Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:08 AM - Re: Starter engaged light, was Starter and contactor wiring (glen matejcek)
2. 08:29 AM - Battery desulfators . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 09:25 AM - Re: Battery desulfators . . . (Ian)
4. 09:25 AM - Re: Starter and contactor wiring (user9253)
5. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: Starter engaged light, was Starter and contactor wiring (Jesse Jenks)
6. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Starter engaged light, was Starter and contactor wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: Starter engaged light, was Starter and contactor wiring (Bill Boyd)
8. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 12:45 PM - Re: Battery desulfators . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 01:13 PM - S700-2-50 switch function (Jim McBurney)
11. 04:41 PM - Re: Starter and contactor wiring (Speedy11@aol.com)
12. 06:32 PM - Re: S700-2-50 switch function (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 06:38 PM - Re: Starter engaged light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE: Starter engaged light, was Starter and contactor |
wiring
Hi All-
It's been a while since I went down my decision tree on this topic, and I
might not recall all the details perfectly, but it seems to me that there
are a couple details of 'starter engaged' annunciation that might have been
overlooked. First, it seems to me that the objective is to know whether
there is power on the starter or not, so tapping the fat wire between the
solenoid and the motor would be in order. This would then annunciate that
there was power to the starter motor itself. It also has the advantage of
monitoring the spin down of the motor. Should the pinion hang and the
motor remain engaged after the solenoid opens, the back emf can keep the
engaged light illuminated. It might be especially zippy if one were to use
a bi-directional led for the indicator, such that one could perhaps have
amber indicate normal engagement and red to indicate run-on. Including a
zener diode could clip the spin-down indication during normal operation
while still allowing the run-on indication to function, should that become
desirable.
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 2
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| Subject: | Battery desulfators . . . |
>Comments/Questions: Why do the generally available battery
>desulfators all say "not for aviation use". What is the hazard? Is
>it legal or technical??
Probably a bit of both. If a battery intended
for use in an airplane has suffered much sulfation,
it's either (1) been abused in terms of maintaining
it in a topped off condition or (2) is past end of
life.
The whole desulfator thing hasn't really been
embraced by the battery industry. If an abused
(deeply discharged) battery is capable of being
recovered, then there are high-potential, charge-
discharge routines that can be conducted on
equipment that immediately measures and then
confirms airworthiness . . . or says "trash it".
The "break up the sulfate crystals" is problematic.
I suspect the admonition for "non-aviation use"
is a recognition that batteries in airplanes have
unique duties for reducing risk. I suspect the
folks who build such devices are simply worried
about being dragged into a lawsuit for having
sold one of their products into a tiny segment
of the market place.
For our purposes, it's far better to install
and maintain a battery in a manner that gives
us confidence for meeting design goals before
gracefully retiring the battery at end of life.
It just depends on how much you INTEND to depend
on your battery's performance. If its a day-vfr-
fair-weather machine, run it 'til it croaks.
If you have a desire to maintain and be confident
in meeting design goals for battery-only endurance
then your preventative maintenance plan is up to
you and may include any tools you choose . . .
including desulfators. Paraphrasing a noteworthy
modern philosopher, "Trust but verify".
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Battery desulfators . . . |
A gentleman behind the counter at Aircraft Spruce Canada told me that
he'd been using a trickle charger/de-sulphator for twelve years on the
same battery. Based on that, I put my trust in his word and purchased
one. Of course the only test of whether it's going to be doing it's job
is a discharge test, rather than blind faith. It's currently
maintaining the charge on the bench while I'm away for the winter. I
have a feeling that a de-sulphator might be better used for maintenance
than for attempting to recover a heavily crystallized battery. If any of
this in any way disagrees with anything Guru Nuckolls says, then take
his advice!!
Ian Brown, Bromont, QC
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Starter and contactor wiring |
> You got me. Never heard of the 12/24 volt jumper option.
> If the starter will function when supplied with 24v
> and the "S" terminal left open, then there's something
> going on inside that I'm not aware of. Suggest you
> follow instructions and leave the jumper installed.
Could there be something like this inside of the starter?
http://tinyurl.com/yallsk4
The manufacturer is pretty adamant about installing that jumper for 12 volts.
It seems to me that wiring according to Van's diagram would work too, as long
as 12 volts gets applied to that starter jumper-terminal while cranking.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=284974#284974
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/starter_202.jpg
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: Starter engaged light, was Starter and contactor |
wiring
Interesting. Thanks.
> From: aerobubba@earthlink.net
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Starter engaged light=2C was Starter and
contactor wiring
> Date: Fri=2C 5 Feb 2010 11:04:13 -0500
>
link.net>
>
> Hi All-
>
> It's been a while since I went down my decision tree on this topic=2C and
I
> might not recall all the details perfectly=2C but it seems to me that the
re
> are a couple details of 'starter engaged' annunciation that might have be
en
> overlooked. First=2C it seems to me that the objective is to know whethe
r
> there is power on the starter or not=2C so tapping the fat wire between t
he
> solenoid and the motor would be in order. This would then annunciate th
at
> there was power to the starter motor itself. It also has the advantage o
f
> monitoring the spin down of the motor. Should the pinion hang and the
> motor remain engaged after the solenoid opens=2C the back emf can keep th
e
> engaged light illuminated. It might be especially zippy if one were to u
se
> a bi-directional led for the indicator=2C such that one could perhaps hav
e
> amber indicate normal engagement and red to indicate run-on. Including a
> zener diode could clip the spin-down indication during normal operation
> while still allowing the run-on indication to function=2C should that bec
ome
> desirable.
>
> glen matejcek
> aerobubba@earthlink.net
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Starter engaged light, was Starter and contactor |
wiring
At 10:04 AM 2/5/2010, you wrote:
><aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>
>Hi All-
>
>It's been a while since I went down my decision tree on this topic, and I
>might not recall all the details perfectly, but it seems to me that there
>are a couple details of 'starter engaged' annunciation that might have been
>overlooked. First, it seems to me that the objective is to know whether
>there is power on the starter or not, so tapping the fat wire between the
>solenoid and the motor would be in order.
This is how it's done on TC aircraft when the
feature is installed.
>This would then annunciate that
>there was power to the starter motor itself. It also has the advantage of
>monitoring the spin down of the motor. Should the pinion hang and the
>motor remain engaged after the solenoid opens, the back emf can keep the
>engaged light illuminated.
Not true. Every starter has an over-run clutch that
prevents back-driving of the motor armature via a
stuck pinion gear. This is especially important for
modern, highly-geared starters where the armature
is already running 4-6000 rpm while cranking the
engine a couple hundred RPM.
Without an over-run clutch, an engine idling at
say 1000 rpm would either over-speed the armature
perhaps to destruction from thrown windings or
commutator bars or stripped gear teeth in the
gearbox.
>It might be especially zippy if one were to use
>a bi-directional led for the indicator, such that one could perhaps have
>amber indicate normal engagement and red to indicate run-on.
If a starter WERE in a back-drive mode, the polarity
of voltage would not reverse . . . hence the starter-stuck
light would not change colors . . . only get much brighter.
> Including a zener diode could clip the spin-down indication during
> normal operation while still allowing the run-on indication to
> function, should that become desirable.
An interesting hypothesis but not consistent with
either the physics of motor operations or with the
configuration of starter drive-trains.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Starter engaged light, was Starter and contactor |
wiring
Is this clutch protection found on SkyTec starters with a solenoid rather
than a bendix for drive gear engagement? My LED starter warning light has
stayed on many seconds after a successful start and made me wonder sometimes
- I guess that's a separate issue of back-EMF energizing the solenoid
somehow? I don't even have my wiring diagram in front of me at the
moment...I should keep quiet and learn something ;-)
Bill B
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
> At 10:04 AM 2/5/2010, you wrote:
>
>> aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Hi All-
>>
>> It's been a while since I went down my decision tree on this topic, and I
>> might not recall all the details perfectly, but it seems to me that there
>> are a couple details of 'starter engaged' annunciation that might have
>> been
>> overlooked. First, it seems to me that the objective is to know whether
>> there is power on the starter or not, so tapping the fat wire between the
>> solenoid and the motor would be in order.
>>
>
> This is how it's done on TC aircraft when the
> feature is installed.
>
>
> This would then annunciate that
>> there was power to the starter motor itself. It also has the advantage of
>> monitoring the spin down of the motor. Should the pinion hang and the
>> motor remain engaged after the solenoid opens, the back emf can keep the
>> engaged light illuminated.
>>
>
> Not true. Every starter has an over-run clutch that
> prevents back-driving of the motor armature via a
> stuck pinion gear. This is especially important for
> modern, highly-geared starters where the armature
> is already running 4-6000 rpm while cranking the
> engine a couple hundred RPM.
>
> Without an over-run clutch, an engine idling at
> say 1000 rpm would either over-speed the armature
> perhaps to destruction from thrown windings or
> commutator bars or stripped gear teeth in the
> gearbox.
>
>
> It might be especially zippy if one were to use
>> a bi-directional led for the indicator, such that one could perhaps have
>> amber indicate normal engagement and red to indicate run-on.
>>
>
> If a starter WERE in a back-drive mode, the polarity
> of voltage would not reverse . . . hence the starter-stuck
> light would not change colors . . . only get much brighter.
>
>
> Including a zener diode could clip the spin-down indication during
>> normal operation while still allowing the run-on indication to
>> function, should that become desirable.
>>
>
> An interesting hypothesis but not consistent with
> either the physics of motor operations or with the
> configuration of starter drive-trains.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Starter and contactor wiring |
At 11:23 AM 2/5/2010, you wrote:
>
>
> > You got me. Never heard of the 12/24 volt jumper option.
> > If the starter will function when supplied with 24v
> > and the "S" terminal left open, then there's something
> > going on inside that I'm not aware of. Suggest you
> > follow instructions and leave the jumper installed.
>
>Could there be something like this inside of the starter?
>http://tinyurl.com/yallsk4
>The manufacturer is pretty adamant about installing that jumper for 12 volts.
Interesting! It's not clear to me how the pair
of starter windings are managed . . . the PM
starters I'm familiar with have windings only on
an armature accessed through brushes. and commutators.
To accomplish what's depicted would take a dual winding
armature with two sets of brushes on each end of the
winding stack. I've seen armatures like this . . .
usually on dynamotors of the 1940-1960 era.
Emacs!
Here's an example of a 3-winding armature for a 24v motor,
and two high voltage generators all on the same piece of
moving machinery! I suppose one could do a 2-voltage
starter with two 12 windings on one armature. It would have
to be more complex than the drawing suggests.
If you look at electron flow in the 24v mode, both coils
run left to right. In the 12v mode, the left coil is
left to right, the right coil is right to left . . . they
would oppose each other unless the brush wiring to one
of the windings is also reversed.
Seems mighty complex just to get a "universal" starter.
> It seems to me that wiring according to Van's diagram would work
> too, as long as 12 volts gets applied to that starter
> jumper-terminal while cranking.
That's the way I see it too.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Battery desulfators . . . |
At 11:19 AM 2/5/2010, you wrote:
A gentleman behind the counter at Aircraft Spruce Canada told me that
he'd been using
a trickle charger/de-sulphator for twelve years on the same
battery. Based on that,
I put my trust in his word and purchased one.
What brand/model is it?
I do not doubt his experience. I only question the
analysis for cause/effect and performance. The fact
that his battery might still get an engine started
is not a good quantifier of stored energy. Cranking
a typical piston engine from a battery takes perhaps
2% of the battery's total energy.
Of course the only test of whether it's going to be doing it's job is a
discharge test, rather than blind faith.
You are correct in your suggestion that a deep-discharge
cap-checks and perhaps load-testing are the true measure
of battery capability.
It's currently maintaining the charge on the bench while I'm away for the
winter. I have a feeling that a de-sulphator might be better used for
maintenance than for attempting to recover a heavily crystallized battery.
If any of this in any way disagrees with anything Guru Nuckolls says, then
take his advice!!
It would be interesting to see what technology is
offered in his 12+ years old device. If it's a true
"trickle" charger, then it's an SLVA battery killer.
The maintainers and smart chargers I have in my shop
behave like . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Minder_Recharge.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_2.jpg
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg
Note in the fourth trace, there's a lot of "noise" on
the data . . . it may well be that this charger has a
feature designed to electrically "shake up" battery
chemistry with some notion of preventing or reversing
sulfation growth. I have some examples in my family
of instrumentation batteries that still cap-check at
85+ percent of new after 6 years . . . so it seems
that having a useful device after 12 years in similar
storage may not be a stretch.
If you check out the dozens of patents on devices
that claim to rescue fair batteries in distress
from the clutches of evil Dr. Sulfation, their
approaches and explanations are all over the map.
A search at
http://freepatentsonline.com
for . . . desulfator + battery + charger . . .
yielded 38 hits.
I've not read them in detail but keep in mind that
for one to receive a patent, the process/hardware
depicted must be UNIQUE. So in one resource alone
we are made privy to 38 different approaches. Keep
in mind also that the granting of a patent is no
guarantee that the thing performs as advertised.
I'm not suggesting that one or more such devices are
not useful in some manner. I just don't KNOW. I DO
suggest that MOST of what's offered is like putting
magnets on your car's fuel lines to raise the octane
of the gasoline as it passes by . . .
If anyone has a real world solution to extending
battery life by way of staving off or reversing
sulfation, it's not yet apparent to me. I'm participating
in the evaluation and commercialization of a remarkably
innovative lead-acid aircraft battery that promises weight
reduction and improved performance to boot.
As soon as the business details of the program are
finalized, I'll be able to talk about it more. However,
The real bonus for me is an opportunity to know the
chemistry gurus who are supporting the program. Battery
sulfation and DE-SULFATION will be among numerous topics
I'd like to discuss.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | S700-2-50 switch function |
Bob,
My circuit requires a DPDT "on-on-(on)" switch action with a
make-before-break between center and momentary positions. Does the
S700-2-50 switch fulfill the make-before-break requirement? If it doesn't, do
you know of a source for such a switch?
Thanks for all your help via the Aeroelectric list. I'm a loyal lurker.
Do Not Archive
Blue skies and tailwinds
Jim
CH-801
DeltaHawk diesel
90% done 99% left
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Starter and contactor wiring |
Jesse,
Bob has already expertly answered the question.
For me, I was unsure whether it was the starter contactor or the starter
solenoid that stuck causing the run-on starter. So, when I changed my
wiring, I reasoned that 1) if I were pressing the starter button, I would know
that 2) If the starter button itself stuck, I could see the starter light
still on and remove power 3) If the contactor stuck, I could see the
starter light on and remove power 4) The only way the starter solenoid could
stick is if the contactor stuck - that is, removing power from a not-stuck
contactor would, by definition, remove power from the starter. Thus, a stuck
starter solenoid can only occur if it is still getting power from the
contactor. When power is removed from the starter solenoid, then the gear
drive will retract and disengage the starter.
For me, the starter engaged light is a worthwhile addition. It tells me
that power is or is not applied across the starter contactor. If it is not
lit, then power is not being applied to the starter terminals (or the bulb
is burned out)
I considered running the starter light wire from the starter terminal, but
reasoned that nothing is gained by doing so since power at the contactor I
terminal indicates power is applied across the contactor.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
I'm curious if the "starter engaged light" actually tells you anything
more
than that you are pressing the starter button with your thumb=2C which you
should hopefully know already? In other words would the light actually inf
orm you of a starter stuck on after the engine is running?
I had been considering weather a light on the panel is worth wile or not.
Thanks.
Jesse
PS I will be wiring like Vans=2C without the jumper.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: S700-2-50 switch function |
At 03:09 PM 2/5/2010, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>My circuit requires a DPDT "on-on-(on)" switch action with a
>make-before-break between center and momentary positions. Does the
>S700-2-50 switch fulfill the make-before-break requirement? If it
>doesn't, do you know of a source for such a switch?
>
>Thanks for all your help via the Aeroelectric list. I'm a loyal lurker.
The switch mechanism is a "teter-toter"
rocker that can only break the present connection
long before the open contacts close. I'm
not aware of any toggel switch that would operate
any differently.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Starter engaged light |
At 01:53 PM 2/5/2010, you wrote:
>Is this clutch protection found on SkyTec starters with a solenoid
>rather than a bendix for drive gear engagement?
I think so. The "Bendix" was sort of an automatic disengagement
because over-running the starter motor would cause the pinion
to retract back down its spiral engagement track.
All direct engagement drives operated by solenoid are
at risk of over-run damage if they do not have another
form of clutch . . . usually a "sprag clutch" on the
pinion shaft.
> My LED starter warning light has stayed on many seconds after a
> successful start and made me wonder sometimes - I guess that's a
> separate issue of back-EMF energizing the solenoid somehow?
What kind of starter? If it's a PM starter =AND
you have the jumper installed between the starter
solenoid "S" terminal and the Fat-Wire terminal, then
yes . . . emf generated during spindown can keep
the solenoid extended for an unnecessary length
of time. This is why we recommend either a remote
starter control relay (Z-22) =OR= direct control
of the starter though a robust starter pushbutton.
> I don't even have my wiring diagram in front of me at the
> moment...I should keep quiet and learn something ;-)
It would be helpful to know what kind of starter, and how
it's wired. But the phenomenon you're observing may
be a condition needing some attention.
Bob . . .
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