Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:55 AM - Re: Mini blade fuses (Dan Brown)
2. 08:27 AM - Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... (Eric M. Jones)
3. 09:52 AM - Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 10:22 AM - GPU for Piper (Chuck Jensen)
5. 10:53 AM - Z-13 question (jonlaury)
6. 11:30 AM - Re: GPU for Piper (Bruce Gray)
7. 02:11 PM - Re: Z-13 question (B Tomm)
8. 03:14 PM - Re: GPU for Piper (Chuck Jensen)
9. 03:39 PM - Re: GPU for Piper (n801bh@netzero.com)
10. 04:00 PM - Re: GPU for Piper (Chuck Jensen)
11. 04:52 PM - Re: GPU for Piper (ROGER & JEAN CURTIS)
12. 06:10 PM - Re: GPU for Piper (Allen Fulmer)
13. 07:50 PM - Re: GPU for Piper (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:03 PM - Re: Z-13 question (Bob McCallum)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Mini blade fuses |
On 2/12/10 9:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> inventory I sold B&C some years ago. They appear on their
> website at:
>
> http://www.bandc.biz/atctypefuse.aspx
These are the ATC fuses, and I was actually looking for the ATM--but
what I'm finding at Mouser and such for 1A ATM fuses requires a large
order and a long lead time. ATC it is, then. Thanks!
Message 2
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Subject: | Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... |
Perhaps the stars are misaligned, but I keep getting calls like this:
"I bought your PowerSchottky Diode and it has voltage both ways. Don't you check
this stuff before sending it out?..."
"I bought your Powerlink Jr. III 35 amp relay and it won't turn (on or)off...the
output still has voltage..."
I could go on. I often forget that in the "basic electricity" world the existence
of a voltage is presumed by many to mean something is ON. I need to include
a "This means nothing at all" note in my instruction manuals.
Solid state devices often use "pull-down" (or pull-up) resistors to prevent outputs
from "floating". But this is done to prevent odd things from happening--
not usually to prevent voltmeters from reading something silly.
Now this is not a unique characteristic of solid state devices. Any typical electromechanical
relay will have some voltage on its power output lugs whether it
is on or off, only the impedance will be different. A voltmeter with no load
is pretty useless (but hey, it could be made to give nonsensical readings on
those ghost-hunter shows).
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286277#286277
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... |
At 10:26 AM 2/13/2010, you wrote:
Perhaps the stars are misaligned, but I keep getting calls like this:
"I bought your PowerSchottky Diode and it has voltage both ways.
Don't you check this stuff before sending it out?..."
"I bought your Powerlink Jr. III 35 amp relay and it won't turn (on
or)off...the output still has voltage..."
I could go on. I often forget that in the "basic electricity" world
the existence of a voltage is presumed by many to mean something is
ON. I need to include a "This means nothing at all" note in my
instruction manuals.
Solid state devices often use "pull-down" (or pull-up) resistors to
prevent outputs from "floating". But this is done to prevent odd
things from happening-- not usually to prevent voltmeters from
reading something silly.
Now this is not a unique characteristic of solid state devices. Any
typical electromechanical relay will have some voltage on its power
output lugs whether it is on or off, only the impedance will be
different. A voltmeter with no load is pretty useless (but hey, it
could be made to give nonsensical readings on those ghost-hunter shows).
May I suggest some words in your download/handout
literature that speaks to errors of deduction that
arise from errors of measurement? Some simple test
procedures can stand off many unhappy returns from
customers that do not understand the physics of our
art.
While multi-meters still had pointers moving over
scale plates behind glass, there was no such thing
as a VOLT METER. The meters were in fact sensors of
current. They could be made to display voltage by
placing a resistor in series with the instrument. E.g.
a 0-1 milliampere meter movement might be placed in
series with a 20K resistor and be fitted with a scale
plate that reads from 0 to 20 volts. With a sensitivity
of 1000 ohms/volt, this device would have yielded
better data for your un-educated customers. During
this same era, we had to go out of our way to craft
voltmeters with VERY high sensitivities (Vacuum Tube
Voltmeters) that would not load a voltage node driven
by a particularly high impedance.
Even with all the accuracy and non-loading effects
of modern digital voltmeters at DC, they present a whole
NEW problem when attempting the measure voltage at nodes
where there are radio frequency components riding on
the DC. The old VTVM had a resistor (1 to 10 megohms)
built into the probe right at the tip. The modern digital
meter expects to tell you what the voltage is a end
ends of some long wire leads.
I have adapted a 'scope probe to a 3/4" banana plug
such that I can scale any of several digital meters
by a factor of 10 while taking advantage of the
very low capacitance/high resistance loads presented
by the 'scope probe.
Our customer base is the amateur airplane builder.
By definition, they're NOT professionals in the
broad spectrum of skill sets applicable to the
task. Hence, the events you've cited should be
expected on some level. I'm disappointed to report
that the ranks of those who truly understand the
physics of our art are getting pretty thin . . .
even amongst professionals with credentials that
suggest otherwise.
The market we have is the market we have. We can
choose to service it with what's necessary and
useful to move the various projects ahead or
. . . the alternatives are obvious.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Does anyone know of an (relatively) inexpensive source for a ground power unit
(GPU) that can be plugged into the wall that can be used for powering a plane's
panel, such as a Piper Meridian or Malibu for doing armchair flying to sort
through GPS controls, et al? Piper wants 2-3 thousand, which seems pricey, by
not surprising. Surely there is a more man's substitute available?
Chuck Jensen
Message 5
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I have an all-electric airplane and am using Z-13 with a 40a stby alt. All mandatory
engine power (EFI, IGN, etc) is on the battery bus
As I understand Z-13, if the battery has a short , it takes down the battery bus,
the redundant alternators notwithstanding, as there is no disconnect from the
battery/batt bus. It seems that putting a DPST ON-ON switch between Batt Bus
and Batt position & Alt 2 position would allow one to isolate a problematic
battery and supply Alt 2 power to the Batt Bus and keeping the prop going round.
I recognize that this defeats the bonehead-proof design of a hot battery bus, but
adds an option should there be a battery problem. I'm not sure if it's a benefit
or not.
I would wire the two switch poles together to the batt buss, both sides of position
one to the battery, both sides of position 2 to Alt 2. I think I'm buying
some switch redundancy with a DPST.
What do you all think?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286296#286296
Message 6
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A 28v/30a regulated power supply and a jumper cable should be all that
is needed.
My PS is manufactured by Astron. (VLS 35M, about $400)
http://www.astroncorp.com/showpage.asp?p=6
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 1:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
Does anyone know of an (relatively) inexpensive source for a ground
power unit (GPU) that can be plugged into the wall that can be used for
powering a plane's panel, such as a Piper Meridian or Malibu for doing
armchair flying to sort through GPS controls, et al? Piper wants 2-3
thousand, which seems pricey, by not surprising. Surely there is a more
man's substitute available?
Chuck Jensen
Message 7
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John,
I don't think it's a good idea.
I don't believe that a "short" is a failure mode for a battery that you
should be concerned with because it is too rare especially on a well
maintained battery. Perhaps you meant a single shorted cell, while also
rare but if it did happen, would still produce enough current at an
acceptable voltage to run EFI, or so I believe.
Adding switches or relays to add control of the battery bus obviously adds
failure points which I think would be orders of magnitude more likely than a
"shorted" battery.
If your main alternator (electrical energy generator) fails, the battery
(electrical energy reservoir) is a short term back up and should be sized to
power your essential loads longer than your total onboard fuel supply. You
have a second alternator, so that is your indefinite backup (in my opinion).
If your battery is always maintained and replaced regularly, I don't think
you will ever go without sufficient electrons at-the-ready.
My opinions only. Others may disagree.
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonlaury
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:51 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 question
--> <jonlaury@impulse.net>
I have an all-electric airplane and am using Z-13 with a 40a stby alt. All
mandatory engine power (EFI, IGN, etc) is on the battery bus
As I understand Z-13, if the battery has a short , it takes down the battery
bus, the redundant alternators notwithstanding, as there is no disconnect
from the battery/batt bus. It seems that putting a DPST ON-ON switch between
Batt Bus and Batt position & Alt 2 position would allow one to isolate a
problematic battery and supply Alt 2 power to the Batt Bus and keeping the
prop going round.
I recognize that this defeats the bonehead-proof design of a hot battery
bus, but adds an option should there be a battery problem. I'm not sure if
it's a benefit or not.
I would wire the two switch poles together to the batt buss, both sides of
position one to the battery, both sides of position 2 to Alt 2. I think I'm
buying some switch redundancy with a DPST.
What do you all think?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286296#286296
Message 8
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Thanks, Bruce...but then, I suppose one has to hook that up to the Piper plug,
which is only overpriced by about double. Nonetheless, your link was a good one.
Thanks,
Chuck Jensen
Diversified Technologies
2680 Westcott Blvd
Knoxville, TN 37931
Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
Cell: 865-406-9001
Fax: 865-539-9001
cjensen@dts9000.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce
Gray
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
A 28v/30a regulated power supply and a jumper cable should be all that
is needed.
My PS is manufactured by Astron. (VLS 35M, about $400)
http://www.astroncorp.com/showpage.asp?p=6
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 1:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
Does anyone know of an (relatively) inexpensive source for a ground
power unit (GPU) that can be plugged into the wall that can be used for
powering a plane's panel, such as a Piper Meridian or Malibu for doing
armchair flying to sort through GPS controls, et al? Piper wants 2-3
thousand, which seems pricey, by not surprising. Surely there is a more
man's substitute available?
Chuck Jensen
Message 9
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Go to any auto parts store... Look for Cole Hersee part #
11042 plug
With ground return terminal. Brass female contact with spring
grip tension provides solid engagement with the mating socket.
Cable clamp holds cable firmly in place.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
.com>
Thanks, Bruce...but then, I suppose one has to hook that up to the Piper
plug, which is only overpriced by about double. Nonetheless, your link
was a good one.
Thanks,
Chuck Jensen
Diversified Technologies
2680 Westcott Blvd
Knoxville, TN 37931
Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
Cell: 865-406-9001
Fax: 865-539-9001
cjensen@dts9000.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce
Gray
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
>
A 28v/30a regulated power supply and a jumper cable should be all that
is needed.
My PS is manufactured by Astron. (VLS 35M, about $400)
http://www.astroncorp.com/showpage.asp?p=6
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 1:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
Does anyone know of an (relatively) inexpensive source for a ground
power unit (GPU) that can be plugged into the wall that can be used for
powering a plane's panel, such as a Piper Meridian or Malibu for doing
armchair flying to sort through GPS controls, et al? Piper wants 2-3
thousand, which seems pricey, by not surprising. Surely there is a more
man's substitute available?
Chuck Jensen
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
____________________________________________________________
Love Spell
Click here to light up your life with a love spell!
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=BZFRgpccG3kVJsWTzIFa5
AAAJ1GgTD6yWnN9nTOcXhzb7nn5AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
wAAAAA
Message 10
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Thanks for the refresher, Ben, I recall of having seen that part number
before and it may well suit my purposes.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 6:37 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
Go to any auto parts store... Look for Cole Hersee part #
11042 plug
With ground return terminal. Brass female contact with spring
grip tension provides solid engagement with the mating socket.
Cable clamp holds cable firmly in place.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
Thanks, Bruce...but then, I suppose one has to hook that up to the Piper
plug, which is only overpriced by about double. Nonetheless, your link
was a good one.
Thanks,
Chuck Jensen
Diversified Technologies
2680 Westcott Blvd
Knoxville, TN 37931
Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
Cell: 865-406-9001
Fax: 865-539-9001
cjensen@dts9000.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce
Gray
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
<bgray@glasair.org>
A 28v/30a regulated power supply and a jumper cable should be all that
is needed.
My PS is manufactured by Astron. (VLS 35M, about $400)
http://www.astroncorp.com/showpage.asp?p=6
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 1:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
Does anyone know of an (relatively) inexpensive source for a ground
power unit (GPU) that can be plugged into the wall that can be used for
powering a plane's panel, such as a Piper Meridian or Malibu for doing
armchair flying to sort through GPS controls, et al? Piper wants 2-3
thousand, which seems pricey, by not surprising. Surely there is a more
man's substitute
available======================
======================sp;
-Ma========================
==================
____________________________________________________________
Love Spell
<http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2242/c?cp=BZFRgpccG3kVJsWTzIFa5
AAAJ1GgTD6yWnN9nTOcXhzb7nn5AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARw
AAAAA=>
Click here to light up your life with a love spell!
Message 11
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==> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen"
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
Does anyone know of an (relatively) inexpensive source for a ground
power unit (GPU) that can be plugged into the wall that can be used for
powering a plane's panel, such as a Piper Meridian or Malibu for doing
armchair flying to sort through GPS controls, et al? Piper wants 2-3
thousand, which seems pricey, by not surprising. Surely there is a more
man's substitute available
Chuck,
If I understand correctly, that you want to operate the electronics without
the engine running. If this is the case, why not just connect a battery
maintainer to your battery, plug it in, and it will keep your battery at
full charge while running the electronics, provided you have a maintainer
with enough capacity. I would assume you would not need more than about 10
amps, so it would not take a very large unit to accomplish this task.
Roger
Message 12
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Not sure if this is actually relevant to the original question but I bought
the Cole Hersee Piper style socket and plug from Aircraft Spruce after
reading Bob N's article on modifying for our OBAM aircraft.
ACS catalog page:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/2010Individual/Cat10463.pdf
AeroElectric connection article:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
Socket and plug seemed kind of heavy to me? Socket was 10 oz. and plug was
7.2 oz. I guess I really might not have needed the plug as FBO is supposed
to have this on his "battery cart?"
Not sure if I am going to use it but it is not decision time yet.
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Finishing wiring
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
Go to any auto parts store... Look for Cole Hersee part #
11042 plug
With ground return terminal. Brass female contact with spring
grip tension provides solid engagement with the mating socket.
Cable clamp holds cable firmly in place.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
Thanks, Bruce...but then, I suppose one has to hook that up to the Piper
plug, which is only overpriced by about double. Nonetheless, your link was
a good one.
Thanks,
Chuck Jensen
Diversified Technologies
2680 Westcott Blvd
Knoxville, TN 37931
Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
Cell: 865-406-9001
Fax: 865-539-9001
cjensen@dts9000.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bruce
Gray
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
A 28v/30a regulated power supply and a jumper cable should be all that
is needed.
My PS is manufactured by Astron. (VLS 35M, about $400)
http://www.astroncorp.com/showpage.asp?p=6
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 1:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPU for Piper
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
Does anyone know of an (relatively) inexpensive source for a ground
power unit (GPU) that can be plugged into the wall that can be used for
powering a plane's panel, such as a Piper Meridian or Malibu for doing
armchair flying to sort through GPS controls, et al? Piper wants 2-3
thousand, which seems pricey, by not surprising. Surely there is a more
man's substitute
available==================================================================
===========================================================================
=sp; -Ma==========================================
____________________________________________________________
Love Spell
<http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2242/c?cp=BZFRgpccG3kVJsWTzIFa5AAAJ1
GgTD6yWnN9nTOcXhzb7nn5AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARwAAAAA=>
Click here to light up your life with a love spell!
Message 13
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At 08:08 PM 2/13/2010, you wrote:
>Not sure if this is actually relevant to the original question but I
>bought the Cole Hersee Piper style socket and plug from Aircraft
>Spruce after reading Bob N's article on modifying for our OBAM aircraft.
>
>ACS catalog page:
><http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/2010Individual/Cat10463.pdf>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/2010Individual/Cat10463.pdf
>
>AeroElectric connection article:
><http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>
>Socket and plug seemed kind of heavy to me? Socket was 10 oz. and
>plug was 7.2 oz. I guess I really might not have needed the plug as
>FBO is supposed to have this on his "battery cart?"
Yup . . . that's the general rule. Actually, the
"Piper" connector is a lighter, lower cost
alternative to the AN2551 found on other brands
and the heavier Piper aircraft. The C.H. 11041
and mating connector was originally created for
the ground based vehicles market like OTR trucks
and electric fork-lifts. I've used this connector
on several 100+ AMP test systems for really BIG
motors. To my knowledge, Piper was the only folk
who used this connector on the lighter singles. I'm
pretty sure all Brand C and Brand B airplanes used
the AN2551. Any FBO worth his ground power revenues
will have both.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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John;
See embedded comments. These are not intended in any way to be "smart assed"
just trying to illustrate my personal opinion and understanding of the
question.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonlaury
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 1:51 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 question
>
>
> I have an all-electric airplane and am using Z-13 with a 40a stby alt. All
mandatory
> engine power (EFI, IGN, etc) is on the battery bus
>
> As I understand Z-13, if the battery has a short(with a modern properly
maintained AGM/VRLA battery this is about as likely as the engine mount
falling off) , it takes down the battery bus, the
> redundant alternators notwithstanding, as there is no disconnect from the
> battery/batt bus. ( not quite true as the battery with a shorted cell
(which doesn't happen) will likely still supply sufficient power to keep the
engine running especially when supported by an operating alternator. If the
alternator has sufficient reserve capacity it will "cook" the battery but
all of this will take some time giving you ample opportunity to safely land)
It seems that putting a DPST ON-ON switch between Batt Bus and
> Batt position & Alt 2 position would allow one to isolate a problematic
battery and
> supply Alt 2 power to the Batt Bus and keeping the prop going round.
(assuming your particular alternator will function without a battery, and
you don't switch a load which stalls it)
>
> I recognize that this defeats the bonehead-proof design of a hot battery
bus, but adds
> an option should there be a battery problem. I'm not sure if it's a
benefit or not. In my opinion it's not.
>
> I would wire the two switch poles together to the batt buss, both sides
of position
> one to the battery, both sides of position 2 to Alt 2. I think I'm buying
some switch
> redundancy with a DPST. (and when one pole of the switch fails ON how does
the second pole help you turn it off??)
>
> What do you all think?
I think it's a bad idea to play with a tried and true design which has had a
lot of thought about failure modes put into it and try to second guess what
"might" happen. Most of the "Z" figures represent electrical systems which
are so superior to anything found in the average "production vehicle" (be it
airborne or ground based) that your worries are unfounded. Batteries don't
magically "fail", engines don't just fall off, prop bolts don't shear. All
of these failures are so rare as to be ignored. That's not to say that
batteries shouldn't be maintained and tested, engine mount integrity
examined and prop bolts checked, but these failure possibilities don't
warrant backups. (How would you propose to backup an engine mount for
example? You just have to trust that it won't fail.)
>
> John
>
>
Bob McC
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