---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/12/10: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:31 AM - Re: Warm Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 08:26 AM - OVM-14 and VP-200 Ground Power Plug (Bob Leffler) 3. 09:29 AM - Eliminate the Starter Contactor? (AVick) 4. 09:33 AM - Re: OVM-14 and VP-200 Ground Power Plug (George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ) 5. 09:44 AM - Re: Battery desulfators . . . (Ian) 6. 01:08 PM - Mini blade fuses (Dan Brown) 7. 01:41 PM - Re: Mini blade fuses (Harley) 8. 02:16 PM - Re: Mini blade fuses (B Tomm) 9. 06:10 PM - Re: OVM-14 and VP-200 Ground Power Plug (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 06:14 PM - Re: Mini blade fuses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 06:17 PM - Re: Eliminate the Starter Contactor? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 06:21 PM - Re: Battery desulfators . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 07:42 PM - Re: Warm Alternator (Ken) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Warm Alternator At 07:21 PM 2/11/2010, you wrote: >Had an interesting discovery today. I was charging the battery on >my RV-7A and had the Master on and the Dynon Flt-Dek 180 on while I >was doing some calibrations. When I got out of the airplane I felt >the alternator an it was warm to the touch. When I turned the >Master and Dynon off it soon dropped to ambient temp. Do I have >something wrong in my wiring? Or would this be normally expected >given the circumstances described. I have wired the plane in >accordance with the Z-13 diagram but have the internally regulated >alternator until I need to change it. If the bus is hot and the engine not running and assuming further that the alternator's internal regulator is not fitted with a "stationary alternator detection system" then the regulator will run the field at full bus voltage and draw about 3 amps. This is on the order of 40-50 watts of heat being dissipated within the alternator. If Z-13, then do you have absolute control of the alternator via the ity-bity wire that goes into the back of the alternator? Was your master switch fully ON (BATT + ALT) or just up to the mid (BATT ONLY) position? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:21 AM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 and VP-200 Ground Power Plug I was looking for the OVM-14 module on B&C's website to use per Vertical Power's recommendation for a ground power plug. It appears to not be available from B&C. I did find old links through google, but those pages have been removed. I sent off a inquiry to B&C, but haven't received a response from them. Any suggestions on an alternative device? This link will take to you want I'm attempting to do: http://www.verticalpower.com/docs/GPP.pdf Thanks, Bob ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:32 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Eliminate the Starter Contactor? From: "AVick" Bob, I have a B&C starter with the attached solenoid. The solenoid ( which is attached to the case of the starter) has a wire from the starter to the solenoid. I would like to cut the jumper wire to the solenoid and wire that wire directly to the starter switch there by eliminating the need for the starter contactor relay. Will that work? Or should I still use the starter contactor relay. I have several A&P's tell me the starter contactor is not needed. They said wire the starter switch directly to the starter solenoid. Another party said I would get an amp surge from the starter solenoid back to my starter switch and it would cause premature failure of the starter switch contacts. So what is the answer? Thanks, Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286158#286158 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 and VP-200 Ground Power Plug From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ" Bob - I may have a spare. I'll check this afternoon and let you know... neal =============== I was looking for the OVM-14 module on B&C's website to use per Vertical Power's recommendation for a ground power plug. It appears to not be available from B&C. I did find old links through google, but those pages have been removed. I sent off a inquiry to B&C, but haven't received a response from them. Any suggestions on an alternative device? This link will take to you want I'm attempting to do: http://www.verticalpower.com/docs/GPP.pdf Thanks, Bob ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery desulfators . . . From: Ian It was listed as a "non-aviation" device, but I'd be interested in your comments on it. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/batteryminder11-11671.php Ian ----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery desulfators . . . At 11:19 AM 2/5/2010, you wrote: A gentleman behind the counter at Aircraft Spruce Canada told me that he'd been using a trickle charger/de-sulphator for twelve years on the same battery. Based on that, I put my trust in his word and purchased one. What brand/model is it? I do not doubt his experience. I only question the analysis for cause/effect and performance. The fact that his battery might still get an engine started is not a good quantifier of stored energy. Cranking a typical piston engine from a battery takes perhaps 2% of the battery's total energy. Of course the only test of whether it's going to be doing it's job is a discharge test, rather than blind faith. You are correct in your suggestion that a deep-discharge cap-checks and perhaps load-testing are the true measure of battery capability. It's currently maintaining the charge on the bench while I'm away for the winter. I have a feeling that a de-sulphator might be better used for maintenance than for attempting to recover a heavily crystallized battery. If any of this in any way disagrees with anything Guru Nuckolls says, then take his advice!! It would be interesting to see what technology is offered in his 12+ years old device. If it's a true "trickle" charger, then it's an SLVA battery killer. The maintainers and smart chargers I have in my shop behave like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Minder_Recharge.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_2.jpg and http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg Note in the fourth trace, there's a lot of "noise" on the data . . . it may well be that this charger has a feature designed to electrically "shake up" battery chemistry with some notion of preventing or reversing sulfation growth. I have some examples in my family of instrumentation batteries that still cap-check at 85+ percent of new after 6 years . . . so it seems that having a useful device after 12 years in similar storage may not be a stretch. If you check out the dozens of patents on devices that claim to rescue fair batteries in distress from the clutches of evil Dr. Sulfation, their approaches and explanations are all over the map. A search at http://freepatentsonline.com for . . . desulfator + battery + charger . . . yielded 38 hits. I've not read them in detail but keep in mind that for one to receive a patent, the process/hardware depicted must be UNIQUE. So in one resource alone we are made privy to 38 different approaches. Keep in mind also that the granting of a patent is no guarantee that the thing performs as advertised. I'm not suggesting that one or more such devices are not useful in some manner. I just don't KNOW. I DO suggest that MOST of what's offered is like putting magnets on your car's fuel lines to raise the octane of the gasoline as it passes by . . . If anyone has a real world solution to extending battery life by way of staving off or reversing sulfation, it's not yet apparent to me. I'm participating in the evaluation and commercialization of a remarkably innovative lead-acid aircraft battery that promises weight reduction and improved performance to boot. As soon as the business details of the program are finalized, I'll be able to talk about it more. However, The real bonus for me is an opportunity to know the chemistry gurus who are supporting the program. Battery sulfation and DE-SULFATION will be among numerous topics I'd like to discuss. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:28 PM PST US From: Dan Brown Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mini blade fuses I'm installing a few electronic devices in the Mooney that call for inline fuses as circuit protection. I've never been a fan of the inline glass fuse holders, so I'm looking at inline blade fuse holders instead. Then, since smaller is better (or so I think), I'm specifically looking at the mini blade fuse holders. The problem is that these devices specify a fuse rating of one amp (or sometimes less), and the smallest mini blade fuses I'm finding are 2 amps. I don't think that will really be harmful, but I want to follow the instructions as closely as possible. So, with that explanation, are there sources of one-amp or lower rated mini blade fuses? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:13 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mini blade fuses Yep...the fuse manufacturer Littlefuse lists them, so I would guess that you can find them at anyplace that sells their fuses...a quick Google search found them at Mouser ( http://tinyurl.com/yh2z8zp ) and a dozen smaller online stores for around 25-35 cents each. Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Brown wrote: > > I'm installing a few electronic devices in the Mooney that call for > inline fuses as circuit protection. I've never been a fan of the > inline glass fuse holders, so I'm looking at inline blade fuse holders > instead. Then, since smaller is better (or so I think), I'm > specifically looking at the mini blade fuse holders. > > The problem is that these devices specify a fuse rating of one amp (or > sometimes less), and the smallest mini blade fuses I'm finding are 2 > amps. I don't think that will really be harmful, but I want to follow > the instructions as closely as possible. > > So, with that explanation, are there sources of one-amp or lower rated > mini blade fuses? > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:17 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mini blade fuses See http://www.bandc.biz/circuit-protective-devices.aspx Also see digikey.com etc Bevan ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 and VP-200 Ground Power Plug At 10:21 AM 2/12/2010, you wrote: >I was looking for the OVM-14 module on B&C's website to use per >Vertical Power's recommendation for a ground power plug. It >appears to not be available from B&C. I did find old links through >google, but those pages have been removed. I sent off a inquiry to >B&C, but haven't received a response from them. > >Any suggestions on an alternative device? This link will take to >you want I'm attempting to >do: >http://www.verticalpower.com/docs/GPP.pdf They've discontinued individual sales of the crowbar ovm. We've re-tooled and offer the device. A new batch is in production right now. See: https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mini blade fuses At 03:01 PM 2/12/2010, you wrote: > >I'm installing a few electronic devices in the Mooney that call for >inline fuses as circuit protection. I've never been a fan of the >inline glass fuse holders, so I'm looking at inline blade fuse >holders instead. Then, since smaller is better (or so I think), I'm >specifically looking at the mini blade fuse holders. > >The problem is that these devices specify a fuse rating of one amp >(or sometimes less), and the smallest mini blade fuses I'm finding >are 2 amps. I don't think that will really be harmful, but I want >to follow the instructions as closely as possible. > >So, with that explanation, are there sources of one-amp or lower >rated mini blade fuses? 1A is as small as I've ever seen . . . and most auto-stores only stock them down to 3A. 1A and 2A were part of the inventory I sold B&C some years ago. They appear on their website at: http://www.bandc.biz/atctypefuse.aspx Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Eliminate the Starter Contactor? At 11:27 AM 2/12/2010, you wrote: > >Bob, >I have a B&C starter with the attached solenoid. The solenoid ( >which is attached to the case of the starter) has a wire from the >starter to the solenoid. I would like to cut the jumper wire to the >solenoid and wire that wire directly to the starter switch there by >eliminating the need for the starter contactor relay. Will that >work? Or should I still use the starter contactor relay. I have >several A&P's tell me the starter contactor is not needed. They >said wire the starter switch directly to the starter >solenoid. Another party said I would get an amp surge from the >starter solenoid back to my starter switch and it would cause >premature failure of the starter switch contacts. So what is the answer? See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery desulfators . . . At 11:42 AM 2/12/2010, you wrote: >It was listed as a "non-aviation" device, but I'd be interested in >your comments on it. >http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/batteryminder11-11671.php The Battery Minders and Battery Tenders are both quite suitable for any 12V lead acid battery . . . whether it's used in an airplane or your garden tractor. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:42 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Warm Alternator About 4 years ago I mentioned the same thing with my new Nippondenso 40 amp alternator. If the IGN wire (itty- bitty wire) is powered up then my alternator indeed draws field current from the B+ terminal. Obviously it can't draw any current when the OV contactor is switched off to disconnect both the B+ line and the IGN wire from the battery. Some alternators also seem to draw a mA or so of standby current from the B+ lead. Anyway the OV contactor eliminates all current draw if the aircraft sits for long periods or if there is an internal alternator problem. 320 happy and worry free hours on it so far. Ken Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 07:21 PM 2/11/2010, you wrote: >> Had an interesting discovery today. I was charging the battery on my >> RV-7A and had the Master on and the Dynon Flt-Dek 180 on while I was >> doing some calibrations. When I got out of the airplane I felt the >> alternator an it was warm to the touch. When I turned the Master and >> Dynon off it soon dropped to ambient temp. Do I have something wrong >> in my wiring? Or would this be normally expected given the >> circumstances described. I have wired the plane in accordance with >> the Z-13 diagram but have the internally regulated alternator until I >> need to change it. > > If the bus is hot and the engine not running and > assuming further that the alternator's internal > regulator is not fitted with a "stationary alternator > detection system" then the regulator will run the > field at full bus voltage and draw about 3 amps. > This is on the order of 40-50 watts of heat > being dissipated within the alternator. If Z-13, > then do you have absolute control of the alternator > via the ity-bity wire that goes into the back of > the alternator? Was your master switch fully ON > (BATT + ALT) or just up to the mid (BATT ONLY) > position? > > Bob . . . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.