---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/20/10: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:03 AM - Encoder Certification () 2. 06:00 AM - Re: Encoder Certification (Bill Boyd) 3. 07:02 AM - Encoder Certification () 4. 09:08 AM - Re: Encoder Certification (Jon Finley) 5. 10:58 AM - Z-13/20 questions (jonlaury) 6. 11:09 AM - Silicone goo in IR alt. (jonlaury) 7. 11:48 AM - ONGOING DISCUSSION () 8. 12:55 PM - Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. (Richard Tasker) 9. 12:59 PM - Re: ONGOING DISCUSSION (ray) 10. 12:59 PM - Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. (Steve Thomas) 11. 02:06 PM - Re: ONGOING DISCUSSION (Richard Girard) 12. 02:24 PM - Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 02:37 PM - Re: Z-13/20 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:15 PM - Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. (jonlaury) 15. 06:23 PM - Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. (jonlaury) 16. 06:34 PM - Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. (Bob McCallum) 17. 07:02 PM - Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. (jonlaury) 18. 07:30 PM - Re: Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. (Bob McCallum) 19. 08:05 PM - Re: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification (wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au) 20. 08:59 PM - Re: Z-13/20 questions (jonlaury) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:29 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification 1/20/2010 Hello Steve Thomas, You write: "I am the manufacturer of the airplane." {Response} Nice try, but no cigar. In the eyes of the FAA you are not the manufacturer of a type certificated airplane (which title carrys many significant qualifications, approvals, and inspections), but instead the "fabicator and assembler" of an experimental amateur built airplane. The regulatory permission and description that allows our category of aircraft to exist does not use the word "manufactured". See here: " 14 CFR 21.191 Experimental certificates. Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes: (g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation." 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ========================================================= Time: 06:49:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification From: Steve Thomas OC, As I read the regs. you quote below, it sounds like I am qualified to perform the tests. > "(b) The tests required by paragraph (a) of this section must be conducted > by- > > (1) The manufacturer of the airplane, or helicopter, on which the tests > and inspections are to be performed; I am the manufacturer of the airplane. Steve Thomas ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification From: Bill Boyd OC, I'm pretty sure my experimental airworthiness certificate has a blank on it for "manufacturer." I've seen some builders put their last name there, while others put "Vans" or whatever. I'm not looking at my cert right now (it's in the plane), but I'm reasonably sure the box I'm referring to is not labeled "Fabricator." -Bill B On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 8:00 AM, wrote: > > 1/20/2010 > > Hello Steve Thomas, You write: "I am the manufacturer of the airplane." > > {Response} Nice try, but no cigar. > > In the eyes of the FAA you are not the manufacturer of a type certificated > airplane (which title carrys many significant qualifications, approvals, and > inspections), but instead the "fabicator and assembler" of an experimental > amateur built airplane. > > The regulatory permission and description that allows our category of > aircraft to exist does not use the word "manufactured". See here: > > " 14 CFR 21.191 Experimental certificates. Experimental certificates are > issued for the following purposes: > > (g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major > portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook > the construction project solely for their own education or recreation." > > 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and > understand knowledge." > > ========================================================= > > Time: 06:49:15 AM PST US > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification > From: Steve Thomas > > > OC, > > As I read the regs. you quote below, it sounds like I am qualified to > perform the > tests. > > "(b) The tests required by paragraph (a) of this section must be conducted >> by- >> >> (1) The manufacturer of the airplane, or helicopter, on which the tests >> and inspections >> > are to be performed; > > I am the manufacturer of the airplane. > > > Steve Thomas > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:30 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification 1/20/2010 Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more with your help? You write: 1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are huge expanses of this country where this is true." {Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam the wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the uncontrolled airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance. There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now. Can you please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area and confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt them. Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace and therefore is controlled. 2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)." {Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet of the surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b) (5) (i). See here: "(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder....... (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and....." 3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without it turned on." {Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with no transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL if within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled, as long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with. Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you have in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se? Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or not is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather the specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled airspace" is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 CFR paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a transponder or not. Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a set of low altitude IFR charts for the entire country. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes there is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled airspace) unless a special navigation effort was made. ================================================== Time: 07:10:22 PM PST US From: "Jon Finley" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification Bakerocb, Everything noted so far in this thread assumes controlled airspace. If I missed where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments. No doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right environment (controlled airspace). If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5). Additionally, 91.215 (c), does not apply as almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled. So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without it turned on. There are huge expanses of this country where this is true. If someone can prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing. Jon ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:18 AM PST US From: "Jon Finley" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification Bakerocb, SkyVector.com is an awesome resource. You can view any sectional or IFR chart in the US (maybe more, I haven't tried) with it and do some very neat trip planning. You are absolutely right, one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFR chart) to see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists. Said another way, one has to look at a sectional to see at what altitude the floor of Class E airspace exists. I admit that I took some liberty with my previous statement to make a point. Obviously we have plenty of Class E space here. The Class E airspace where I live (E98) starts at 1200' AGL (about 6,000' MSL). That is true for most of the northern half of the state except where an airport with an approach exists (the Class E floor extends to 700'/ground at those locations). There is quite a bit of area (many, many, many square miles) where Class E starts at 14,500' AGL and a few locations where it starts at 11,500' and 12,000'. With that in mind, I do not have a good guess at how much of my actual flying is in uncontrolled airspace (i.e. beneath the floor of Class E) but I would guess about 40%. When going x-country (i.e. hundreds of miles), a higher altitude is typical which places me in Class E. Most of my flying is recreational (to from breakfast, sightseeing, having fun) and is fairly low - I do get above 1200' AGL but also spend a lot of time below 1200' AGL. Here, it is possible/legal (due to the airspace) to pull the transponder (or leave it off) and fly to a repair shop (obviously depending on where the repair shop is..). Jon Finley N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom and dignity. It is the argument of tyrants and it is the creed of slaves" - William Pitt in the House of Commons > > 1/20/2010 > > Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more > with > your help? > > You write: > > 1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are > huge > expanses of this country where this is true." > > {Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam > the > wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the > uncontrolled > airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low > altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance. > > There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now. > Can you > please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area > and > confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt > them. > Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace > and > therefore is controlled. > > 2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that > folks > living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for > hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the > airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)." > > {Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet > of the > surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b) > (5) > (i). See here: > > "(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no > person > may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) > through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with > an > operable coded radar beacon transponder....... > > (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of > Columbia > at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 > feet > above the surface; and....." > > 3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or > without > it turned on." > > {Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with > no > transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL > if > within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled, > as > long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with. > > Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you > have > in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se? > > Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or > not > is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather > the > specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled > airspace" > is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 > CFR > paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a > transponder or not. > > Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a > set of > low altitude IFR charts for the entire country. > > 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and > understand knowledge." > > PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes > there > is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard > pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled > airspace) > unless a special navigation effort was made. > > ================================================== > > Time: 07:10:22 PM PST US > From: "Jon Finley" > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification > > Bakerocb, > > Everything noted so far in this thread assumes controlled airspace. If > I missed where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments. > No > doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right environment > (controlled airspace). > > If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that > folks > living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for > hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the > airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5). Additionally, 91.215 (c), > does > not > apply as almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled. > > So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or > without > it turned on. There are huge expanses of this country where this is > true. > > If someone can prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing. > > Jon ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:13 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/20 questions From: "jonlaury" I've decided that Z13/20 works best for my all electric ship and I have a couple of questions: For aesthetic and robustness reasons, I'm married to the Honeywell AML 34 15A switches. But they only come in DPST. So for the Ebus-Alt and Master Power switches, could I use one pole for the respective VR Bus terminal and one for the respective contactor? I see the reason for the DPDT switch in the drawing is to allow shutting down the respective alternator without disconnecting the respective bus from the remaining alternator. But couldn't that be accomplished by placing the Alt Field breaker between the DPST switch and the VR to use as a 'switch' to shutdown the offending alternator without opening the respective contactor? In the drawing, why is the VR bus circuit both fuselinked AND CB'd? Why fuselink the battery bus-Ebus wire if it's (*) 6" or less? Thanks, John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282517#282517 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:35 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Silicone goo in IR alt. From: "jonlaury" When I opened up the regulator of an IR alternator, the circuit board was submerged in a slime of silicone jelly. I blew most of it out with 100 psi air, but how do you get rid of the residue? I tried acetone with no effect. And even though I wiped off the area, I can still feel the slippery effects of the residue everytime I handle that part. I'm concerned about contaminating other parts of my plane and subsequent bonding problems for resin and/or paint. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282524#282524 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:48:55 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: ONGOING DISCUSSION 1/19/2010 Hello Jim, Good to hear from you. You ask: "Does the following item (a) possibly relieve one from compliance with the 24 calendar month criteria if the aircraft involved never operates under "IFR conditions" in controlled airspace?" >"14 CFR 91.411 (a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in >controlled airspace under IFR unless- > > (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure > system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude > reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with > appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;" {Response} Just avoiding all "IFR operations in controlled airspace" is not sufficient to relieve one of the 14 CFR required periodic transponder checks. Let's see if we can figure out why. 1) First, while operating in what airspace must one's aircraft be "........equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder......"? Paragraph 91.215 (b) answers that question: "91.215 (b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder .........." So if one avoids flying in any of the transponder required airspace as described in (b) (1) through (b) (5) then one does not need a transponder. But if one flys, even under VFR, in any of that described airspace then they must have an operable transponder installed. Note that the airspace below 10,000 feet MSL and within 2,500 feet of the surface is not transponder required airspace. See 91.215 (b) (5) (i).** 2) What kind of transponder must we part 91 pilots have to fly in that transponder required airspace? 91.215 (a) answers that question: "91.215 (a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S)." 3) Does that 91.215 (a) required installed transponder have to have any kind of a periodic test? 91.413 answers that question: "91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections. (a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and..............." 4) When are we required to operate the 91.215 (a) required transponder that has been tested as required by 91.413? Paragraph 91.215 (c) answers that question: "91.215 (c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC." 5) Note that the term IFR has not even come up yet in the questions and answers in 1, 2, 3, and 4 above. So what is the big deal about transponders and IFR controlled airspace? The big deal is the requirement in 91.411 of complying with Appendix E as well as Appendix F of Part 43 for a transponder used in IFR operations in controlled airspace. See here: "91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and inspections. (a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR unless- (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;" 6) So if we have an aircraft with an engine-driven electrical system how do we get out from under the 91.411 or 91.413 every two year transponder checks? We could: A) Never fly (VFRor IFR) within the 91.215 (b) transponder required airspace. Then you will not be be required to either have a transponder or have it checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installed, but it has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it. B) Fly only VFR within the 91.215 (b) permitted airspace -- below 10,000 feet MSL or within 2,500 feet above the surface. There you will not be be required to either have a transponder or have it checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installed, but it has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it. C) Fly IFR only in Class G uncontrolled airspace, if you can find some. There you will not be required to either have a transponder or have it checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installed, but it has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it. You don't even have to be in contact with ATC. I think that item C above is largely theoretical in nature. Supposedly the low altitude IFR charts show the uncontrolled Class G airspace below 14,500 MSL in brown. It has been quite awhile since I've flown out west where there was still some brown showing, but there wasn't much left. All airspace above 14,500MSL is Class E air space and therefore considered controlled. So you can see that it is possible to avoid the 14 CFR required periodic transponder checks, but not very practical unless maybe you are an ag pilot operating locally. Comments or questions? OC **PS: See 91.215 (b) (2). I note that KHWY is within 30 miles of KIAD which is listed in Appendix D, Section 1 to Part 91. Therefore airplanes operating out of KHWY are required to have operable transponders. =================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Mcculley" Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:12 PM Subject: ONGOING DISCUSSION > Hello, OC, > > Enjoyed meeting you and looking at your Experimental some months back when > I was at HEF for Craig Laporte's first flight of his Tailwind. > > I've been following the "Forum" discussions on Transponder required-checks > and have learned a lot from your well informed inputs. The following > portion of your current message caused me to wonder if I have been missing > something of significance in this arena. > > Does the following item (a) possibly relieve one from compliance with the > 24 calendar month criteria if the aircraft involved never operates under > "IFR conditions" in controlled airspace? > > > "(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled > airspace under IFR unless- > > (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure > system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude > reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with > appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;" > > Jim McCulley > TAILWIND at HWY > ==================================================================================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:19 PM PST US From: Richard Tasker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Silicone goo in IR alt. Essentially impossible. All you can do is make sure you do not handle the part and then touch anything else that may need paint or resin. I guess curiosity would prompt me to ask why you removed the silicone potting material since it was put there for a purpose? And why you are removing the regulator from an IR alternator in the first place? If your intention is to replace it with an external regulator, then just get rid of the part with the silicone residue on it - problem solved. If you plan to repackage the internal regulator externally, then do so now - problem solved. Dick Tasker jonlaury wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jonlaury" > > When I opened up the regulator of an IR alternator, the circuit board was submerged in a slime of silicone jelly. I blew most of it out with 100 psi air, but how do you get rid of the residue? I tried acetone with no effect. And even though I wiped off the area, I can still feel the slippery effects of the residue everytime I handle that part. I'm concerned about contaminating other parts of my plane and subsequent bonding problems for resin and/or paint. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282524#282524 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:27 PM PST US From: ray Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ONGOING DISCUSSION Q. Who can test and inspect to verify compliance with E and F of the chapter? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > > > 1/19/2010 > > Hello Jim, Good to hear from you. > > You ask: "Does the following item (a) possibly relieve one from compliance > with the 24 calendar month criteria if the aircraft involved never operates > under "IFR conditions" in controlled airspace?" > >> "14 CFR 91.411 (a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in >> controlled airspace under IFR unless- >> >> (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure >> system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude >> reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with >> appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;" > > {Response} Just avoiding all "IFR operations in controlled airspace" is > not sufficient > to relieve one of the 14 CFR required periodic transponder checks. Let's > see > if we can figure out why. > > 1) First, while operating in what airspace must one's aircraft be > "........equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder......"? > Paragraph 91.215 (b) answers that question: > > "91.215 (b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by > ATC, no > person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs > (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped > with > an operable coded radar beacon transponder .........." > > So if one avoids flying in any of the transponder required airspace as > described in (b) (1) through (b) (5) then one does not need a transponder. > But if one flys, even under VFR, in any of that described airspace then > they > must have an operable transponder installed. Note that the airspace below > 10,000 feet MSL and within 2,500 feet of the surface is not transponder > required airspace. See 91.215 (b) (5) (i).** > > 2) What kind of transponder must we part 91 pilots have to fly in that > transponder required airspace? 91.215 (a) answers that question: > > "91.215 (a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations > not > conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment > installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any > class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude > reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 > (Mode S)." > > 3) Does that 91.215 (a) required installed transponder have to have any > kind > of a periodic test? 91.413 answers that question: > > "91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections. > > (a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), > 121.345(c), or 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 > calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and > found > to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and..............." > > 4) When are we required to operate the 91.215 (a) required transponder that > has been tested as required by 91.413? Paragraph 91.215 (c) answers that > question: > > "91.215 (c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in > paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person > operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained > in accordance with 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, > including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate > code or as assigned by ATC." > > 5) Note that the term IFR has not even come up yet in the questions and > answers in 1, 2, 3, and 4 above. So what is the big deal about transponders > and IFR controlled airspace? > > The big deal is the requirement in 91.411 of complying with Appendix E as > well as Appendix F of Part 43 for a transponder used in IFR operations in > controlled airspace. See here: > > "91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and > inspections. > > (a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled > airspace > under IFR unless- > > (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system, > each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting > system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendices E > and F of part 43 of this chapter;" > > 6) So if we have an aircraft with an engine-driven electrical system how do > we get out from under the 91.411 or 91.413 every two year transponder > checks? We could: > > A) Never fly (VFRor IFR) within the 91.215 (b) transponder required > airspace. Then you will not be be required to either have a transponder or > have it checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installed, > but it has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it. > > B) Fly only VFR within the 91.215 (b) permitted airspace -- below 10,000 > feet MSL or within 2,500 feet above the surface. There you will not be be > required to either have a transponder or have it checked if you do have > one. > If you do have a transponder installed, but it has not been checked you are > forbidden from operating it. > > C) Fly IFR only in Class G uncontrolled airspace, if you can find some. > There you will not be required to either have a transponder or have it > checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installed, but it > has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it. You don't even > have to be in contact with ATC. > > I think that item C above is largely theoretical in nature. Supposedly the > low altitude IFR charts show the uncontrolled Class G airspace below 14,500 > MSL in brown. It has been quite awhile since I've flown out west where > there > was still some brown showing, but there wasn't much left. All airspace > above > 14,500MSL is Class E air space and therefore considered controlled. > > So you can see that it is possible to avoid the 14 CFR required periodic > transponder checks, but not very practical unless maybe you are an ag pilot > operating locally. > > Comments or questions? > > OC > > **PS: See 91.215 (b) (2). I note that KHWY is within 30 miles of KIAD which > is listed in Appendix D, Section 1 to Part 91. Therefore airplanes > operating > out of KHWY are required to have operable transponders. > > =================================================== > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Mcculley" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:12 PM > Subject: ONGOING DISCUSSION > > >> Hello, OC, >> >> Enjoyed meeting you and looking at your Experimental some months back >> when >> I was at HEF for Craig Laporte's first flight of his Tailwind. >> >> I've been following the "Forum" discussions on Transponder >> required-checks >> and have learned a lot from your well informed inputs. The following >> portion of your current message caused me to wonder if I have been >> missing >> something of significance in this arena. >> >> Does the following item (a) possibly relieve one from compliance with the >> 24 calendar month criteria if the aircraft involved never operates under >> "IFR conditions" in controlled airspace? >> >> >> "(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled >> airspace under IFR unless- >> >> (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure >> system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude >> reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with >> appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;" >> >> Jim McCulley >> TAILWIND at HWY >> ===================================================================================== >> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Silicone goo in IR alt. From: Steve Thomas Hey, John, how about something like this?: http://tinyurl.com/yhotqp4 Steve Thomas ________________________________________________________________________ On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:06 AM, jonlaury wrote: > > When I opened up the regulator of an IR alternator, the circuit board was submerged in a slime of silicone jelly. I blew most of it out with 100 psi air, but how do you get rid of the residue? I tried acetone with no effect. And even though I wiped off the area, I can still feel the slippery effects of the residue everytime I handle that part. I'm concerned about contaminating other parts of my plane and subsequent bonding problems for resin and/or paint. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ONGOING DISCUSSION From: Richard Girard Since I was out aviating in uncontrolled airspace this afternoon I took a look at my aircraft's certificate during preflight. In the box for manufacturer the FAA put N/A. In the box for builder, they put my name. My 2 cents in this learned and informative discussion. Thanks guys. Rick Girard On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 1:40 PM, wrote: > > > 1/19/2010 > > Hello Jim, Good to hear from you. > > You ask: "Does the following item (a) possibly relieve one from complianc e > with the 24 calendar month criteria if the aircraft involved never operat es > under "IFR conditions" in controlled airspace?" > > "14 CFR 91.411 (a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in >> controlled airspace under IFR unless- >> >> (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure >> system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude >> reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with >> appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;" >> > > {Response} Just avoiding all "IFR operations in controlled airspace" is n ot > sufficient > to relieve one of the 14 CFR required periodic transponder checks. Let's > see > if we can figure out why. > > 1) First, while operating in what airspace must one's aircraft be > "........equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder......"? > Paragraph 91.215 (b) answers that question: > > "91.215 (b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, > no > person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs > (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped > with > an operable coded radar beacon transponder .........." > > So if one avoids flying in any of the transponder required airspace as > described in (b) (1) through (b) (5) then one does not need a transponder .. > But if one flys, even under VFR, in any of that described airspace then > they > must have an operable transponder installed. Note that the airspace below > 10,000 feet MSL and within 2,500 feet of the surface is not transponder > required airspace. See 91.215 (b) (5) (i).** > > 2) What kind of transponder must we part 91 pilots have to fly in that > transponder required airspace? 91.215 (a) answers that question: > > "91.215 (a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations > not > conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipmen t > installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any > class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude > reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C11 2 > (Mode S)." > > 3) Does that 91.215 (a) required installed transponder have to have any > kind > of a periodic test? 91.413 answers that question: > > "91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections. > > (a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), > 121.345(c), or =A7135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 > calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and > found > to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and..............." > > 4) When are we required to operate the 91.215 (a) required transponder th at > has been tested as required by 91.413? Paragraph 91.215 (c) answers that > question: > > "91.215 (c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in > paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person > operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintaine d > in accordance with =A791.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, > including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropria te > code or as assigned by ATC." > > 5) Note that the term IFR has not even come up yet in the questions and > answers in 1, 2, 3, and 4 above. So what is the big deal about transponde rs > and IFR controlled airspace? > > The big deal is the requirement in 91.411 of complying with Appendix E as > well as Appendix F of Part 43 for a transponder used in IFR operations in > controlled airspace. See here: > > "91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and > inspections. > > (a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled > airspace > under IFR unless- > > (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system, > each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting > system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendices E > and F of part 43 of this chapter;" > > 6) So if we have an aircraft with an engine-driven electrical system how do > we get out from under the 91.411 or 91.413 every two year transponder > checks? We could: > > A) Never fly (VFRor IFR) within the 91.215 (b) transponder required > airspace. Then you will not be be required to either have a transponder o r > have it checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installe d, > but it has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it. > > B) Fly only VFR within the 91.215 (b) permitted airspace -- below 10,000 > feet MSL or within 2,500 feet above the surface. There you will not be be > required to either have a transponder or have it checked if you do have > one. > If you do have a transponder installed, but it has not been checked you a re > forbidden from operating it. > > C) Fly IFR only in Class G uncontrolled airspace, if you can find some. > There you will not be required to either have a transponder or have it > checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installed, but i t > has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it. You don't even > have to be in contact with ATC. > > I think that item C above is largely theoretical in nature. Supposedly th e > low altitude IFR charts show the uncontrolled Class G airspace below 14,5 00 > MSL in brown. It has been quite awhile since I've flown out west where > there > was still some brown showing, but there wasn't much left. All airspace > above > 14,500MSL is Class E air space and therefore considered controlled. > > So you can see that it is possible to avoid the 14 CFR required periodic > transponder checks, but not very practical unless maybe you are an ag pil ot > operating locally. > > Comments or questions? > > OC > > **PS: See 91.215 (b) (2). I note that KHWY is within 30 miles of KIAD whi ch > is listed in Appendix D, Section 1 to Part 91. Therefore airplanes > operating > out of KHWY are required to have operable transponders. > > ======================== == > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Mcculley" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:12 PM > Subject: ONGOING DISCUSSION > > > Hello, OC, >> >> Enjoyed meeting you and looking at your Experimental some months back wh en >> I was at HEF for Craig Laporte's first flight of his Tailwind. >> >> I've been following the "Forum" discussions on Transponder required-chec ks >> and have learned a lot from your well informed inputs. The following >> portion of your current message caused me to wonder if I have been missi ng >> something of significance in this arena. >> >> Does the following item (a) possibly relieve one from compliance with th e >> 24 calendar month criteria if the aircraft involved never operates under >> "IFR conditions" in controlled airspace? >> >> >> "(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled >> airspace under IFR unless- >> >> (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure >> system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude >> reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with >> appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;" >> >> Jim McCulley >> TAILWIND at HWY >> >> ======================== >> > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Silicone goo in IR alt. At 01:06 PM 1/20/2010, you wrote: > >When I opened up the regulator of an IR alternator, the circuit >board was submerged in a slime of silicone jelly. I blew most of it >out with 100 psi air, but how do you get rid of the residue? I tried >acetone with no effect. And even though I wiped off the area, I can >still feel the slippery effects of the residue everytime I handle >that part. I'm concerned about contaminating other parts of my plane >and subsequent bonding problems for resin and/or paint. That's a tough job . . . I think we had some super-solvents at HBC that would cut silicon oils. I'm going to be out there tomorrow close to the processes lab . . . I'll drop in and ask. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/20 questions At 12:53 PM 1/20/2010, you wrote: > >I've decided that Z13/20 works best for my all electric ship and I >have a couple of questions: > >For aesthetic and robustness reasons, I'm married to the Honeywell >AML 34 15A switches. But they only come in DPST. > >So for the Ebus-Alt and Master Power switches, could I use one pole >for the respective VR Bus terminal and one for the respective >contactor? I see the reason for the DPDT switch in the drawing is to >allow shutting down the respective alternator without disconnecting >the respective bus from the remaining alternator. But couldn't that >be accomplished by placing the Alt Field breaker between the DPST >switch and the VR to use as a 'switch' to shutdown the offending >alternator without opening the respective contactor? > >In the drawing, why is the VR bus circuit both fuselinked AND CB'd? >Why fuselink the battery bus-Ebus wire if it's (*) 6" or less? We've had a number of conversations about Z-13/20 since it was first conceived and published. About two years ago I confessed that it wasn't a good idea and pulled it from the suite of drawings offered on the website and the book. It's my recommendation you consider Z-13/8 as the lightest, simplest, and least expensive approach to a highly failure tolerant system for light aircraft. If you MUST go with the SD20 alternator, then some variant on full-up, dual systems with crossfeed is recommended. Switching philosophy is a personal choice. Suggestions made in the Z-figures are the product of 20+ years of sifting simple ideas to meet design goals. I'm not suggesting that the Z-figures are "golden", only that they satisfied the design goals. If your goal is to use the AML switches, you can add more switches and give up the convenience and operational safeguards offered by the two pole, progressive transfer devices . . . or have the AML operate relay(s) as needed to keep the functionality. Finally, as you've suggested, you can start shuffling things around . . . but it's no longer a Z-figure. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:28 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. From: "jonlaury" Dick, Thanks for your thoughts. I opened up the IR to cut all the circuits of the board away from external terminals so that I could convert it to a ER alternator. I'll have to look at how I might do the conversion without the OE plug and mounting points. I was following instructions for the conversion from an article that appeared in the Experimenter. The alternator in the pictures had an epoxy potted board instead of this nasty silicone surprise John. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282603#282603 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:28 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. From: "jonlaury" Steve, Thanks for that. The data sheet says it gets rid of silicone oils so should do the trick. Now the trick is to find it.javascript:emoticon(':D') John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282608#282608 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:24 PM PST US From: "Bob McCallum" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Silicone goo in IR alt. Jon; Possibly the last item on this page?? http://tinyurl.com/yjjtwus Silicone is resistant to most solvents. Another possibility is silicone polish remover, available from auto paint shop wholesalers. Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonlaury > Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 2:07 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Silicone goo in IR alt. > > > When I opened up the regulator of an IR alternator, the circuit board was submerged > in a slime of silicone jelly. I blew most of it out with 100 psi air, but how do you get > rid of the residue? I tried acetone with no effect. And even though I wiped off the > area, I can still feel the slippery effects of the residue everytime I handle that part. > I'm concerned about contaminating other parts of my plane and subsequent bonding > problems for resin and/or paint. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282524#282524 > > > > > > > > _- > =================================================== > ======= > _- > =================================================== > ======= > _- > =================================================== > ======= > _- > =================================================== > ======= > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:18 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. From: "jonlaury" Bob McC The PolySi product looks like it would do the job, but one gal. smallest size is a bit more than I need. The 3M Novec Degreaser product is available (who'd athunk) from Aircraft Spruce! in 12 oz aerosol, $19, and I have to place an order there soon. Thanks for the thought, John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282619#282619 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:16 PM PST US From: "Bob McCallum" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. John; The link I sent says it's available also in pints and quarts, but if you've found something at "Spruce" and you're placing an order anyway, then that's the way to go. Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonlaury > Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 10:01 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Silicone goo in IR alt. > > > Bob McC > > The PolySi product looks like it would do the job, but one gal. smallest size is a bit > more than I need. > > The 3M Novec Degreaser product is available (who'd athunk) from Aircraft Spruce! in > 12 oz aerosol, $19, and I have to place an order there soon. > > Thanks for the thought, > John ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:46 PM PST US From: wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification Folks, Using the term "controlled airspace" is a bit of a misnomer. Airspace is categorized as A, B, C, D, E, F and G. Only F and G are "uncontrolled", there is no F in the US, and very little G, outside Alaska. For those with a long memory, what is now E, in the US was once called "Controlled/VFR Exempt". In regular day to day flying, it is very hard to dodge E airspace in US, as it is most common airspace below below A. Generally, B,C and D are terminal/tower airspace. Below 10,000', for Part 91 operations, the requirement for a transponder relates to the transponder veil withing 30 miles of the airfields on which Class B is centered, or as otherwise noted/charted. In my opinion, as an individual, you can only satisfy the requirements for a Mode C encoder by having a TSO unit, with the necessary initial/recurrent testing. How?? do you establish the 95% probability performance otherwise required in Part 91, already mentioned, a simple test of an installation does not do that, it does not establish the in-service performance is maintained. Regards, Bill Hamilton > bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > > --> Avionics-List message posted by: > > 1/20/2010 > > Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more > with > your help? > > You write: > > 1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are > huge > expanses of this country where this is true." > > {Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam > the > wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the > uncontrolled > airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low > altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance. > > There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now. Can > you > please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area > and > confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt > them. > Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace > and > therefore is controlled. > > 2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that > folks > living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for > hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the > airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)." > > {Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet of > the > surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b) > (5) > (i). See here: > > "(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no > person > may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) > through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an > > operable coded radar beacon transponder....... > > (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of > Columbia > at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 > feet > above the surface; and....." > > 3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or > without > it turned on." > > {Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with > no > transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL > if > within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled, > as > long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with. > > Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you > have > in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se? > > Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or > not > is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather > the > specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled > airspace" > is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 > CFR > paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a > transponder or not. > > Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a > set of > low altitude IFR charts for the entire country. > > 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and > understand knowledge." > > PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes > there > is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard > pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled > airspace) > unless a special navigation effort was made. > > ================================================== > > Time: 07:10:22 PM PST US > From: "Jon Finley" > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification > > Bakerocb, > > Everything noted so far in this thread assumes controlled airspace. If > I missed where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments. > No > doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right environment > (controlled airspace). > > If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks > living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for > hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the > airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5). Additionally, 91.215 (c), > does > not > apply as almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled. > > So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without > it turned on. There are huge expanses of this country where this is > true. > > If someone can prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing. > > Jon > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/20 questions From: "jonlaury" Arrgh, Bob. After all my rumination to decide and you say "by the way that system sucks"? You're killing me!(':)') As you probably gathered from the Silicone Goo post, I already have the aux alternator. It's 40 amps, same basic unit as B&C. It's overkill but the penalty is just 1.5 #'s and I do need some of the capacity. I'm choosing Z-13 over Z-19 for 6#'s less weight and unlimited electrical endurance at the expense of marginally less reliability than 2 batteries. But I don't see an advantage to a cross-feed contactor in Z-13, or where it would go. It seems that Z-13 has everything that I would need. What did you have in mind? I still don't understand the thinking of having a fuselink and fuse/CB on the same circuit ala the battery bus to e bus run. Otherwise I feel that Z-13/8(40) and I will get along fine. John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=282651#282651 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.