---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/12/09: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:05 AM - Re: Power Opti-Miser (nuckollsr) 2. 06:45 AM - Re: Power Opti-Miser (Eric M. Jones) 3. 06:50 AM - Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Speedy11@aol.com) 4. 07:10 AM - Vertical Power? (Don Johnston) 5. 07:54 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 6. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 7. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Ian) 8. 08:18 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Dj Merrill) 9. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 09:36 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Matt Dralle) 11. 09:50 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Allen Fulmer) 12. 09:51 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Allen Fulmer) 13. 10:37 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 14. 12:06 PM - Two completely isolated busses (Greg Reid) 15. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Bob Meyers) 16. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 12:58 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 01:09 PM - Re: Two completely isolated busses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Ken) 20. 02:48 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (Bill Bradburry) 21. 05:36 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 22. 06:36 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (Bob Leffler) 23. 06:41 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (ray) 24. 07:16 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (BobsV35B@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:47 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser From: "nuckollsr" I found a number of lucid explanations on the 'net concerning the return on investment for devices like the Power Opti-Miser. One particularly engaging article has been captured and added to the reference documents library of my website: http://tinyurl.com/y875vlp Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277286#277286 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:44 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser From: "Eric M. Jones" Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards. Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor" To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose 50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings are small. Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing? Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam. How about it? -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277296#277296 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:15 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR Use a 90 degree BNC adapter if you like, but I recommended against using them. I had a tight spot for an antenna connection and used a 90 degree BNC. I had very poor radio transmissions. I sent the radio back to Garmin for repairs, I changed the coax and recrimped new connectors, I checked the antenna - nothing seemed to help. I finally decided to try removing the 90 degree and ran the coax straight into the antenna. Instantly the problem was solved. I don't know what the problem was with the 90 BNC, but I recommend never using them. But, I'm just an ignorant layman. Just ask my wife. Stan Sutterfield I found a 90deg replacement it's a little expensive at $25 ea. Nice thing there is no soldering required. I also found a few sites that have it in stock. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:08 AM PST US From: "Don Johnston" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a number of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit breakers. http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He feels that traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot. Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not mine). Don Johnston Velocity-XL/RG ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:17 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? Good Morning Don, Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge, but what would happen if you used two batteries to get your twenty-four volts then tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center connection between the two batteries? As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I would lean toward more conventional wiring devices. Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving Model "T" Fords and cranking our telephones. Happy Skies Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 12/12/2009 9:11:04 A.M. Central Standard Time, don@numa.aero writes: I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as: _http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php_ (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php) Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a number of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit breakers. _http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html_ (http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html) One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He feels that traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot. Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not mine). Don Johnston Velocity-XL/RG (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:05 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR >I found a 90deg replacement it's a little expensive at $25 ea. Nice >thing there is no soldering required. I also found a few sites that >have it in stock. Yeah, they've really jumped up compared to their straight cousins. That's what prompted this article some years ago. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/BNC_Rt_Angle/BNC_Rt_Angle.html Bob . . . Radio Shack has a right angle, no solder, BNC connector at $4.99 P/N 278-126. I don't know the quality, but it might be worth looking into. Roger ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR From: Ian Why would 90 degree connectors all be faulty because one person had one? It's probably not a good use of time to do a survey of the membership of this list, but I for one use a 90 degree BNC connector to my com antenna and my GPS antenna and both are fine. I suspect, Stan, that you had a dud and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with 90 degree, or any other connector for that matter, that a manufacturer puts time, tooling, testing effort into. Ian Brown -----Original Message----- From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR Use a 90 degree BNC adapter if you like, but I recommended against using them. I had a tight spot for an antenna connection and used a 90 degree BNC. I had very poor radio transmissions. I sent the radio back to Garmin for repairs, I changed the coax and recrimped new connectors, I checked the antenna - nothing seemed to help. I finally decided to try removing the 90 degree and ran the coax straight into the antenna. Instantly the problem was solved. I don't know what the problem was with the 90 BNC, but I recommend never using them. But, I'm just an ignorant layman. Just ask my wife. Stan Sutterfield I found a 90deg replacement it's a little expensive at $25 ea. Nice thing there is no soldering required. I also found a few sites that have it in stock. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? From: Dj Merrill On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote: > Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve > my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, > not mine). You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with easier wiring . Combined with the Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses. So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that part of my project. My half cents, FWIW, -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser At 08:43 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote: > >Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you >linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards. > >Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the >previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor" > >To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was >made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose >50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings are small. 75 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot . . . Are you telling us that 50% of the energy consumed by your household is used to run inductive motors under widely variable loads wherein any capacitors that come WITH the motor are not tailored for optimum performance at the design load for the motor? Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing? Are you further suggesting that an improvement in a small fraction of losses sensitive to power factor amounts to . . . let's see . . . if I'm going to reduce my electric bill by 20% then I have to make a 40% improvement in the 50% of my loads which are motors. Oops . . . all the motors in my house run perhaps 20% or less . . . that suggests . . . WOW! . . . assuming my light meter knows that my motors have been sprinkled with pixie dust, I can run them for free! The reason I posted this particular article was due to the first paragraph. The author says he has at least one reader that has MEASURED a benefit. As a scientist he is obligated to play in the game called perpetual skepticism. Just as I have gone to the shop and made measurements to share concerning the physics of simple-ideas I use in my job, this author is going to the lab to confirm/deny the assertions that savings at the light meter CAN be realized. >Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and >a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone >with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam. > >How about it? Eric, you give me waaaayyy to much credit. It's not about expecting people to agree with me. It's about MY agreement with many folks who have taken the time to craft demonstrations and offer explanations about VERY OLD simple-ideas in physics. These are my teachers. If you don't find value in the explanation of what I've learned from others, fine. I'll confess that my own teaching methods may not be adequate to every honorable endeavor. So if we're reduced to making book on the outcome experiments repeated millions every day on the backs of folks houses, then I'll up you one. I'll give YOU $1000 and pay for any extra equipment you needed to purchase in order to set up, demonstrate, document and publish an article that shows a return on investment for adding any POWER FACTOR correction device to your home's wiring. Do I presume correctly that you have one already? The power factor correcting meter is already on the back of your house. But you can purchase some devices with finer resolution for $200 or less . . . add it to the tab. By the way, you can improve on the odds for a positive return on investment by purchasing capacitors from your local supplier and crafting your own magic box. Keep in mind too that present trends plotted into the future suggest that the cost of electrical power is gong to escalate markedly over the next ten years. Should we consider this in calculating return on investment for an effect that your light meter cannot measure? I look forward to reading your test setup, experiment procedure and the raw data. I think Mr. Bluebird would be equally interested in seeing it too . . . and he's not even risking any expense for having discovered it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:01 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? At 06:40 AM 12/12/2009 Saturday, you wrote: >I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as: > >http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lonestar24to12.php > >Then I saw Vertical Power at Sun-n-Fun. Not only do their systems have a number of 12v pick-offs but they completely eliminate traditional circuit breakers. > >http://www.verticalpower.com/VP100.html > >One of my electrical "advisors" is wary of such new-fangled gizmos. He feels that traditional CB's and fuses are easier to troubleshoot. > >Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, not mine). > >Don Johnston >Velocity-XL/RG Hi Don, I can't speak to the 24v vs. 12v issue and whether the Vertical Power solution would be the right answer or not. However, I can say that I have been extremely pleased by the functionality and ease of installation of the Vertical Power VP-200 system in my RV-8. The system is top notch all the way through, and the customer support from Vertical Power and Marc Ausman had been superb. If you are at a point in your project where you can choose to install a Vertical Power system over traditional breakers and switches - DO IT. I've attached a few pictures of my installation. The big red box is the Control Unit and you can get those harnesses pre-made from VP. They just plug into the red box and you run the wire to the given device. Its just that simple. My Rating: 5/5 Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com Final Assembly ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:27 AM PST US From: "Allen Fulmer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? I was too far along when Vertical Power came out but I have the Approach Fast Stack Pro and it has been a big help. Tim Hass at Approach has been a big help whenever needed. And I got my stuff from him over two years ago. What wiring I have done (all the switches, cbs, fuses, terminal strips, etc.) has been tedious and probably much simplified with Vertical Power product. Been at the wiring for 16 months or so but closing in on being finished. I'm kind of slow. Allen Fulmer RV7 Finishing wiring N808AF reserved -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:12 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote: > Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve > my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, > not mine). You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with easier wiring . Combined with the Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses. So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that part of my project. My half cents, FWIW, -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:04 AM PST US From: "Allen Fulmer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? I was too far along when Vertical Power came out but I have the Approach Fast Stack Pro and it has been a big help. Tim Hass at Approach has been a big help whenever needed. And I got my stuff from him over two years ago. What wiring I have done (all the switches, cbs, fuses, terminal strips, etc.) has been tedious and probably much simplified with Vertical Power product. Been at the wiring for 16 months or so but closing in on being finished. I'm kind of slow. Allen Fulmer RV7 Finishing wiring N808AF reserved -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:12 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote: > Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve > my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, > not mine). You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with easier wiring . Combined with the Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses. So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that part of my project. My half cents, FWIW, -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:34 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? I'd second the recommendation of the Approach Fast Stack for DIY panel builders. I haven't flown it yet but it enabled me to build my own 3 GRT panel with all the bells and whistles and it all works. Essentially got a completely custom and documented wiring harness with lot's of panel design skills behind it. Can't comment on Vertical. Bill Watson RV10 Dj Merrill wrote: > > On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote: > >> Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to resolve >> my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" (their claim, >> not mine). >> > > > You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with > easier wiring . Combined with the > Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of > the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses. > > So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical > Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to that > part of my project. > > My half cents, FWIW, > > -Dj > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:09 PM PST US From: "Greg Reid" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Two completely isolated busses I have what may be a somewhat unique situation, flying behind a Jabiru 5100 with its dual-alternator option. Each alternator is identical, integral to the engine, permanent-magnet type, externally regulated, producing 25A Max and 20A continuous. With "everything on", including pitot heat and landing lights, etc., I'll need about 35A, exceeding the supply of just one alternator. So I'll need to have them BOTH online for normal operations. The thing is, I don't know of any way to wire two alternators to charge a single battery safely. I think that this is a no-no. So what I've been thinking is to use two smaller (identical) batteries, with one alternator connected to each, independently. I'd have two completely independent power busses, and arrange my avionics redundancy so that I could fly with EITHER of them active. Of course I'd have them both on normally, powering all of my stuff. But I could still make it home with just one side or the other. The only time that the two busses could OPTIONALLY be connected together, by a third battery contactor, would be if I disconnected one of the alternators ... tho' not sure how this would be accomplished for these permanent-magnet alternators, short of adding still two MORE battery contactors (5 total?!?!). I'd do this to supply extra cranking juice on cold mornings, for example. Of course I'd need two ammeters, two low-voltage warnings, two ... you name it. Two completely independent, isolated, and identical busses. Does this make sense? Thanks, Greg ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:09 PM PST US From: Bob Meyers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser Eric, Maybe you should read the same articles you link to more closely. Here is some text from the link. "The motor controller is used in industries and applications where motors operate under variable loads" I think Bob has been quite clear about PF and how this might work in average homes. A quick inventory of the inductive loads in my home show no major variable ones. The two biggest ones, the AC compressor unit and the circulation fan each have - what I have assumed to be - appropriate capacitors attached. As I do have a shop for making my airplane, I do have inductive loads that might qualify. However, I have been working on my airplane for three years and would be hard pressed to think that with the short time, on a percentage basis, that these tools have been on, I could have saved any money. Second, the article Bob linked to had some references that certainly qualify as being more authoritative than you seem to want to admit. Following up on those references to BC Hydro and Consumer Reports lead to even more interesting discoveries. This link for example... http://blogs.consumerreports.org/home/2009/07/power-factor-kilowatt-hours-volt-amperes-edison-electric-institute-compact-fluorescent-lightbulbs.html ... confirms that residential customers don't currently pay for bad PF - not that low PF still wouldn't be wasteful. It also has an interesting discussion of PF in regards to compact fluorescent bulbs vs incandescent bulbs. Bob Meyers Building Sonex 982SX Web Site Index http://meyersfamily.org/Sonex982.html On Dec 12, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > > > > Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net. The piece you > linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards. > > Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html and the > previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor" > > To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was > made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose > 50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings > are small. > > Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing? > > Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and > a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone > with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam. > > How about it? > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277296#277296 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR At 09:19 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote: >Why would 90 degree connectors all be faulty because one person had >one? It's probably not a good use of time to do a survey of the >membership of this list, but I for one use a 90 degree BNC connector >to my com antenna and my GPS antenna and both are fine. I suspect, >Stan, that you had a dud and that there is nothing fundamentally >wrong with 90 degree, or any other connector for that matter, that a >manufacturer puts time, tooling, testing effort into. > >Ian Brown Agreed. There is merit to the notion of improving reliability through the reduction in parts count . . . but if you look at how a 90-degree connector is fabricated, it STILL has a female socket into which a pin crimped to the center conductor is mated before the shield sleeve is crimped. So the only parts reduction that can be realized by going to an "on purpose" as opposed to "po'man's cluge" is elimination of the second bayonet retention mechanism. Combine this with a VERY long history of coax connectors of ALL types. Properly installed, they are very low on the list of common troubles in avionics systems. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? At 09:19 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote: >Good Morning Don, > >Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge, >but what would happen if you used two batteries to get your >twenty-four volts then tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center >connection between the two batteries? You reduce the life of both batteries to a small fraction of their normal lives. > >As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I >would lean toward more conventional wiring devices. Depends on design goals. Enhanced power distribution products with any sort of successful market experience pretty much deliver on their stated performance and features. This includes virtually all such systems with few exceptions. > >Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving >Model "T" Fords and cranking our telephones. Not sure this is true. When we upgraded Model T systems, operational capabilities, costs, and reliability all improved through year-to-year advancements in technology. Increases in acquisition costs increased incrementally at worst . . . but for the most part went DOWN as volume production techniques kept up with increasing demand. But if a builder's design goals include exploitation of features unique to the integrated power distribution product -AND- he/she's willing to carry the added costs, then by all means. However, I'll suggest that upgrading to a super-capable, integrated power distribution system just to get a 12v source for some trim actuators may not yield a great return on investment . . . >I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied >trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but >have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I >started looking at voltage converters such as: This may be a huge overkill. What are the current requirements for your 12 trim motors? Are these Ray-Allen linear actuators? These take VERY little power to operate. Replacing a potentiometer with a fixed resistor can turn something like a 1/2A variable dimmer . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim5-14.jpg into a fixed, 12 volt output power source. If your trim motors are a bit bigger, then perhaps this approach is called for . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim15-14.jpg Given the very intermittent power requirements for trim motors, the down-regulator doesn't need to be big or expensive. Tell us what your power needs are . . . Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two completely isolated busses At 02:03 PM 12/12/2009, you wrote: > > >I have what may be a somewhat unique situation, flying behind a Jabiru 5100 >with its dual-alternator option. Each alternator is identical, integral to >the engine, permanent-magnet type, externally regulated, producing 25A Max >and 20A continuous. With "everything on", including pitot heat and landing >lights, etc., I'll need about 35A, exceeding the supply of just one >alternator. So I'll need to have them BOTH online for normal operations. > >The thing is, I don't know of any way to wire two alternators to charge a >single battery safely. I think that this is a no-no. It CAN be done. I have done it. But it's not easy or inexpensiver. >So what I've been thinking is to use two smaller (identical) batteries, with >one alternator connected to each, independently. I'd have two completely >independent power busses, and arrange my avionics redundancy so that I could >fly with EITHER of them active. Of course I'd have them both on normally, >powering all of my stuff. But I could still make it home with just one side >or the other. > >The only time that the two busses could OPTIONALLY be connected together, by >a third battery contactor, would be if I disconnected one of the alternators >... tho' not sure how this would be accomplished for these permanent-magnet >alternators, short of adding still two MORE battery contactors (5 >total?!?!). I'd do this to supply extra cranking juice on cold mornings, >for example. > >Of course I'd need two ammeters, two low-voltage warnings, two ... you name >it. Two completely independent, isolated, and identical busses. See chapter 17 of the AeroElectric Connection and particularly the discussion and notes on Figure Z-14 in the back of the book and available from the website at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ and http://www.aeroelectric.com/R12A/AppZ_12A4.pdf What you propose is entirely feasible . . . in fact recommended for the situation you've been given. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:01 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser Perhaps I'm dated but most capacitor start motors only used the capacitor to get a phase change for starting. The capacitor did not do anything for running PF correction IIRC. Have things changed? Ken >The two biggest ones, the AC compressor unit > and the circulation fan each have - what I have assumed to be - > appropriate capacitors attached. > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:26 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? Anybody interested in the Approach Fast Stack can get a deal. I have the Pro-G Hub (for Garmin stuff) and several cables that I have for sale. Contact me off line if interested. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mauledriver Watson Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? --> I'd second the recommendation of the Approach Fast Stack for DIY panel builders. I haven't flown it yet but it enabled me to build my own 3 GRT panel with all the bells and whistles and it all works. Essentially got a completely custom and documented wiring harness with lot's of panel design skills behind it. Can't comment on Vertical. Bill Watson RV10 Dj Merrill wrote: > > On 12/12/2009 9:40 AM, Don Johnston wrote: > >> Just wondering what if there are any opinions on using this to >> resolve my 24v-12v issue with the added feature on "easier wiring" >> (their claim, not mine). >> > > > You may also look at the Approach Fast Stack product to assist with > easier wiring . Combined with the > Vertical Power system, the panel wiring should only take a fraction of > the time it would take using traditional CBs/fuses. > > So far I have not heard anything negative from people using Vertical > Power, just good comments. It is what I hope to use when I get to > that part of my project. > > My half cents, FWIW, > > -Dj > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:20 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? Good Evening 'Lectric Bob, Like I said, It's an area in which I have no knowledge, but thanks to you and this list, I am learning. Slowly maybe, but still learning! Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all electrical devices? How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff? Lots of interesting possibilities out there. But I still know how to crank that ringer! Happy Skies, Old Bob Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 12/12/2009 2:59:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes: At 09:19 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote: Good Morning Don, Here I go again commenting in an area of which I have no knowledge, but what would happen if you used two batteries to get your twenty-four volts then tapped a twelve volt buss off at the center connection between the two batteries? You reduce the life of both batteries to a small fraction of their normal lives. As to the Vertical Power concept, once again, no knowledge, but I would lean toward more conventional wiring devices. Depends on design goals. Enhanced power distribution products with any sort of successful market experience pretty much deliver on their stated performance and features. This includes virtually all such systems with few exceptions. Of course, if everyone felt like I do we would still be driving Model "T" Fords and cranking our telephones. Not sure this is true. When we upgraded Model T systems, operational capabilities, costs, and reliability all improved through year-to-year advancements in technology. Increases in acquisition costs increased incrementally at worst . . . but for the most part went DOWN as volume production techniques kept up with increasing demand. But if a builder's design goals include exploitation of features unique to the integrated power distribution product -AND- he/she's willing to carry the added costs, then by all means. However, I'll suggest that upgrading to a super-capable, integrated power distribution system just to get a 12v source for some trim actuators may not yield a great return on investment . . . I'm going to be running a 24v system on a Velocity. All the supplied trim motors are designed for a 12v electrical system. I looked but have been unable to find equivalent motors for my 24v system. So I started looking at voltage converters such as: This may be a huge overkill. What are the current requirements for your 12 trim motors? Are these Ray-Allen linear actuators? These take VERY little power to operate. Replacing a potentiometer with a fixed resistor can turn something like a 1/2A variable dimmer . . . _http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim5-14.jpg_ (http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim5-14.jpg) into a fixed, 12 volt output power source. If your trim motors are a bit bigger, then perhaps this approach is called for . . . _http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim15-14.jpg_ (http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/dim15-14.jpg) Given the very intermittent power requirements for trim motors, the down-regulator doesn't need to be big or expensive. Tell us what your power needs are . . . Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:02 PM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all electrical devices? The short answer is yes to both questions. The unit does have an essential buss that can power circuits independent of the CU. Also, when the CU fails, it is suppose to fail in whatever state they were in at failure time. i.e. on stays on and off stays off. You can also wire manual switches for emergency access to connect devices to the essential buss. For those that are truly anal, you can install two CUs for redundancy. How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff? Depends, the VP-50 is probably lighter. I'm sure the VP-200 is heavier. Mark reads this list, so I'm sure he'll provide his two cents worth then. My experience with Mark and the team at Vertical Power is that they are more than happy to discuss any potential failure scenarios and how they can be overcome with their gear. They are very accessible and eager to assist whenever they can. I'm putting in a VP-200 in my RV-10. bob From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? Good Evening 'Lectric Bob, Like I said, It's an area in which I have no knowledge, but thanks to you and this list, I am learning. Slowly maybe, but still learning! Anybody have any ideas as to what the failure mode would be on the Vertical Power unit? Is there a likely single failure mode that could take out all electrical devices? How does the total weight compare to legacy stuff? Lots of interesting possibilities out there. But I still know how to crank that ringer! Happy Skies, Old Bob Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:18 PM PST US From: ray Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? -------------------snip----------------------------------- > > You reduce the life of both batteries to a small > fraction of their normal lives. ------------------snip----------------------------------- I was not aware of this effect. Can someone educate me or direct me to a resource so I can educate myself? Thanks, Ray ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:18 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? Good Evening Ray, Since I used the center tap method on a boat I owned many years ago, I would be very interested as well. Never noted any problem on my sailboat batteries. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/12/2009 8:42:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, raymondj@frontiernet.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: ray -------------------snip----------------------------------- > > You reduce the life of both batteries to a small > fraction of their normal lives. ------------------snip----------------------------------- I was not aware of this effect. Can someone educate me or direct me to a resource so I can educate myself? 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