Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:24 AM - Duracells again... (fox5flyer)
2. 06:20 AM - Battery Bus Location (PaulR)
3. 06:52 AM - Re: Re: Simplicity and circuit protection (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
4. 07:05 AM - Re: Duracells again... (n801bh@netzero.com)
5. 07:45 AM - Re: Duracells again... (Ron Quillin)
6. 07:45 AM - Re: Duracells again... (BobsV35B@aol.com)
7. 08:34 AM - Questions about circuit protection ()
8. 08:35 AM - Re: Duracells again... (jerb)
9. 01:43 PM - Re: Adding an antenna to improve on the ground reception? (jim-bean@att.net)
10. 02:12 PM - Max Alternator Voltage ? (John Markey)
11. 04:06 PM - Re: Response (speedy11@aol.com)
12. 04:39 PM - Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? (Ron Quillin)
13. 04:41 PM - Re: Adding an antenna to improve on the ground reception? (al38kit)
14. 07:41 PM - Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 07:42 PM - =?us-ascii?Q?Question_about_16V_POLYFUSER_Radial_Leaded_Resettable_PTC_Av?= =?us-ascii?Q?ailable_at_Digi-Key? (Jeffrey W. Skiba)
16. 08:31 PM - Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? (David LLoyd)
17. 08:31 PM - Re: Question about 16V POLYFUSER Radial Leaded Resettable PTC Available at Digi-Key (Ron Quillin)
Message 1
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Subject: | Duracells again... |
Yesterday, I was tinkering in my shop and when I attempted to use my
analog volt meter, I found the needle would not swing across when I
touched the leads together to calibrate it. Actually, the needle moved
about one third of the way. As I hadn't changed the batteries in over a
year I took the back off and low and behold I found a huge mess. Three
of the four AA batteries had leaked all over the inside of the meter
which effectively destroyed it as the resulting corrosion ruined the
battery contact terminals. I've used this meter (Amprobe) for more than
30 years and it has never failed me, but now it is now in the trash.
Never again with Duracells. Never...
Deke
Message 2
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Subject: | Battery Bus Location |
I'm working on locating items on the firewall and have a question on location of
the alway hot battery bus. I know that there is a length limit on the wire
powering this bus and with that in mind, it seems the ideal location for the fuse
block is on the hot side of the firewall.
Is this block and fuse combination okay to put on the hot side? Seems like it
defeats the purpose of this bus if it's feeder line is fused and then put on the
cool side of the firewall.
Thanks
--------
Paul Rose
N417PR (res)
RV-9A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279865#279865
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Simplicity and circuit protection |
I adopted that same thinking. The only pullable breakers I have are
flaps and AP. I have the Safety Trim system that is supposed to
limit/control runaway trim situations.
Bill Watson - still building
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> For some things that move control surfaces, I'd actually *insist* on
> pullable breakers....like electric trim, electric flaps, the
> Autopilot, and even electronic ignition. Those are things that
> some day you may want to find a way to pull power on...and would
> likely not even think about resetting them in most circumstances.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> mmayfield wrote:
>> <mmayfield@ozemail.com.au>
>>
>> I've always agreed that breakers can be useful, but not because they
>> can be reset after they automatically trip.
>>
>> On both the military aircraft and passenger jets I've flown, the most
>> useful thing about circuit breakers was always:
>>
>> 1) the ability to manually trip them when smoke starts pouring out of
>> a system which is still powered (happened once to a colleague of
>> mine). 2) the ability to pull then reset non-tripped breakers,
>> usually under engineering guidance, to get a glitchy system to
>> restart itself.
>>
>> For 25 years in my experience, resetting an already tripped breaker
>> was discouraged or prohibited by SOPs in most circumstances, ground
>> or flight, until maintenance action was carried out. I'm not sure why
>> this concept should be a surprise to anyone.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279823#279823
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Duracells again... |
Take it back out of the trash. box it up and ship to directly to Duracel
l for a replacement. Several people have commented on this list that Dur
acell will replace damaged items when their cells leak.... Is this BS ?
You can put this myth to bed for all of us. If they really do replace s
tuff leaking cells damage then two things will happen.
1- They will replace all items damaged, fix their manufacturing process
and go on the be a premier battery seller.
2- They will go out of business for cramming crap down our throats.
Marketplace, and its side effects are a wonderful thing ya know.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Duracells again...
Yesterday, I was tinkering in my shop and when I attempted to use my ana
log volt meter, I found the needle would not swing across when I touched
the leads together to calibrate it. Actually, the needle moved about o
ne third of the way. As I hadn't changed the batteries in over a year I
took the back off and low and behold I found a huge mess. Three of the
four AA batteries had leaked all over the inside of the meter which eff
ectively destroyed it as the resulting corrosion ruined the battery cont
act terminals. I've used this meter (Amprobe) for more than 30 years an
d it has never failed me, but now it is now in the trash. Never again w
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Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Duracells again... |
At 07:03 1/3/2010, you wrote:
>Take it back out of the trash. box it up and ship to directly to
>Duracell for a replacement. Several people have commented on this
>list that Duracell will replace damaged items when their cells
>leak.... Is this BS ? You can put this myth to bed for all of
>us. If they really do replace stuff leaking cells damage then two
>things will happen.
Had a mouse with leaky Duracells in it, 'bout five years ago. Sent
it in. As it was no longer a current model, I was sent a check for
what they believed was it's replacement value. No hassle, other than
the entire event.
Ron Q.
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Duracells again... |
Good Morning Ben,
Just as a single data point, I jumped through the hoops a few months ago
and returned a four cell Maglite to Duracell following the procedures they
specified. Packaging it and sending as they required was not convenient or
cheap. However, a couple of months later, I received a check of a sufficient
amount to replace the four cell Maglite and cover the cost of shipping.
I would prefer to never have to do that, but it did work as represented.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 1/3/2010 9:24:07 A.M. Central Standard Time,
n801bh@NetZero.com writes:
Take it back out of the trash. box it up and ship to directly to Duracell
for a replacement. Several people have commented on this list that Duracell
will replace damaged items when their cells leak.... Is this BS ? You can
put this myth to bed for all of us. If they really do replace stuff leaking
cells damage then two things will happen.
1- They will replace all items damaged, fix their manufacturing process
and go on the be a premier battery seller.
2- They will go out of business for cramming crap down our throats.
Marketplace, and its side effects are a wonderful thing ya know.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Message 7
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Subject: | Questions about circuit protection |
1/3/2009
Hello Again Matthew Schumacher, You wrote:
1) "Are you saying that if I put the fuses under the panel where they aren't
accessible then my airplane will still meet 14 CFR 91.205 (c) and that I
won't need to carry spares?"
Yes. That is exactly what the regulation is saying. If the pilot does not
have access, while in flight, to the location of fuses installed in the
aircraft's electrical system then there is no 91.205 regulatory requirment
to carry any spare fuses.
2) "I would read "that are accessible to the pilot in flight" to mean that
the fuse panel is accessible to the pilot,......."
That is correct.
3) "..........not the fusees since who cares if you can get to the fuses if
you can't get to the panel."
Again correct. Your reasoning, and the reasoning of the regulation, is that
if you cannot get access to the location of the fuses installed in the
electrical system while in flight then there is no reason for the pilot to
carry, and have access to, spare fuses while in flight.
Now the wise pilot would carry some spare fuses, as well as some other spare
items or tools (which can be discussed at length), so that he may perform
some limited trouble shooting / repair work if needed on the ground at some
away from home location in order to get back to home base or some other
location where he might be able to effect a more permanent repair.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: If one is designing and manufacturing a 14 CFR Part 23 type certificated
aircraft the regulations / requirements for fuse location in the aircraft's
electrical system are found in
Part 23.1357 (d) which says:
"If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to
safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so located and
identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight."
But experimental amateur built aircraft are not required, per se, to comply
with 14 CFR Part 23.
If we build our experimental amateur built aircraft's electrical system in
accordance with the philosophy that things can fail and that we have a plan
B back up that will allow graceful degradation and continued safe flight to
an acceptable landing site then no fuse in our electrical system would be
"essential to safety in flight".
===================================================
Time: 11:09:21 AM PST US
From: Matthew Schumacher <schu@schu.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Questions about circuit protection
bakerocb@cox.net wrote:
> If you are thinking of replacing fuses in the air to trouble shoot and
> solve an electrical problem please think again. There are several
> disadvantages. Some are:
>
> 1) Your airplane's Operating Limitations (part of its airworthiness
> certificate) will require you to equip the aircraft in accordance with
> 14 CFR 91.205 if you fly at night or IFR.
>
> Paragraph 91.205 (c) (6) says: "One spare set of fuses, or three spare
> fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight."
>
> This means that, by regulation, if you design your airplane so that you
> have access to those fuse blocks in flight then you must also have
> available to you all those spare fuses while in flight. Do you want to
> create that burden / nuisance / danger?
Hold on, back the truck up. Are you saying that if I put the fuses
under the panel where they aren't accessible then my airplane will still
meet 14 CFR 91.205 (c) and that I won't need to carry spares?
I would read "that are accessible to the pilot in flight" to mean that
the fuse panel is accessible to the pilot, not the fusees since who
cares if you can get to the fuses if you can't get to the panel.
schu
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Duracells again... |
Deke,
The main reason I began using Durcell's long back is I could depend
upon them not to leak in all my test and expensive equipment, they
never leaked. This is why I raised the question if others were
experiencing similar problems with them leaking. In the last few
years I have observed an definite characteristic change of the
Duracell product.
I might expect a very old battery to leak a little if left for years,
but my experience with them is a definite change where their leaking
in short period and without being fully discharged. Thanks for
everyone's feedback, guess it's time for me to send a letter and some
leakers to P&G and see what their response is.
jerb
At 05:18 AM 1/3/2010, you wrote:
>Yesterday, I was tinkering in my shop and when I attempted to use my
>analog volt meter, I found the needle would not swing across when I
>touched the leads together to calibrate it. Actually, the needle
>moved about one third of the way. As I hadn't changed the batteries
>in over a year I took the back off and low and behold I found a huge
>mess. Three of the four AA batteries had leaked all over the inside
>of the meter which effectively destroyed it as the resulting
>corrosion ruined the battery contact terminals. I've used this
>meter (Amprobe) for more than 30 years and it has never failed me,
>but now it is now in the trash.
>Never again with Duracells. Never...
>Deke
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Adding an antenna to improve on the ground reception? |
Problem: On the ground at KAWO (non-towered airport) I can't get Seattle
Center (and my IFR clearance) because of my RV-8 belly-mounted comm
antenna. (In a high wing trainer, this is not a problem.) I have a bubble
canopy--can I add an antenna within my canopy to the existing belly antenna
with
a
combiner/splitter to my comm receiver and achieve better reception on the
ground without degrading my in the air reception/transmission? Ground
plane problem with this setup? I can't easily place another antenna on the
top
fuselage. Suggestions?
Don Schmiesing
I have an antenna on my RV-8 slider which works pretty well. It is on the number
2 comm.
I riveted an aluminum sheet to the aft end of the slider for a ground plane. The
cable
goes to the front of the slider. The front of the slider is about as far in front
of the
shoulder harness bracket when closed as it is in back of it when open, so a loop
from the
slider to the bracket works well. The whip goes through the canopy with a rubber
grommet.
I have some pictures but they won't get through the list.
Jim Bean
Message 10
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Subject: | Max Alternator Voltage ? |
We just returned from a 1.4 hour flight- @ 0'F conditions.
it some cranking on the ramps at both ends of the flight legs to get going.
Upon returning, I noticed 15.1 volts @ about 2-3 amps indicated.
Is this OK for a 60-A alternator?
What should be a max voltage under such circumstances before I have my EIS
gives me an alarm? [user programmable value in the Grand Rapids unit]
Thanks in advance,
John in the Glasiar
Deep peace of the Light of the World to you. --------
-------------------------
---------------- --A Gaelic Blessing
=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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Bob,
I didn't take it personally. But, I do hate bullies and "my way is the
only right way" types. And bullies can appear in print as well as in person.
I am not bashful about responding to what I perceive as bullying. The
people on this forum are intelligent, learned people. There are ways to
present one's ideas to the group without acting bullish.
I relish responding to bullies.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
>Jerry,
>All interesting information.
>But, your assumption is that you are the only safety conscious one
>on the forum and the rest of us are idiots. That simply is not the
>case. (If you doubt this comment, then refer to your comments below
>"I have a plan" and "overly complicated equipment and redundant
>backup systems, much of which you barely understand.")
>I wonder - why you think the rest of us are stupid?
<snip>
Gently my friend. Why do you take this as a
personal attack? This is a forum for the exchange
of ideas, crafting elegant design goals and the
perfection of recipes for success.
Please speak to ideas in the light of what I
cited above. There's no reason for or value
in pitching cabbages, tomatoes or rocks at
each other.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? |
At 14:09 1/3/2010, you wrote:
>We just returned from a 1.4 hour flight @ 0'F conditions.
>it some cranking on the ramps at both ends of the flight legs to get going.
>Upon returning, I noticed 15.1 volts @ about 2-3 amps indicated.
>
>Is this OK for a 60-A alternator?
>What should be a max voltage under such circumstances before I have
>my EIS gives me an alarm? [user programmable value in the Grand Rapids unit]
John,
You may want to consult your battery manufacturers' site for the ICAW
sheet and owners manual. In the TC world both Concorde and Gill have
recommended charge voltages for their different battery types
(flooded, AGM/VRGA) based on ambient temperatures.
This has been the topic of some lively discussions here on the list
before you could find with an archive search.
A chart in the Concorde manual suggests, for 0F/-18C a voltage of ~ 15.5 volts.
Ron Q.
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Adding an antenna to improve on the ground reception? |
Put one radio on the new antenna that points up.
Forget about the switch.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279954#279954
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? |
At 04:09 PM 1/3/2010, you wrote:
We just returned from a 1.4 hour flight @ 0'F conditions.
it some cranking on the ramps at both ends of the flight legs to get going.
Upon returning, I noticed 15.1 volts @ about 2-3 amps indicated.
Is this OK for a 60-A alternator?
We'd like to see it a tad lower but it's not a
crisis either. I ran an alternator in my GMC
van for years at 15.2 volts which didn't seem to
be particularly abusive of the battery either.
What should be a max voltage under such circumstances before I have
my EIS gives me an alarm? [user programmable value in the Grand Rapids unit]
Trip calibration points for most OV protection
systems is 16.2 +/-.2 volts.
Get a second opinion from another known good
voltmeter . . . a John Fluke instrument comes
to mind as one potential 'gold standard'.
If the bus is REALLY running that hot, it would
probably be a good idea to do something to
reduce it. What kind of regulator are you running?
Bob . . .
Message 15
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Subject: | =?us-ascii?Q?Question_about_16V_POLYFUSER_Radial_Leaded_Resettable_PTC_Av?= |
=?us-ascii?Q?ailable_at_Digi-Key?
I just noticed these at digikey web site as a new product..
Looks like one could use these instead of fuses or the traditional circuit
breakers (for the average range of protection)
But my question is do these trip the same as typical fuses ? I know they can
reset but would it work like a fuse for time to trip or protection of the
wire ?
Catalog page:
http://media.digikey.com/pdf/New%20Cat%20Page/101/Littelfuse/Polyfuse%20PTC%
20Reset%20Devices.pdf
Here is a link to the Data sheet
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/Littelfuse_PTC_16R.pdf
it looks like they are used in a max volts of 16v (good, my system runs at
13.8 volts)
and they have ones that range from: 2.5a to 14a
Price looks cheap
Light weight
Small in size
Other thoughts - comments - concerns ?
Thanks
Jeff
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? |
John,
A proper voltage regulator, whether mechanical or solid state, has
temperature compensation built in. The lower the ambient temperature
the higher the charging voltage allowed from the alternator.
Essentially, the colder the battery, the higher the charging voltage
must be to get the proper chemical reaction with in the battery. In
really hot weather, you will see the reverse; could see the charging
voltage drop to under 13 volts.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Quillin
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Max Alternator Voltage ?
At 14:09 1/3/2010, you wrote:
We just returned from a 1.4 hour flight @ 0'F conditions.
it some cranking on the ramps at both ends of the flight legs to get
going.
Upon returning, I noticed 15.1 volts @ about 2-3 amps indicated.
Is this OK for a 60-A alternator?
What should be a max voltage under such circumstances before I have
my EIS gives me an alarm? [user programmable value in the Grand Rapids
unit]
John,
You may want to consult your battery manufacturers' site for the ICAW
sheet and owners manual. In the TC world both Concorde and Gill have
recommended charge voltages for their different battery types (flooded,
AGM/VRGA) based on ambient temperatures.
This has been the topic of some lively discussions here on the list
before you could find with an archive search.
A chart in the Concorde manual suggests, for 0F/-18C a voltage of ~
15.5 volts.
Ron Q.
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Question about 16V POLYFUSER Radial Leaded Resettable |
PTC Available at Digi-Key
At 19:41 1/3/2010, you wrote:
>Looks like one could use these instead of fuses or the traditional
>circuit breakers (for the average range of protection)
>
>But my question is do these trip the same as typical fuses ? I know
>they can reset but would it work like a fuse for time to trip or
>protection of the wire ?
Are we sure we want a device that can reset itself?
Doesn't that pretty much violate the premise of not resetting a
tripped breaker?
http://www.littelfuse.com/design/literature/fuse-vs-ptc/resettable-ptcs.html
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