---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/07/10: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:26 AM - Re: List decorum (Carlos Trigo) 2. 05:24 AM - Re: Z-14 Switch Combos (Ken) 3. 05:24 AM - Re: List decorum (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 4. 05:37 AM - Re: Z-14 Switch Combos (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:03 AM - Re: List decorum (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:10 AM - Re: Z-14 variations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:37 AM - Re: List decorum (Dan Brown) 8. 06:46 AM - Re: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protection (tomcostanza) 9. 06:53 AM - Re: List decorum (Carlos Trigo) 10. 06:53 AM - Re: List decorum (Carlos Trigo) 11. 07:37 AM - Reversible electric motors and CBs (ray) 12. 08:03 AM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protection (Jay Hyde) 14. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protectionRe: [AeroElectric-List] Questions aboutRe: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about[AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit (John Burnaby) 15. 09:17 AM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS) 16. 09:33 AM - XeVision DO-160E NOW Certified (XeVision) 17. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: Z-14 variations (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 18. 09:50 AM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (ray) 19. 10:15 AM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (Jay Hyde) 20. 11:08 AM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (Jim Wickert) 21. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protectionRe: [AeroElectric-List] Questions aboutRe: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about[AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit (Jay Hyde) 22. 11:29 AM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 11:36 AM - Re: Z-14 Switch Combos (Perry, Phil) 24. 11:43 AM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 12:29 PM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (Jay Hyde) 26. 01:20 PM - planning (Jesse Jenks) 27. 01:28 PM - Re: List decorum (mmayfield) 28. 01:47 PM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (Matt Prather) 29. 03:59 PM - Re: Z-14 Switch Combos (William Slaughter) 30. 09:24 PM - Re: Tachometer problems (geoff winter) 31. 11:13 PM - Re: Reversible electric motors and CBs (Jay Hyde) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:07 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum Ditto! Carlos _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: quarta-feira, 6 de Janeiro de 2010 22:04 Subject: AeroElectric-List: List decorum At 12:55 PM 1/6/2010, you wrote: P.S. You probably didn=12t read the part of my last comment (the only in which I didn=12t panic) when I said I built and fly one airplane with fuses, one airplane with circuit breakers, and the one I=12m currently finishing building have both. Don=12t loose your time, just hit the delete button May I suggest that you finish building your aircraft, using resettable circuit breakers, since this gives you a greater comfort level. Roger Gentlemen, this isn't about "superiority" of anything over anything else. It's about meeting design goals for what we hope will be a failure tolerant system understood by the pilot and sufficiently fitted to meet the missions for which the airplane is built. The pantry of electro-goodies that can be stirred into a host of recipes for success is huge. Just because any one of us has a preference over one ingredient vs. another should not be taken as an invitation to cast disparaging remarks. The mission for each of us on the List is to offer/acquire understanding of how each ingredient functions in particular situations . . . and not to suggest that anyone has made a poor choice EXCEPT where we perceive a risk for not achieving failure tolerance . . . even if the "preferred" system is heavier, costlier, perhaps more complex, or uses breakers. We have a number of folks putting Z-14 into two-place airplanes with missions that will never tax the system's ability to mitigate risk. At the same time, for each individual on the List who has expressed an interest in exploring the possibilities, there are many, Many, MANY more who are wiring their airplanes like a 1969 C-172. Are those folks at extra-ordinary risk for a bad day in the cockpit? No, a modern alternator, active notification of LV, modern RG battery and a purpose-driven battery maintenance program makes them 10x better off than we were in 1950 with generators and lead-acid slop-pots. The OBAM aviation community, indeed all of light aircraft GA is under incremental, relentless attack to simply go away. Our collective future is best served by helping every OBAM aircraft builder generate and meet design goals consistent with the best we know how to do . . . while accommodating their preferences. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:04 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 Switch Combos Phil Even better than a double pole switch might be staying with the SPST switch and wiring the light to actually show when the crossfeed contactor is activated. If you implement auto paralleling during cranking, in addition to showing when the switch is active, the light will then also confirm auto paralleling. If the engine ever cranks slowly, you will immediately know whether the crossfeed contactor is being commanded to close. Ken Perry, Phil wrote: > > Thanks Bob... > > I'll make it a DPDT and use the second pole for a nag-light indicating > the x-feed switch is closed. > > Great design. Thanks for saving us a bunch of work. > > Phil > > >> Hey Bob, >> >> It looks like the crossfeed switch doubles as a starter switch in your >> diagram, is that correct? > > Yes . . . it's spring loaded out of the start position. > It offers automatic closure of the cross-feed contactor > during start. > > >> I'm planning on going with a push button to start, so I'll probably >> modify the setup slightly. But just want to make sure I'm reading it >> correctly. > > Then the cross-feed switch can be SPST. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:24 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum May I suggest that you finish building your aircraft, using resettable circuit breakers, since this gives you a greater comfort level. Roger The pantry of electro-goodies that can be stirred into a host of recipes for success is huge. Just because any one of us has a preference over one ingredient vs. another should not be taken as an invitation to cast disparaging remarks. Bob . . . The above statement was NEVER said to "cast disparaging remarks". It was only to encourage that we stop the back and forth of the same statements, "beating the dead horse", and move on with our learning/teaching process. I honestly believe that if he feels more comfortable with circuit breakers, then he should install them! Roger ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 Switch Combos At 09:58 PM 1/6/2010, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob... > >I'll make it a DPDT and use the second pole for a nag-light indicating >the x-feed switch is closed. You can wire a lamp across the contactor coil to do that. Consider an LED indicator with resistors in BOTH leads located right at the contactor. This eliminates the need to fuse the wires. >Great design. Thanks for saving us a bunch of work. You're welcome. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum > >The above statement was NEVER said to "cast disparaging >remarks". It was only to encourage that we stop the back and forth >of the same statements, "beating the dead horse", and move on with >our learning/teaching process. I honestly believe that if he feels >more comfortable with circuit breakers, then he should install them! Which is exactly what he will do with or without anyone's encouragement. The "disparaging remark" reference went to someone's suggestions that perhaps he "shouldn't be a pilot". As for beating a dead horse . . . this is a classroom of 1800+ students and teachers at last count. We need to keep in mind that while conversations between individuals may have been discussed many times in the past, folks who read them today may have been on the List a short time. If we can't make the newbies feel welcome and well informed then we degrade into a club of elites that discusses only "new" topics. The delete button works the same way on everybody's computer and nobody is being forced to participate in any conversation. If anyone is weary of a review of old topics, they can certainly start a thread on any new topic of their choice. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-14 variations At 12:13 PM 1/6/2010, you wrote: > > >This fuse versus CB discussion raises this questions with me - >perhaps someone can clear it up. >Are any of the current/modern avionic boxes really depen >depending on the CB or fuse for their internal 'protection' of anything? I'm not aware of any supplier to the TC aircraft industry that ADMITS to such a philosophy in print. I seem to recall a company that offered some little whiz-bang . . . perhaps a digital Clock/OAT/Timer? I think they asked that their supply line be protected by a fuse of 1A max. Further, I've opened up "smoked" accessories where traces or internal components were burned as a consequence of some downstream fault. This kind of failure is often not repairable. Would the customer have been better served if the bus feeder were less robust? >I know many units specify a fuse/CB size and sometimes a wire size >but I just size the fuse to protect the wire and try to use a >limited number of adequate wire sizes. Greg suggested a one-size-fits-all approach to selection of feeder sizes in his proposed power distribution and control described in http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/response_1.pdf I think all his PTC's were 20A devices . . . what do you mean by "limited number of adequate wire sizes"? Generally MOST of your electronics will fuse at 5 or 7A You'll have a handful of larger branches like 10A for 100W landing and taxi lights. Maybe one 20A for a pitot heater. But I recommend that you not avoid tailoring the size of individual feeders to their respective tasks. >My understanding is that various units have various means of >protecting themselves from spikes, etc. And if any kind of failure >starts drawing more amps than the wire/fuse/cb can provide, pop goes >the external protection. One generally assumes that feeder protection at the bus has the highest risk of operating from a faulted wire someplace between the bus and the appliance. The next risk is generally limited to motor driven devices where some kind of failure inside the motor draws a hard-fault level of current. Beyond this, your fuses/breakers are going to run the lifetime of the airplane never being called upon to do their job. >So I'm thinking that if the radio fails, it fails and I use the backup radio. Yup. >If the wire leading to the radio shorts on rough edge or something, >the radio fails and I use the backup radio. Yup. >And since fuses are so cheap, I have a separate circuit for >practically every unit on the panel so there is a 1:1 ratio between >units and fuses. Good lick . . . >If multiple things fail, then it's an electrical system problem - >haven't worked out the details yet but I hope on my Z-14, I just >crossfeed to use the backup Alt/Batt system or otherwise go to the backups. Likelihood of multiple independent failures in systems during any single tank full of fuel is exceedingly rare. So yes, the design goal for electrical system design is to have no single failure take down so much bus structure that you loose so much equipment that the mission is at risk. Z-11 with the e-bus and a well maintained battery and a dual feed-path endurance bus was our first crack at that. This first step in the evolutionary process was VERY strong. When the vacuum pump pad opened up, Z-13/8 increased the continuous load one could support on the e-bus while holding all the battery in reserve for approach to landing. >And if it smokes, open the windows, make sure it stopped smoking or >hit a master until it does. Land ASAP. Certainly, smoke in the cockpit calls for killing the whole electrical system ASAP. Then bring up the e-bus (and SD-8 if you have it) and see if you can drop to the get-home mode. If smoke doesn't come back you're in business. If smoke comes back, turn everything off and get out the stuff in your flight bag . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf You DO plan to carry this kind of capability in the flight bag . . . right? With Z-14, smoke still calls for shutting down everything right now. Then bring up half of the system at a time. The cross-feed contactor would probably never be closed after a smoke- in-the-cockpit event. >What are the holes in this thinking? No 'holes'. Continue to think, rethink, and PLAN how you'll react to any single failure you can imagine. It's unlikely that you'll have more than one . . . With Z-14 you have LOTS of options. Experiments with how those options best play out should be part of a plan devised on the ground . . . not in flight. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:18 AM PST US From: Dan Brown Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum Quoting "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" : > "disparaging remark" reference went to > someone's suggestions that perhaps he > "shouldn't be a pilot". That would be me, and I'm sorry they were taken as disparaging. Having never met Mr. Trigo, I certainly have no grounds to question his abilities as a pilot. The questions he was posing, though, (which I took as hypothetical) sounded very panicky, and such a panicked reaction to losing only one radio doesn't seem consistent with good ADM. I was intending to address the hypothetical response he posed; I didn't (and don't) assume that he would actually respond that way. -- Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org "Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring." -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:27 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protection From: "tomcostanza" > I even have a light test button Jay, what if the light test button fails? -Tom -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280497#280497 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:01 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum No hard feelings, Don Let's proceed with our eternal learning process, listening to Bob and other good teachers on this List Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Brown > Sent: quinta-feira, 7 de Janeiro de 2010 14:28 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum > > > Quoting "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" : > > > "disparaging remark" reference went to > > someone's suggestions that perhaps he > > "shouldn't be a pilot". > > That would be me, and I'm sorry they were taken as disparaging. > Having never met Mr. Trigo, I certainly have no grounds to question > his abilities as a pilot. The questions he was posing, though, (which > I took as hypothetical) sounded very panicky, and such a panicked > reaction to losing only one radio doesn't seem consistent with good > ADM. I was intending to address the hypothetical response he posed; I > didn't (and don't) assume that he would actually respond that way. > > -- > Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org > "Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the > more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring." > -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:48 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum _____ From: Carlos Trigo [mailto:trigo@mail.telepac.pt] Sent: quinta-feira, 7 de Janeiro de 2010 14:52 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum No hard feelings, Dan Let's proceed with our eternal learning process, listening to Bob and other good teachers on this List Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Brown > Sent: quinta-feira, 7 de Janeiro de 2010 14:28 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: List decorum > > > Quoting "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" : > > > "disparaging remark" reference went to > > someone's suggestions that perhaps he > > "shouldn't be a pilot". > > That would be me, and I'm sorry they were taken as disparaging. > Having never met Mr. Trigo, I certainly have no grounds to question > his abilities as a pilot. The questions he was posing, though, (which > I took as hypothetical) sounded very panicky, and such a panicked > reaction to losing only one radio doesn't seem consistent with good > ADM. I was intending to address the hypothetical response he posed; I > didn't (and don't) assume that he would actually respond that way. > > -- > Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org > "Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the > more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring." > -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:09 AM PST US From: ray Subject: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs Just thinking, would there be any value in having CBs on reversible motors. I'm considering: flap motors; trim motors; gear motors; variable pitch electric propellers. Perhaps being able to move the motor in the other direction might have some value or trying again after a mistake like deploying at too high a speed or in a condition where ice might have caused an overload. I recognize the low probability of these things occurring but thought they deserved mentioning in the current discussion. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:45 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs At 09:21 AM 1/7/2010, you wrote: > >Just thinking, would there be any value in having CBs on reversible >motors. I'm considering: flap motors; trim motors; gear motors; >variable pitch electric propellers. Perhaps being able to move the >motor in the other direction might have some value or trying again >after a mistake like deploying at too high a speed or in a condition >where ice might have caused an overload. I recognize the low >probability of these things occurring but thought they deserved >mentioning in the current discussion. Careful my friend, you'll be accused of doing FMEA . . . it's addictive. What you've hypothesized is a potential for nuisance tripping the circuit protection in non-normal or extra-ordinary operations. My sense is that there are very few motors at risk for jamming due to environmental conditions. Flaps and trim surfaces are away from ice-accretion spots. Ice might gather close to the hub of a prop blade but those motors tend to be highly geared and capable of producing much more torque than is necessary to move the blades. I think virtually all OBAM aircraft with retractable gear use hydraulics where the motor is not subject to "overload" . . . pressure relief valves generally address that issue. Further, large demand devices like motor driven hydraulics are protected with very robust protection devices like current limiters. Extending flaps against cruise speed air-loads MIGHT be a case where you could pop a fuse . . . but loads on most flap systems start out low and ramp up as the flap extends into the wind. Behavior of the airplane during the first few degrees of extension would no doubt get the pilot's attention long before current demands by the motor put a fuse at risk. But one can always UP-size a fuse and feeder to the flap system. PM motors draw so much current in a stalled state that if you doubled the size of the fuse (very fast) to accommodate some perceived transient overload condition you would not put the motor at risk for other fault conditions. That brings up another thought. We know that unlike breakers, fuses are subject to "wearing" caused by short term operations at or just above the fuse's ratings. So if your flap system normally calls for a 5 or 7A breaker, you would be on solid ground for upsizing to 10A. The goal is to provide a solid, trip free source of power. PM motor inrush currents are spectacular. Breakers are much slower than fuses and are pure I(squared)*R sensors. Fuses can slowly degrade over time when hit repeatedly with transient "overloads". Good thoughts . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:46 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protection That's why you have a parachute... ;-) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tomcostanza Sent: 07 January 2010 04:45 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protection > I even have a light test button Jay, what if the light test button fails? -Tom -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280497#280497 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:34 AM PST US From: "John Burnaby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protectionRE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions aboutRE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about[AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit Jay, I am building my electrical system for an all-electric ship and I had concerns about wanting to know if any of my battery bus fuses had blown. I didn't want to be merrily flying along on my backup fuel pump or ignition without knowing it and making a concious decision to continue. I have LED indicators for my battery bus loads on a visible fuse panel, but they are at the far right of my cabin so I wanted a testable/resettable master flashing LED right in front of me. I posed the this goal to an electrowhizzie forum and got this design and commentary from a senior member. Hope it helps. John ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:32 AM PST US From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs I think virtually all OBAM aircraft with retractable gear use hydraulics where the motor is not subject to "overload" . . . pressure relief valves generally address that issue. Further, large demand devices like motor driven hydraulics are protected with very robust protection devices like current limiters. The Falco, which I am building, is one OBAM aircraft which uses a motor and jack screws to deploy the LG. There have been many complaints of the breaker popping when raising the gear. Some owners have set the limit switches so the gear does not retract fully, and finish the last little bit of retraction with the hand crank. I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in the retract mechanism, but have not seen a good fix. Roger ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:56 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: XeVision DO-160E NOW Certified From: "XeVision" We are now Certified (used a documented certified lab) for DO-160E testing standards. We exceeded the requirements by quite a margin. DO-160E includes a noise standard for both conducted and radiated emissions among other things. We had to do this testing for EuroCopter among others, their std was even stricter than DO-160E. We did both our 50 watt 12 and 24 VDC and our newer (1-year old) 75 watt 12 and 24VDC HID systems. So a total of 4 systems were passed. Regarding HID ballast output cables needing to be shielded. Our XeVision cables from Ballast to Bulb are shielded. In fact they are "double" shielded, both a foil and braided shield under the outer cable jacket (outer insulation layer). The cables also tie the bulb shielding (metal box around the igniter) and the ballast case all together. There is continuity in the shielding from the bulb (igniter box and metal parabolic reflector) to the ballast, not just the cable is shielded. We passed all 4 models (systems) on the first try because we had the test equipment "in house" to prove we were ready to ourselves before we went to the certified lab and spent the big bucks. We also received our Patent on Nov, 10, 2009 for our integrated Pulsing system warm-up for wigwag IP. Dan -------- LED still has a long way to go to compete with HID as a landing light. This is true in terms of total lumens and reach (distance). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280520#280520 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:15 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-14 variations Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 12:13 PM 1/6/2010, you wrote: > >> I know many units specify a fuse/CB size and sometimes a wire size >> but I just size the fuse to protect the wire and try to use a limited >> number of adequate wire sizes. > I think all his PTC's were 20A devices . . . what do > you mean by "limited number of adequate wire sizes"? I meant essentially what you are saying here. Going back to my diagram I see that in fact I have 2, 5, 10, and 15 amp circuits and appropriate wire sizes > > Beyond this, your fuses/breakers are going to run the > lifetime of the airplane never being called upon to > do their job. Yep, I've never experienced an electrical failure in a powered aircraft in 40 years of fun flying (I did smoke a glider's electrical system once). >> If multiple things fail, then it's an electrical system problem - >> haven't worked out the details yet but I hope on my Z-14, I just >> crossfeed to use the backup Alt/Batt system or otherwise go to the >> backups. I know the Z-14 is overkill. The peace of mind feature I'm after has little to do with failure tolerance and everything to do with having a battery available for running the panel for extended periods (or charging portable batteries, running lights or whatever) and a separate battery available for starts. I've found that the peace of mind to stay on the ground and do whatever I want for as long as I want, valuable in bad weather flying, especially when FBO facilities aren't available (e.g. stuck in New Orleans before the terminal was reestablished). There are many ways to achieve that but the symmetry and robustness of the Z-14 seduced me. >> >>> What are the holes in this thinking? >> No 'holes'. Continue to think, rethink, and >> PLAN how you'll react to any single failure >> you can imagine. It's unlikely that you'll >> have more than one . . . With Z-14 you have >> LOTS of options. Experiments with how those >> options best play out should be part of a >> plan devised on the ground . . . not in flight. Good advice, I plan to do that. > > Bob . . . Thanks as always. Bill ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:04 AM PST US From: ray Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs I always apply a probability to an adverse event, even if it is a WAG just to help keep my perspective. You're right, it can be addictive. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:21 AM 1/7/2010, you wrote: >> >> Just thinking, would there be any value in having CBs on reversible >> motors. I'm considering: flap motors; trim motors; gear motors; >> variable pitch electric propellers. Perhaps being able to move the >> motor in the other direction might have some value or trying again >> after a mistake like deploying at too high a speed or in a condition >> where ice might have caused an overload. I recognize the low >> probability of these things occurring but thought they deserved >> mentioning in the current discussion. > > Careful my friend, you'll be accused of doing > FMEA . . . it's addictive. > > What you've hypothesized is a potential for > nuisance tripping the circuit protection in > non-normal or extra-ordinary operations. > > My sense is that there are very few motors > at risk for jamming due to environmental > conditions. Flaps and trim surfaces are away > from ice-accretion spots. Ice might gather > close to the hub of a prop blade but those > motors tend to be highly geared and capable > of producing much more torque than is necessary > to move the blades. I think virtually all > OBAM aircraft with retractable gear use hydraulics > where the motor is not subject to "overload" . . . > pressure relief valves generally address that > issue. Further, large demand devices like > motor driven hydraulics are protected with very > robust protection devices like current limiters. > > Extending flaps against cruise speed air-loads > MIGHT be a case where you could pop a fuse . . . > but loads on most flap systems start out low > and ramp up as the flap extends into the > wind. Behavior of the airplane during the first > few degrees of extension would no doubt get > the pilot's attention long before current > demands by the motor put a fuse at risk. > > But one can always UP-size a fuse and feeder > to the flap system. PM motors draw so much > current in a stalled state that if you doubled > the size of the fuse (very fast) to accommodate > some perceived transient overload condition > you would not put the motor at risk for other > fault conditions. > > That brings up another thought. We know that > unlike breakers, fuses are subject to "wearing" > caused by short term operations at or just above > the fuse's ratings. So if your flap system normally > calls for a 5 or 7A breaker, you would be on > solid ground for upsizing to 10A. > > The goal is to provide a solid, trip free > source of power. PM motor inrush currents > are spectacular. Breakers are much slower > than fuses and are pure I(squared)*R sensors. > Fuses can slowly degrade over time when > hit repeatedly with transient "overloads". > > Good thoughts . . . > > Bob . . . > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:12 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs This is an area that I have used to 'placate' one of my clients whose aircraft I am building. He really wants to see breakers but I talked him around to fuses and non-inflight changeable ones at that... But, to get him to accept that I agreed that the hydraulic pump might 'overload' and hence you might want to reset that breaker, so we put in a breaker for that circuit and fuses for everything else. It's a perception thing, but here there was a good compromise. Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: 07 January 2010 07:11 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs I think virtually all OBAM aircraft with retractable gear use hydraulics where the motor is not subject to "overload" . . . pressure relief valves generally address that issue. Further, large demand devices like motor driven hydraulics are protected with very robust protection devices like current limiters. The Falco, which I am building, is one OBAM aircraft which uses a motor and jack screws to deploy the LG. There have been many complaints of the breaker popping when raising the gear. Some owners have set the limit switches so the gear does not retract fully, and finish the last little bit of retraction with the hand crank. I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in the retract mechanism, but have not seen a good fix. Roger ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:06 AM PST US From: "Jim Wickert" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs If you have visual access to your Fuse Block or Blocks, mine I have a light smoke plex cover indicator led show quite well, with the ATC/ATO fuses and the Led that lights when fuse is blown you can quite quickly determine, first something is of malfunction, two its XXXXXX and three where the fuse is to replace. Quite Quick and cost effective. On pre flight you can glance at the block or blocks in seconds determine there all functioning. All for $0.448 cents. You can get them from Wayteck, Digikey, Auto Zone ......etc. Something that gives visual and replace able with no extra wiring or circuit. This listing is from Wayteck. Just another thought. Take care. LED BLADE TYPE FUSE ATO/ATC Category: Circuit Protection Sub Category: Blade Fuses And Accessories Sub-Sub Category: ATO/ATC Fuses-Light When Blown Description: LED BLADE TYPE FUSE ATO/ATC 10 AMP RED (12 VOLTS) Selling U/M: EA Weight: 0.0032 Price: $0.4480 Min Order Qty: 10 Quantity Discounts: Quantity Price 100.00 0.3808 500.00 0.3360 For larger quantities then shown, contact Sales at quotes@waytekwire.com. Qty: Click here to view catalog. Comments: Jim Wickert Tel 920-467-0219 Cell 920-912-1014 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 12:10 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs This is an area that I have used to 'placate' one of my clients whose aircraft I am building. He really wants to see breakers but I talked him around to fuses and non-inflight changeable ones at that... But, to get him to accept that I agreed that the hydraulic pump might 'overload' and hence you might want to reset that breaker, so we put in a breaker for that circuit and fuses for everything else. It's a perception thing, but here there was a good compromise. Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: 07 January 2010 07:11 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs I think virtually all OBAM aircraft with retractable gear use hydraulics where the motor is not subject to "overload" . . . pressure relief valves generally address that issue. Further, large demand devices like motor driven hydraulics are protected with very robust protection devices like current limiters. The Falco, which I am building, is one OBAM aircraft which uses a motor and jack screws to deploy the LG. There have been many complaints of the breaker popping when raising the gear. Some owners have set the limit switches so the gear does not retract fully, and finish the last little bit of retraction with the hand crank. I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in the retract mechanism, but have not seen a good fix. Roger ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:05 AM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protectionRE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions aboutRE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about[AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit Hey there John, Thanks very much for this- pretty complex looking for a fuse checker! But I understand your requirements and they have merit I think. My fuse checker is very simple and does not give you an alarm when a fuse blows- but this I think you will figure out when something goes wrong- although if it is on a cct that feeds an essential item like an ECU, via diodes, you are right in that you may not know about a single fuse failure. Hmmmm. Thanks for the info and cct diagrams! Jay _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Burnaby Sent: 07 January 2010 07:01 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit protectionRE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions aboutRE: [AeroElectric-List] Questions about[AeroElectric-List] Questions about circuit Jay, I am building my electrical system for an all-electric ship and I had concerns about wanting to know if any of my battery bus fuses had blown. I didn't want to be merrily flying along on my backup fuel pump or ignition without knowing it and making a concious decision to continue. I have LED indicators for my battery bus loads on a visible fuse panel, but they are at the far right of my cabin so I wanted a testable/resettable master flashing LED right in front of me. I posed the this goal to an electrowhizzie forum and got this design and commentary from a senior member. Hope it helps. John ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:10 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs At 12:10 PM 1/7/2010, you wrote: > > >This is an area that I have used to 'placate' one of my clients whose >aircraft I am building. He really wants to see breakers but I talked him >around to fuses and non-inflight changeable ones at that... But, to get him >to accept that I agreed that the hydraulic pump might 'overload' and hence >you might want to reset that breaker, so we put in a breaker for that >circuit and fuses for everything else. It's a perception thing, but here >there was a good compromise. We wouldn't do that on a King Air . . . the motor supply circuit would be protected with a ROBUST fuse, i.e. a current limiter. Besides, how does he get the gear down if the motor craps? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:43 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 Switch Combos From: "Perry, Phil" I think I'll have to fuse them anyway. The wire run length from the contactor to the panel is pretty lengthy and I'd feel better about putting a fuse inline. What's the purpose of the resistors? Is that to encourage the electrons to flow through the coil instead of the LED? Phil -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com] Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 12:09 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 Switch Combos At 09:58 PM 1/6/2010, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob... > >I'll make it a DPDT and use the second pole for a nag-light indicating >the x-feed switch is closed. You can wire a lamp across the contactor coil to do that. Consider an LED indicator with resistors in BOTH leads located right at the contactor. This eliminates the need to fuse the wires. >Great design. Thanks for saving us a bunch of work. You're welcome. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs At 11:11 AM 1/7/2010, you wrote: I think virtually all OBAM aircraft with retractable gear use hydraulics where the motor is not subject to "overload" . . . pressure relief valves generally address that issue. Further, large demand devices like motor driven hydraulics are protected with very robust protection devices like current limiters. The Falco, which I am building, is one OBAM aircraft which uses a motor and jack screws to deploy the LG. There have been many complaints of the breaker popping when raising the gear. Some owners have set the limit switches so the gear does not retract fully, and finish the last little bit of retraction with the hand crank. I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in the retract mechanism, but have not seen a good fix. There IS a fix . . . but it's not common to the OBAM aircraft industry. Some years ago I participated in the development of a line of electro-mechanical landing gear actuators. They were controlled over a serial data line and needed only +28 and a communications line to hook up. These had micro- controllers driving brushless dc motors. As "smart" actuators, they knew when they were approaching limits and would slow down to a crawl . . . the stroke drove to hard mechanical limits in the gear mechanism. The microprocessor sensed the up-tick in current and shut the motor off. No limit switches needed. One of my clients has a line of 'smart actuators' based on a universal controller with only the motor, drive transistors, and actuator mechanical details tailored to the task. A few years ago, I built some fast electronic current limiters for a builder who wanted to use independent actuators at each wheel of a Lancair. They were not fast and the mechanisms could tolerate driving to hard stops without tearing up the gear train. The electronic current limiters prevented motor inrush and "limit" spikes. Don't know how that project worked out. Don't even recall now who was building it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:27 PM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs He used to fly King Airs.. :-) The gear comes down without power using a hydraulic release valve- which is why I say its perception thing- he knows that he has a manual backup but he wants a breaker or two on the panel; it's a compromise of sorts.. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 07 January 2010 09:24 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs At 12:10 PM 1/7/2010, you wrote: > > >This is an area that I have used to 'placate' one of my clients whose >aircraft I am building. He really wants to see breakers but I talked him >around to fuses and non-inflight changeable ones at that... But, to get him >to accept that I agreed that the hydraulic pump might 'overload' and hence >you might want to reset that breaker, so we put in a breaker for that >circuit and fuses for everything else. It's a perception thing, but here >there was a good compromise. We wouldn't do that on a King Air . . . the motor supply circuit would be protected with a ROBUST fuse, i.e. a current limiter. Besides, how does he get the gear down if the motor craps? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:45 PM PST US From: Jesse Jenks Subject: AeroElectric-List: planning From: jessejenks@hotmail.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 27 Msgs - 01/06/10 > Time: 10:17:27 AM PST US > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls=2C III" > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electrical System Planning > > > At 11:45 AM 1/6/2010=2C you wrote: > I'm planning to use Z-11 and have an occasional-IFR panel with a > Grmin 430 and Dynon EFIS. I'm still at the very basic planning phase. > > Do you plan to have vacuum driven instruments? > If not why not Z13/8? No=2C I won't have a vacuum pump. I will reconsider Z13/8=2C but I had deemed it overkill for my mostly VFR bushplane. I do want to have a "get home" IFR capability=2C but as one who has sp ent many hours inside clouds in well equipped airplanes and being scared occasionally=2C mostly by icing=2C I view a single engine piston airplane without anti-ice systems as a n ot-very-good IFR platform. Also I like your philosophy that using a properly maintained RG battery is the sim plest way to add reliability to the electrical system. I also have Slick mags=2C and with backup batteries in the EFIS and a handheld gps/radio=2C I don't see the electrical system as the most critical system for the guarantee of a safe landing. I am definitely willing to change my mind though. > > 1)With the P.P. alternator I will obviously not have the separate > voltage regulator=2C but do I still need the crowbar over voltage protect ion? > > Plane Power INCLUDES crowbar OV protection on their OBAM > aircraft alternators. Thank you. Sure enough=2C the schematic that came with my alternator sa ys right at the top=3B "12 volt 60 amp experimental alternator w/internal voltage regulator a nd over voltage protection". Do you think this system is as good as=2C not as good=2C or better tha n using an alternator with external regulator and OV protection? I think I remember you saying in the past that you tested the Plane Power alternator. > > 2)The Skytec starter has it's own contactor to engage the gear=2C and > apply power to the motor. According to Skytec=2C I don't need a > separate contactor for the starter if I use a 20+amp starter switch=2C > which I plan to do (toggle mag switches and separate starter switch) > Are there any cautions for not using a separate starter contactor? > > No. > > Bob . . . I like the simple "NO" answer=2C however now after doing some more read ing I have a couple more questions=3B I came across your Z-22=2C fix for run on starters with PM motors=2C wh ich the Skytec is. You suggest a relay to replace the contactor. Further Skytec suggests on their website that if wiring the starter without a seperate contactor=2C to put a diode at the start switch to lengthen service life of the switch. Thi s all leaves me a little confused. What is the main issue here=2C protecting the start switch=2C or preventing possible dam age to the starter or flywheel gears=2C or both=2C or something else? Should I use a diode or a relay=2C or both=2C or neithe r? And another question=3B I saw your link to the article below. I found th e philosophical discussion very interesting=2C I also noticed that in that article you reccomend a 70 or 80 amp fuse in the alternator B-lead which is different than the Z-figures where an ANL 60 curret limi ter is shown. Reading note 10 I see that the current limiter is a modern upgrade to the fuse or breaker =2C but is 60 amps still the reccomended rating (not 70 or 80)? Thanks. Have you read . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:44 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: List decorum From: "mmayfield" There are many ways to skin a cat, I think, and going one way or the other doesn't make anyone smarter than anyone else. The chances are that, if the system is designed well and installed well, anyone using either breakers or fuses will get a relatively long and hassle-free life out of it. Some want breakers, some want fuses. Tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to....... Just do it properly and don't keep resetting/replacing them when they pop or blow without figuring out why they did! ;) Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=280575#280575 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs From: "Matt Prather" I say give him a breaker which powers a switch driving a noise maker of some sort. Flip the switch up for the light and noise, down for none. Maybe a "ding alarm." Pull the breaker to disable. Label it "Retro Encabulator" with apologies to Rockwell Automation... Matt- do not archive > > > He used to fly King Airs.. :-) > The gear comes down without power using a hydraulic release valve- which > is > why I say its perception thing- he knows that he has a manual backup but > he > wants a breaker or two on the panel; it's a compromise of sorts.. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert > L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: 07 January 2010 09:24 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs > > > > At 12:10 PM 1/7/2010, you wrote: >> >> >> >>This is an area that I have used to 'placate' one of my clients whose >>aircraft I am building. He really wants to see breakers but I talked him >>around to fuses and non-inflight changeable ones at that... But, to get >> him >>to accept that I agreed that the hydraulic pump might 'overload' and >> hence >>you might want to reset that breaker, so we put in a breaker for that >>circuit and fuses for everything else. It's a perception thing, but here >>there was a good compromise. > > We wouldn't do that on a King Air . . . the motor > supply circuit would be protected with a ROBUST fuse, > i.e. a current limiter. > > Besides, how does he get the gear down if the motor > craps? > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:37 PM PST US From: "William Slaughter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 Switch Combos LED's run on about 2-3 volts. The resistors provide voltage drop. William -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:25 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 Switch Combos I think I'll have to fuse them anyway. The wire run length from the contactor to the panel is pretty lengthy and I'd feel better about putting a fuse inline. What's the purpose of the resistors? Is that to encourage the electrons to flow through the coil instead of the LED? Phil -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com] Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 12:09 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 Switch Combos At 09:58 PM 1/6/2010, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob... > >I'll make it a DPDT and use the second pole for a nag-light indicating >the x-feed switch is closed. You can wire a lamp across the contactor coil to do that. Consider an LED indicator with resistors in BOTH leads located right at the contactor. This eliminates the need to fuse the wires. >Great design. Thanks for saving us a bunch of work. You're welcome. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tachometer problems From: geoff winter Bob Thanks very much for that, I appreciate your time. I feared I wasn't looking at an easy fix. I think I'll revert to the old instrument and have a ponder. Best regards Geoff On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:33 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > Could anyone suggest some specific combination of capacitor/resistor/diode >> inline or parallel to the tacho I could try to smooth things out? Failed >> to get any help from VDO so any advice would be very much appreciated. >> > > It's a WAG. Without knowing how the input circuits > of the tachometer are crafted, then it's VERY difficult > to figure out what it doesn't like about the signal > provided by your magneto p-leads. The fact that > the reading "drops" suggests a low signal level > . . . hard to imagine on a p-lead! > > However, the VDO input signal conditioning may have > over-attenuated the incoming signal as a by-product > of their own design goals for signal conditioning. > > In this case, there's not much you can do outside > the tach short of building some sort of signal- > conditioning device to satisfy the tachometer's > demands. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:34 PM PST US From: "Jay Hyde" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs Actually, what you need is one of these.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86V_ICUCD4 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: 07 January 2010 11:37 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs I say give him a breaker which powers a switch driving a noise maker of some sort. Flip the switch up for the light and noise, down for none. Maybe a "ding alarm." Pull the breaker to disable. Label it "Retro Encabulator" with apologies to Rockwell Automation... Matt- do not archive > > > He used to fly King Airs.. :-) > The gear comes down without power using a hydraulic release valve- which > is > why I say its perception thing- he knows that he has a manual backup but > he > wants a breaker or two on the panel; it's a compromise of sorts.. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert > L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: 07 January 2010 09:24 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible electric motors and CBs > > > > At 12:10 PM 1/7/2010, you wrote: >> >> >> >>This is an area that I have used to 'placate' one of my clients whose >>aircraft I am building. He really wants to see breakers but I talked him >>around to fuses and non-inflight changeable ones at that... But, to get >> him >>to accept that I agreed that the hydraulic pump might 'overload' and >> hence >>you might want to reset that breaker, so we put in a breaker for that >>circuit and fuses for everything else. It's a perception thing, but here >>there was a good compromise. > > We wouldn't do that on a King Air . . . the motor > supply circuit would be protected with a ROBUST fuse, > i.e. a current limiter. > > Besides, how does he get the gear down if the motor > craps? > > Bob . . . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.