---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/18/10: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:01 AM - Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (tomcostanza) 2. 05:16 AM - Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite (LINDA WALKER) 3. 05:29 AM - Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite (n395v) 4. 05:48 AM - For you workers in wood (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:11 AM - Re: Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite (Werner Schneider) 6. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite () 7. 07:41 AM - Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (Bob White) 8. 07:48 AM - Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (Speedy11@aol.com) 9. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 08:16 AM - Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:28 AM - Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite (rampil) 12. 08:31 AM - Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... (rampil) 13. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 08:47 AM - Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (Ron Quillin) 15. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 17. 11:42 AM - Failure modes with Z12 (Jeff Page) 18. 12:37 PM - Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (Bob White) 19. 02:00 PM - Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis (Richard Tasker) 20. 02:03 PM - Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... (rampil) 21. 07:03 PM - Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... (Dave) 22. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... (BobsV35B@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:21 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis From: "tomcostanza" If I remember correctly, the wire-wrap technique was only for microamp level circuits; a few milliamps at the most. I never saw any wire-wraps for the approx 1 amp that the contactor would need. Or am I mistaken? Clear Skies, Tom -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286910#286910 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:01 AM PST US From: "LINDA WALKER" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite Help! The backlight yesterday went on my Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS G4 Lite! Possibly, and hopefully, this is an inverter issue, and not the display itself. As this company no longer exists, can anyone suggest the best method for getting this sort of problem rectified? Are the circuit board schematics for their products available anywhere? Any help much appreciated. Patrick Elliott, Reigate, Surrey, England. Long-Ez, G-LGEZ. ----- Original Message ----- From: "AeroElectric-List Digest Server" Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 02/17/10 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:29 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite From: "n395v" Best to go to the BMA website or www.vansairforce.net and advertise for G4 lite wanted. Or watch e bay. One or 2 sold recently for less than$500. Also try calling Greg Richter- 404-434-3990 apparently sometimes he answers and may be able to tell you how to fix it. -------- Milt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286915#286915 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: For you workers in wood I've been acquiring some new skills in my Dad's refurbished shop. I've been building shelves and benches for the new digs and cabinets for the house in Lindsborg KS where Dr. Dee teaches. I've owned several sets of dado blades and was reasonably satisfied with their work product until this week . . . One of the M.L. locals is a cabinet builder who knew my dad. He stopped by about a week ago when he saw the garage door open. During our conversation he noted an old dado set I had laying on the table and remarked that I might like to try a Freud brand dado set. I read up on them and found a range of prices that were probably related to quality/capability. I sucked in a breath and ordered a 6" model 206 for about $80 (about 2x what I usually spent on dado sets). Got it in the mail last Monday and got a chance to try it today. What a tool! Very nicely crafted. very precise and wonderfully smooth-bottom grooves. Very little splintering of cross cuts on oak faced plywood. If anyone on the List has occasion to build shelves or fixtures that would benefit from tight, square joints in solid or plywood, I can report that the new blade-set is worth every dime I spent on it. I'm also working on a fixture that will allow dado cuts across lumber as wide as 24" on a relatively short table saw. I'll report on that when reasonably perfected. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:19 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite Or go and buy a Dynon Skyview and get 1000$ for your broken G4 Werner On 18.02.2010 14:28, n395v wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "n395v" > > Best to go to the BMA website or www.vansairforce.net and advertise for G4 lite wanted. Or watch e bay. One or 2 sold recently for less than$500. > > Also try calling Greg Richter- 404-434-3990 > > apparently sometimes he answers and may be able to tell you how to fix it. > > -------- > Milt > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286915#286915 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite From: I agree, BMA - don't even go there. they haven't updated that product since the Clinton administration. So many people have had issues with their systems - why torture yourself. Get a Dynon, call Approach FastStack and get a cable, plug it in, hook up a power and ground lead and fly away. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner Schneider Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:42 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite Or go and buy a Dynon Skyview and get 1000$ for your broken G4 Werner On 18.02.2010 14:28, n395v wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "n395v" > > Best to go to the BMA website or www.vansairforce.net and advertise for G4 lite wanted. Or watch e bay. One or 2 sold recently for less than$500. > > Also try calling Greg Richter- 404-434-3990 > > apparently sometimes he answers and may be able to tell you how to fix it. > > -------- > Milt > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286915#286915 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:06 AM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis I remember using the "no strip" technique many years ago. As I recall, the wrap tool did slit the insulation as it was wrapped around the post so that bare wire was wrapped onto the post. Bob W. On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:30:03 -0600 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 10:22 PM 2/17/2010, you wrote: > >I'm feeling old... My only hands-on experimental > >circuit making was pre-digital. Over the > >years I'd pickup electronics mags and see > >references to "wire wrapped" terminals and never > >had a clue what it referred to. Now I get it... Thanks. > > > >Bill > > see: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_wrap > > This is the modern incarnation used on complex backplanes > where gazillion-layer boards are impractical. The no-strip > version is from way-back-when and it didn't hang around > long. > > Bob . . . > > > > > > -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com Now Rotary Powered Alpine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwceNc2ydN8 Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:15 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis Bob, That was one of the most educational episodes ever on the Aeroelectric Connection. You removed some of the mystery for us. Thanks, Stan Sutterfield Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis At 05:58 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > > >If I remember correctly, the wire-wrap technique was only for >microamp level circuits; a few milliamps at the most. I never saw >any wire-wraps for the approx 1 amp that the contactor would >need. Or am I mistaken? Yes, but that was more a function of wire size and size of the post in the specific process. If one adequately understood the physics behind making such joints on 4-cornered posts with the appropriate insulation and tools, I have no doubt that this contactor design could exploit the process. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:19 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis At 09:37 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > >I remember using the "no strip" technique many years ago. As I recall, >the wrap tool did slit the insulation as it was wrapped around the >post so that bare wire was wrapped onto the post. Yeah . . . I recall that. It WAS a pretty specialized wrapping tool. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: BMA Efis G4 Lite From: "rampil" Actually, according to Larry on the BMA site, they are trying to handle hardware repairs. Check out the bulletin board site. BMA hardware in the field was no less reliable than Dynon or any other non cert hardware. Its been 2 years since BMA stopped development, Dynon still has not caught up with the useful feature list. The main problem with the BMA hardware was that it assumed at least a high school education in electricity to install. Apparently this was a bad assumption. Greg had actually assumed that users would actually want to calibrate their sensors, turns out most installers did not know what that actually meant since no one does it for antediluvian analog hardware. Most people accept 20% accuracy and never know the difference. I used a gold box for 4 years before upgrading to a G4. Never had a hardware problem that was not of my own creation. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286953#286953 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:05 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... From: "rampil" On the other hand, there's the observation in the Avionics-List last Friday that noted if there was any electrical (not even electronic) literacy, out there, the traffic on this List would drop by 90%. I would think Bob's Seminars would be much more popular! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286954#286954 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:38 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis At 09:45 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: >Bob, >That was one of the most educational episodes ever on the >Aeroelectric Connection. >You removed some of the mystery for us. >Thanks, My pleasure my friend . . . it's an extension of a number of tasks I accomplished on the TC side of the house for many years. It was frustrating to me that folks making $multi-million$ decisions had so little knowledge of the physics that described the failure . . . even less on the physics that was proposed to fix it. It took me nearly 8 years to get a brake friction material changed on a motor that was breaking shafts due to a vibration that literally screamed at the most casual observer. I explored dozens of arm-chair suppositions only to return to the original hypothesis and proposal for a fix. Finally got it done but not after a bucket full of money in warranty costs and customer dis-satisfaction went down the drain. I still have a copy of a 6-page letter I wrote to the V.P. of Engineering describing in minute detail how the shafts were failing . . . delighted to receive an e-mail inviting me to a working lunch. Was astounded to find that he wanted to discuss the letter for about 2 minutes and talk about fishing the rest of the time . . . sigh. Here on the list we have a unique opportunity to tap the combined knowledge and experience of folks who's paychecks and promotions do not depend on smoothing the feathers of superiors that know even less about the problem. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:49 AM PST US From: Ron Quillin Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis At 08:14 2/18/2010, you wrote: >Yeah . . . I recall that. It WAS a pretty specialized > wrapping tool. > > Bob . . . Frightning; I still have and can locate the auto strip bit for my electric Gardner WW tool! Ron Q do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:22 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... At 10:29 AM 2/18/2010, you wrote: > >On the other hand, there's the observation in the Avionics-List last Friday >that noted if there was any electrical (not even electronic) literacy, out >there, the traffic on this List would drop by 90%. Not sure that's true . . . folks gravitate into groups for a host of reasons. I suspect the participation here is mixed. Certainly there are individuals who seek customer service style yes/no answers to immediate decisions/problems. It has always been my goal that this be more of a classroom than a "customer support" activity. And given the size of the list (about 1700 at last count) and relatively low traffic, I suspect that most are here to expand their horizons. This is why I (and I'm sure most others) welcome information and ideas that help us DO things with cgreater onfidence, understanding and competence. >I would think Bob's Seminars would be much more popular! I've been rethinking the weekend seminar format as a teaching tool. It's a drink-from-a-firehose which probably has a lower rate of retention than a 3-hour college course . . . which also has a demonstrably poor retention rate. I've been watching my 2.5 year old grandson with great interest. We humans are blessed with a great deal of potential but the process by which that potential is exploited is torturously slow. Retention of ideas and acquisition of skill comes with close attention and interest over long periods of time. The most capable among us did not get that way by taking a course. They acquired it over years of hands-on activity and often in the company of true teachers. This is why Mr. C's parents and grandparents are attentive to the idea that every day experiences should to be framed as teaching moments. What is that? How does it work? Is it easy to break? Can it hurt you? Are there inappropriate usages that attack the liberty of others or destroys property? I'm not suggesting that this little guy is being treated like a high-school student . . . certainly everything offered has to be tailored to his level of understanding. But the process of becoming 'educated' goes far beyond any time one spends in the formal classroom. One gets and holds his attention by making it fun. The AeroElectric-List is an opportunity for the interested and attentive to read about ideas and their supporting physics go by over as long much time as one is willing to expend on the effort. This is why I encourage folks to write about any whippy new discovery, any unexplained event (contactor failures?), or ask any question. It's then up to those who can contribute to an exploration of the question or understanding of the answers have an opportunity to become true teachers. We all have things to learn, things to offer and opportunities to share in the pleasure of advancing our collective art. The process is slow and laborious . . . and the older we get, the more laborious it becomes. One of my teachers once opined, "The day you stop learning the first day of your decline toward insignificance." Mr. C is one of my strongest motives to add to my own catalog of understanding and skills to share with him as he grows up. Folks here on the list are participants in that task. You all contribute to expansion of my own horizons which I will ultimately pass down to the next generation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:52 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... rampil wrote: > > On the other hand, there's the observation in the Avionics-List last Friday > that noted if there was any electrical (not even electronic) literacy, out > there, the traffic on this List would drop by 90%. > > I would think Bob's Seminars would be much more popular! > > -------- > Ira N224XS > I think the level of electrical, and even electronic, literacy is a bit higher here than one might think. An analogy I might make is with instrument flight. I'm IFR literate (talk the talk, been there-done that, remember most rules, read most pubs), but not proficient or current. Having grown up with my Dad's scratch built TV, testing vacuum tubes for fun, studying for my Class III, practicing morse code, recyling components from surplus boards, and building pre-proportional RC aircraft, I'm electrically literate but not proficient or current. And 30+ years in the computer industry doesn't necessarily cover the same ground. For those of us not in the business or practicing an electrical/electronics hobby on a daily basis, this list is a pretty good substitute. Of course fooling around with OBAM aircraft can be an electrically engaging pursuit... and I think what we all see here is a lot of literate people building skills while regaining a little currency and proficiency as they work their projects. Ohm's law?? On at least 2 occassions over the last year I can recall relearning that simple little equation as a fuse fried or some unit dimmed. I learned it, I know what it is, but haven't applied it in so long that a little rediscovery is to be expected. Anyway, I'm REALLY enjoying this list and everyone on it. Thanks to Bob in particular. Bill "losing proficiency with sanding block in hand" Watson ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:41 AM PST US From: Jeff Page Subject: AeroElectric-List: Failure modes with Z12 I am still vacillating between Z13/8 and Z12. I intend to use two electronic ignitions. The only thing that concerns me is an overvoltage event that burns out both ignitions. Probably very rare, considering the robust design, but perhaps a lightning strike, or the failure of an overvoltage module ? Z12 would isolate the two and alleviate my concern. Second, I frequently cruise at 2200rpm and the output of the SD-8 would be only about 5A. For 0.8 pounds and $79 more, with an insignificant balance improvement, I can buy a 40A and 20A alternator instead, which is very tempting. The concept of the essential bus diode is not used in Z12, so now we get to my question. It appears that after a failure of either battery contactor, there is no configuration to supply power to the corresponding battery bus. So duration of flight is limited by the battery capacity, rather than the capacity of the remaining alternator to supply all the ships loads with the cross feed contactor engaged. What change could be safely made to provide power to both battery buses without negatively impacting other features of Z12 ? Thanks ! Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:27 PM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:42:28 -0800 Ron Quillin wrote: > At 08:14 2/18/2010, you wrote: > >Yeah . . . I recall that. It WAS a pretty specialized > > wrapping tool. > > > > Bob . . . > > Frightning; > I still have and can locate the auto strip bit for my electric Gardner WW tool! > > Ron Q > > do not archive OK, I got curious. You can still buy the thing from Digikey: http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/996077-tool-slit-n-wrap-manual-w-28-p184-1.html I can't believe they are charging $232 for one of those things. I'm sure I didn't pay anything like that. I might even be able to find my old one if anybody want a real deal. :) Bob W. -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com Now Rotary Powered Alpine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwceNc2ydN8 Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:27 PM PST US From: Richard Tasker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S701 Contactor Failure Analysis Yeah, I know. I recently looked to see if the OK Industry wrap/strip/unwrap tool I have was still available. My jaw dropped when I found out the answer is yes and it costs $34.33 from Digikey! Do not archive Bob White wrote: > On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:42:28 -0800 > Ron Quillin wrote: > > >> At 08:14 2/18/2010, you wrote: >> >>> Yeah . . . I recall that. It WAS a pretty specialized >>> wrapping tool. >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >> Frightning; >> I still have and can locate the auto strip bit for my electric Gardner WW tool! >> >> Ron Q >> >> do not archive >> > OK, I got curious. You can still buy the thing from Digikey: > http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/996077-tool-slit-n-wrap-manual-w-28-p184-1.html > > I can't believe they are charging $232 for one of those things. I'm > sure I didn't pay anything like that. I might even be able to find my > old one if anybody want a real deal. :) > > Bob W. > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... From: "rampil" Hey Bill, Just remember that wax on - wax off with a sanding block generates proficiency too (and muscles)! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287030#287030 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:11 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... > > > I've been rethinking the weekend seminar format as > a teaching tool. It's a drink-from-a-firehose which > probably has a lower rate of retention than a 3-hour > college course . . . which also has a demonstrably poor > retention rate. Bob, I would love to attend one of your seminars, but due to the distance, work and a number of other reasons of life getting in the way of life, I have been unable to participate. Have you considered a set of seminar dvds. Even though they seminars are a drink from the firehose. The dvd/s could allow a review as required and a chance for some of us to drink from the firehose who may never get to drink in person. Thanks for all of your contributions to the OBAM world. Dave > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:45 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Basic Electricity....Grrrrr......... Good Evening Dave, I was able to attend one of Bob's seminars near Milwaukee a couple of years ago. Well worth the time and if the opportunity presents itself. I will attend again. Firehose or not, well worth the time! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 2/18/2010 9:04:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, dave@coltnet.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave" > > > I've been rethinking the weekend seminar format as > a teaching tool. It's a drink-from-a-firehose which > probably has a lower rate of retention than a 3-hour > college course . . . which also has a demonstrably poor > retention rate. Bob, I would love to attend one of your seminars, but due to the distance, work and a number of other reasons of life getting in the way of life, I have been unable to participate. Have you considered a set of seminar dvds. Even though they seminars are a drink from the firehose. The dvd/s could allow a review as required and a chance for some of us to drink from the firehose who may never get to drink in person. Thanks for all of your contributions to the OBAM world. Dave > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.