---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/25/09: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: Battery leakage (n801bh@netzero.com) 2. 06:23 AM - Re: duracell battery leak (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:41 AM - Re: "engineers" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: "engineers" (Ralph & Maria Finch) 5. 02:58 PM - Re: duracell battery leak (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:24 PM - Re: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches (Bill Mauledriver Watson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:20 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery leakage Stan. I Agree with you 100 %. I too have witnessed a rise in leakage in the last few years and some episodes have been within a short period of time since battery replacement or new start up. I am convinced there is a systematic degrading of battery construction throughout the industry. I have had Duracells, Everready's and other brands fail. Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com riginal Message ---------- From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery leakage Regardless, many of us ARE having leakage problems. I discovered my hig h dollar LED flishlight (used frequently and batteries changed often) "w elded" closed due to battery leakage just one week ago. I couldn't get the batteries out and threw away the flashlight. I had changed from eve r using Duracells again and the faulty batteries this time were Everread y.Someone mentioned last week on this forum that the problem might not b e with a particular brand, but with alkalines in general. I'm beginning to think there may be some validity to that argument. Or perhaps the p roblem is caused by the "cheaper" manufacturing process. Perhaps the Ch inese cannot make leak resistant batteries as well as Americans or Mexic ans.Or perhaps the fault lies in the design of the battery. With the co rrect design, I suspect quality batteries could be built anywhere.Though ts?Stan Sutterfield If you dig around in my alkaline cell stock that ranges from AAAA to D cells, you'll find a host of different brands. I've not suffered a severe battery leakage event in so long I don't recall the last time. At the same time, we go through batteries pretty quickly. No cell sits around in a seldom used device. The fact that some of us here on the list have suffered a leakage event with a particular brand is not a definitive study of the propensity of that brand for failure. If say 90% of all cells presently occupying the battery box of our favorite accessories are Duracells . . . it's axiomatic that the propensity of any failures will be in Duracells. ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ============ ____________________________________________________________ Nutrition Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=HItar5ixWEady-UwpHm6Q gAAJ1GgTD6yWnN9nTOcXhzb7nn5AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASQ wAAAAA ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:15 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: duracell battery leak At 10:01 PM 12/24/2009, you wrote: > >Bob, >I don't think its an issue of a definitive study but rather >experience gained over time. Myself I never used to have problems >with Duracells leaking - even if they were dead - now they leak for >no determined reason even if not fully discharged. Even new ones >used well within there date code in my PDA device leaked. Well put. The preponderance of experience here on the List is compelling. A great deal of what's accepted as "best practice", "policy", or whatever has been developed over years of crafting successful recipes in the kitchen. Chefs in those kitchens may not be able to articulate the foundations for their success based on the physics but they can certainly demonstrate what has worked . . . and probably many more things that didn't work. It seems that the chefs in Duracell's battery kitchen have lost the touch. It's a certainty that every manufacturer of high- volume, well competed products is always looking for ways to improve market share (increased advertising . . . perhaps reputation for superior quality, etc.). At the same time, they're looking for ways to keep the stock-holders happy. NOT an easy task or everyone could do it. It may well be that the management of once great suppliers of alkaline cells no longer possess the 'magic' that propelled them to center stage in the first place. We've seen it happen many times with many products. We're going to see it in the future. It will be interesting to watch the market dynamic in alkaline cells The majority of cases where product performance is found lacking do not support our own detailed studies of simple-ideas behind a failure to perform. But do ourselves well to avoid demonstrable problem children . . . which is EXACTLY what this List is all about. I regret that I've become ignorant of any such failures in the Duracell kitchen . . . I don't think I've bought more than a few dozen name-brand cells in the last 10 years! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: "engineers" At 07:25 PM 12/24/2009, you wrote: >First, Merry Christmas everyone. > >Second, George, > >I personally have, in many ways, similar feelings to Bob towards >Engineers. It is not the engineers fault exactly but it seems there >are a lot of jobs out there that have little or nothing to do with >engineering that people, usually in human resources, have decreed >can only be filled by an engineer. There also seems a certain >snobbishness among many engineers. Looking at your signature you are >apparently a mechanical engineer, working as a pilot, giving an >opinion on batteries so it would seem your qualifications to discuss >batteries is no greater than anyone else. Exactly! I'd have to review any words I've written that seem to denigrate engineers in general. I don't harbor such notions now and I don't recall having done so in the past. What I have decried is the manner in which the potential for creativity while expanding personal horizons is quashed by the business models and policies of company management. Beech was very good at turning potentially good designers into paper pushers. When I retired from Beech, the VP of engineering shook my hand . . . congratulated me and asked, "Who do we tap now to do the things you've been doing for us?" I looked over at my chief scientist with raise eyebrows. He shrugged. Out of 800+ engineers (I presume most if not all were degreed) neither he nor I knew of one individual who could step into what I'd been doing for the past 13 years. While acquisition of a diploma can be a solid foundation for launching a career, too often we find careers molded more by policy, procedure, and opportunity (or lack of it). I was exceedingly fortunate that my first jobs offered boundless opportunity. My last job didn't offer opportunity, I had to MAKE it my self. So like the once-great Duracell brand, perhaps well find that Beech is no longer worthy of the marketplace position it once held so capably. I've counseled many young bucks fresh out of school to be cognizant of their progress in ANY direction. When progress stops . . . take action. There was one promising fellow who was interviewing for a job at Beech to whom I suggested he find a company with no more than 100 employees. "Be a big fish in a small pond", I suggested . . . and explained why based on my own career success. He didn't come to work for us. That was about 10 years ago. I trust his horizons run out further today than what we could have offered him at Beech. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:58 AM PST US From: "Ralph & Maria Finch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: "engineers" There has been a general and profound decay and collapse of leadership throughout the United States over the past few decades. Compare the 1960s (when I was growing up) to now. Then: Man on the moon in 8 years; Now: years to produce a rocket that doesn't do more than the Saturn 5. Then: Build the world's best university and freeway system in California; Now: sit around arguing as those same systems decay into mediocrity. Then: exercise fiscal prudence in banking to supply credit for business progress; Now: exercise wild and greedy schemes to ruin the world economy. Then: Start a stupid war half way around the world for nothing. Now: oh, wait, some things remain the same. This is, of course, far beyond engineers. I don't see any permanent improvement happening to our leadership either, most everybody has become hooked on stupid pills. That leaves it to individuals, as Bob N. put. And why not? That's where we started nearly 400 years ago, individuals banding together and bettering their own lot. In my professional life I'm a water resources engineer doing numerical modeling for a large state agency. Leadership has declined over the last 20 years to where it's impossible to get anything quality done through management. But instead of waiting for them to realize what the problems are and providing support, we are moving ahead with crowd-sourcing to check data, review source code, etc. This email list and other forums are a form of the same thing: individuals getting together on our own to improve things for everybody. The need is the same, just the technology different from the Pilgrims. Ralph Finch Davis, California RV-9A QB SA __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4716 (20091225) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: duracell battery leak At 12:08 PM 12/24/2009, you wrote: Bob: I like the article and have done many test like that, especially with rechargeable NiMh. I have one complaint, where you say "as Engineers we'er....". Who is "we" engineers? Normally I would not mind, but you in particular, have shown some kind of irrational disrespect and personal animus for any one who is an a true engineer. Your penchant for mis-interpreting and/or using facts not in evidence to assign motive to my words is legendary . . . Bob, you don't have an engineering degree. In fact on these forums you have attacked and maligned the engineering profession with vitriolic rants. George, you'll have to be specific. Please link us to any "rant" I may have indulged myself . . . it's no doubt in the archives. You really should not "embellish" your qualifications. Engineers go to school and learn math, physics, science and an intensive engineering curriculum. I'm offended you'd even think you are an "engineer". It's just dishonest. I have never claimed to be anything more than what my resume' states nor what my employers were willing to compensate me for performing. Since they paid me well for my performance as an engineer in the company of other engineers, you'll please forgive me if I defer to their definition of the task as opposed to the opinion of one who pays me nothing, designs nothing, has offered no well considered teachings nor satisfies any customer base. I humbly suggest that while you claim be an engineer on paper, I'm an engineer in the marketplace of customers. Your studies may have ended years ago but mine have been ongoing since childhood. I am (as should we all be) a life-long students/teachers in the college of "make it work". You are not a Doctor, Lawyer or Indian Chief either. Is that battery test circuit your original design? Say what? It's a computer driven data acquisition module set up to plot voltage over time. If one uses a tape measure to gather statistical data on the variation in lengths on pre-cut studs, is one obligated to tip their hat to who ever perfected the roll-up steel tape? Here is another link with extensive comparisons of brands of alkaline batteries. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64660 Nice work . . . much of the data meshes with the study I did. The article offers some interesting findings on absolute performance. The study I conducted went to a deduction of $value$ for the various products. The idea was to meet design goals for minimizing cost of a single mission while maximizing reliability of the battery powered device by not fiddling with loose cells and battery box covers in the cockpit. Personally I am sold on NiMh for all my applications. People complain they don't last as long. I suspect they don't have the latest NiMh technology, . . . . . . receiver. I do keep some Alkaline's around for "emergencies". However with all the NiMh fully charged I really don't need them. An interesting design goal . . . but doesn't seem to address the topic of this thread. Are you starting a new thread? If you want to talk NiMh, I've personally tossed out never-used cells from inventory that already showed signs of leakage . . . Merry Christmas every one, fly safe! George, you wade in kicking up a cloud of chicken feathers and pigeon poop and then wish folks a merry Christmas . . . at best disingenuous and at worst hypocritical to the extreme. Bob Nuckolls, EPT (Engineer in perpetual training) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:59 PM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches I like the AML 34 switches and AML 41 indicators too. Here's my Z-14 design and specs. John Burnaby wrote: > Bob, > Now you've got me thinking Z-14. If I go with another alternator, I'm > one contactor away from Z-14. > > One thing that is vexing to me is that I'm using Honeywell AML 34 > switches because the aesthetics appeal to me. Problem is that they are > only available as DPST. I haven't thought about this too much, but I'm > assuming that I can accomplish the switching functions shown in Z-14 > and other architectures with the Honeywell switches, but I'll just > have to use more of them and some behind-the-panel circuitry??? I can > see the S-700-2-5 being replaced with an AML 34 and a pusbutton > switch. But what combination would I use to achieve the function of > S-700-2-10? In other architectures I see this switch associated with > some automatic function that I don't understand. > * > > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.