturer puts time, tooling, testing effort into.
>
>Ian Brown
Agreed. There is merit to the notion of improving
reliability through the reduction in parts count . . .
but if you look at how a 90-degree connector is
fabricated, it STILL has a female socket into which
a pin crimped to the center conductor is mated before
the shield sleeve is crimped.
So the only parts reduction that can be realized by
going to an "on purpose" as opposed to "po'man's cluge"
is elimination of the second bayonet retention mechanism.
Combine this with a VERY long history of coax connectors
of ALL types. Properly installed, they are very low on
the list of common troubles in avionics systems.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power? |
At 09:19 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote:
>Good Morning Don,
>
>Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge,
>but what would happen if you used two batteries to get your
>twenty-four volts then tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center
>connection between the two batteries?
You reduce the life of both batteries to a small
fraction of their normal lives.
>
>As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I
>would lean toward more conventional wiring devices.
Depends on design goals. Enhanced power distribution products
with any sort of successful market experience pretty much
deliver on their stated performance and features. This includes
virtually all such systems with few exceptions.
>
>Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving
>Model "T" Fords and cranking our telephones. <G>
Not sure this is true. When we upgraded Model T systems, operational
capabilities, costs, and reliability all improved through year-to-year
advancements in technology. Increases in acquisition costs
increased incrementally at worst . . . but for the most part
went DOWN as volume production techniques kept up with increasing
demand.
But if a builder's design goals include exploitation of features
unique to the integrated power distribution product -AND-
he/she's willing to carry the added costs, then by all means.
However, I'll suggest that upgrading to a super-capable,
integrated power distribution system just to get a 12v source
for some trim actuators may not yield a great return on
investment . . .
>I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied
>trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but
>have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I
>started looking at voltage converters such as:
This may be a huge overkill. What are the current
requirements for your 12 trim motors? Are these
Ray-Allen linear actuators? These take VERY little
power to operate. Replacing a potentiometer with a
fixed resistor can turn something like a 1/2A
variable dimmer . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim5-14.jpg
into a fixed, 12 volt output power source. If your
trim motors are a bit bigger, then perhaps this
approach is called for . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim15-14.jpg
Given the very intermittent power requirements
for trim motors, the down-regulator doesn't need
to be big or expensive. Tell us what your power
needs are . . .
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
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Subject: | Re: Two completely isolated busses |
At 02:03 PM 12/12/2009, you wrote:
><allthegooduseridsaregone@hotmail.com>
>
>I have what may be a somewhat unique situation, flying behind a Jabiru 5100
>with its dual-alternator option. Each alternator is identical, integral to
>the engine, permanent-magnet type, externally regulated, producing 25A Max
>and 20A continuous. With "everything on", including pitot heat and landing
>lights, etc., I'll need about 35A, exceeding the supply of just one
>alternator. So I'll need to have them BOTH online for normal operations.
>
>The thing is, I don't know of any way to wire two alternators to charge a
>single battery safely. I think that this is a no-no.
It CAN be done. I have done it. But it's not easy or
inexpensiver.
>So what I've been thinking is to use two smaller (identical) batteries, with
>one alternator connected to each, independently. I'd have two completely
>independent power busses, and arrange my avionics redundancy so that I could
>fly with EITHER of them active. Of course I'd have them both on normally,
>powering all of my stuff. But I could still make it home with just one side
>or the other.
>
>The only time that the two busses could OPTIONALLY be connected together, by
>a third battery contactor, would be if I disconnected one of the alternators
>... tho' not sure how this would be accomplished for these permanent-magnet
>alternators, short of adding still two MORE battery contactors (5
>total?!?!). I'd do this to supply extra cranking juice on cold mornings,
>for example.
>
>Of course I'd need two ammeters, two low-voltage warnings, two ... you name
>it. Two completely independent, isolated, and identical busses.
See chapter 17 of the AeroElectric Connection and
particularly the discussion and notes on Figure Z-14
in the back of the book and available from the website
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/R12A/AppZ_12A4.pdf
What you propose is entirely feasible . . . in fact
recommended for the situation you've been given.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
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Subject: | Re: Power Opti-Miser |
Perhaps I'm dated but most capacitor start motors only used the
capacitor to get a phase change for starting. The capacitor did not do
anything for running PF correction IIRC. Have things changed?
Ken
>The two biggest ones, the AC compressor unit
> and the circulation fan each have - what I have assumed to be -
> appropriate capacitors attached.
>
Message 20
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Anybody interested in the Approach Fast Stack can get a deal. I have the
Pro-G Hub (for Garmin stuff) and several cables that I have for sale.
Contact me off line if interested.
Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Mauledriver Watson
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power?
--> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
I'd second the recommendation of the Approach Fast Stack for DIY panel
builders. I haven't flown it yet but it enabled me to build my own 3 GRT
panel with all the bells and whistles and it all works. Essentially got a
completely custom and documented wiring harness with lot's of panel design
skills behind it.
Can't comment on Vertical.
Bill Watson
RV10
Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote:
>
>> Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to
>> resolve my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring"
>> (their claim, not mine).
>>
>
>
> You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with
> easier wiring <http://approachfaststack.com/>. Combined with the
> Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of
> the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses.
>
> So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical
> Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to
> that part of my project.
>
> My half cents, FWIW,
>
> -Dj
>
>
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power? |
Good Evening 'Lectric Bob,
Like I said, It's an area in which I have no knowledge, but thanks to you
and this list, I am learning.
Slowly maybe, but still learning! <G>
Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical
Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all
electrical devices?
How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff?
Lots of interesting possibilities out there. But I still know how to crank
that ringer!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 12/12/2009 2:59:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
At 09:19 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote:
Good Morning Don,
Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge, but
what would happen if you used two batteries to get your twenty-four volts
then tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center connection between the two
batteries?
You reduce the life of both batteries to a small
fraction of their normal lives.
As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I would
lean toward more conventional wiring devices.
Depends on design goals. Enhanced power distribution products
with any sort of successful market experience pretty much
deliver on their stated performance and features. This includes
virtually all such systems with few exceptions.
Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving Model "T"
Fords and cranking our telephones. <G>
Not sure this is true. When we upgraded Model T systems, operational
capabilities, costs, and reliability all improved through year-to-year
advancements in technology. Increases in acquisition costs
increased incrementally at worst . . . but for the most part
went DOWN as volume production techniques kept up with increasing
demand.
But if a builder's design goals include exploitation of features
unique to the integrated power distribution product -AND-
he/she's willing to carry the added costs, then by all means.
However, I'll suggest that upgrading to a super-capable,
integrated power distribution system just to get a 12v source
for some trim actuators may not yield a great return on
investment . . .
I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim
motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been
unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at
voltage converters such as:
This may be a huge overkill. What are the current
requirements for your 12 trim motors? Are these
Ray-Allen linear actuators? These take VERY little
power to operate. Replacing a potentiometer with a
fixed resistor can turn something like a 1/2A
variable dimmer . . .
_http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim5-14.jpg_
(http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim5-14.jpg)
into a fixed, 12 volt output power source. If your
trim motors are a bit bigger, then perhaps this
approach is called for . . .
_http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim15-14.jpg_
(http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim15-14.jpg)
Given the very intermittent power requirements
for trim motors, the down-regulator doesn't need
to be big or expensive. Tell us what your power
needs are . . .
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/)
(http://www.buildersbooks.com/)
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
Message 22
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Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical
Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all
electrical devices?
The short answer is yes to both questions. The unit does have an essential
buss that can power circuits independent of the CU. Also, when the CU
fails, it is suppose to fail in whatever state they were in at failure time.
i.e. on stays on and off stays off. You can also wire manual switches for
emergency access to connect devices to the essential buss. For those that
are truly anal, you can install two CUs for redundancy.
How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff?
Depends, the VP-50 is probably lighter. I'm sure the VP-200 is heavier.
Mark reads this list, so I'm sure he'll provide his two cents worth then.
My experience with Mark and the team at Vertical Power is that they are more
than happy to discuss any potential failure scenarios and how they can be
overcome with their gear. They are very accessible and eager to assist
whenever they can.
I'm putting in a VP-200 in my RV-10.
bob
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power?
Good Evening 'Lectric Bob,
Like I said, It's an area in which I have no knowledge, but thanks to you
and this list, I am learning.
Slowly maybe, but still learning! <G>
Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical
Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all
electrical devices?
How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff?
Lots of interesting possibilities out there. But I still know how to crank
that ringer!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power? |
-------------------snip-----------------------------------
>
> You reduce the life of both batteries to a small
> fraction of their normal lives.
------------------snip-----------------------------------
I was not aware of this effect. Can someone educate me or direct me to a
resource so I can educate myself?
Thanks,
Ray
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power? |
Good Evening Ray,
Since I used the center tap method on a boat I owned many years ago, I
would be very interested as well. Never noted any problem on my sailboat
batteries.<G>
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/12/2009 8:42:20 P.M. Central Standard Time,
raymondj@frontiernet.net writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: ray <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
-------------------snip-----------------------------------
>
> You reduce the life of both batteries to a small
> fraction of their normal lives.
------------------snip-----------------------------------
I was not aware of this effect. Can someone educate me or direct me to a
resource so I can educate myself?
Thanks,
Ray
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