---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/04/10: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:43 AM - Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:29 AM - Re: Starter and contactor wiring (user9253) 3. 08:15 AM - Re: cup holder (Eric M. Jones) 4. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Jae Chang) 5. 12:06 PM - Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Speedy11@aol.com) 6. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Jesse Jenks) 7. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Jesse Jenks) 8. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:56 PM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Jesse Jenks) 12. 08:56 PM - Re: Does anyone have a source for these specialized Adel clamps (keithmckinley) 13. 09:07 PM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (BobsV35B@aol.com) 14. 10:08 PM - Nice catalog with fuse blocks, connectors, etc... (Matthew Schumacher) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter and contactor wiring At 04:56 PM 2/3/2010, you wrote: Bob and/or others with help.. A couple of months ago there was some discussion about wiring a Skytec starter per Vans recommendations. I believe Bob recommended eliminating the jumper wire between the Starter B+ and 'S' terminal and connecting the 'S' terminal to the starter contactor "I" terminal. I am installing a Skytec 149-NL starter and the instructions say to remove this jumper wire when wiring for 24 volts and leave it in for 12 v operation. Does removing the jumper effect 12 volt operation? Also, I would like to add a 'starter engaged' warning light per Bobs' recommendation in the "connection" by wiring the "I" terminal of the starter contactor thru a 5amp fuse to the warning light. Any problem with doing both wiring alterations? You got me. Never heard of the 12/24 volt jumper option. If the starter will function when supplied with 24v and the "S" terminal left open, then there's something going on inside that I'm not aware of. Suggest you follow instructions and leave the jumper installed. Since these instructions appear to accommodate TC aircraft, they'll no doubt have external contactors as part of the original design. This means that for a 14v airplane, it wires just like the B&C configuration (jumper installed) depicted on the Z-figures. Of course, you can always add the starter engaged light on the "I" terminal of your external contactor. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring From: "user9253" Tom Packard, See: http://www.skytecair.com/Jumper101.htm Quoting from Sky Tec's website: " > Sky-Tec repurposed the S-Terminal functionality on NL model starters to serve as a means of switching the starter between 12V and 24V operation. Because of this, ALL NL STARTER INSTALLATIONS MUST BE WIRED ACCORDING TO THE CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT WIRING DIAGRAM BELOW - NO EXCEPTIONS! See wiring diagram: http://www.skytecair.com/images/NL%2012V%20Installation%20Wiring_1100.jpg Evidently the jumper changes the internal wiring to the motor. If operated on 12 volts without the jumper, something bad might happen. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=284834#284834 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:04 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: cup holder From: "Eric M. Jones" Do Not Archive A guy on Ebay sells these for $32/10 free shipping. Can't beat that. Find a few friends to share with. He's got lots. eBay item #120394358751 BLACK FOLDING ADJ. CUP HLDER 10 PACK Do Not Archive -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=284840#284840 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:27 AM PST US From: Jae Chang Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring This is great timing. I am confused, because Van's default wiring plans have you remove the jumper on the starter and wire this B11 wire separately from starter contactor to starter, which seems the same thing as leaving the jumper in place. picture link here to Van's wiring schematic: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fF4SlbjCoxWWDl_8bqtbHg?authkey=Gv1sRgCI7088GZlYCc2AE&feat=directlink Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks! Jae user9253 wrote: > > Tom Packard, > See: http://www.skytecair.com/Jumper101.htm > Quoting from Sky Tec's website: > " > >> Sky-Tec repurposed the S-Terminal functionality on NL model starters to serve as a means of switching the starter between 12V and 24V operation. Because of this, ALL NL STARTER INSTALLATIONS MUST BE WIRED ACCORDING TO THE CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT WIRING DIAGRAM BELOW - NO EXCEPTIONS! >> > > See wiring diagram: http://www.skytecair.com/images/NL%2012V%20Installation%20Wiring_1100.jpg > Evidently the jumper changes the internal wiring to the motor. If operated on 12 volts without the jumper, something bad might happen. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=284834#284834 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:34 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Tom, For what it's worth, I'll tell you my story. I have an IO-390 with Skytec LS starter. The starter comes with a jumper wire installed which I understand jumps power over to engage the starter solenoid. The Skytec folks have a diagram on their web site showing how Van's recommends wiring the starter and said the Van's method is bogus (my words) and it would be foolish to wire it that way. I took their advice and did not wire it like Van's. I should have wired like Van's. Not long ago, during start, I had a run-on starter and had to disconnect the battery to disengage the starter. Long story short, I made a wiring error that, in the event of a stuck contactor or stuck starter solenoid, I could not remove power from the starter. I corrected that error and in the process I asked Bob's opinion and he recommended removing the jumper wire and wiring like Van's. So, now, the starter solenoid (S term) is powered from the I terminal on the contactor, a starter engaged light is powered from the contactor I terminal and I can now remove all power from the contactor in the event of a starter run-on. I did not put a fuse in the starter light wire from the contactor I terminal to the starter engaged light because it is only powered for a few seconds and releasing the starter button removes power from the S terminal and the wire. My setup is working fine now and I can check after each start to insure the starter engaged light is not on. Regards, Stan Sutterfield Bob and/or others with help.. A couple of months ago there was some discussion about wiring a Skytec starter per Vans recommendations. I believe Bob recommended eliminating the jumper wire between the Starter B+ and 'S' terminal and connecting the 'S' terminal to the starter contactor "I" terminal. I am installing a Skytec 149-NL starter and the instructions say to remove this jumper wire when wiring for 24 volts and leave it in for 12 v operation. Does removing the jumper effect 12 volt operation? Also, I would like to add a 'starter engaged' warning light per Bobs' recommendation in the "connection" by wiring the "I" terminal of the starter contactor thru a 5amp fuse to the warning light. Any problem with doing both wiring alterations? Thanks, Tom Packard ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:55:30 PM PST US From: Jesse Jenks Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring I'm curious if the "starter engaged light" actually tells you anything more than that you are pressing the starter button with your thumb=2C which you should hopefully know already? In other words would the light actually inf orm you of a starter stuck on after the engine is running? I had been considering weather a light on the panel is worth wile or not. Thanks. Jesse PS I will be wiring like Vans=2C without the jumper. From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Tom=2C For what it's worth=2C I'll tell you my story. I have an IO-390 with Skytec LS starter. The starter comes with a jumper wire installed which I understand jumps power over to engage the sta rter solenoid. The Skytec folks have a diagram on their web site showing how Van's recommends wiring the starter and said the Van's method is bogus (my words) and it would be foolish to wire it that way. I took their advice and did not wire it like Van's. I should have wired like Van's. Not long ago=2C during start=2C I had a run-on starter and had to disconnec t the battery to disengage the starter. Long story short=2C I made a wiring error that=2C in the event of a stuck contactor or stuck starter solenoid =2C I could not remove power from the starter. I corrected that error and in the process I asked Bob's opinion and he recommended removing the jumper wire a nd wiring like Van's. So=2C now=2C the starter solenoid (S term) is powered from the I terminal on the contactor=2C a starter engaged light is powered from the contactor I terminal and I can now remove all power from the contactor in the event of a starter run-on. I did not put a fuse in the starter light wire from the contactor I terminal to the starter engaged light because it is only powered for a few seconds and releasing the starter butt on removes power from the S terminal and the wire. My setup is working fine now and I can check after each start to insure the starter engaged lig ht is not on. Regards=2C Stan Sutterfield Bob and/or others with help.. A couple of months ago there was some discussion about wiring a Skytec starter per Vans recommendations. I believe Bob recommended eliminating the jumper wire between the Starter B+ and 'S' terminal and connecting the 'S' terminal to the starter contactor "I" terminal. I am installing a Skytec 149-NL starter and the instructions say to remove this jumper wire when wiring for 24 volts and leave it in for 12 v operation. Does removing the jumper effect 12 volt operation? Also=2C I would like to add a 'starter engaged' warning light per Bobs' recommendation in the "connection" by wiring the "I" terminal of the starter contactor thru a 5amp fuse to the warning light. Any problem with doing both wiring alterations? Thanks=2C Tom Packard _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:35 PM PST US From: Jesse Jenks Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Wouldn't it be better to wire the light to the inboard heavy stud on the st arter? That way if the light was on after you took your thumb off the butto n=2C you would know there is power at the actual starter=2C not just at the solenoid. From: jessejenks@hotmail.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring I'm curious if the "starter engaged light" actually tells you anything more than that you are pressing the starter button with your thumb=2C which you should hopefully know already? In other words would the light actually inf orm you of a starter stuck on after the engine is running? I had been considering weather a light on the panel is worth wile or not. Thanks. Jesse PS I will be wiring like Vans=2C without the jumper. From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Tom=2C For what it's worth=2C I'll tell you my story. I have an IO-390 with Skytec LS starter. The starter comes with a jumper wire installed which I understand jumps power over to engage the sta rter solenoid. The Skytec folks have a diagram on their web site showing how Van's recommends wiring the starter and said the Van's method is bogus (my words) and it would be foolish to wire it that way. I took their advice and did not wire it like Van's. I should have wired like Van's. Not long ago=2C during start=2C I had a run-on starter and had to disconnec t the battery to disengage the starter. Long story short=2C I made a wiring error that=2C in the event of a stuck contactor or stuck starter solenoid =2C I could not remove power from the starter. I corrected that error and in the process I asked Bob's opinion and he recommended removing the jumper wire a nd wiring like Van's. So=2C now=2C the starter solenoid (S term) is powered from the I terminal on the contactor=2C a starter engaged light is powered from the contactor I terminal and I can now remove all power from the contactor in the event of a starter run-on. I did not put a fuse in the starter light wire from the contactor I terminal to the starter engaged light because it is only powered for a few seconds and releasing the starter butt on removes power from the S terminal and the wire. My setup is working fine now and I can check after each start to insure the starter engaged lig ht is not on. Regards=2C Stan Sutterfield Bob and/or others with help.. A couple of months ago there was some discussion about wiring a Skytec starter per Vans recommendations. I believe Bob recommended eliminating the jumper wire between the Starter B+ and 'S' terminal and connecting the 'S' terminal to the starter contactor "I" terminal. I am installing a Skytec 149-NL starter and the instructions say to remove this jumper wire when wiring for 24 volts and leave it in for 12 v operation. Does removing the jumper effect 12 volt operation? Also=2C I would like to add a 'starter engaged' warning light per Bobs' recommendation in the "connection" by wiring the "I" terminal of the starter contactor thru a 5amp fuse to the warning light. Any problem with doing both wiring alterations? Thanks=2C Tom Packard <==================== Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAtarget='_new'>Sign up now. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:39 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Good Afternoon Jesse, I wired my starter warning almost that way. I put it at the other end of that fat wire right on the contactor. As long as that wire is hot, for whatever reason, the light will be on. If your starter has an additional internal contactor my version wouldn't work, but if the external contactor is the only way for power to get to the starter it works fine. If the contactor sticks or gets shorted to power in some other manner, the light is lit. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 2/4/2010 4:14:34 P.M. Central Standard Time, jessejenks@hotmail.com writes: Wouldn't it be better to wire the light to the inboard heavy stud on the starter? That way if the light was on after you took your thumb off the button, you would know there is power at the actual starter, not just at the solenoid. ____________________________________ From: jessejenks@hotmail.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring I'm curious if the "starter engaged light" actually tells you anything more than that you are pressing the starter button with your thumb, which you should hopefully know already? In other words would the light actually inform you of a starter stuck on after the engine is running? I had been considering weather a light on the panel is worth wile or not. Thanks. Jesse PS I will be wiring like Vans, without the jumper. ____________________________________ From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Tom, For what it's worth, I'll tell you my story. I have an IO-390 with Skytec LS starter. The starter comes with a jumper wire installed which I understand jumps power over to engage the starter solenoid. The Skytec folks have a diagram on their web site showing how Van's recommends wiring the starter and said the Van's method is bogus (my words) and it would be foolish to wire it that way. I took their advice and did not wire it like Van's. I should have wired like Van's. Not long ago, during start, I had a run-on starter and had to disconnect the battery to disengage the starter. Long story short, I made a wiring error that, in the event of a stuck contactor or stuck starter solenoid, I could not remove power from the starter. I corrected that error and in the process I asked Bob's opinion and he recommended removing the jumper wire and wiring like Van's. So, now, the starter solenoid (S term) is powered from the I terminal on the contactor, a starter engaged light is powered from the contactor I terminal and I can now remove all power from the contactor in the event of a starter run-on. I did not put a fuse in the starter light wire from the contactor I terminal to the starter engaged light because it is only powered for a few seconds and releasing the starter button removes power from the S terminal and the wire. My setup is working fine now and I can check after each start to insure the starter engaged light is not on. Regards, Stan Sutterfield Bob and/or others with help.. A couple of months ago there was some discussion about wiring a Skytec starter per Vans recommendations. I believe Bob recommended eliminating the jumper wire between the Starter B+ and 'S' terminal and connecting the 'S' terminal to the starter contactor "I" terminal. I am installing a Skytec 149-NL starter and the instructions say to remove this jumper wire when wiring for 24 volts and leave it in for 12 v operation. Does removing the jumper effect 12 volt operation? Also, I would like to add a 'starter engaged' warning light per Bobs' recommendation in the "connection" by wiring the "I" terminal of the starter contactor thru a 5amp fuse to the warning light. Any problem with doing both wiring alterations? Thanks, Tom Packard <==================== ____________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAtarget='_new'>Sign up now. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:21:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring At 03:53 PM 2/4/2010, you wrote: >I'm curious if the "starter engaged light" actually tells you >anything more than that you are pressing the starter button with >your thumb, which you should hopefully know already? In other words >would the light actually inform you of a starter stuck on after the >engine is running? The "I" terminal is an independent connection that parallels the connetion between the external contactor's fat-wire studs. So yes, if there's power on the "I" terminal, then that contactor is either (1) energized to crank the engine or (2) stuck in a closed condition after the starter button is released. Contactor sticking is a rare incident usually related to cranking with a soggy battery. But it DOES happen. Adding an indicator lamp to the "I" terminal annunicates the condition in a timely manner. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring At 11:35 AM 2/4/2010, you wrote: > > >This is great timing. I am confused, because Van's default wiring >plans have you remove the jumper on the starter and wire this B11 >wire separately from starter contactor to starter, which seems the >same thing as leaving the jumper in place. Correct . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:47 PM PST US From: Jesse Jenks Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Thanks Bob and Old Bob=2C I was confusing myself with going between the Vans diagram for wiring with a separate contactor and the jumper removed on the internal contactor/solen oid=2C and the Z-22 diagram (which is actually how I'm going to do it). Wit h Z-22 it looks like you would wire the "starter engaged" light like I said =3B from the inboard (starter side) fat terminal on the starter because bat tery power is always present (with the master on) at the other fat terminal and if the internal contactor sticks closed that is the only way a light w ould show it. Am I right? From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Good Afternoon Jesse=2C I wired my starter warning almost that way. I put it at the other end of that fat wire right on the contactor. As long as that wire is hot=2C for wh atever reason=2C the light will be on. If your starter has an additional internal contactor my version wouldn't work=2C but if the external contactor is the only way for power to get to the starter it works fine. If the contactor sticks or gets shorted to power in some other manner=2C the light is lit. Happy Skies=2C Old Bob In a message dated 2/4/2010 4:14:34 P.M. Central Standard Time=2C jessejenks@hotmail.com writes: Wouldn't it be better to wire the light to the inboard heavy stud on the starter? That way if the light was on after you took your thumb off the button=2C you w ould know there is power at the actual starter=2C not just at the solenoid. From: jessejenks@hotmail.com aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring I'm curious if the "starter engaged light" actually tells you anything mo re than that you are pressing the starter button with your thumb=2C which yo u should hopefully know already? In other words would the light actually in form you of a starter stuck on after the engine is running? I had been considering weather a light on the panel is worth wile or not. Thanks. Jesse PS I will be wiring like Vans=2C without the jumper. From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Tom=2C For what it's worth=2C I'll tell you my story. I have an IO-390 with Skytec LS starter. The starter comes with a jumper wire installed which I understand jumps power over to engage the starter solenoid. The Skytec folks have a diagram on their web site showing how Van's recommends wiring the starter and said the Van's method is bogus (my words) and it would be foolish to wire it that way. I took their advice and did not wire it like Van's. I should have wired like Van's. Not long ago=2C during start=2C I had a run-on starter and had to disconn ect the battery to disengage the starter. Long story short=2C I made a wirin g error that=2C in the event of a stuck contactor or stuck starter solenoid =2C I could not remove power from the starter. I corrected that error and in the process I asked Bob's opinion and he recommended removing the jumper wire and wiring like Van's. So=2C now=2C the starter solenoid (S term) is powered from the I terminal on the contactor=2C a starter engaged light is powered fro m the contactor I terminal and I can now remove all power from the contactor in the event of a starter run-on. I did not put a fuse in the starter light wire from the contactor I terminal to the starter engaged light because it is only powered for a few seconds and releasing the starter button removes power from the S terminal and the wire. My setup is working fine now and I can check after each start to insure the starter engaged light is not on. Regards=2C Stan Sutterfield Bob and/or others with help.. A couple of months ago there was some discussion about wiring a Skytec starter per Vans recommendations. I believe Bob recommended eliminating the jumper wire between the Starter B+ and 'S' terminal and connecting the 'S' terminal to the starter contactor "I" terminal. I am installing a Skytec 149-NL starter and the instructions say to remove this jumper wire when wiring for 24 volts and leave it in for 12 v operation. Does removing the jumper effect 12 volt operation? Also=2C I would like to add a 'starter engaged' warning light per Bobs' recommendation in the "connection" by wiring the "I" terminal of the starter contactor thru a 5amp fuse to the warning light. Any problem with doing both wiring alterations? Thanks=2C Tom Packard <==================== Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAtarget='_new'>Sign up now. http ://f======================= =ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut io======================== ============== _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Does anyone have a source for these specialized Adel clamps From: "keithmckinley" Neal, My emails to you keep getting bounced back. Keith -------- Keith McKinley 700HS KFIT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=284930#284930 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:40 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Hi Jesse, Sounds good to me! Happy Skies, Old Bob Do Not Archive In a message dated 2/4/2010 10:58:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, jessejenks@hotmail.com writes: Thanks Bob and Old Bob, I was confusing myself with going between the Vans diagram for wiring with a separate contactor and the jumper removed on the internal contactor/solenoid, and the Z-22 diagram (which is actually how I'm going to do it). With Z-22 it looks like you would wire the "starter engaged" light like I said; from the inboard (starter side) fat terminal on the starter because battery power is always present (with the master on) at the other fat terminal and if the internal contactor sticks closed that is the only way a light would show it. Am I right? ____________________________________ From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring Good Afternoon Jesse, I wired my starter warning almost that way. I put it at the other end of that fat wire right on the contactor. As long as that wire is hot, for whatever reason, the light will be on. If your starter has an additional internal contactor my version wouldn't work, but if the external contactor is the only way for power to get to the starter it works fine. If the contactor sticks or gets shorted to power in some other manner, the light is lit. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 2/4/2010 4:14:34 P.M. Central Standard Time, jessejenks@hotmail.com writes: Wouldn't it be better to wire the light to the inboard heavy stud on the starter? That way if the light was on after you took your thumb off the button, you would know there is power at the actual starter, not just at the solenoid. ____________________________________ From: jessejenks@hotmail.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter and contactor wiring I'm curious if the "starter engaged light" actually tells you anything more than that you are pressing the starter button with your thumb, which you should hopefully know already? In other words would the light actually inform you of a starter stuck on after the engine is running? I had been considering weather a light on the panel is worth wile or not. Thanks. Jesse PS I will be wiring like Vans, without the jumper. ____________________________________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:40 PM PST US From: Matthew Schumacher Subject: AeroElectric-List: Nice catalog with fuse blocks, connectors, etc... List, Just found this catalog, after purchasing a fuse block on ebay: http://www.mta.it/on-multi/en/Home/ProductsandSales/Catalogues/OriginalEquipmentCatalogue/documento15002877.html The parts look to be very good quality, but I'm not sure if you can order directly due to the minimum quantity. I got my parts from this guy and he was good to work with: http://stores.ebay.com/arlingtonproducts Hopefully someone finds this useful. schu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.