Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: Battery leakage (n801bh@netzero.com)
2. 06:23 AM - Re: duracell battery leak (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:41 AM - Re: "engineers" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: "engineers" (Ralph & Maria Finch)
5. 02:58 PM - Re: duracell battery leak (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:24 PM - Re: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Battery leakage |
Stan. I Agree with you 100 %. I too have witnessed a rise in leakage in
the last few years and some episodes have been within a short period of
time since battery replacement or new start up. I am convinced there is
a systematic degrading of battery construction throughout the industry.
I have had Duracells, Everready's and other brands fail.
Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com
riginal Message ----------
From: Speedy11@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery leakage
Regardless, many of us ARE having leakage problems. I discovered my hig
h dollar LED flishlight (used frequently and batteries changed often) "w
elded" closed due to battery leakage just one week ago. I couldn't get
the batteries out and threw away the flashlight. I had changed from eve
r using Duracells again and the faulty batteries this time were Everread
y.Someone mentioned last week on this forum that the problem might not b
e with a particular brand, but with alkalines in general. I'm beginning
to think there may be some validity to that argument. Or perhaps the p
roblem is caused by the "cheaper" manufacturing process. Perhaps the Ch
inese cannot make leak resistant batteries as well as Americans or Mexic
ans.Or perhaps the fault lies in the design of the battery. With the co
rrect design, I suspect quality batteries could be built anywhere.Though
ts?Stan Sutterfield If you dig around in my alkaline cell stock that
ranges from AAAA to D cells, you'll find a host of
different brands. I've not suffered a severe battery
leakage event in so long I don't recall the last time.
At the same time, we go through batteries pretty
quickly. No cell sits around in a seldom used
device.
The fact that some of us here on the
list have suffered a leakage event with a particular
brand is not a definitive study of the propensity
of that brand for failure. If say 90% of all cells
presently occupying the battery box of our favorite
accessories are Duracells . . . it's axiomatic that
the propensity of any failures will be in Duracells.
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Message 2
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Subject: | Re: duracell battery leak |
At 10:01 PM 12/24/2009, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>I don't think its an issue of a definitive study but rather
>experience gained over time. Myself I never used to have problems
>with Duracells leaking - even if they were dead - now they leak for
>no determined reason even if not fully discharged. Even new ones
>used well within there date code in my PDA device leaked.
Well put. The preponderance of experience here on the
List is compelling.
A great deal of what's accepted as "best practice",
"policy", or whatever has been developed over years
of crafting successful recipes in the kitchen. Chefs
in those kitchens may not be able to articulate the
foundations for their success based on the physics
but they can certainly demonstrate what has worked . . .
and probably many more things that didn't work.
It seems that the chefs in Duracell's battery
kitchen have lost the touch.
It's a certainty that every manufacturer of high-
volume, well competed products is always looking
for ways to improve market share (increased
advertising . . . perhaps reputation for superior
quality, etc.). At the same time, they're looking
for ways to keep the stock-holders happy. NOT an
easy task or everyone could do it. It may well be
that the management of once great suppliers of
alkaline cells no longer possess the 'magic' that
propelled them to center stage in the first place.
We've seen it happen many times with many products.
We're going to see it in the future.
It will be interesting to watch the market
dynamic in alkaline cells The majority of cases where
product performance is found lacking do not support
our own detailed studies of simple-ideas behind a
failure to perform. But do ourselves well to
avoid demonstrable problem children . . . which is
EXACTLY what this List is all about.
I regret that I've become ignorant of any such
failures in the Duracell kitchen . . .
I don't think I've bought more than a few dozen
name-brand cells in the last 10 years!
Bob . . .
Message 3
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At 07:25 PM 12/24/2009, you wrote:
>First, Merry Christmas everyone.
>
>Second, George,
>
>I personally have, in many ways, similar feelings to Bob towards
>Engineers. It is not the engineers fault exactly but it seems there
>are a lot of jobs out there that have little or nothing to do with
>engineering that people, usually in human resources, have decreed
>can only be filled by an engineer. There also seems a certain
>snobbishness among many engineers. Looking at your signature you are
>apparently a mechanical engineer, working as a pilot, giving an
>opinion on batteries so it would seem your qualifications to discuss
>batteries is no greater than anyone else.
Exactly! I'd have to review any words I've written that
seem to denigrate engineers in general. I don't harbor
such notions now and I don't recall having done so in the
past. What I have decried is the manner in which the
potential for creativity while expanding personal horizons
is quashed by the business models and policies of company
management. Beech was very good at turning potentially
good designers into paper pushers.
When I retired from Beech, the VP of engineering shook
my hand . . . congratulated me and asked, "Who do we
tap now to do the things you've been doing for us?"
I looked over at my chief scientist with raise eyebrows.
He shrugged. Out of 800+ engineers (I presume most if not
all were degreed) neither he nor I knew of one individual
who could step into what I'd been doing for the past 13
years.
While acquisition of a diploma can be a solid foundation
for launching a career, too often we find careers molded
more by policy, procedure, and opportunity (or lack of it).
I was exceedingly fortunate that my first jobs offered
boundless opportunity. My last job didn't offer opportunity,
I had to MAKE it my self.
So like the once-great Duracell brand, perhaps well find
that Beech is no longer worthy of the marketplace position
it once held so capably. I've counseled many young bucks
fresh out of school to be cognizant of their progress
in ANY direction. When progress stops . . . take action.
There was one promising fellow who was interviewing for
a job at Beech to whom I suggested he find a company
with no more than 100 employees. "Be a big fish in a
small pond", I suggested . . . and explained why based
on my own career success.
He didn't come to work for us. That was about 10
years ago. I trust his horizons run out further today
than what we could have offered him at Beech.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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There has been a general and profound decay and collapse of leadership
throughout the United States over the past few decades. Compare the 1960s
(when I was growing up) to now. Then: Man on the moon in 8 years; Now:
years to produce a rocket that doesn't do more than the Saturn 5. Then:
Build the world's best university and freeway system in California; Now: sit
around arguing as those same systems decay into mediocrity. Then: exercise
fiscal prudence in banking to supply credit for business progress; Now:
exercise wild and greedy schemes to ruin the world economy. Then: Start a
stupid war half way around the world for nothing. Now: oh, wait, some
things remain the same.
This is, of course, far beyond engineers. I don't see any permanent
improvement happening to our leadership either, most everybody has become
hooked on stupid pills. That leaves it to individuals, as Bob N. put.
And why not? That's where we started nearly 400 years ago, individuals
banding together and bettering their own lot.
In my professional life I'm a water resources engineer doing numerical
modeling for a large state agency. Leadership has declined over the last 20
years to where it's impossible to get anything quality done through
management. But instead of waiting for them to realize what the problems are
and providing support, we are moving ahead with crowd-sourcing to check
data, review source code, etc. This email list and other forums are a form
of the same thing: individuals getting together on our own to improve things
for everybody. The need is the same, just the technology different from the
Pilgrims.
Ralph Finch
Davis, California
RV-9A QB SA
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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: duracell battery leak |
At 12:08 PM 12/24/2009, you wrote:
Bob:
I like the article and have done many test like that, especially with
rechargeable NiMh. I have one complaint, where you say "as Engineers
we'er....". Who is "we" engineers? Normally I would not mind, but you in
particular, have shown some kind of irrational disrespect and personal
animus for any one who is an a true engineer.
Your penchant for mis-interpreting and/or using
facts not in evidence to assign motive to my words
is legendary . . .
Bob, you don't have an engineering degree. In fact on these forums you
have attacked and maligned the engineering profession with vitriolic
rants.
George, you'll have to be specific. Please link
us to any "rant" I may have indulged myself . . .
it's no doubt in the archives.
You really should not "embellish" your qualifications. Engineers go
to school and learn math, physics, science and an intensive engineering
curriculum. I'm offended you'd even think you are an "engineer". It's just
dishonest.
I have never claimed to be anything more than what
my resume' states nor what my employers were willing
to compensate me for performing. Since they paid me
well for my performance as an engineer in the
company of other engineers, you'll please forgive
me if I defer to their definition of the task as
opposed to the opinion of one who pays me nothing,
designs nothing, has offered no well considered teachings
nor satisfies any customer base.
I humbly suggest that while you claim be an engineer
on paper, I'm an engineer in the marketplace of
customers. Your studies may have ended years ago
but mine have been ongoing since childhood. I am
(as should we all be) a life-long students/teachers
in the college of "make it work".
You are not a Doctor, Lawyer or Indian Chief either. Is that
battery test circuit your original design?
Say what? It's a computer driven data acquisition
module set up to plot voltage over time. If one
uses a tape measure to gather statistical data
on the variation in lengths on pre-cut studs,
is one obligated to tip their hat to who ever
perfected the roll-up steel tape?
Here is another link with extensive comparisons of brands of alkaline
batteries.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64660
Nice work . . . much of the data meshes with the study
I did. The article offers some interesting findings
on absolute performance. The study I conducted went
to a deduction of $value$ for the various products.
The idea was to meet design goals for minimizing cost
of a single mission while maximizing reliability of
the battery powered device by not fiddling with
loose cells and battery box covers in the cockpit.
Personally I am sold on NiMh for all my applications. People complain
they don't last as long. I suspect they don't have the latest NiMh
technology, . . .
<snip>
. . . receiver. I do keep some Alkaline's around for "emergencies". However
with all the NiMh fully charged I really don't need them.
An interesting design goal . . . but doesn't
seem to address the topic of this thread. Are
you starting a new thread? If you want to talk
NiMh, I've personally tossed out never-used cells
from inventory that already showed signs of leakage . . .
Merry Christmas every one, fly safe!
George, you wade in kicking up a cloud of chicken
feathers and pigeon poop and then wish folks
a merry Christmas . . . at best disingenuous
and at worst hypocritical to the extreme.
Bob Nuckolls, EPT (Engineer in perpetual training)
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches |
I like the AML 34 switches and AML 41 indicators too. Here's my Z-14
design and specs.
John Burnaby wrote:
> Bob,
> Now you've got me thinking Z-14. If I go with another alternator, I'm
> one contactor away from Z-14.
>
> One thing that is vexing to me is that I'm using Honeywell AML 34
> switches because the aesthetics appeal to me. Problem is that they are
> only available as DPST. I haven't thought about this too much, but I'm
> assuming that I can accomplish the switching functions shown in Z-14
> and other architectures with the Honeywell switches, but I'll just
> have to use more of them and some behind-the-panel circuitry??? I can
> see the S-700-2-5 being replaced with an AML 34 and a pusbutton
> switch. But what combination would I use to achieve the function of
> S-700-2-10? In other architectures I see this switch associated with
> some automatic function that I don't understand.
> *
>
>
> *
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