Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:42 AM - Strobe power ground? (jayb)
2. 04:49 AM - Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft? (sonex293)
3. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft? (Carlos Trigo)
4. 05:28 AM - RFC: My external power schematic (mouser)
5. 05:29 AM - Re: Stick drawing for warning lights (Eric M. Jones)
6. 06:47 AM - Re: Strobe power ground? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:53 AM - Re: Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft? (David)
8. 06:58 AM - Re: RFC: My external power schematic (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:21 AM - Re: Next Generation of OBAM aircraft (Jeff Page)
10. 08:06 AM - Re: Failure modes with Z14 (user9253)
11. 08:13 AM - Re: Failure Modes with Z14 (Ken)
12. 08:13 AM - External Power Options ()
13. 08:22 AM - Re: RFC: My external power schematic (mouser)
14. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Failure modes with Z14 (Ken)
15. 11:40 AM - Re: Strobe power ground? (johngoodman)
16. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
17. 01:54 PM - Re: Re: Strobe power ground? (Peter Pengilly)
18. 03:27 PM - Re: Strobe power ground? (johngoodman)
19. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Strobe power ground? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Strobe power ground? |
I have a Wheelen strobe power pack in the back of an RV-10. My forest of tabs ground
is on the firewall. Should I pull the power pack ground forward or just
ground locally? I can't think of a good reason the strobe would be a ground loop
victim.
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287606#287606
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| Subject: | Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft? |
Kits are available...
http://www.mikrokopter.de/
--
MC
--------
Michael Crowder
Jabiru 3300A w/ Hyd Lifters
AeroCarb w/ #3 needle
Sonex N293SX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287607#287607
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| Subject: | Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft? |
There is also a Portuguese small Tech company doing a similar bird, which I
know has already sold some of these aero-robots to the Military, some Fire
Department, the Homeland Security.Dept and the Agricultural Department.
See http://www.uavision.com/aeronautics/
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sonex293
> Sent: segunda-feira, 22 de Fevereiro de 2010 12:48
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft?
>
>
> Kits are available...
>
> http://www.mikrokopter.de/
>
> --
> MC
>
> --------
> Michael Crowder
> Jabiru 3300A w/ Hyd Lifters
> AeroCarb w/ #3 needle
> Sonex N293SX
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287607#287607
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | RFC: My external power schematic |
I'm about to add in the external power connector to my RV-10 project and I'd like
to get some feedback on my schematic before I implement it. The idea is to
have a small door in the baggage bulkhead which gives access to the standard
3-pin connector, a LED which indicates contactor status, and a switch that gives
some control over how the contactor behaves. The switch will have three
positions:
FORCE: The external power contactor is held closed by the main aircraft battery.
AUTO: The external power contactor is actuated by the signal on the third (small)
pin in the connector.
INHIBIT: The external power contactor will not close, regardless of the signal
on the connector.
The LED next to the switch indicates the contactor status.
I think in my installation the switch and LED will be mounted adjacent to the connector,
as I won't likely need to change the external power contactor behavior
while sitting up front. The only problem with this setup is that when the
switch is set to "FORCE," the LED is always on. So if I walk away and forget
about that, it's a slow drain on the main battery.
I've attached the schematic I'm currently considering.
Comments? Advice?
Thanks,
-Richard
RV-10 #40988
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287612#287612
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/external_power_schematic_208.png
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| Subject: | Re: Stick drawing for warning lights |
Ron,
If I get what you're asking for--there are already symbols for every type of condition
published by ISO. Just Google ISO symbols....
If you have been driven crazy by the ISO symbols already, you can make up your
own using ISO-symbol protocols. Yes, it's a bit much, but it's the only game in
town now. And don't forget the warning for "My God...Don't touch that button!"
"Hell, there are no rules here , we're trying to accomplish something."
--Thomas Edison
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287614#287614
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe power ground? |
At 06:40 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote:
>
>I have a Wheelen strobe power pack in the back of an RV-10. My
>forest of tabs ground is on the firewall. Should I pull the power
>pack ground forward or just ground locally? I can't think of a good
>reason the strobe would be a ground loop victim.
>
>Thanks in advance for your reply.
See illustrations in Figure Z15.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft? |
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| Subject: | Re: RFC: My external power schematic |
At 07:27 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote:
>
><snip>
>I've attached the schematic I'm currently considering.
How would you use these features? What are the
conditions that make them useful? Keep in mind
too that a crow-bar ov module MUST be paired with
a 2-5A breaker or breaker switch capable of
co-existing with this technology. I.e. high interrupt
current ratings. Commercial breakers are suspect. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Breaker_Failure_1a.jpg
Miniature breakers popular with aviation are quite
happy working this task:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Klixon_1.jpg
Let's discuss the ways in which the schematic in
Z-31A falls short of your design goals.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Next Generation of OBAM aircraft |
> Time: 08:45:44 AM PST US
> From: Robert Reed <robertr237@att.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Next generation of OBAM aircraft?
>
> I would love to get one of those to play with and a dozen or so for busines
> s.- Sure would be a lot cheaper method of doing aerial photography among
> other things.- I can see a business in the making
I had the same thought. The kits are in the $2000 range. There are a
few distributors located around the world.
http://www.mikrokopter.de/ucwiki
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
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| Subject: | Re: Failure modes with Z14 |
The battery is NOT the power source for electrical equipment on an aircraft. The
alternator is. Z-13/8 has two alternators. If the main one fails, the aux
alternator will power the ignition. If both alternators fail, the battery is
a backup. Once the engine is running, failure of the battery contactor will
most likely not affect the operation of the alternators. An ignition connected
to the E-bus will keep working after the battery contactor fails, drawing its
power from the alternator as usual. Each ignition should be connected to separate
points of the electrical system so that a bad connection will only affect
one ignition. In Z-13/8 after a battery contactor failure, the battery can
be kept charged by the main alternator through the E-Bus relay or by the aux
alternator. Even if both alternators and the battery contactor fail, the battery
still has enough stored energy to power one ignition for a couple of hours.
The length of time can be determined by doing a load test on the battery.
This is something that should be done periodically anyway. If there are still
concerns of contactor failure, a diode can be placed across the big terminals
of the contactor with the arrow pointing towards the battery. However, this
is not needed or recommended.
Many years ago I had a VW with a 6 volt battery. The generator quit working
(but I did not know it). The engine barely cranked when I started it to go home
after work at night. After a couple of miles, the headlights got dimmer and
dimmer, then the engine quit. Before the car coasted to a stop, I shut off
the headlights and the engine started to run again. There was not much traffic
that late at night. Every time a car approached, I pulled off onto the shoulder
and waited for it to go by. It was hard to see without headlights. I discovered
that the engine would keep running with the turn signal on. So I used
that to see the road, driving very slowly. It took me a couple of hours to
get home, but I made it. The point is that it doesn't take a fully charged battery
to power the ignition.
As for over voltage protection, two OV modules can be used. Then the regulator
would have to fail along with both OV modules before the electronics would
be fried. I do not think these extreme measures are necessary or desired. If
the voltage regulator fails, an alternator properly sized to just barely meet
the expected load will not develop as high of a voltage as a larger alternator
will.
Many things can go wrong on an aircraft. Perhaps a BRS is the answer. But even
those malfunction.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287634#287634
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| Subject: | Re: Failure Modes with Z14 |
Jeff
The 2 little Dekka 8 AH batteries on my Z-14 system are indeed
equivalent to one 16AH battery except for being more expensive. They
have large bolted lead terminals and one will start the subaru. Two are
better when it is very cold. The batteries do what the manufacturer
says. Small batteries with small terminals that are not designed to
start engines will be a different story.
My system does indeed allow charging both batteries with any single
contactor failure. Not a big deal but a consideration with small
batteries. Both alternators feed through their OV contactors to the
respective battery. No second contactor between them and the batteries.
With appropriate component placement I believe that I have no additional
always hot wiring risk with this setup. Because I feed non engine loads
(and cranking current) through a contactor, a failure of that contactor
will kill most other systems but it won't affect the engine. I have
ample battery bus (the cigarette lighter and limited panel lighting),
and handheld backup options for that. I do not have any IFR avionics at
this time.
Your failure concerns do resonate with me. My design was heavily
influenced by the knowledge that it was a one off system by a first time
builder using components placed in a new environment that nullified
previous failure data. That is why Bob's philosophy and Z-14 suited me
so well with an electric dependent engine. Even though electric
components can fail without warning, the engine electrical and EFI
systems are the least of my engine reliability concerns now.
If it helps - yes I did spend some time testing the OV modules and yes
they perform exactly as advertised and the current version simply does
not trip unless there is a real OV event.
Don't overlook ergonomics. Keep your system as operationally simple as
possible. Give some thought to what you actions you will take for
failures and locate controls to make those actions simple and
methodical. Ideally one procedure for all engine problems is ideal.
Ken
snip>
> Some of the features of Z14 I probably don't need. There has been some
> discussion that two smaller batteries cannot delivery the same starter
> current that a single large battery can. Perhaps the solution is a
> modification to Z13/8, whereby the standby alternator is always in use
> to power the second ignition. Isolate that with a cross feed relay and
> add a second small battery. The cross feed relay would be only used to
> route power to the endurance bus after main alternator failure, but not
> to kick in the second battery during starting.
>
> Jeff Page
> Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | External Power Options |
I don't know what everyone is using but I definitely don't want the lead
anchor plug and related equipment I had on My Cherokee. I don't want the
Cessna variety either. These days you're hard pressed to find support
for either after business hours. Finding a 110 plug is much more
feasible.
Couldn't I just use two of the below recessed into my cowling/fuselage
and connect them directly to the battery +/-?
In that way I can just connect my charger and receive the same benefit.
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=2848
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RFC: My external power schematic |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
> Let's discuss the ways in which the schematic in
> Z-31A falls short of your design goals.
>
First, the minor differences:
I put an LED across the solenoid so that I have some immediate feedback that it
is engaged when I think it should be (and not engaged when I think it shouldn't
be). Ran into a problem with this at work one day with a Twin Otter sitting
on the ramp plugged into a generator but the small pin wasn't connected properly
within the plug and never engaged the solenoid. I had no feedback that
this was the case, the ramp was too noisy to hear the solenoid click, and didn't
have direct access to the solenoid to DVM the contacts. Drained the main
batteries (and a fair amount of fuel out of the generator for no reason) without
realizing it.
I also added a second diode reversed across the solenoid, similar to the one you
have across the main battery contactor in Z-31A. Is there something different
about the external power contactor that makes this safety not recommended?
I do need to add the circuit breaker as you recommend, that was an oversight.
The major departure in my schematic is the addition of the switch. The center
position gives the same behavior as Z-31A. The "force" position I put in there
as a means of overcoming the problem I saw with the Otter. If I am presented
with a power supply whose third pin is not engaging the contactor, I can force
it closed manually. The "inhibit" position I don't have a specific operational
need for, but it came at a cost of zero complexity (the DP3T switch is
internally more complex than a SPDT, I suppose... but there are no extra wires
or parts). I think the only time it would see use is if I found myself in a
position of troubleshooting something and wanted to repeatedly add and remove
ground power with minimal physical effort.
With any luck, I'd just leave the switch on Auto for the lifetime of the airplane.
But weird stuff happens... :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287643#287643
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| Subject: | Re: Failure modes with Z14 |
While I have also seen an electrical system function just fine with the
battery disconnected, such performance is not a certainty in all situations.
You raise a point that is dear to me though. Perhaps because I've seen
the results of batteries fed by a runaway regulator, I am also a
proponent of using a small alternator. ie. one that is adequate for
normal ops rather than one that can put out twice the power that will
ever be needed. Especially as we migrate to lower power electronics,
lights, and smaller batteries. Years ago I also had an occasion to
manually cycle a runaway generator with a melting battery while IFR and
it would have been much less tense had it been a smaller unit.
I have confidence in the OV protection but my OV contactor still has to
open for it to work and the less current going through it the better I
think. Actually I had a different contactor fail to open this weekend
but it worked on about 20 subsequent tries so I don't know yet whether
it is the switch or the contactor. My OV contactors normally switch
while unloaded so they will likely last forever.
Ken
user9253 wrote:
> <fran4sew@banyanol.com>
>
> The battery is NOT the power source for electrical equipment on an
> aircraft. The alternator is. Z-13/8 has two alternators. If the
> main one fails, the aux alternator will power the ignition. If both
> alternators fail, the battery is a backup. Once the engine is
> running, failure of the battery contactor will most likely not affect
> the operation of the alternators. An ignition connected to the E-bus
> will keep working after the battery contactor fails, drawing its
> power from the alternator as usual. Each ignition should be
> connected to separate points of the electrical system so that a bad
> connection will only affect one ignition. In Z-13/8 after a battery
> contactor failure, the battery can be kept charged by the main
> alternator through the E-Bus relay or by the aux alternator. Even if
> both alternators and the battery contactor fail, the battery still
> has enough stored energy to power one ignition for a couple of hours.
> The length of time can be determined by doing a l! oad test on the
> battery. This is something that should be done periodically anyway.
> If there are still concerns of contactor failure, a diode can be
> placed across the big terminals of the contactor with the arrow
> pointing towards the battery. However, this is not needed or
> recommended. Many years ago I had a VW with a 6 volt battery. The
> generator quit working (but I did not know it). The engine barely
> cranked when I started it to go home after work at night. After a
> couple of miles, the headlights got dimmer and dimmer, then the
> engine quit. Before the car coasted to a stop, I shut off the
> headlights and the engine started to run again. There was not much
> traffic that late at night. Every time a car approached, I pulled
> off onto the shoulder and waited for it to go by. It was hard to see
> without headlights. I discovered that the engine would keep running
> with the turn signal on. So I used that to see the road, driving
> very slowly. It took me a couple of hours to get home, but I made
> it. The point is that it doesn't take a fully charged battery to
> power the ignition. As for over voltage protection, two OV modules
> can be used. Then the regulator would have to fail along with both
> OV modules before the electronics would be fried. I do not think
> these extreme measures are necessary or desired. If the voltage
> regulator fails, an alternator properly sized to just barely meet the
> expected load will not develop as high of a voltage as a larger
> alternator will. Many things can go wrong on an aircraft. Perhaps a
> BRS is the answer. But even those malfunction. Joe
>
> -------- Joe Gores
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe power ground? |
I think that Bob is saying you can ground it to the airframe or the forest of tabs.
It brings up another question concerning aluminum RVs. If the forest of tabs
is on the stainless steel firewall and the engine is grounded to it, shouldn't
the forest of tabs be linked to some nearby aluminum for better grounding?
I think a braided line has been suggested, but a wire back to the actual main battery
ground would also work - but how big? A #2awg is impractical. Would somethings
as small as a #10awg be good enough, since it's all still attached to
the airframe?
John
--------
#40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287678#287678
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| Subject: | Re: Next generation of OBAM aircraft? |
The next gen of OBAM aircraft? It reminds me that we are probably in
the golden age of OBAMA and personal GA (no pun intended).
Just reverse this scenario
http://alturl.com/gmqu
As unmanned and unpiloted aircraft hit their stride, those unpredictable
piloted aircraft with their free thinking, and at times, malevolent
pilots are going to be increasingly pushed into airspace restricted to
non-commercial, non-military, no-ATC-services areas. Probably to be
called 'uncontrolled' airspace... and we know how rare that has become.
Makes one savor the ability to hand fly our hand built aircraft from
coast to coast, all within the system.
Neat link. Thanks.
Bill "breaking at 4:30 to do the windscreen lay-up" Watson
sonex293 wrote:
>
> Kits are available...
>
> http://www.mikrokopter.de/
>
> --
> MC
>
> --------
> Michael Crowder
> Jabiru 3300A w/ Hyd Lifters
> AeroCarb w/ #3 needle
> Sonex N293SX
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287607#287607
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe power ground? |
Let's think about what is going on here for a moment. The idea is to
allow the current to flow back to the alternator/battery without much
impediment (and without inducing ground loops in sensitive audio
circuits). The firewall is riveted to the rest of the fuselage with
perhaps hundreds of rivets, each clamping the components tightly
together. The forest of tabs has a large brass nut on it to which the
battery earth strap is connected. All the frames in the fuselage are
riveted to the skin and the longerons with 10s of rivets. Installing an
earth stud (that makes good contact with the metal) on a frame near to
the strobe power supply, and hooking the power supply up to it with a
#18 wire, will complete the circuit and achieve the desired aim with
minimum weight. Sure you can run a #10 (or #18) wire back to the forest
of tabs, but its completely redundant.
Peter
johngoodman wrote:
>
> I think that Bob is saying you can ground it to the airframe or the forest of
tabs. It brings up another question concerning aluminum RVs. If the forest of
tabs is on the stainless steel firewall and the engine is grounded to it, shouldn't
the forest of tabs be linked to some nearby aluminum for better grounding?
> I think a braided line has been suggested, but a wire back to the actual main
battery ground would also work - but how big? A #2awg is impractical. Would somethings
as small as a #10awg be good enough, since it's all still attached to
the airframe?
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon.
> N711JG reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287678#287678
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe power ground? |
Peter is right, but I do think Bob suggested some kind of supplemental grounding
if the forest of tabs is on the stainless steel firewall.
John
--------
#40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287695#287695
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe power ground? |
I have no idea whether it is acceptable - but I have a #8 running from
my batteries to the forest of tabs on the firewall with the thought that
the tab is grounded to the airframe and directly. Feel good about it
and think I discussed it with Bob here sometime ago.
Bill
johngoodman wrote:
>
> I think that Bob is saying you can ground it to the airframe or the forest of
tabs. It brings up another question concerning aluminum RVs. If the forest of
tabs is on the stainless steel firewall and the engine is grounded to it, shouldn't
the forest of tabs be linked to some nearby aluminum for better grounding?
> I think a braided line has been suggested, but a wire back to the actual main
battery ground would also work - but how big? A #2awg is impractical. Would somethings
as small as a #10awg be good enough, since it's all still attached to
the airframe?
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon.
> N711JG reserved
>
>
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