---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/21/09: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:15 AM - 2009 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle) 2. 04:16 AM - Re: 120 volt connectors (bob noffs) 3. 04:31 AM - In-line Battery Fuse; great find (Jay Hyde) 4. 07:42 AM - Re: In-line Battery Fuse; great find () 5. 07:53 AM - GFCI and PRE-HEATERS (racerjerry) 6. 08:17 AM - Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS (Richard Girard) 7. 08:23 AM - Re: 120 volt connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:24 AM - Re: In-line Battery Fuse; great find (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:56 AM - Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS (racerjerry) 10. 09:24 AM - Re: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS () 11. 09:45 AM - Re: In-line Battery Fuse; great find (Jay Hyde) 12. 09:45 AM - Re: In-line Battery Fuse; great find (Jay Hyde) 13. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS (bob noffs) 14. 11:49 AM - Re: In-line Battery Fuse; great find (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 03:24 PM - duracell battery leak (ray) 16. 03:54 PM - Re: duracell battery leak (ray) 17. 04:35 PM - Re: Duracell battery leak (S. Ramirez) 18. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS (Ed Anderson) 19. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 11:25 PM - Re: Ammeter help (Keith Burris) 21. 11:38 PM - Re: In-line Battery Fuse; great find (Jay Hyde) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:07 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: 2009 List of Contributors Dear Listers, The 2009 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible. Their generous contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running. You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I also want to thank Bob, Jon, Andy, and John for their generous support through the supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and I encourage you to visit their respective web sites: Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com John Caldwell - HowToCrimp - www.howtocrimp.com And finally, I'm proud to present The 2009 Fund Raiser List of Contributors: http://www.matronics.com/loc/2009.html Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 120 volt connectors From: bob noffs hi all, thanks for all the ideas. i think i will go with the computer receptacle and knife splices. i would only need the knife splices if a heat pad fails and i can carry the computer cord in the airplane. bob noffs On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > At 03:41 PM 12/20/2009, you wrote: > >> i guess my question wasn.t clear. i am concerned about what type of radio >> shack connector will be acceptable for 120 volts where each heatpad lead >> connects to the ''main'' lead. i would see the ''main lead'' wired into the >> ac chassis socket. >> > > "Acceptable" is a hard term to define. The concerns > for any wiring that carries a lot of voltage and > supplied from an energetic source (15A or better > breaker) is integrity of the connections. When > folks wire such devices in houses, they're either > spliced permanently and independently insulated > or semi-permanent connection (wire nut, screw clamp, > etc) inside a suitable enclosure. > > The knife splices are as close as you can get to > permanent and still open the joints for maintenance. > Soldered splices under heat shrink would be the > most "acceptable" in terms of mechanical robustness. > > If you're prepared to live with anything less, then > about any connector in the catalog will do. > > Bob . . . > > \ >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:13 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find I came across a great inline battery fuse that simplified my life a lot- see the picture. I found it at our local RS Components store (part number 337-7921 for the 75A version). Search www.rssouthafrica.com using the part number to see more. I'm sure that you will be able to find similar things elsewhere. Jay ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find From: Jay, Nice looking product. Many auto manufacturers use a similar approach with a cheaper fuse link or glass fuse (old jobs). Do they have one for a 10mm bolt? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 7:26 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find I came across a great inline battery fuse that simplified my life a lot- see the picture. I found it at our local RS Components store (part number 337-7921 for the 75A version). Search www.rssouthafrica.com using the part number to see more. I'm sure that you will be able to find similar things elsewhere. Jay ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:45 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS From: "racerjerry" With the cold weather, I see great interest in homemade 120 VAC powered pre-heat systems for our aircraft. A truly wonderful and very inexpensive device was developed quite some time ago that can easily save you life; the Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. Fuses and circuit breakers do absolutely NOTHING to protect you; they are sized to protect wiring and equipment. One tenth of one amp (0.1 amp) can quite easily kill a healthy adult (I am not kidding). If you are planning to drag extension cords through the snow, you definitely need GFCI protection. Since they sense differential current, GFCIs offer protection even when operating off of old style 2-wire (ungrounded) circuits. You can buy a plug-in GFCI for use at the airport or even better, make your own extension cord by mounting a normal GFCI into a steel electrical box along with a heavy 3-wire appliance cord and use it for ALL your power tools. This setup wont protect if you are dumb enough to put your fingers across hot and neutral, but works extremely well if you touch something electrically hot and your body happens to be even slightly grounded (through dampness or touching grounded metal) or are using that old metal housing portable electric drill you found in the trash with frayed insulation and with the grounding prong clipped off. Seriously, always power your 120 VAC tools through a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter protected circuit. Also, before you use that homemade pre-heat setup in the snow, please remember these four letters: GFCI. We are having too much fun. It could save your life. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278441#278441 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS From: Richard Girard Since a GCFI protects everything downstream of it, why would you not simply install one in place of the hangar receptacle and use a regular extension cord? Rick Girard On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 9:47 AM, racerjerry wrote: > gki@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > > With the cold weather, I see great interest in homemade 120 VAC powered > pre-heat systems for our aircraft. A truly wonderful and very inexpensiv e > device was developed quite some time ago that can easily save you life; t he > Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. Fuses and circuit breakers do absolute ly > NOTHING to protect you; they are sized to protect wiring and equipment. One > tenth of one amp (0.1 amp) can quite easily kill a healthy adult (I am no t > kidding). If you are planning to drag extension cords through the snow, you > definitely need GFCI protection. > > Since they sense differential current, GFCI=92s offer protection even whe n > operating off of old style 2-wire (ungrounded) circuits. You can buy a > plug-in GFCI for use at the airport or even better, make your own extensi on > cord by mounting a normal GFCI into a steel electrical box along with a > heavy 3-wire appliance cord and use it for ALL your power tools. This se tup > won=92t protect if you are dumb enough to put your fingers across hot and > neutral, but works extremely well if you touch something electrically hot > and your body happens to be even slightly grounded (through dampness or > touching grounded metal) or are using that old metal housing portable > electric drill you found in the trash with frayed insulation and with the > grounding prong clipped off. > > Seriously, always power your 120 VAC tools through a Ground Fault Circuit > Interrupter protected circuit. Also, before you use that homemade pre-he at > setup in the snow, please remember these four letters: GFCI. We are havi ng > too much fun. It could save your life. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278441#278441 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 120 volt connectors At 06:13 AM 12/21/2009, you wrote: >hi all, > thanks for all the ideas. i think i will go with the computer > receptacle and knife splices. i would only need the knife splices > if a heat pad fails and i can carry the computer cord in the airplane. If you can, see what the Tannis folks do about wiring up heaters on TC aircraft. Have the "computer" cord receptacle face downward in the airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find At 06:25 AM 12/21/2009, you wrote: >I came across a great inline battery fuse that simplified my life a >lot- see the picture. > >I found it at our local RS Components store (part number 337-7921 >for the 75A version). Search >www.rssouthafrica.com using the part >number to see more. I'm sure that you will be able to find similar >things elsewhere. In what applications have you found this product to be useful? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS From: "racerjerry" Quote: "Since a GCFI protects everything downstream of it, why would you not simply install one in place of the hangar receptacle and use a regular extension cord? Rick Girard " I strongly agree; replacement of the wall outlet with a standard GFCI is ABSOLUTELY THE PREFERRED METHOD! BUT, if you have to use someone else's facility, or are temporarily operating off of a power pole, a portable GFCI setup is a viable alternative. Also, use an inexpensive plug-in polarity checker to check for reversed wiring. Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278451#278451 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS From: Just a thought, but you may not own the hangar or have rights to change stuff? You may be parked outside and dragging a 50ft extension from the nearest plug while standing in melting snow? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of racerjerry Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:52 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS Quote: "Since a GCFI protects everything downstream of it, why would you not simply install one in place of the hangar receptacle and use a regular extension cord? Rick Girard " I strongly agree; replacement of the wall outlet with a standard GFCI is ABSOLUTELY THE PREFERRED METHOD! BUT, if you have to use someone else's facility, or are temporarily operating off of a power pole, a portable GFCI setup is a viable alternative. Also, use an inexpensive plug-in polarity checker to check for reversed wiring. Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278451#278451 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:28 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find Doesn't look like it- but perhaps you can make an extension from your battery post to go down to an 8mm hole as I described in my other mail. Jay _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: 21 December 2009 05:37 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find Jay, Nice looking product. Many auto manufacturers use a similar approach with a cheaper fuse link or glass fuse (old jobs). Do they have one for a 10mm bolt? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 7:26 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find I came across a great inline battery fuse that simplified my life a lot- see the picture. I found it at our local RS Components store (part number 337-7921 for the 75A version). Search www.rssouthafrica.com using the part number to see more. I'm sure that you will be able to find similar things elsewhere. Jay ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:29 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find I used it to protect a long fat wire from my aux/ 2nd battery which is located at the back of the aircraft. I had quite a small space to work in and hadn't thought about protecting the wire in the first place, but realized that I needed to put some form of protection in. Whilst searching for a local ANL type device I came across this and realized that I wouldn't need to add the ANL base; since there wasn't much space to work in that was a great relief. The picture that I added isn't completely clear- the device itself is just the white/cream coloured box with a clear top that is between the lug and the battery terminal. My battery terminals are flat but the holes in them are too small for an 8mm bolt so I added a copper extension with an 8mm hole to bolt the fuse to. I also had to make an insulating washer to insulate the nut as I had not ordered the insulating nut that is shown in the picture. Jay _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 21 December 2009 06:21 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find At 06:25 AM 12/21/2009, you wrote: I came across a great inline battery fuse that simplified my life a lot- see the picture. I found it at our local RS Components store (part number 337-7921 for the 75A version). Search www.rssouthafrica.com using the part number to see more. I=12m sure that you will be able to find similar things elsewhere. In what applications have you found this product to be useful? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS From: bob noffs i agree with the importance of a gfi. my experience with the gfi weatherproof receptacle for plugging my car block heaters in [20 below f is common here] was that they were always tripping. i removed them and put in gfi circuit breakers in my circuit breaker panel. reliability went way up. yes, they are installed correctly in my panel. bob noffs On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:16 AM, wrote: > > Just a thought, but you may not own the hangar or have rights to change > stuff? You may be parked outside and dragging a 50ft extension from the > nearest plug while standing in melting snow? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > racerjerry > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:52 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS > > > > Quote: "Since a GCFI protects everything downstream of it, why would you > not simply install one in place of the hangar receptacle and use a > regular extension cord? > > Rick Girard " > > I strongly agree; replacement of the wall outlet with a standard GFCI is > ABSOLUTELY THE PREFERRED METHOD! BUT, if you have to use someone else's > facility, or are temporarily operating off of a power pole, a portable > GFCI setup is a viable alternative. Also, use an inexpensive plug-in > polarity checker to check for reversed wiring. > > Jerry King > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278451#278451 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find At 11:35 AM 12/21/2009, you wrote: >I used it to protect a long fat wire from my aux/ 2nd battery which >is located at the back of the aircraft. I had quite a small space >to work in and hadn't thought about protecting the wire in the first >place, but realized that I needed to put some form of protection >in. Whilst searching for a local ANL type device I came across this >and realized that I wouldn't need to add the ANL base; since there >wasn't much space to work in that was a great relief. Hmmmm . . . conventional wisdom in TC aircraft calls for no single always-hot wire to be protected at more than 5A (breakered) from which I extrapolated 7A (fused). FAT feeders from a battery normally call for at least a mini-contactor like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z32K.pdf "If the bus isn't at the battery, it's not a battery bus" Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:40 PM PST US From: ray Subject: AeroElectric-List: duracell battery leak Listers, Just another data point. I had a Duracell AA battery sitting in a battery holder on a shelf and I just looked at and the bottom had leaked while it was sitting in the holder. This has been stored at room temp and was slightly used but showed good on the little built in tester when I put it in the holder. Raymond Julian ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:14 PM PST US From: ray Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: duracell battery leak I found the battery. It was a AAA with an expiration of Mar 2010. It still showed over 1.3 volts once I cleaned the crud off. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN do not archive ray wrote: > > Listers, > > Just another data point. I had a Duracell AA battery sitting in a > battery holder on a shelf and I just looked at and the bottom had leaked > while it was sitting in the holder. This has been stored at room temp > and was slightly used but showed good on the little built in tester when > I put it in the holder. > > Raymond Julian > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:19 PM PST US From: "S. Ramirez" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Duracell battery leak Ray, I've heard too many sob stories about Duracell alkalines. I've also heard a few sob stories about Ray-O-Vacs. I decided that alkalines aren't worth having in my toys, so I've gone with lithium AA and AAA batteries by ordering them from www.batteryjunction.com to offset some of the cost. I don't have any data that says lithium is any better, but my reasoning is that manufacturers control leakage better from lithium batteries because they are more dangerous. Does anyone have data on leakage from lithium AA and AAA batteries? Simon Ramirez Copyright 2009 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ray Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 6:53 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: duracell battery leak I found the battery. It was a AAA with an expiration of Mar 2010. It still showed over 1.3 volts once I cleaned the crud off. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN do not archive ray wrote: > > Listers, > > Just another data point. I had a Duracell AA battery sitting in a > battery holder on a shelf and I just looked at and the bottom had leaked > while it was sitting in the holder. This has been stored at room temp > and was slightly used but showed good on the little built in tester when > I put it in the holder. > > Raymond Julian > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:57 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS I wired my hangar a couple of years ago, running the wire through conduct. I decided to use a common neutral wire between the two 120 volt phases to reduce the size of the wire to be run through the conduct and to have two separate circuits. Well, the wiring worked fine. However, I decided to install GFCI circuit breakers in the electric box to provide some protection. To make a long story short, I discovered that some GFCI circuit breakers will not work wired to a common neutral. I was attempting to use one plug on the socket to carry one 120 volt circuit and the other plug to carry the other 120 volt circuit and the common neutral. Just did not work and I finally found in very fine print on the carton that this particular GFCI simply would not work with my set up. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:23 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS i agree with the importance of a gfi. my experience with the gfi weatherproof receptacle for plugging my car block heaters in [20 below f is common here] was that they were always tripping. i removed them and put in gfi circuit breakers in my circuit breaker panel. reliability went way up. yes, they are installed correctly in my panel. bob noffs On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:16 AM, wrote: Just a thought, but you may not own the hangar or have rights to change stuff? You may be parked outside and dragging a 50ft extension from the nearest plug while standing in melting snow? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of racerjerry Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:52 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI and PRE-HEATERS Quote: "Since a GCFI protects everything downstream of it, why would you not simply install one in place of the hangar receptacle and use a regular extension cord? Rick Girard " I strongly agree; replacement of the wall outlet with a standard GFCI is ABSOLUTELY THE PREFERRED METHOD! BUT, if you have to use someone else's facility, or are temporarily operating off of a power pole, a portable GFCI setup is a viable alternative. Also, use an inexpensive plug-in polarity checker to check for reversed wiring. Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278451#278451 -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, Li - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - : oElectric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroEl================== http://forums.m=========== Month -- Gifts!) Raiser. Click on out more about Gifts provided __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:16 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Opti-Miser At 12:55 PM 12/10/2009, you wrote: > >Yes, indeed it is possible and even money saving to use such a >device. I was initially puzzled how little technical stuff there >was, but then I remembered that NASA worked on, published and >licensed everything in the early 1980s. (Patent + 20 years...hey!). > >Power-Miser technology was a big deal then: Google "Power Miser >NASA" and you will get lots of info. Or search the old NASA archives >or patents around 1980. > >The way the thing works is er...ah...well...I think it might change >the power factor to match the load. I did a lot of work on power >factor correction and I can assure you saving money is possible. >This works only on inductive loads as far as I remember. > >The product is real, and so is the money savings. How long it takes >to pay off the device varies. THAT IS the big question. Given that improvements in performance are achieved by improvements in I-squared*R losses, then savings to be realized are a function of just how "bad" the "bad" system is. Most household motor loads tend to be small and intermittent. Further, these loads have enjoyed incremental improvements in efficiency over the years. Bottom line is that if ALL the badness of a stock system can be compensated for, the savings are NOT going to be more than a few percent and that's for devices which contribute to overall "badness". If these loads are intermittent, then the savings is multiplied by some duty cycle that is less than 1.0. Bottom line is, don't pay much for any such device without having solid measurements that predict improvements with an acceptable return on investment. See: http://tinyurl.com/3pbopt P.S. Just because NASA did it does not make it "golden" . . . Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:51 PM PST US From: "Keith Burris" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ammeter help Folks; Thanks to all who replied-all of it useful. However, I need an explanation, most likely from Bob regarding ammeters. Bob, I recently purchased rev 12 of the Connection. Page 4-9, last paragraph says: A zero center, battery ammeter is the most desirable and should be the first electrical system instrument you install. Again, on page 7-12, last paragraph, you state: if you plan only one electrical system instrument, make it a battery ammeter.. With the above being in your book and presumably vetted by yourself, I became confused when I read in your response to my original post, the following: Battery ammeters are of limited utility and again the ammeter offers no useful data for operating the airplane I need to ask did I completely misinterpret the book? I have Rev 12, which I am led to believe is the most current (no pun intended), or has your mind changed substantially since 12 was published? If that is the case, would you be willing to expound and elucidate on the subject of the necessity of ammeters in the cockpit? Thanks in advance. * Keith * PS The book is great. I did not become aware of it until I attended an EAA SportAir class where it was highly recommended. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:41 PM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find Good point- I have a problem with the aircraft architecture though; the kit manufacturers don't tell you where you can drill holes into structural members so I had to go around them and through different members. I didn't want to drill too many holes or stuff a lot of thinner wires into a small hole so I decided to run one fat wire that is well protected, both electrically and mechanically (much easier to do with one fat wire than many thin ones) up to the front. In this instance the battery bus is not a battery bus as defined, but I have been able to get a second battery in at the back of the aircraft without making too many holes in important places. Jay _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 21 December 2009 09:46 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: In-line Battery Fuse; great find At 11:35 AM 12/21/2009, you wrote: I used it to protect a long fat wire from my aux/ 2nd battery which is located at the back of the aircraft. I had quite a small space to work in and hadn=12t thought about protecting the wire in the first place, but realized that I needed to put some form of protection in. Whilst searching for a local ANL type device I came across this and realized that I wouldn=12t need to add the ANL base; since there wasn=12t much space to work in that was a great relief. Hmmmm . . . conventional wisdom in TC aircraft calls for no single always-hot wire to be protected at more than 5A (breakered) from which I extrapolated 7A (fused). FAT feeders from a battery normally call for at least a mini-contactor like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z32K.pdf "If the bus isn't at the battery, it's not a battery bus" Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.