---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/03/10: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:24 AM - Duracells again... (fox5flyer) 2. 06:20 AM - Battery Bus Location (PaulR) 3. 06:52 AM - Re: Re: Simplicity and circuit protection (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 4. 07:05 AM - Re: Duracells again... (n801bh@netzero.com) 5. 07:45 AM - Re: Duracells again... (Ron Quillin) 6. 07:45 AM - Re: Duracells again... (BobsV35B@aol.com) 7. 08:34 AM - Questions about circuit protection () 8. 08:35 AM - Re: Duracells again... (jerb) 9. 01:43 PM - Re: Adding an antenna to improve on the ground reception? (jim-bean@att.net) 10. 02:12 PM - Max Alternator Voltage ? (John Markey) 11. 04:06 PM - Re: Response (speedy11@aol.com) 12. 04:39 PM - Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? (Ron Quillin) 13. 04:41 PM - Re: Adding an antenna to improve on the ground reception? (al38kit) 14. 07:41 PM - Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:42 PM - =?us-ascii?Q?Question_about_16V_POLYFUSER_Radial_Leaded_Resettable_PTC_Av?= =?us-ascii?Q?ailable_at_Digi-Key? (Jeffrey W. Skiba) 16. 08:31 PM - Re: Max Alternator Voltage ? (David LLoyd) 17. 08:31 PM - Re: Question about 16V POLYFUSER Radial Leaded Resettable PTC Available at Digi-Key (Ron Quillin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:17 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Duracells again... Yesterday, I was tinkering in my shop and when I attempted to use my analog volt meter, I found the needle would not swing across when I touched the leads together to calibrate it. Actually, the needle moved about one third of the way. As I hadn't changed the batteries in over a year I took the back off and low and behold I found a huge mess. Three of the four AA batteries had leaked all over the inside of the meter which effectively destroyed it as the resulting corrosion ruined the battery contact terminals. I've used this meter (Amprobe) for more than 30 years and it has never failed me, but now it is now in the trash. Never again with Duracells. Never... Deke ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:03 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Bus Location From: "PaulR" I'm working on locating items on the firewall and have a question on location of the alway hot battery bus. I know that there is a length limit on the wire powering this bus and with that in mind, it seems the ideal location for the fuse block is on the hot side of the firewall. Is this block and fuse combination okay to put on the hot side? Seems like it defeats the purpose of this bus if it's feeder line is fused and then put on the cool side of the firewall. Thanks -------- Paul Rose N417PR (res) RV-9A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279865#279865 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:58 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Simplicity and circuit protection I adopted that same thinking. The only pullable breakers I have are flaps and AP. I have the Safety Trim system that is supposed to limit/control runaway trim situations. Bill Watson - still building Tim Olson wrote: > > For some things that move control surfaces, I'd actually *insist* on > pullable breakers....like electric trim, electric flaps, the > Autopilot, and even electronic ignition. Those are things that > some day you may want to find a way to pull power on...and would > likely not even think about resetting them in most circumstances. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > do not archive > > > mmayfield wrote: >> >> >> I've always agreed that breakers can be useful, but not because they >> can be reset after they automatically trip. >> >> On both the military aircraft and passenger jets I've flown, the most >> useful thing about circuit breakers was always: >> >> 1) the ability to manually trip them when smoke starts pouring out of >> a system which is still powered (happened once to a colleague of >> mine). 2) the ability to pull then reset non-tripped breakers, >> usually under engineering guidance, to get a glitchy system to >> restart itself. >> >> For 25 years in my experience, resetting an already tripped breaker >> was discouraged or prohibited by SOPs in most circumstances, ground >> or flight, until maintenance action was carried out. I'm not sure why >> this concept should be a surprise to anyone. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279823#279823 >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:59 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Duracells again... Take it back out of the trash. box it up and ship to directly to Duracel l for a replacement. Several people have commented on this list that Dur acell will replace damaged items when their cells leak.... Is this BS ? You can put this myth to bed for all of us. If they really do replace s tuff leaking cells damage then two things will happen. 1- They will replace all items damaged, fix their manufacturing process and go on the be a premier battery seller. 2- They will go out of business for cramming crap down our throats. Marketplace, and its side effects are a wonderful thing ya know. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "fox5flyer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Duracells again... Yesterday, I was tinkering in my shop and when I attempted to use my ana log volt meter, I found the needle would not swing across when I touched the leads together to calibrate it. Actually, the needle moved about o ne third of the way. As I hadn't changed the batteries in over a year I took the back off and low and behold I found a huge mess. Three of the four AA batteries had leaked all over the inside of the meter which eff ectively destroyed it as the resulting corrosion ruined the battery cont act terminals. I've used this meter (Amprobe) for more than 30 years an d it has never failed me, but now it is now in the trash. Never again w ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ____________________________________________________________ Nutrition Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=0lwX9Pg_QJAVG1Q76-BgD gAAJ1GgTD6yWnN9nTOcXhzb7nn5AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASQ wAAAAA ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:39 AM PST US From: Ron Quillin Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Duracells again... At 07:03 1/3/2010, you wrote: >Take it back out of the trash. box it up and ship to directly to >Duracell for a replacement. Several people have commented on this >list that Duracell will replace damaged items when their cells >leak.... Is this BS ? You can put this myth to bed for all of >us. If they really do replace stuff leaking cells damage then two >things will happen. Had a mouse with leaky Duracells in it, 'bout five years ago. Sent it in. As it was no longer a current model, I was sent a check for what they believed was it's replacement value. No hassle, other than the entire event. Ron Q. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:49 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Duracells again... Good Morning Ben, Just as a single data point, I jumped through the hoops a few months ago and returned a four cell Maglite to Duracell following the procedures they specified. Packaging it and sending as they required was not convenient or cheap. However, a couple of months later, I received a check of a sufficient amount to replace the four cell Maglite and cover the cost of shipping. I would prefer to never have to do that, but it did work as represented. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 1/3/2010 9:24:07 A.M. Central Standard Time, n801bh@NetZero.com writes: Take it back out of the trash. box it up and ship to directly to Duracell for a replacement. Several people have commented on this list that Duracell will replace damaged items when their cells leak.... Is this BS ? You can put this myth to bed for all of us. If they really do replace stuff leaking cells damage then two things will happen. 1- They will replace all items damaged, fix their manufacturing process and go on the be a premier battery seller. 2- They will go out of business for cramming crap down our throats. Marketplace, and its side effects are a wonderful thing ya know. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:58 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Questions about circuit protection 1/3/2009 Hello Again Matthew Schumacher, You wrote: 1) "Are you saying that if I put the fuses under the panel where they aren't accessible then my airplane will still meet 14 CFR 91.205 (c) and that I won't need to carry spares?" Yes. That is exactly what the regulation is saying. If the pilot does not have access, while in flight, to the location of fuses installed in the aircraft's electrical system then there is no 91.205 regulatory requirment to carry any spare fuses. 2) "I would read "that are accessible to the pilot in flight" to mean that the fuse panel is accessible to the pilot,......." That is correct. 3) "..........not the fusees since who cares if you can get to the fuses if you can't get to the panel." Again correct. Your reasoning, and the reasoning of the regulation, is that if you cannot get access to the location of the fuses installed in the electrical system while in flight then there is no reason for the pilot to carry, and have access to, spare fuses while in flight. Now the wise pilot would carry some spare fuses, as well as some other spare items or tools (which can be discussed at length), so that he may perform some limited trouble shooting / repair work if needed on the ground at some away from home location in order to get back to home base or some other location where he might be able to effect a more permanent repair. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: If one is designing and manufacturing a 14 CFR Part 23 type certificated aircraft the regulations / requirements for fuse location in the aircraft's electrical system are found in Part 23.1357 (d) which says: "If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight." But experimental amateur built aircraft are not required, per se, to comply with 14 CFR Part 23. If we build our experimental amateur built aircraft's electrical system in accordance with the philosophy that things can fail and that we have a plan B back up that will allow graceful degradation and continued safe flight to an acceptable landing site then no fuse in our electrical system would be "essential to safety in flight". =================================================== Time: 11:09:21 AM PST US From: Matthew Schumacher Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Questions about circuit protection bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > If you are thinking of replacing fuses in the air to trouble shoot and > solve an electrical problem please think again. There are several > disadvantages. Some are: > > 1) Your airplane's Operating Limitations (part of its airworthiness > certificate) will require you to equip the aircraft in accordance with > 14 CFR 91.205 if you fly at night or IFR. > > Paragraph 91.205 (c) (6) says: "One spare set of fuses, or three spare > fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight." > > This means that, by regulation, if you design your airplane so that you > have access to those fuse blocks in flight then you must also have > available to you all those spare fuses while in flight. Do you want to > create that burden / nuisance / danger? Hold on, back the truck up. Are you saying that if I put the fuses under the panel where they aren't accessible then my airplane will still meet 14 CFR 91.205 (c) and that I won't need to carry spares? I would read "that are accessible to the pilot in flight" to mean that the fuse panel is accessible to the pilot, not the fusees since who cares if you can get to the fuses if you can't get to the panel. schu ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:36 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Duracells again... Deke, The main reason I began using Durcell's long back is I could depend upon them not to leak in all my test and expensive equipment, they never leaked. This is why I raised the question if others were experiencing similar problems with them leaking. In the last few years I have observed an definite characteristic change of the Duracell product. I might expect a very old battery to leak a little if left for years, but my experience with them is a definite change where their leaking in short period and without being fully discharged. Thanks for everyone's feedback, guess it's time for me to send a letter and some leakers to P&G and see what their response is. jerb At 05:18 AM 1/3/2010, you wrote: >Yesterday, I was tinkering in my shop and when I attempted to use my >analog volt meter, I found the needle would not swing across when I >touched the leads together to calibrate it. Actually, the needle >moved about one third of the way. As I hadn't changed the batteries >in over a year I took the back off and low and behold I found a huge >mess. Three of the four AA batteries had leaked all over the inside >of the meter which effectively destroyed it as the resulting >corrosion ruined the battery contact terminals. I've used this >meter (Amprobe) for more than 30 years and it has never failed me, >but now it is now in the trash. >Never again with Duracells. Never... >Deke > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:35 PM PST US From: jim-bean@att.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Adding an antenna to improve on the ground reception? Problem: On the ground at KAWO (non-towered airport) I can't get Seattle Center (and my IFR clearance) because of my RV-8 belly-mounted comm antenna. (In a high wing trainer, this is not a problem.) I have a bubble canopy--can I add an antenna within my canopy to the existing belly antenna with a combiner/splitter to my comm receiver and achieve better reception on the ground without degrading my in the air reception/transmission? Ground plane problem with this setup? I can't easily place another antenna on the top fuselage. Suggestions? Don Schmiesing I have an antenna on my RV-8 slider which works pretty well. It is on the number 2 comm. I riveted an aluminum sheet to the aft end of the slider for a ground plane. The cable goes to the front of the slider. The front of the slider is about as far in front of the shoulder harness bracket when closed as it is in back of it when open, so a loop from the slider to the bracket works well. The whip goes through the canopy with a rubber grommet. I have some pictures but they won't get through the list. Jim Bean ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:09 PM PST US From: John Markey Subject: AeroElectric-List: Max Alternator Voltage ? We just returned from a 1.4 hour flight- @ 0'F conditions. it some cranking on the ramps at both ends of the flight legs to get going. Upon returning, I noticed 15.1 volts @ about 2-3 amps indicated. Is this OK for a 60-A alternator? What should be a max voltage under such circumstances before I have my EIS gives me an alarm? [user programmable value in the Grand Rapids unit] Thanks in advance, John in the Glasiar Deep peace of the Light of the World to you. -------- ------------------------- ---------------- --A Gaelic Blessing =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:22 PM PST US From: speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Response Bob, I didn't take it personally. But, I do hate bullies and "my way is the only right way" types. And bullies can appear in print as well as in person. I am not bashful about responding to what I perceive as bullying. The people on this forum are intelligent, learned people. There are ways to present one's ideas to the group without acting bullish. I relish responding to bullies. Stan Sutterfield Do not archive >Jerry, >All interesting information. >But, your assumption is that you are the only safety conscious one >on the forum and the rest of us are idiots. That simply is not the >case. (If you doubt this comment, then refer to your comments below >"I have a plan" and "overly complicated equipment and redundant >backup systems, much of which you barely understand.") >I wonder - why you think the rest of us are stupid? Gently my friend. Why do you take this as a personal attack? This is a forum for the exchange of ideas, crafting elegant design goals and the perfection of recipes for success. Please speak to ideas in the light of what I cited above. There's no reason for or value in pitching cabbages, tomatoes or rocks at each other. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:32 PM PST US From: Ron Quillin Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Max Alternator Voltage ? At 14:09 1/3/2010, you wrote: >We just returned from a 1.4 hour flight @ 0'F conditions. >it some cranking on the ramps at both ends of the flight legs to get going. >Upon returning, I noticed 15.1 volts @ about 2-3 amps indicated. > >Is this OK for a 60-A alternator? >What should be a max voltage under such circumstances before I have >my EIS gives me an alarm? [user programmable value in the Grand Rapids unit] John, You may want to consult your battery manufacturers' site for the ICAW sheet and owners manual. In the TC world both Concorde and Gill have recommended charge voltages for their different battery types (flooded, AGM/VRGA) based on ambient temperatures. This has been the topic of some lively discussions here on the list before you could find with an archive search. A chart in the Concorde manual suggests, for 0F/-18C a voltage of ~ 15.5 volts. Ron Q. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:20 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Adding an antenna to improve on the ground reception? From: "al38kit" Put one radio on the new antenna that points up. Forget about the switch. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279954#279954 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Max Alternator Voltage ? At 04:09 PM 1/3/2010, you wrote: We just returned from a 1.4 hour flight @ 0'F conditions. it some cranking on the ramps at both ends of the flight legs to get going. Upon returning, I noticed 15.1 volts @ about 2-3 amps indicated. Is this OK for a 60-A alternator? We'd like to see it a tad lower but it's not a crisis either. I ran an alternator in my GMC van for years at 15.2 volts which didn't seem to be particularly abusive of the battery either. What should be a max voltage under such circumstances before I have my EIS gives me an alarm? [user programmable value in the Grand Rapids unit] Trip calibration points for most OV protection systems is 16.2 +/-.2 volts. Get a second opinion from another known good voltmeter . . . a John Fluke instrument comes to mind as one potential 'gold standard'. If the bus is REALLY running that hot, it would probably be a good idea to do something to reduce it. What kind of regulator are you running? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:49 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" Subject: AeroElectric-List: =?us-ascii?Q?Question_about_16V_POLYFUSER_Radial_Leaded_Resettable_PTC_Av?= =?us-ascii?Q?ailable_at_Digi-Key? I just noticed these at digikey web site as a new product.. Looks like one could use these instead of fuses or the traditional circuit breakers (for the average range of protection) But my question is do these trip the same as typical fuses ? I know they can reset but would it work like a fuse for time to trip or protection of the wire ? Catalog page: http://media.digikey.com/pdf/New%20Cat%20Page/101/Littelfuse/Polyfuse%20PTC% 20Reset%20Devices.pdf Here is a link to the Data sheet http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/Littelfuse_PTC_16R.pdf it looks like they are used in a max volts of 16v (good, my system runs at 13.8 volts) and they have ones that range from: 2.5a to 14a Price looks cheap Light weight Small in size Other thoughts - comments - concerns ? Thanks Jeff ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:53 PM PST US From: "David LLoyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Max Alternator Voltage ? John, A proper voltage regulator, whether mechanical or solid state, has temperature compensation built in. The lower the ambient temperature the higher the charging voltage allowed from the alternator. Essentially, the colder the battery, the higher the charging voltage must be to get the proper chemical reaction with in the battery. In really hot weather, you will see the reverse; could see the charging voltage drop to under 13 volts. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Quillin To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 4:37 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Max Alternator Voltage ? At 14:09 1/3/2010, you wrote: We just returned from a 1.4 hour flight @ 0'F conditions. it some cranking on the ramps at both ends of the flight legs to get going. Upon returning, I noticed 15.1 volts @ about 2-3 amps indicated. Is this OK for a 60-A alternator? What should be a max voltage under such circumstances before I have my EIS gives me an alarm? [user programmable value in the Grand Rapids unit] John, You may want to consult your battery manufacturers' site for the ICAW sheet and owners manual. In the TC world both Concorde and Gill have recommended charge voltages for their different battery types (flooded, AGM/VRGA) based on ambient temperatures. This has been the topic of some lively discussions here on the list before you could find with an archive search. A chart in the Concorde manual suggests, for 0F/-18C a voltage of ~ 15.5 volts. Ron Q. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:53 PM PST US From: Ron Quillin Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about 16V POLYFUSER Radial Leaded Resettable PTC Available at Digi-Key At 19:41 1/3/2010, you wrote: >Looks like one could use these instead of fuses or the traditional >circuit breakers (for the average range of protection) > >But my question is do these trip the same as typical fuses ? I know >they can reset but would it work like a fuse for time to trip or >protection of the wire ? Are we sure we want a device that can reset itself? Doesn't that pretty much violate the premise of not resetting a tripped breaker? http://www.littelfuse.com/design/literature/fuse-vs-ptc/resettable-ptcs.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.