---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/13/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:38 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (n395v) 2. 08:16 AM - Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Noplugs) 3. 09:15 AM - Re: Power Opti-Miser (user9253) 4. 09:20 AM - Re: Two completely isolated busses (Greg Reid) 5. 10:16 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (donjohnston) 6. 10:16 AM - Re: Vertical Power? (D Fritz) 7. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: Two completely isolated busses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 10:48 AM - Re: Center-tapped batteries . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: Vertical Power? (Matt Dralle) 13. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Vertical Power? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 03:23 PM - Re: Vertical Power? (donjohnston) 15. 03:49 PM - Re: Re: Vertical Power? (Gilles Thesee) 16. 03:54 PM - Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Speedy11@aol.com) 17. 09:26 PM - Re: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:08 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Vertical Power? From: "n395v" > Since I used the center tap method on a boat I owned many years ago, I would be very interested as well. Never noted any problem on my sailboat batteries. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > It largely has to do with your charging device. When you tap off the center of (2) 14V batteries in series one will discharge more than the other.. Your alternator will put 28 V across both batteries overcharging one and undercharging the other which will shorten the life of both batteries. A battery equalizer ........................ http://www.vanner.com/client/images/manual_Battery_Equalizer.pdf will solve the problem. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277398#277398 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR From: "Noplugs" The 90Deg replacement I mentioned previously is not a the common of the shelf BNC 90deg adapter. It is a replacement for the TED 9-30-10. I have them in my Terra radio trays. I see that ICOM has a straight version also, I understand they are used with several manufacture's equipment like King. So IF you have the "TED 9-30-10", the DBA-600 looks to be a nice clean application replacement for the "TED 9-30-10" Look at my attachment it shows both connectors and you can see it is not the common BNC 90deg adapter. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277407#277407 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dba_600percent20brochure_187.pdf ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:52 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser From: "user9253" > Perhaps I'm dated but most capacitor start motors only used the > capacitor to get a phase change for starting. The capacitor did not do > anything for running PF correction IIRC. Have things changed? > Ken There are capacitor start - capacitor run motors. See: http://tristate.apogee.net/mnd/mfmscsc.asp > "The motor controller is used in industries and applications where motors operate under variable loads" I agree with Bob Meyers. Those motor controllers are designed for industrial applications where the motor load varies. The controllers achieve energy savings by reducing voltage to the motor when it is not heavily loaded. Most of the motors in residences operate a fixed load and will not benefit from operating at a reduced voltage. In fact, operating a motor at a lower then designed voltage will cause a motor (under load) to use more current. Home appliances such as refrigerators have stickers on them in the store showing the annual operating cost. Manufactures compete to make their appliances efficient. It is hard to economically make the appliances more efficient. Adding capacitors makes sense in an industrial setting. I worked in a factory where motors used the majority of electricity. The power company charged a penalty for low power factor. To avoid the penalty, capacitor banks as big as desks were connected to the primary transformers. And some motors had capacitors installed at the motor starter. In rural areas, long runs of parallel utility lines create a capacitance which reduces the power factor, but in the opposite direction as inductive loads. The utility company counteracts this excessive capacitance by installing inductors on the electric poles. Perhaps you have noticed what appears to be transformers on poles and wondered why they were there with no houses around. Theoretically a Power Opti-Miser will save energy. And theoretically a fly landing on an aircraft carrier will cause the ship to displace more water. But is it significant? It would seem that a manufacture of energy saving devices would conduct tests and post the results to promote their product. The lack of test results casts doubt on the manufacture's claims. To those who strongly believe that the Power Opti-Miser will help to achieve an energy savings, I suggest they purchase and install the unit and report back to us on the monthly savings and the payback period. Meanwhile, I am going to save energy by shutting off the big wide-screen TV and go work on my airplane in the garage. :-) Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277412#277412 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:11 AM PST US From: "Greg Reid" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Two completely isolated busses Thanks for the quick response, Bob. OK, so it looks like I'll go with the split bus. But I have a follow-on question/concern regarding the Z14 diagram's introduction: "In normal operations, the crossfeed contactor is left open and the two systems operate independently of each other. Should one alternator fail, the crossfeed contactor may be used for the failed system to borrow power from the working system." Yes, that's how I see it working, as described initially. But wouldn't it be REALLY BAD to crossfeed when both alternators are still WORKING? Well, I don't see in Z14N anywhere that closing the crossfeed will automatically disable either alternator. Shouldn't there at least be a manual means (e.g. split master/alt switch) to turn off the field of alternator A or B before closing the crossfeed? As currently shown in Z14N, turning off the master switch on one side would turn off the alternator field (good) but also turn off the battery contactor that is in series with the cross-feed (bad). In MY case, with permanent-magnet alternators to turn off, I have no field wire of course so I'll use a relay in series with each alternator-to-regulator, as shown in Rotax Z16M. (I notice that you still haven't updated the Jabiru Z14 diagram to move that relay to the somewhat better alternator-to-regulator position rather than the regulator-to-battery position.) I don't much like the fact that I'll have to remember to turn off a "failed" alternator before closing the crossfeed. What bad things would happen (and how quickly) if I forgot to do so, so that both of my permanent-magnet alternators were connected to the crossfed busses? Thanks again, Greg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:29 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Vertical Power? From: "donjohnston" [quote="Matt Dralle"]At 06:40 AM 12/12/2009 Saturday, you wrote: > > > Hi Don, > > I can't speak to the 24v vs. 12v issue and whether the Vertical Power solution would be the right answer or not. However, I can say that I have been extremely pleased by the functionality and ease of installation of the Vertical Power VP-200 system in my RV-8. The system is top notch all the way through, and the customer support from Vertical Power and Marc Ausman had been superb. > > If you are at a point in your project where you can choose to install a Vertical Power system over traditional breakers and switches - DO IT. > > I've attached a few pictures of my installation. The big red box is the Control Unit and you can get those harnesses pre-made from VP. They just plug into the red box and you run the wire to the given device. Its just that simple. > > My Rating: 5/5 > > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com > Final Assembly Matt, Thanks (to everyone) for responding. I'm already planning on the the Approach Stack solution. And since I'm going with a two screen GRT panel, the VP-200 seemed like overkill so I was alternating between the VP-50 and VP-100. Don Johnston www.velocity-xl.com Barrington, IL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277416#277416 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:54 AM PST US From: D Fritz Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power? I'm planning a center-tap system to supply intermittent 12V loads such as a trim motor and hydraulic pump for raising my gear on my Velocity.- Due t o the high load imposed by the hydraulic pump,-using a voltage converter -was prohibitively expensive (I looked at swapping out the hydraulic pump for a 24V model, but the control electronics are all set up for 12V as wel l). -My understanding is that by using a reasonably inexpensive battery e qualizer, the negative effects of center-tapping can be mitigated.- Becau se the hydraulic pump only operates twice per flight, I can get away with a reasonably low amperage equalizer (I think I got 2 or 5 amp capacity).- Any thoughts on these equalizers out there?- - Dan=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser At 03:25 PM 12/12/2009, you wrote: > >Perhaps I'm dated but most capacitor start motors only used the >capacitor to get a phase change for starting. The capacitor did not >do anything for running PF correction IIRC. Have things changed? No . . . digging around in the gray matter seems to dredge up some things I used to teach about induction motors at Great Lakes. The capacitor(s) on a motor are for starting (the BIG guy) paired with the occasional second, smaller device for running. My central air conditioners and shop air compressor are fitted with a pair of Start/Run capacitors. And you're right, those capacitors are selected for optimized rotation of a magnetic field in the stator when only single-phase power is available. They're in series with one or more windings and NOT for PF correction. P.F. correction needs to be in parallel with the main winding. So, depending on how high the resistive losses in the main winding, there could be some significant degradation of power factor. But the motor guys are as sensitive to temperature rise due to I(squared)*R as are the guys who transformers and other wiring. They'll do what economically practical to minimize said losses. I think one of the articles that were cited over the past few days suggested that average power factor for a home was .90 . . . so it would be difficult to realize much savings in I(squared)*R R losses when the majority of said losses are spread over ALL the building's distribution system. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser > Manufactures compete to make their appliances efficient. > It is hard to economically make the appliances more efficient. Exactly. If it were possible for any current manufacturer to make their product more "green" there's certainly plenty of political and economic pressure to do it. > In rural areas, long runs of parallel utility lines create a > capacitance which reduces the power factor, but in the opposite > direction as inductive loads. The utility company counteracts this > excessive capacitance by installing inductors on the electric > poles. Perhaps you have noticed what appears to be transformers on > poles and wondered why they were there with no houses around. I think you've got it reversed. Transmission lines offer small inductive reactances that become significant when the lines are very long. Hence the occasional addition of an array of power factor correcting capacitors on some isolated pole. One capacitor for across each of three phases. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Two completely isolated busses At 11:16 AM 12/13/2009, you wrote: >Thanks for the quick response, Bob. OK, so it looks like I'll go >with the split bus. But I have a follow-on question/concern >regarding the Z14 diagram's introduction: > >"In normal operations, the crossfeed contactor is left open and the >two systems operate independently of each other. Should one >alternator fail, the crossfeed contactor may be used for the failed system to >borrow power from the working system." > >Yes, that's how I see it working, as described initially. But >wouldn't it be REALLY BAD to crossfeed when both alternators are >still WORKING? No . . . the alternator with the higher set-point will hog the load. When it's capability limits are reached, the bus voltage sags and the relaxed alternator wakes up to carry the difference. Now, this assumes that the dynamics of the two regulators are not antagonistic to paralleled operation . . . I've seen regulators designed for slow response but tight voltage control go into a see-saw oscillation when paralleled. All of my regulator designs have gone for stability under all conditions as opposed to very tight voltage regulation. Further, regulators for PM alternators are also fast response, loose regulation so you're not going to see this phenomenon pop up. > >Well, I don't see in Z14N anywhere that closing the crossfeed will >automatically disable either alternator. Shouldn't there at least >be a manual means (e.g. split master/alt switch) to turn off the >field of alternator A or B before closing the crossfeed? As >currently shown in Z14N, turning off the master switch on one side >would turn off the alternator field (good) but also turn off the >battery contactor that is in series with the cross-feed (bad). Nope. No risks Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:19 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Center-tapped batteries . . . At 12:06 PM 12/13/2009, you wrote: >I'm planning a center-tap system to supply intermittent 12V loads >such as a trim motor and hydraulic pump for raising my gear on my >Velocity. Due to the high load imposed by the hydraulic pump, using >a voltage converter was prohibitively expensive (I looked at >swapping out the hydraulic pump for a 24V model, but the control >electronics are all set up for 12V as well). Rethink this decision. What's in the control electronics? If it's nothing more than relays and contactors, those are easy to change too. > My understanding is that by using a reasonably inexpensive > battery equalizer, the negative effects of center-tapping can be > mitigated. Because the hydraulic pump only operates twice per > flight, I can get away with a reasonably low amperage equalizer (I > think I got 2 or 5 amp capacity). Any thoughts on these equalizers out there? If your equalizer is a 5A device, then it cannot "equalize" effects on a series pair of batteries wherein the bottom battery is sourcing 40+ amps of pump loads simultaneously with the top battery getting a 40+ amp overcharge event. Running your 100 mA trim actuators from a tapped battery is no big deal. But much more than that directly affects battery service life. If you must center tap two batteries as proposed, I swap upper an lower batteries every dozen flights or so. I'd also cap and load-check the batteries more aggressively. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR At 10:14 AM 12/13/2009, you wrote: > >The 90Deg replacement I mentioned previously is not a the common of >the shelf BNC 90deg adapter. It is a replacement for the TED >9-30-10. I have them in my Terra radio trays. I see that ICOM has a >straight version also, I understand they are used with several >manufacture's equipment like King. So IF you have the "TED 9-30-10", >the DBA-600 looks to be a nice clean application replacement for the >"TED 9-30-10" Look at my attachment it shows both connectors and you >can see it is not the common BNC 90deg adapter. We got lost. The thread topic was asking about "90 degree, BNC" connectors. The conversation stroked off down that BNC river. The self-aligning, blind engagement connectors like the TED 9-20-10 are not members of BNC family of coaxial connectors. I don't think the tray connectors have been named as a family . . . Further, since the right angle, TED 9-20-10 attaches right to the end of a piece of coax, it's not generally referred to as an "adapter". It appears that the straight-line product offered by ICOM is indeed an adapter offering between-series mating of a BNC male connector-on-coax with the blind-mating connector at the back of the radio. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:33 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Vertical Power? At 10:13 AM 12/13/2009 Sunday, you wrote: > >[quote="Matt Dralle"]At 06:40 AM 12/12/2009 Saturday, you wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Don, >> >> I can't speak to the 24v vs. 12v issue and whether the Vertical Power solution would be the right answer or not. However, I can say that I have been extremely pleased by the functionality and ease of installation of the Vertical Power VP-200 system in my RV-8. The system is top notch all the way through, and the customer support from Vertical Power and Marc Ausman had been superb. >> >> If you are at a point in your project where you can choose to install a Vertical Power system over traditional breakers and switches - DO IT. >> >> I've attached a few pictures of my installation. The big red box is the Control Unit and you can get those harnesses pre-made from VP. They just plug into the red box and you run the wire to the given device. Its just that simple. >> >> My Rating: 5/5 >> >> >> Matt Dralle >> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >> http://www.mattsrv8.com >> Final Assembly > > >Matt, > >Thanks (to everyone) for responding. > >I'm already planning on the the Approach Stack solution. > >And since I'm going with a two screen GRT panel, the VP-200 seemed like overkill so I was alternating between the VP-50 and VP-100. > >Don Johnston >www.velocity-xl.com >Barrington, IL Rethink the over-kill, Don! I've got three GRT HX screens and the VP-200... See attached. Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com Final Assembly ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:13 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Vertical Power? >It largely has to do with your charging device. > >When you tap off the center of (2) 14V batteries in series one will >discharge more than the other.. Your alternator will put 28 V across >both batteries overcharging one and undercharging the other which >will shorten the life of both batteries. > >A battery equalizer ........................ > >http://www.vanner.com/client/images/manual_Battery_Equalizer.pdf > >will solve the problem. I'd not encountered this style of "equalizer" before . . . A study of it's ratings suggests that the device contains a switchmode power supply designed for charging 12v batteries from a 28v source. Obviously, if you want to totally isolate your top battery from the effects of overcharge . . . and the bottom from the effects of unbalanced discharge with respect to the top, then the power supply needs to be rated for as much or more current than you expect to demand from the 12v tap on the battery. This makes the "equalizer" into a 28/14v "down converter". If you take a small device capable of delivering say 10A, then you can expect the two batteries to experience pretty equal treatment up to and including 10A loads on the battery tap. If you hit the tap with a hydraulic pump load or other load exceeding the rating of the equalizer, then the equalizer will deliver rated current with the lower battery making up the difference. Under these conditions, the lower battery voltage sags, the upper battery gets some quantity of "super-charge" and the lower battery makes up the difference between equalizer rating and system loads. When the load goes away, the equalizer will "recharge" the lower battery but it cannot do anything about the super-charge on the upper battery. The IDEAL equalizer installation calls for carrying ALL expected 14v system loads to prevent super-charging the upper battery. A similar capability can be crafted by installing two alternators. A 28v alternator attached to the top of the battery string, a 14v alternator attached to the tap half way down on the string. In terms of economics and quest for an elegant solution, this is NOT a simple choice to figure out. The number of variables is huge and a large component of the decision hinges on the builder's acceptance of complexity, weight increase, less- predictable battery life and increased cost of ownership for making sure that what USED to be the most reliable source of power on the airplane is still the most reliable. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:56 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Vertical Power? From: "donjohnston" > Rethink the over-kill, Don! I've got three GRT HX screens and the VP-200... See attached. > > Matt Dralle Matt, All I can say is... just damn! 8) But I'm thinking about it from the perspective of I'll be using one of the GRT screens for engine monitoring. So the real estate of the VP-200 and many of the features (access-code, remote control, etc.) just didn't appeal to me. Nice panel though. -Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277450#277450 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:03 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Vertical Power? Matt Dralle a crit : > > Rethink the over-kill, Don! I've got three GRT HX screens and the VP-200... See attached. > > Matt, Awesome indeed. I took the liberty of forwarding your picture to a group of pilots buddies and got lots of questions in return. Would you mind giving more details about your setup ? Thanks, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:28 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR Ian, You are correct. For my aircraft, I will never again use a 90 degree BNC connector. I will find another way to make the desired connection(s). Stan Sutterfield Do not archive Why would 90 degree connectors all be faulty because one person had one? It's probably not a good use of time to do a survey of the membership of this list, but I for one use a 90 degree BNC connector to my com antenna and my GPS antenna and both are fine. I suspect, Stan, that you had a dud and that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with 90 degree, or any other connector for that matter, that a manufacturer puts time, tooling, testing effort into. Ian Brown -----Original Message----- From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR Use a 90 degree BNC adapter if you like, but I recommended against using them. I had a tight spot for an antenna connection and used a 90 degree BNC. I had very poor radio transmissions. I sent the radio back to Garmin for repairs, I changed the coax and recrimped new connectors, I checked the antenna - nothing seemed to help. I finally decided to try removing the 90 degree and ran the coax straight into the antenna. Instantly the problem was solved. I don't know what the problem was with the 90 BNC, but I recommend never using them. But, I'm just an ignorant layman. Just ask my wife. Stan Sutterfield ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LOOKING FOR RIGHT ANGLE BNC CONNECTOR At 05:53 PM 12/13/2009, you wrote: >Ian, >You are correct. >For my aircraft, I will never again use a 90 degree BNC >connector. I will find another way to make the desired connection(s). >Stan Sutterfield Adapters for coax connections come in hundreds of varieties. Most adapters are used to make reliable connections between different series. For example, the majority of my RF test equipment comes with series N connectors while my shop and product preference is for BNC or SMA connectors. Hence, I almost never have an RF testing task that does not include one or more adapters in the setup. A small but exemplar selection of such devices can be seen here: http://www.amphenolconnex.com/catalog/adapters.pdf The only difference for the adapter Stan wrestled with is that BOTH ends attach to the SAME connector series. One could probably find somebody who makes a BNC/SMA right angle, or TNC/N or UHF/BNC, etc. . . . The folks at TED would be pleased to whip out any needed configuration. Stan's experience with the bad adapter is unfortunate but fortunately very rare. I've replaced dozens of connectors that were damaged or improperly assembled over the years including some adapters. At the same time, I've worked in facilities that had literally thousands of connectors AND adapters of all styles that were never touched after the initial installation except for servicing some piece of equipment. Stan has professed to being and "ignorant layman". I'll suggest that now he has uniquely benefited from a memorable if expensive lesson in his own classroom/shop. By sharing his experience with us, he has armed us with new ideas to explore when investigating poor performance from some device that hooks to an antenna. Let us continue to improve the return on investment for Stan's expense by storing his experience away in our own gray-matter archives. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.