---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/23/10: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:59 AM - Charting Uncontrolled Airspace () 2. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Battery Cranking Amps (earl_schroeder@juno.com) 3. 09:51 AM - Re: FW: Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace (Jesse Jenks) 4. 09:55 AM - Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace (bobsv35b@aol.com) 5. 10:26 AM - Re: New product announcement: TCW Technologies (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Battery Cranking Amps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:22 PM - Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace (mmayfield) 8. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace (bobsv35b@aol.com) 9. 08:36 PM - Re: Z-13/20 questions (user9253) 10. 10:04 PM - Re: Re: Encoder Certification (John Grosse) 11. 11:02 PM - Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace (mmayfield) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:37 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace 1/23/2010 Hello Jon Finley, I am sorry that your January 22, 2010 2:11 PM posting copied below has an emotional and rejecting tone to it. My postings in response to yours have in no way intended to be punitive or critical of you personally -- just educational for all involved. With that in mind please let me respond in detail to your posting copied below. You wrote: 1) "It is no wonder folks on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop." {Response} Yes, I was persistent regarding transponder requirements. I did this because some people were still posting using the wrong criteria and I did not want to let that erroneous information stand uncorrected. 2) "As an aside, do you work for the government??" {Response} My personal work for the U. S. government consisted of 36 years on active duty in the US Navy and US Marine Corps as both enlisted and officer fixing and flying airplanes and helicopters. I retired from that work in 1986. 3) "WE ALL GET IT!" {Response} Good, I hope that my postings had something to do with that. 4) "So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspace" cannot be shown?? That makes no sense." {Response} When the aviation chart makers were confronted with the problem of showing the lateral dimensions of that uncontrolled Class G airspace which goes from the surface all the way up to 14,500 feet MSL they realized that putting such information on a Sectional chart would result in unacceptable clutter. They came up with the solution of using brown shading for those areas on the low altitude IFR charts to show that information. 5) "Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this entire section worthless)." {Response} These are the accepted terms. They make it possible to write about those two different kinds of airspace without listing each individual identification letter each time the writer wants to refer to a kind of airspace. 6) "We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E airspace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL. You do not need an IFR chart to see this." {Response} This is correct, but you do need a low altitude IFR chart to show the lateral dimensions of the uncontrolled airspace shaded brown that goes from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL because that information is not depicted on a Sectional chart. See the response to item 4 above. One cannot get the total picture just by focusing on vertical dimensions and looking at a Sectional chart. 7) "Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it? Better still, do this research BEFORE responding." {Response} I have already done so. I am suggesting that you look at the actual charts involved, Albuquerque Sectional and the low altitude IFR chart for that area, so that you can see the brown shading for yourself. I made this suggestion because you did not appear to take my posted information as valid. 8) " I have given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and IFR chart in the USA." I did go to the Skyvector site as you suggested -- thank you. I Iooked at the sample charts that they would let me look at for no cost -- those samples, while not of the specific area of our interest, did confirm my posted information. Since I fly from an airport in Virginia I could not justify the expense of purchasing a current Albuquerque Sectional (my copy is outdated) and appropriate current low altitude IFR chart just to look at them myself when my goal was to have you look at them. A fellow EAA Chapter member has offered to give me a complete set of current low altitude IFR charts. When I get my hands on them I will let you know and ask for your mailing address so that I can mail you the appropriate low altitude IFR chart. I presume that you already have a current Albuquerque Sectional since you fly out of Los Lunas (E98). Please let me know if this plan is acceptable to you. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ==================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 2:11 PM Subject: RE: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace Bakerocb, Apparently I am a terrible glutten for punishment.. It is no wonder folks on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop. As an aside, do you work for the government?? 1. For some reason you seem to believe that nobody understands this (when is a transponder required). WE ALL GET IT! It is very simple (it has been said repeatedly, read CFR 91.215 (b)). 2.A. So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspace" cannot be shown?? That makes no sense. "Uncontrolled airspace" is everything that is NOT controlled. Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this entire section worthless). This part is getting really old.... On a sectional: Class B, C, and D indicate where the "controlled airspace" extends to the ground (and much more). The lowest floor of Class E is 700' AGL. The shaded magenta lines show where the floor of Class E changes from 700' AGL to 1,200' AGL. The shaded blue lines show where the floor of Class E changes from 1200' AGL to 14,500' AGL. The staggered blue lines (e.g. "----___---___-----___----") show where the floor of the Class E airspace is when this cannot be depicted by the shaded blue or magenta lines. These staggered blue lines either specify the floor of the Class E airspace or it is 14,500' MSL. Class G airspace exists UNDER Class E (at a minimum, possibly more, I'm not sure). 2.B. We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E airspace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL. You do not need an IFR chart to see this. Additionally, a low level IFR chart does NOT depict the areas in which the floor of the Class E is at a non-standard (14,500' MSL) altitude. This means that the pilot could THINK, because the chart is showing "white", that Class E exists to 1,200' AGL when it does not (rather, it may end at 12,500' AGL, for example). Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it? Better still, do this research BEFORE responding. I have given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and IFR chart in the USA. I'll even give you a tip - look at the two charts in the area around Gallup, NM (GUP). Jon ===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: bakerocb@cox.net Hello Jon, You wrote: 1) "Oh brother.." {Response} Hang in there for one more go around. This time we will restrict the discussion to just charting of uncontrolled airspace and leave transponders out of it since that subject seems to make some peoples' head hurt. 2) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFRchart) to see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists." and "RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm" {Response} Just looking at a Sectional chart alone and the web site diagram does not permit one to see where all true uncontrolled airspace exists. Here is why: A) The AIRPORT TRAFFIC AND AIRSPACE Legend portion of current Sectional charts has this wording in it: "Only the controlled and reserved airspace effective below 18,000 ft. MSL are shown on this chart." This means that the location of lateral areas of uncontrolled Class G airspace that go from the surface up to 14,500 feet can not be determined by looking at a Sectional chart. B) The AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND AIRSPACE INFORMATION on a current IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart has these wordings in it under AIRSPACE INFORMATION: "Open area (white) indicates controlled airspace (Class E); unless otherwise indicated." "All airspace 14,500' and above is controlled (Class E)" "Shaded area (brown) indicates uncontrolled airspace below 14,500' (Class G)" So one needs both Sectional and IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts to completely determine where all uncontrolled Class G airspace is located. The Sectional chart will tell one where the controlled Class E airspace exists both laterally by an outline and vertically by either magenta or blue shading, but won't tell one where the the lateral dimensions of uncontrolled Class G airspace are. The IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart, by brown shading, will show one where uncontrolled Class G airspace exists laterally from the surface up to 14,500. Why don't you get an IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart for some areas out west where there is some brown shading, check it out, and let us know what you find. Our IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts back east are all white between the navigation information. Thanks. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ================================================= From: "Jon Finley" Subject: RE: Encoder Certification Oh brother.. Apparently this discussion has went around and around enough times that what is being said no longer makes sense to anyone. Next subject please! Jon ======================================= Jon Finley wrote: RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm Jon ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:30 AM PST US From: "earl_schroeder@juno.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Cranking Amps Hi John, You wrote in part: Per your suggestion of using smaller batteries to make a lightweight Z14, I looked at the Odyssey PC 310. With two of them I'd have 620 amps for 5 seconds (wondering how many engine start trys I get). What am I overlooking? Check the size of the battery terminals. Some that I've tried were too small to accept the wire size required to carry starter current requirements. For instance, some would only accept a 6-32 size screw or a 1/4" push on tab. Earl ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:34 AM PST US From: Jesse Jenks Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: FW: RE: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace This discussion is good. It may not be the appropriate forum for it=2C but it's good anyway. We don't need to get angry though. One important point that was overlooked below is that class E can extend to the SURFACE around some airports (magenta dashed line) when weather is bel ow 1000' and 3 miles. These airports are non towered=2C and so there is a b ig potential gotcha for VFR pilots. This airspace is controlled because an instrument approach exists. It is illegal and unsafe to truck through this airspace (or takeoff or land) without a clearance (special VFR or IFR) when weather is below 1000 and 3. Also=2C check out runwayfinder.com That's my favorite site for quick flight planning. You can view the whole c ountry in sectional form=2C and plot your course on it. You can also see TF Rs and overlay all the weather advisories=2C and it's all FREE. Jesse Subject: AeroElectric-List: FW: RE: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace From: jon@finleyweb.net Oops=2C hit reply and it only went to Bob instead of the list.... -----Original Message----- From: jon@finleyweb.net Sent: Friday=2C January 22=2C 2010 12:11pm Subject: RE: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace Bakerocb=2C Apparently I am a terrible glutten for punishment=85. It is no wonder folk s on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop. As an aside=2C do you work for the government?? 1. For some reason you seem to believe that nobody understands this (when i s a transponder required). WE ALL GET IT! It is very simple (it has been s aid repeatedly=2C read CFR 91.215 (b)). 2.A. So=2C if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspa ce" cannot be shown?? That makes no sense. "Uncontrolled airspace" is ever ything that is NOT controlled. Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this entire section worthless). This part is getting really old.... On a sectional: Class B=2C C=2C and D indicate where the "controlled airspace" extends to t he ground (and much more). The lowest floor of Class E is 700' AGL. The shaded magenta lines show wher e the floor of Class E changes from 700' AGL to 1=2C200' AGL. The shaded bl ue lines show where the floor of Class E changes from 1200' AGL to 14=2C500 ' AGL. The staggered blue lines (e.g. "----___---___-----___----") show wh ere the floor of the Class E airspace is when this cannot be depicted by th e shaded blue or magenta lines. These staggered blue lines either specify t he floor of the Class E airspace or it is 14=2C500' MSL. Class G airspace exists UNDER Class E (at a minimum=2C possibly more=2C I'm not sure). 2.B. We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E airs pace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL. You do not need an IFR chart to see this. Additionally=2C a low level IFR chart does NOT depict the areas in which th e floor of the Class E is at a non-standard (14=2C500' MSL) altitude. This means that the pilot could THINK=2C because the chart is showing "white"=2C that Class E exists to 1=2C200' AGL when it does not (rather=2C it may end at 12=2C500' AGL=2C for example). Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it? Better still =2C do this research BEFORE responding. I have given you the resource (Sky vector.com) to see any sectional and IFR chart in the USA. I'll even give you a tip - look at the two charts in the area around Gallup=2C NM (GUP). Jon -----Original Message----- From: bakerocb@cox.net Hello Jon=2C You wrote: 1) "Oh brother.." {Response} Hang in there for one more go around. This time we will restrict the discussion to just charting of uncontrolled airspace and leave transponders out of it since that subject seems to make some peoples' head hurt. 2) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFRchart) t o see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists." and "RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm" {Response} Just looking at a Sectional chart alone and the web site diagram does not permit one to see where all true uncontrolled airspace exists. Her e is why: A) The AIRPORT TRAFFIC AND AIRSPACE Legend portion of current Sectional charts has this wording in it: "Only the controlled and reserved airspace effective below 18=2C000 ft. MSL are shown on this chart." This means that the location of lateral areas of uncontrolled Class G airspace that go from the surface up to 14=2C500 feet can not be determined by looking at a Sectional chart. B) The AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND AIRSPACE INFORMATION on a current IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart has these wordings in it under AIRSPACE INFORMATION: "Open area (white) indicates controlled airspace (Class E)=3B unless otherw ise indicated." "All airspace 14=2C500' and above is controlled (Class E)" "Shaded area (brown) indicates uncontrolled airspace below 14=2C500' (Class G)" So one needs both Sectional and IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts to completely determine where all uncontrolled Class G airspace is located. The Sectional chart will tell one where the controlled Class E airspace exists both laterally by an outline and vertically by either magenta or blu e shading=2C but won't tell one where the the lateral dimensions of uncontrol led Class G airspace are. The IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart=2C by brown shading=2C will show one whe re uncontrolled Class G airspace exists laterally from the surface up to 14=2C500. Why don't you get an IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart for some areas out west where there is some brown shading=2C check it out=2C and let us know what y ou find. Our IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts back east are all white between the navigation information. Thanks. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ======================== From: "Jon Finley" Subject: RE: Encoder Certification Oh brother.. Apparently this discussion has went around and around enough times that wha t is being said no longer makes sense to anyone. Next subject please! Jon ============== Jon Finley wrote: RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm Jon _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:51 AM PST US From: bobsv35b@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace Good Morning OC, I, for one admire your tenacity and am glad you are helping to educate the rest of us. However, I do NOT see where controlled and uncontrolled airspace is pertinent to the discussion. As I understood the question, he wanted to know where a transponder was required. A transponder is NOT required for VFR flight in the vast majority of controlled airspace. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove. IL Stearman N3977A Never an officer, just a Corporal, USMC. In a message dated 1/23/2010 9:00:31 A.M. Central Standard Time, bakerocb@cox.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: 1/23/2010 Hello Jon Finley, I am sorry that your January 22, 2010 2:11 PM posting copied below has an emotional and rejecting tone to it. My postings in response to yours have in no way intended to be punitive or critical of you personally -- just educational for all involved. With that in mind please let me respond in detail to your posting copied below. You wrote: 1) "It is no wonder folks on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop." {Response} Yes, I was persistent regarding transponder requirements. I did this because some people were still posting using the wrong criteria and I did not want to let that erroneous information stand uncorrected. 2) "As an aside, do you work for the government??" {Response} My personal work for the U. S. government consisted of 36 years on active duty in the US Navy and US Marine Corps as both enlisted and officer fixing and flying airplanes and helicopters. I retired from that work in 1986. 3) "WE ALL GET IT!" {Response} Good, I hope that my postings had something to do with that. 4) "So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspace" cannot be shown?? That makes no sense." {Response} When the aviation chart makers were confronted with the problem of showing the lateral dimensions of that uncontrolled Class G airspace which goes from the surface all the way up to 14,500 feet MSL they realized that putting such information on a Sectional chart would result in unacceptable clutter. They came up with the solution of using brown shading for those areas on the low altitude IFR charts to show that information. 5) "Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this entire section worthless)." {Response} These are the accepted terms. They make it possible to write about those two different kinds of airspace without listing each individual identification letter each time the writer wants to refer to a kind of airspace. 6) "We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E airspace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL. You do not need an IFR chart to see this." {Response} This is correct, but you do need a low altitude IFR chart to show the lateral dimensions of the uncontrolled airspace shaded brown that goes from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL because that information is not depicted on a Sectional chart. See the response to item 4 above. One cannot get the total picture just by focusing on vertical dimensions and looking at a Sectional chart. 7) "Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it? Better still, do this research BEFORE responding." {Response} I have already done so. I am suggesting that you look at the actual charts involved, Albuquerque Sectional and the low altitude IFR chart for that area, so that you can see the brown shading for yourself. I made this suggestion because you did not appear to take my posted information as valid. 8) " I have given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and IFR chart in the USA." I did go to the Skyvector site as you suggested -- thank you. I Iooked at the sample charts that they would let me look at for no cost -- those samples, while not of the specific area of our interest, did confirm my posted information. Since I fly from an airport in Virginia I could not justify the expense of purchasing a current Albuquerque Sectional (my copy is outdated) and appropriate current low altitude IFR chart just to look at them myself when my goal was to have you look at them. A fellow EAA Chapter member has offered to give me a complete set of current low altitude IFR charts. When I get my hands on them I will let you know and ask for your mailing address so that I can mail you the appropriate low altitude IFR chart. I presume that you already have a current Albuquerque Sectional since you fly out of Los Lunas (E98). Please let me know if this plan is acceptable to you. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ==================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 2:11 PM Subject: RE: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace Bakerocb, Apparently I am a terrible glutten for punishment.. It is no wonder folks on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop. As an aside, do you work for the government?? 1. For some reason you seem to believe that nobody understands this (when is a transponder required). WE ALL GET IT! It is very simple (it has been said repeatedly, read CFR 91.215 (b)). 2.A. So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspace" cannot be shown?? That makes no sense. "Uncontrolled airspace" is everything that is NOT controlled. Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this entire section worthless). This part is getting really old.... On a sectional: Class B, C, and D indicate where the "controlled airspace" extends to the ground (and much more). The lowest floor of Class E is 700' AGL. The shaded magenta lines show where the floor of Class E changes from 700' AGL to 1,200' AGL. The shaded blue lines show where the floor of Class E changes from 1200' AGL to 14,500' AGL. The staggered blue lines (e.g. "----___---___-----___----") show where the floor of the Class E airspace is when this cannot be depicted by the shaded blue or magenta lines. These staggered blue lines either specify the floor of the Class E airspace or it is 14,500' MSL. Class G airspace exists UNDER Class E (at a minimum, possibly more, I'm not sure). 2.B. We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E airspace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL. You do not need an IFR chart to see this. Additionally, a low level IFR chart does NOT depict the areas in which the floor of the Class E is at a non-standard (14,500' MSL) altitude. This means that the pilot could THINK, because the chart is showing "white", that Class E exists to 1,200' AGL when it does not (rather, it may end at 12,500' AGL, for example). Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it? Better still, do this research BEFORE responding. I have given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and IFR chart in the USA. I'll even give you a tip - look at the two charts in the area around Gallup, NM (GUP). Jon ===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: bakerocb@cox.net Hello Jon, You wrote: 1) "Oh brother.." {Response} Hang in there for one more go around. This time we will restrict the discussion to just charting of uncontrolled airspace and leave transponders out of it since that subject seems to make some peoples' head hurt. 2) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFRchart) to see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists." and "RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm" {Response} Just looking at a Sectional chart alone and the web site diagram does not permit one to see where all true uncontrolled airspace exists. Here is why: A) The AIRPORT TRAFFIC AND AIRSPACE Legend portion of current Sectional charts has this wording in it: "Only the controlled and reserved airspace effective below 18,000 ft. MSL are shown on this chart." This means that the location of lateral areas of uncontrolled Class G airspace that go from the surface up to 14,500 feet can not be determined by looking at a Sectional chart. B) The AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND AIRSPACE INFORMATION on a current IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart has these wordings in it under AIRSPACE INFORMATION: "Open area (white) indicates controlled airspace (Class E); unless otherwise indicated." "All airspace 14,500' and above is controlled (Class E)" "Shaded area (brown) indicates uncontrolled airspace below 14,500' (Class G)" So one needs both Sectional and IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts to completely determine where all uncontrolled Class G airspace is located. The Sectional chart will tell one where the controlled Class E airspace exists both laterally by an outline and vertically by either magenta or blue shading, but won't tell one where the the lateral dimensions of uncontrolled Class G airspace are. The IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart, by brown shading, will show one where uncontrolled Class G airspace exists laterally from the surface up to 14,500. Why don't you get an IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart for some areas out west where there is some brown shading, check it out, and let us know what you find. Our IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts back east are all white between the navigation information. Thanks. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ================================================= From: "Jon Finley" Subject: RE: Encoder Certification Oh brother.. Apparently this discussion has went around and around enough times that what is being said no longer makes sense to anyone. Next subject please! Jon ======================================= Jon Finley wrote: RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm Jon ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New product announcement: TCW Technologies At 05:15 PM 1/22/2010, you wrote: >Fellow RV builders, >TCW Technologies, is pleased to introduce our newest product, >Integrated Back-up Battery System (IBBS). >IBBS is a complete back-up battery solution for powering critical >electronics such as EFIS, GPS, Autopilots and Engine monitors. The >IBBS product combines a rechargeable ni-mh battery, a smart charger >circuit and the transfer switch in a single enclosure that is easy >to install and only 1/2 the weight of a comparable lead acid battery. > >The IBBS provides about 1 hour of back-up endurance for typical EFIS >and GPS systems; additionally, it includes surge suppression and >allows systems to operational before and during engine cranking. > >The IBBS system is very easy to install and eliminates other field >installed components such as transfer contactors and diodes. > >The IBBS product has been tested by Garmin for use with their G3x >series of products. I'll suggest these products are most applicable to aircraft where the electrical system is not already failure tolerant. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Cranking Amps At 09:06 AM 1/23/2010, you wrote: > > >Hi John, >You wrote in part: >Per your suggestion of using smaller batteries to make a lightweight >Z14, I looked at the Odyssey PC 310. With two of them I'd have 620 >amps for 5 seconds (wondering how many engine start trys I get). > >What am I overlooking? > >Check the size of the battery terminals. Some that I've tried were >too small to accept the wire size required to carry starter current >requirements. For instance, some would only accept a 6-32 size >screw or a 1/4" push on tab. The 310 is pretty light even in pairs. Limited cranking ability due to high internal resistance. Even with two paralleled, total battery resistance about twice that of a 680. That doesn't mean it won't work for YOUR airplane and the environment in which you crank the engine. There ARE small batteries with low internal resitances. Bill and I tested a 10 a.h. Gates product about 15 years ago that gave us five, 10-second cranking cycles on a room temperature, hi-compression engine with 1 minute waits between attempts. So there is potential for a pair of light weights to step up to the task . . . the 310 may or may not be a good choice. You'll have to tell us. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace From: "mmayfield" bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote: > Good Morning OC, > A transponder is NOT required for VFR flight in the vast majority of controlled airspace. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob Apologies for butting my Aussie nose into this quite interesting discussion, but virtually all of our rules these days are based very closely on FAA regs for standardisation reasons, and they very clearly require the carriage and operation of a transponder in Class A, B, C, and E airspace (which is pretty much all controlled airspace), unless you're VFR and are not equipped with an electrical system capable of continuously powering one. You can get an exemption in certain circumstances at the discretion of individual ATC units, but these are not exactly handed out in Cracker Jack boxes. I appreciate FAA regs may differ, but for a common garden-variety VFR aircraft to not require a transponder in the majority of controlled airspace would seem highly unusual to me (as it kinda somewhat defeats the purpose of the airspace being actually controlled, ATC "control" applying to all aircraft regardless of their category). Just food for thought. No offence intended to anyone. Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283159#283159 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:18 PM PST US From: bobsv35b@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace Good Evening Mike, I have no knowledge at all concerning Australian regulations, but if you have access to a list of US regulations you will find that what I said is true. I hate to repeat it so often, but we do NOT need a transponder if we stay out of class A, B, and C airspace and do not fly above ten thousand feet MSL anywhere except when doing so would make us hit the terrain. In that case, we can go above ten thousand without a transponder as long as we stay within 2500 feet of the ground.(We do NOT need a transponder to fly in class E airspace) We do NOT need a transponder for VFR flight. As others (I think It was Kelly among others) have said, we can even fly IFR in the areas I listed as OK for VFR without a transponder. I am not recommending that as a normal operation, but that was not the question that had been asked. In uncontrolled airspace, of which there is very little in the lower forty-eight, we CAN fly IFR without a clearance. That is the only material difference between Controlled and Uncontrolled airspace. Controlled only refers to IFR operations. There are other rules that tell us what we need in the various categories of airspace. For example, class D requires that we establish communication and get a clearance to go in there, but we do NOT need a transponder to fly in the class D controlled airspace unless it is within a class B or C associated airspace ring that does require a transponder. The vast majority of airspace in which we USA GA pilots fly can legally be flown in without a transponder. As OC says, it is easiest to just read the pertinent portions of the FARs. It is all spelled out quite clearly in the regulations. and in fewer words than it took me! Any help at all? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove, IL USA Stearman N3977A In a message dated 1/23/2010 8:24:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, mmayfield@ozemail.com.au writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mmayfield" bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote: > Good Morning OC, > A transponder is NOT required for VFR flight in the vast majority of controlled airspace. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob Apologies for butting my Aussie nose into this quite interesting discussion, but virtually all of our rules these days are based very closely on FAA regs for standardisation reasons, and they very clearly require the carriage and operation of a transponder in Class A, B, C, and E airspace (which is pretty much all controlled airspace), unless you're VFR and are not equipped with an electrical system capable of continuously powering one. You can get an exemption in certain circumstances at the discretion of individual ATC units, but these are not exactly handed out in Cracker Jack boxes. I appreciate FAA regs may differ, but for a common garden-variety VFR aircraft to not require a transponder in the majority of controlled airspace would seem highly unusual to me (as it kinda somewhat defeats the purpose of the airspace being actually controlled, ATC "control" applying to all aircraft regardless of their category). Just food for thought. No offence intended to anyone. Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283159#283159 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:08 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/20 questions From: "user9253" http://kr.flyboybob.com/kr2/wd0004_files/wd0004_frames.htm Bob Lee, The fuel injector relay is missing a wire on the common contact. There are two current paths between Battery Bus 2 and the Endurance Bus, one through a diode and one through a 10 amp fuse. Since the second path through the fuse does not have a diode in it, current from Battery Bus 1 can flow to Battery Bus 2. The ground power relay coil needs to have a diode in series with it to protect against reverse polarity. What is the purpose of the 5 amp breaker with two wires going to the ground power plug? As drawn, the "Cross Contactor" is energized, but the indicator light is off. Did you intend that terminal 3 of the Cross Contactor Switch be grounded? I suggest that the top half of the "Cross Contactor" switch control the ground side of the fuel injector relay coil instead of the hot side, thus minimizing hot wires inside of the cockpit. Of course that change would require changing the indicator light circuit too. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283174#283174 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:57 PM PST US From: John Grosse Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Encoder Certification This whole discussion has me totally exhausted. I personally don't understand why you just wouldn't buy a transponder... unless, of course. you're smuggling drugs or are flying some WWI vintage rag bag with no electrical system. Then I get it, and why would you even care? John Grosse ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:22 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace From: "mmayfield" Gidday Bob. I understand the clearance/no clearance requirements with controlled and uncontrolled airspace and IFR vs VFR. That's quite standard, and it's the same over here. Just interesting about the transponder requirements. They are certainly different, and Australian homebuilders should take note if they're thinking of not installing one, even if they are going VFR everywhere! Cheers, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283192#283192 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.