Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:57 AM - Re: GNS 430 no comm (Ed Gilroy)
2. 05:30 AM - Re: GNS 430 no comm (John Grosse)
3. 06:35 AM - Re: Question on switch wiring ()
4. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Starter engaged light (Kevin Boddicker)
5. 02:52 PM - Re: Stuck starter contactor (glen matejcek)
6. 03:18 PM - Re: Aux Alternator B Lead, Battery Buss (MLWynn@aol.com)
7. 04:15 PM - Re: Aux Alternator B Lead, Battery Buss (Bob Leffler)
8. 07:32 PM - Air Pathways Intercom (Noplugs)
9. 07:37 PM - Re: Aux Alternator B Lead, Battery Buss (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: GNS 430 no comm |
Call Garmin. When ours went out like this (installed several years ago) we
sent it to them and they inspected it repaired it. I think it was like $100.
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Brooks Wolfe <slipstream@wavecable.com>wrote:
>
> I'm just wrapping up my 430 installation, and was hoping to hear something
> (anything) through my headphones.. Nada.
>
> I have a used GNS 430 from Wentworth installed. New Sigtronics intercom
> (at least *this* works). The Garmin is plugged into the intercom with the
> 500 Ohm Audio Hi output. The 500 Ohm Audio Lo is grounded. The Garmin
> install manual shows a paired "Audio 1" Hi and Low on P4001, but I can't
> find any other use for it mentioned anywhere, so it's not connected.
>
> Pressing the squelch button also makes no noise, as I would have expected.
>
> One issue that has me concerned is an incident in my hangar a few weeks ago
> -- A particularly long and bizarre chain of events led to the GNS430
> dropping from table to concrete floor. Not far, but enough to give the case
> a tiny bit of wrinkle at the back end. While the unit seems to power up
> just fine, I can't help but wonder if there might have been some physical
> damage, causing this inability to get audio.
>
> Brooks
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: GNS 430 no comm |
It's $800 now.
Sent from my iPod
On Feb 9, 2010, at 5:54 AM, Ed Gilroy <egilroy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Call Garmin. When ours went out like this (installed several years
> ago) we sent it to them and they inspected it repaired it. I think
> it was like $100.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Brooks Wolfe <slipstream@wavecable.com
> > wrote:
>
> I'm just wrapping up my 430 installation, and was hoping to hear
> something (anything) through my headphones.. Nada.
>
> I have a used GNS 430 from Wentworth installed. New Sigtronics
> intercom (at least *this* works). The Garmin is plugged into the
> intercom with the 500 Ohm Audio Hi output. The 500 Ohm Audio Lo is
> grounded. The Garmin install manual shows a paired "Audio 1" Hi and
> Low on P4001, but I can't find any other use for it mentioned
> anywhere, so it's not connected.
>
> Pressing the squelch button also makes no noise, as I would have
> expected.
>
> One issue that has me concerned is an incident in my hangar a few
> weeks ago -- A particularly long and bizarre chain of events led to
> the GNS430 dropping from table to concrete floor. Not far, but
> enough to give the case a tiny bit of wrinkle at the back end.
> While the unit seems to power up just fine, I can't help but wonder
> if there might have been some physical damage, causing this
> inability to get audio.
>
> Brooks
>
>
> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Question on switch wiring |
Excellent, I'm all for simplification. Before I touch it I will get the
real numbers.
Thanks Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Question on switch wiring
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
At 04:44 PM 2/8/2010, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob,
>
>Yes, the switch is overkill (or in reality, perhaps the relay is),
>but the switch matches the others if underutilized. I did not look
>hard and long enough for a 1 amp or lower with the same size/style.
>The pump shipped with 12 ga. wire leads and I really did not want to
>run a 12 ga. wire to the switch, thus the relay. The FP is rated for
7-10 amps.
Do you have real world current values for what
the pump needs in normal operations? Is this a
flight pump or an aux/boost pump that is seldom
used/needed? 7A (100 watts) is a LOT of power
for the pumping of fuel. While your pump may be
capable of drawing that much current at rated
maximum volume and pressure, I've found that
most real-world installations are much less
demanding.
I think it likely that you can simply wire
the pump system with 16 awg wires through
the un-aided switch protected by a 10A
fuse/breaker. But you need to get some
real numbers from somebody who's flying
the system or the folks who engineered
the system and have numbers.
Alternatively, wire it all with 14AWG,
15A breaker and leave the relay out. MUCH
simpler and more reliable. The built in
lamp can be used as defined in original
design goals.
Bob. . .
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| Subject: | Re: Starter engaged light |
Bob,
I was concerned when I read this post, as my OV/LV Sensor is just the
opposite.
The documentation that was provided from B&C states that "A flashing
light indicates a bus voltage greater than 15.5 volts DC, ; Steady
light indicates bus voltage below 12.5 volts DC."
That is how mine operates. Just trying to keep the confusion to a
minimum.
Thanks for all you do.
Kevin Boddicker
Tri Q 200 N7868B 153 hours, and waiting for some flying weather!!!
Luana, IA.
On Feb 8, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 02:01 PM 2/8/2010, you wrote:
>> Hello Old Bob,
>>
>> Thanks for giving this some thought.
>>
>> The purpose of the lamp going on when I depress the starter is as
>> a test of the lamp.
>
> The rule of thumb for lights that routinely illuminate
> during the process of getting ready for flight don't need
> press-to-test features. For example, the low volts warning
> light should be flashing at you before the engine starts
> and go out when the alternator comes on line. The starter
> engaged light should be illuminated while you're cranking
> and go out when you release the button. The criteria for
> "pre-flight-detectable" are satisfied.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
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| Subject: | RE: Stuck starter contactor |
HI Bob-
> Hmmmm . . . interesting. I'm wondering how the operator 'knew'
> that the starter contactor had stuck when the FAA inspection
> could not identify a source of the fire.
As I recall, about the first indication they had was brown smoke coming
from the nacelle. I believe that's why they felt it electrical in origin.
The generator, starter, and feathering pump are the only fat-wired items
out there. The generators are off line anywhere near idle, and the
feathering pumps had yet to be checked, as I understand it. The starter
was the only of the relevant systems used by that point in time. The volt
meter might have been informative, but the ammeters would have shown zero
under these circumstances. Also, I don't think there was much relevant
airframe left for the feds to look at by the time it was all over. I don't
know how the plane was loaded, but the right wing could have had as much as
500 gals of gas and 50 gals of oil, all of it directly accessible from or
actually in the wheel well. (This airplane did not have starter engaged
lights, but as a result of this event, ours does).
>
> If somebody 'knew' the starter contactor was stuck or
> still energized, I'm mystified as to why the aircraft
> ever left the parking place.
They didn't know the contactor failed until the event was well under way.
>
> A starter feeder should have been protected from destructive
> overload by some means . . . c/b, current limiter, etc.
The only circuit protection for any of the fat wires on this plane is the
reverse current relay. In fact, the external power socket in the aft
fuselage is hard wired directly to the buss. The crew has no direct
control over the application of ground power to the buss, and anytime the
buss is hot, so is the ground power receptacle as well as the 25 or so feet
of connecting fat wire. Seems odd, especially for a combat aircraft.
Nothing like an arcing fat wire in the bomb bay...
> Since the fire apparently didn't originate under the cowl
> (from a self-destructing starter) then components that failed
> to the point of starting a fire had to be things like
> unprotected wires, failed insulation, failed contactor, etc.
That was their reasoning as well. An error in the report is the location
of the J-box. It is actually under the nacelle fairing atop the wing skin.
This j-box contains both the feathering pump contactor and the starter
contactor. Just aft of the J-box under the same fairing is the fuel
transfer pump and associated hard and soft plumbing.
>
> It's quite possible that the starter contactor on this
> airplane looked something like this when new . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/6041_Contactor.jpg
>
> and may well have degenerated to something like this
> when failed . . .
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/6041_Contactor_Failure.jpg
>
> A contactor that is "stuck" is generally turned on 'hard'
> and is not generating a lot of heat. On the other hand,
> this style of contactor (mounted in the wheel-well j-box?)
> needs to be inspected (note removable cover) periodically
> for degraded contacts or signs of heating off the moving
> contact carrier.
I don't know what type of maintenance regimen that aircraft was on, but
ours is on an AAIP and that inspection is a regularly scheduled item. One
other thing about this particular contactor is that material sloughed off
the contacts can bind the mechanism.
>When these contactors experience a high-
> resistance overheat, they can fail rather spectacularly.
That was also what the operator thought. Given what they experienced, they
surmised that the contactor did a kind of 'china syndrome' and burned down
through the wing skin into the wheel well and compromised the fuel selector
valve or related plumbing.
>
> The failed contactor I showed came out of a j-box that
> routes power to a 130A a/c compressor motor. These contactors
> have a relatively high failure rate . . . but being
> inside a metal enclosure keeps things from getting
> out of hand.
>
> It's also interesting that re-ignition was attributed to
> "hot" metal. Things that ignite from hot metal are liquids
> with easily ignited vapors . . . it doesn't sound like this
> fire went on long enough and with sufficient fuel to heat
> aluminum structure or steel landing gear parts to the point
> where they become re-ignition hazards. On the other hand,
> things that are combustible within the j-box may have
> been supporting some glowing coals and been shielded from
> the extinguisher. . . or it may be that power was still
> present in the j-box.
Most of the fuel lines are cloth / rubber hoses, and the original wiring
also had cloth insulation. The fuel selector valve is shielded from below
to protect it from materials thrown by the tire. This shielding could well
interfere with extinguishing. Of course, the wheel well is right behind a
radial engine, and contains several hinged and telescoping hydraulic lines,
and I have no knowledge of how clean it was or wasn't.
>
> In any case, it seems unlikely that the real chain of
> events for this unfortunate demise of an otherwise
> perfectly good airplane are known. Given its age,
> it was certainly subject to the effects of time on
> electrical system materials that were the best-we-knew-
> how-to-do in 1940. One needs to spend an extra effort
> to track these materials for continued airworthiness.
Amen, brother-
>
> Calling this one a "stuck starter contactor" incident
> is a WAG.
The comment about 'the right generator would not accept a load' makes me
wonder about the reverse current relay, which actually IS in the wheel
well. I'm sure if the RCR stuck closed the battery would get discharged
fairly quickly, but I wonder if the current would be great enough to do
damage as long as the engine was at least at idle? Hmmm...
>
> Bob . . .
>
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Aux Alternator B Lead, Battery Buss |
Thanks for this Bob.
I am trying to do my homework. I am not an electrical engineer and have
profited a great deal from what is written here. I guess I don't clearly
understand what happens to some of the components in a fail mode.
So the first question is, where does the B-lead from the aux alt go? If
it is connected with the main alt B-lead to the starter side of the main
contactor, then the failure mode goes like this:
1. Main alt fails, turn off it's field and turn on the aux alt. Shed load
to 80% of the aux alternator rating (80%X20 amp= 16 amp max).
2. If the main contactor fails open, will the main alternator function
okay?
3. If the battery shorts ( a rare occurrence, to be sure) then open the
main contactor. Does the main alt work okay?
4. Main alt fails followed by a failure of the battery contactor. Are we
still okay?
If the aux alt is connected to the battery side of the battery contactor:
1. Main alt fails, turn off it's field and turn on the aux alt. Shed load
to 80% of the aux alternator rating (80%X20 amp= 16 amp max). Not a
problem
2. If the main contactor fails open, will the main alt still be okay or do
I switch to the aux alternator because it has a direct battery connection?
3. If the battery shorts, that should burn out the fuse between the aux
alternator B-lead if that alternator is being used. Is the main still
functional?
The question I am getting to, I think, is how does the system perform if
the battery is out of the circuit either because the main contactor fails or
we have to open it to free us from a failed battery. Back to my original
question. Where should the aux alternator B-lead go and why?
Thanks
Michael Wynn
RV 8 Finishing
In a message dated 2/6/2010 12:19:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Ausman at Vertical Power (still scratching my head on whether or not
to use the system), he recommends connecting the aux alternator B
lead to the battery side of the battery
contactor. http://verticalpower.com/docs/VP_Config_2.pdf
When I asked him why, he said the following:
We wire the secondary alternator to the battery side of the contactor
so that you can still use it if the battery contactor fails. Your
normal operating mode is with the battery contactor closed and using
the primary alternator. If the primary alternator fails, you can
switch over to the secondary alternator. In this failure mode it
really doesn't matter which side the secondary alternator is connected to.
<snip>
Anyway, hope this hasn't been to confusing. This forum and the
Aeroelectric book have been an invaluable source of education for a
first-time builder.
Keep in mind that when the installation manual for
a system like Vertical Power =or= a Z-figure is
published, the ARCHITECTURE is being crafted to
meet certain design goals. The advice from Marc
embraces the design philosophy for a two-layered
electrical system as described in the notes for
Z-13/8 and illustrated in the companion drawing.
If your design goals are different and you are
satisfied with the failure mode effects for a
new configuration, then by all means . . .
I'm not trying to champion anyone's architectures
as being superior over any another . . . only the
idea that there are REASONS why things are hooked
up a particular way. Be sure you do the homework,
take the exam and are satisfied with the grade
before you shuffle things around.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Aux Alternator B Lead, Battery Buss |
Michael,
I'm currently planning a VP-200 implementation at the moment. I'm not an
expert, but I'll share my opinion.
See my comments inline...
bob
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
MLWynn@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aux Alternator B Lead, Battery Buss
Thanks for this Bob.
I am trying to do my homework. I am not an electrical engineer and have
profited a great deal from what is written here. I guess I don't clearly
understand what happens to some of the components in a fail mode.
So the first question is, where does the B-lead from the aux alt go? Config
2 has the alt alternator connected between the battery and the battery
contactor. If it is connected with the main alt B-lead to the starter side
of the main contactor, then the failure mode goes like this:
1. Main alt fails, turn off it's field and turn on the aux alt. Shed load
to 80% of the aux alternator rating (80%X20 amp= 16 amp max). ok
2. If the main contactor fails open, will the main alternator function okay?
It should, but your battery won't charge
3. If the battery shorts ( a rare occurrence, to be sure) then open the main
contactor. Does the main alt work okay? It should work just fine.
4. Main alt fails followed by a failure of the battery contactor. Are we
still okay? Yes, assuming that the alt alternator is attached between the
battery and starter contactors.
If the aux alt is connected to the battery side of the battery contactor:
1. Main alt fails, turn off it's field and turn on the aux alt. Shed load
to 80% of the aux alternator rating (80%X20 amp= 16 amp max). Not a problem
2. If the main contactor fails open, will the main alt still be okay or do I
switch to the aux alternator because it has a direct battery connection? Yes
it's ok, and yes the alt alternator can charge the battery if needed and
drive an e-bus
3. If the battery shorts, that should burn out the fuse between the aux
alternator B-lead if that alternator is being used. Is the main still
functional? Should be as long as the main alternator hasn't failed.
The question I am getting to, I think, is how does the system perform if the
battery is out of the circuit either because the main contactor fails or we
have to open it to free us from a failed battery. Back to my original
question. Where should the aux alternator B-lead go and why?
I'm actually working on a slightly different variant, but am asking similar
questions. I'm also adding a second battery to config 2 that will drive
the endurance buss and can be brought online in parallel if needed for those
really cold morning starts. The placement of the back up alternative
doesn't seem to have a significant impact as long as you ensure that only
one alternator is on at a time. If it's behind the battery contactor then
you added another failure point in my mind.
I'm planning on giving Marc a call in the morning to discuss.
bob
Thanks
Michael Wynn
RV 8 Finishing
In a message dated 2/6/2010 12:19:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com writes:
<res://C:\Program%20Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/QMAR
K.GIF>
<res://C:\Program%20Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/ARRO
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Ausman at Vertical Power (still scratching my head on whether or not
to use the system), he recommends connecting the aux alternator B
lead to the battery side of the battery
contactor. http://verticalpower.com/docs/VP_Config_2.pdf
When I asked him why, he said the following:
We wire the secondary alternator to the battery side of the contactor
so that you can still use it if the battery contactor fails. Your
normal operating mode is with the battery contactor closed and using
the primary alternator. If the primary alternator fails, you can
switch over to the secondary alternator. In this failure mode it
really doesn't matter which side the secondary alternator is connected to.
<snip>
Anyway, hope this hasn't been to confusing. This forum and the
Aeroelectric book have been an invaluable source of education for a
first-time builder.
Keep in mind that when the installation manual for
a system like Vertical Power =or= a Z-figure is
published, the ARCHITECTURE is being crafted to
meet certain design goals. The advice from Marc
embraces the design philosophy for a two-layered
electrical system as described in the notes for
Z-13/8 and illustrated in the companion drawing.
If your design goals are different and you are
satisfied with the failure mode effects for a
new configuration, then by all means . . .
I'm not trying to champion anyone's architectures
as being superior over any another . . . only the
idea that there are REASONS why things are hooked
up a particular way. Be sure you do the homework,
take the exam and are satisfied with the grade
before you shuffle things around.
Bob . . . ========================= Use utilities Day
================================================ - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS ================================================ -
List Contribution Web Site sp;
==================================================
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| Subject: | Air Pathways Intercom |
I have come across an "Air Pathways AP120" Intercom. Does anyone use one of these?
And can anyone help me with a copy of the installation manual & schematic?
Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285763#285763
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| Subject: | Re: Aux Alternator B Lead, Battery Buss |
At 05:17 PM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
>Thanks for this Bob.
>
>I am trying to do my homework. I am not an electrical engineer and
>have profited a great deal from what is written here. I guess I
>don't clearly understand what happens to some of the components in a fail mode.
>
>So the first question is, where does the B-lead from the aux alt
>go? If it is connected with the main alt B-lead to the starter side
>of the main contactor, then the failure mode goes like this:
Which Z-figure, if any, are you considering.
>
>1. Main alt fails, turn off it's field and turn on the aux
>alt. Shed load to 80% of the aux alternator rating (80%X20 amp= 16 amp max).
v
The 80% rule is about maintaining some "excess" capability
for the recharging of batteries. If you've had a main
alternator failure then getting comfortably on the
ground is the mission of the moment. Use 100% of the
aux alternator if necessary . . . plus what ever is
in the battery to boot.
What are your "get down comfortably loads" as compared
to your aux alternator size?
>2. If the main contactor fails open, will the main alternator function okay?
Probably but not guaranteed. Does your airplane have
a hydraulic pump . . . or klieg lights for landing?
>3. If the battery shorts ( a rare occurrence, to be sure) then open
>the main contactor. Does the main alt work okay?
RB batteries very rarely short . . . during the
time the 5-cell battery is connected to the bus,
the alternator is stuffing 14v into a 11.8
volt system . . . the loadmeter (if installed will
show abnormally high amps while bus volts are low.
This condition is not stable. As the battery
dries up, the voltage will rise and the current
may go down a bit. This is so rare with an RG
battery that what ever diagnostic and reaction
plans you have concocted for such an event will
probably have been forgotten.
>4. Main alt fails followed by a failure of the battery
>contactor. Are we still okay?
That's a dual failure on a single flight. Also
depends on what z-figure you're talking about.
>
>If the aux alt is connected to the battery side of the battery contactor:
Don't recommend that for the SD-20 . . . that's
fraught with the same issues as the previously
published and recently withdrawn Z-13/20. If
you have an SD-20, go with a Z-12 emulation
and put the aux alternator on the ship-side
of the battery contactor.
>
>1. Main alt fails, turn off it's field and turn on the aux
>alt. Shed load to 80% of the aux alternator rating (80%X20 amp= 16
>amp max). Not a problem
>2. If the main contactor fails open, will the main alt still be okay
>or do I switch to the aux alternator because it has a direct battery
>connection?
>3. If the battery shorts, that should burn out the fuse between the
>aux alternator B-lead if that alternator is being used. Is the main
>still functional?
>
>The question I am getting to, I think, is how does the system
>perform if the battery is out of the circuit either because the main
>contactor fails or we have to open it to free us from a failed
>battery. Back to my original question. Where should the aux
>alternator B-lead go and why?
If it were my airplane, Z-13/8 is the lightest,
simplest, least expensive way to get SYSTEM
reliability not offered by the majority of TC
aircraft. Just how close Vertical Power comes to
emulating Z-13/8 performance has not been
fully explored by me . . . Marc would be
your authority on that. But as I mentioned
above, an SD-20 should be paired with the
SB-1 regulator, connected to the main bus
and adjusted for 13.0 volts. Operate per B&C
instructions.
Bob . . .
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