AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 02/23/10


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:19 AM - Loss of LR3C compared to switcher (rparigoris)
     2. 07:37 AM - Re: RFC: My external power schematic (user9253)
     3. 08:01 AM - Re: Loss of LR3C compared to switcher (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 08:19 AM - Re: Failure Modes with Z14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 08:25 AM - Re: External Power Options (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: Strobe power ground? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Strobe power ground? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: Strobe power ground? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 10:36 AM - Re: Failure Modes with Z14 (Ken)
    10. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Strobe power ground? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
    11. 12:39 PM - Re: Loss of LR3C compared to switcher (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
    12. 07:43 PM - Re: Loss of LR3C compared to switcher (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: Strobe power ground? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 07:56 PM - Re: Failure modes with Z14 (Jeff Page)
    15. 09:28 PM - Re: Failure modes with Z14 (ray)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:19:15 AM PST US
    Subject: Loss of LR3C compared to switcher
    From: "rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    Curiosity question, according to B+C a SD20S alternator turning when hot at 2500RPM it will produce 24 amps at 14V, how much approximate loss will there be using a LR3C regulator? How much approx. loss using a switcher? Same question for SD20S at 2000RPM, 15 amp output at 14V? Thx. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287768#287768


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:37:03 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: RFC: My external power schematic
    From: "user9253" <fran4sew@banyanol.com>
    The whole purpose of having a diode and relay is to prevent a reversed polarity connection between the aircraft and external power. The switch in the forced position defeats that safety feature, putting expensive avionics at risk along with a potential for fire or exploding batteries. Compare those risks to the inconvenience of the 3d pin not making contact in Z-31A. It isn't just inexperienced line-boys who connect batteries backwards. Qualified people who are complacent or preoccupied make mistakes too. Dwg Z-31B eliminates the 3d pin. Or how about modifying your circuit to use external power through a diode to power the relay like this: http://tinyurl.com/ylbabzd Here is a discussion about plugs and sockets if you have not purchased them yet: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=68440&sid=19d878ba84382f9b62db3fdf8411436f Here is a link to plugs and sockets for sale: http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cgi-bin/ryderfp/products/srm/oid/51817/pn/Single-Pole-Socket-Female/erm/product_detail.jsp -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287808#287808


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:01:28 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Loss of LR3C compared to switcher
    At 02:11 AM 2/23/2010, you wrote: ><rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> > >Curiosity question, according to B+C a SD20S alternator turning when >hot at 2500RPM it will produce 24 amps at 14V, how much approximate >loss will there be using a LR3C regulator? How much approx. loss >using a switcher? > >Same question for SD20S at 2000RPM, 15 amp output at 14V? No difference. The regulator's influence on max current available is minimal. The alternators driven from a vacuum pump pad are RPM limited. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:19:34 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Failure Modes with Z14
    At 09:38 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote: > >Jeff > >The 2 little Dekka 8 AH batteries on my Z-14 system are indeed >equivalent to one 16AH battery except for being more expensive. They >have large bolted lead terminals and one will start the subaru. Two >are better when it is very cold. The batteries do what the >manufacturer says. Small batteries with small terminals that are not >designed to start engines will be a different story. Yes, the Dekka products are unique for their size. >My system does indeed allow charging both batteries with any single >contactor failure. Not a big deal but a consideration with small >batteries. Both alternators feed through their OV contactors to the >respective battery. No second contactor between them and the batteries. Your words generate an interesting idea . . . Assume the builder chooses commercial off the shelf IR alternators and a variant on Z-24 for control and ov protection. In this instance, one COULD set the altenrator b-lead contactor next to a battery contactor and tie it's output directly to the battery. This configuration satisfies the legacy design goal of minimizing hot fat-wires when all switches are OFF. Now you can have your battery contactors feed a single main bus. No e-bus is needed since you're not likely to every need battery-only ops. Now you have two, independently alternator-supported batteries. Two battery busses to distribute loads for an electrically dependent engine. A main bus that's not subject to single-point-of-failure. Cool. I'll pray over this a bit. Perhaps a Figure Z-8 is being conceived . . . Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:25:57 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: External Power Options
    At 09:43 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote: > >I don't know what everyone is using but I definitely don't want the lead >anchor plug and related equipment I had on My Cherokee. I don't want the >Cessna variety either. These days you're hard pressed to find support >for either after business hours. Finding a 110 plug is much more >feasible. > >Couldn't I just use two of the below recessed into my cowling/fuselage >and connect them directly to the battery +/-? > >In that way I can just connect my charger and receive the same benefit. > > >http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=2848 The Piper-Style ground power connector is light and low cost . . . an readily serviced by folks who are truly in FBO business. Further, you can fabricate your own set of jumper cables with the mating connector on one end and carry it in the a/c for use when only a car or portable battery is available for support. I don't think I'd want hi-fault current terminals hanging out just to support and exceedingly rare need for ground power. In 20+ years I've only be to the FBO twice to get ground power support. And that was with weather conditions that I would much rather not have been flying in (-10F). For 99.9% of your flying, ground power support is just dead weight. If your proposed missions put you at higher risk for needing ground power, then some robust, universally installed architecture will probably serve you best. Bob . . . P.S. those plastic firewall feed-throughs are NOT firewall rated just in case anyone is thinking they might use those elsewhere . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:28:39 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Strobe power ground?
    At 01:32 PM 2/22/2010, you wrote: ><johngoodman@earthlink.net> > >I think that Bob is saying you can ground it to the airframe or the >forest of tabs. It brings up another question concerning aluminum >RVs. If the forest of tabs is on the stainless steel firewall and >the engine is grounded to it, shouldn't the forest of tabs be linked >to some nearby aluminum for better grounding? Not necessary. The only currents carried on the firewall sheet are those few items locally grounded as shown on http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K3p1.pdf >I think a braided line has been suggested, but a wire back to the >actual main battery ground would also work - but how big? A #2awg is >impractical. Would somethings as small as a #10awg be good enough, >since it's all still attached to the airframe? No added value. If you do a micro-ohmmeter check between the firewall ground block and major aluminum airframe structure, it will be hundreds of micro-ohms. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:31:04 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Strobe power ground?
    At 02:29 PM 2/22/2010, you wrote: ><MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> > >I have no idea whether it is acceptable - but I have a #8 running >from my batteries to the forest of tabs on the firewall with the >thought that the tab is grounded to the airframe and directly. Feel >good about it and think I discussed it with Bob here sometime ago. ???? Did I recommend this . . . or just offer that it didn't hurt anything ??? Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:34:19 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Strobe power ground?
    At 05:18 PM 2/22/2010, you wrote: ><johngoodman@earthlink.net> > >Peter is right, but I do think Bob suggested some kind of >supplemental grounding if the forest of tabs is on the stainless >steel firewall. Hmmmm . . . I'll need to search the archives on that. I wonder if I was smoking something really good that night. I can't imagine the thought processes that would have made a redundant ground attractive. I do seem to recall some folks wondering if they could ground tail mounted batteries locally . . . or does the system work better if battery ground is brought forward on it's own wire. Upon further reflection, we've been grounding batteries in the tail on metal airplanes for a very long time. Tradeoffs for performance are pretty small if even measurable. Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:36:39 AM PST US
    From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: Failure Modes with Z14
    Yes I was thinking that a small Bosch "40" amp relay and fuse would be quite adequate for turning my main bus into an E bus since my main bus loads are under 20 amps. Halogen landing lights and nav lights are the only things on it that draw significant power. With my key starter switch, it is not possible to crank the engine unless the main bus contactor is closed. Similar to a car, first key position closes the main bus contactor and then the spring loaded position cranks the engine. It has worked well for me. Alternatively, with a 20 amp or larger second alternator, most folks could eliminate the crossfeed contactor and then dual main bus contactors would in fact be the crossfeed. Ken Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 09:38 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote: >> >> Jeff >> >> The 2 little Dekka 8 AH batteries on my Z-14 system are indeed >> equivalent to one 16AH battery except for being more expensive. They >> have large bolted lead terminals and one will start the subaru. Two >> are better when it is very cold. The batteries do what the >> manufacturer says. Small batteries with small terminals that are not >> designed to start engines will be a different story. > > Yes, the Dekka products are unique for their size. > >> My system does indeed allow charging both batteries with any single >> contactor failure. Not a big deal but a consideration with small >> batteries. Both alternators feed through their OV contactors to the >> respective battery. No second contactor between them and the batteries. > > Your words generate an interesting idea . . . > > Assume the builder chooses commercial off the shelf > IR alternators and a variant on Z-24 for control and > ov protection. In this instance, one COULD set the > altenrator b-lead contactor next to a battery contactor > and tie it's output directly to the battery. > > This configuration satisfies the legacy design goal > of minimizing hot fat-wires when all switches are > OFF. Now you can have your battery contactors feed > a single main bus. No e-bus is needed since you're > not likely to every need battery-only ops. Now you > have two, independently alternator-supported batteries. > Two battery busses to distribute loads for an electrically > dependent engine. A main bus that's not subject to > single-point-of-failure. Cool. > > I'll pray over this a bit. Perhaps a Figure Z-8 is > being conceived . . . > > Bob . . . >


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:15:32 AM PST US
    From: Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Strobe power ground?
    Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 02:29 PM 2/22/2010, you wrote: >> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com> >> >> I have no idea whether it is acceptable - but I have a #8 running >> from my batteries to the forest of tabs on the firewall with the >> thought that the tab is grounded to the airframe and directly. Feel >> good about it and think I discussed it with Bob here sometime ago. > > ???? Did I recommend this . . . or just offer that > it didn't hurt anything ??? > > Bob . . . > You definitely didn't recommend it and from what I can see didn't even offer a comment. My bad in suggesting you did.


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:39:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Loss of LR3C compared to switcher
    From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
    Hi Bob Thx. for the reply. ">>Curiosity question, according to B+C a SD20S alternator turning when >>hot at 2500RPM it will produce 24 amps at 14V, how much approximate >>loss will there be using a LR3C regulator? How much approx. loss >>using a switcher? >> >>Same question for SD20S at 2000RPM, 15 amp output at 14V?" " "> No difference. The regulator's influence on max current > available is minimal. The alternators driven from a > vacuum pump pad are RPM limited. > " " I may not understand what you said, or I find what I think you said hard to believe. Are you saying that a LR3C creates no loss what so ever off the listed output of a SD20S on B+Cs spec sheet? Are you saying thata switcher is not more efficient than a linear regulator? I was hoping perhaps someone had actual measured losses. B+C never measured a switcher, but thinks perhaps LR3C will incur a 1.5 amp loss (the more amps, the more loss) not more than 2 amps in my scenario. Thx. Ron Parigoris


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:43:24 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Loss of LR3C compared to switcher
    At 02:34 PM 2/23/2010, you wrote: >Hi Bob >Thx. for the reply. >">>Curiosity question, according to B+C a SD20S alternator turning when > >>hot at 2500RPM it will produce 24 amps at 14V, how much approximate > >>loss will there be using a LR3C regulator? How much approx. loss > >>using a switcher? > >> > >>Same question for SD20S at 2000RPM, 15 amp output at 14V?" > >" "> No difference. The regulator's influence on max current > > available is minimal. The alternators driven from a > > vacuum pump pad are RPM limited. > " " > >I may not understand what you said, or I find what I think you said >hard to believe. Are you saying that a LR3C creates no loss what so >ever off the listed output of a SD20S on B+Cs spec sheet? Are you >saying that a switcher is not more efficient than a linear >regulator? I was hoping perhaps someone had actual measured losses. >B+C never measured a switcher, but thinks perhaps LR3C will incur a >1.5 amp loss (the more amps, the more loss) not more than 2 amps in >my scenario. Not sure what you're calling "losses". The controlling device in a plain-vanilla duty-cycle controlled regulator does not get as hot as the linear device. However, just because a linear tosses off heat (maximum when the field voltage is 1/2 of bus voltage) doesn't mean that there's more energy available from the alternator. Minimum speed for regulation, minimum speed for full output and maximum output are measured under conditions that the regulator is turned on max-hard. In both styles this is 100% duty cycle output with the field voltage being only a tad below bus voltage. The drop in a max-on linear vs. a max-on switching regulators might be a bit different . . . but both are on the order of 1 volt. In a belt driven alternator running nearly 10,000 rpm, this is an insignificant drop that does not limit the alternator's ability to deliver max rated power. When you're RPM limited, then it MAY be that one regulator may produce a tad more output. You'd have to do a side-by-side bench test or have access to the alternator's transfer function curves for the RPM of interest. In any case, the differences are small and mostly academic . . . if ones successful termination of flight in the endurance mode hinges on the availability of just a tad more alternator output, the load analysis for that condition needs to be re-evaluated. Keep in mind too that field current supplied through the regulator comes from the bus and is probably on the order of 2.5 amps. This is PART of your running load. So energy available to run the elecro-whizzies is taxed by the value of field supply current. For internally regulated alternators, rated output is over and above field supply requirements. But for the SD-20 in an RPM limited mode, the field current comes off the top of what ever the total output of the alternator happens to be. A switching regulator of any style cannot improve upon that. Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:50:29 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Strobe power ground?
    >> ???? Did I recommend this . . . or just offer that >> it didn't hurt anything ??? >You definitely didn't recommend it and from what I can >see didn't even offer a comment. My bad in suggesting you did. No problem. With as many conversations as I participate in on-list, off-list and with clients, it's difficult to recall sometimes just who said what to whom and why. That's the nice thing about archives. I've got every document I ever posted to the List on file. It's been handy on many occasions over the years. Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:56:37 PM PST US
    From: Jeff Page <jpx@qenesis.com>
    Subject: Re: Failure modes with Z14
    Joe, I am quite comfortable with the situation that would occur if any of the individual parts of Z13/8 should fail. I don't expect a contactor failure is any more significant than other failures. What I like about Z13/8 is that there are alternate feed paths so that the alternator(s) can continue to keep the batteries charged, and power can be supplied to the endurance bus. I once drove a car all winter without a functioning alternator. It was mounted on the bottom of the engine and I didn't want to lie in the snow to fix it. I knew how many starts and how long I could drive with and without the headlights. I only got caught needing a boost once all winter ;-) So the only thing that I would like to do is ensure that an overvoltage condition cannot damage both ignitions. Perhaps two OV modules would do it, but I would feel more comfortable with an isolated system. Ken, > The 2 little Dekka 8 AH batteries on my Z-14 system are indeed > equivalent to one 16AH battery except for being more expensive. This is good to know. > My system does indeed allow charging both batteries with any > single contactor failure. How did you change the circuit to accomplish this ? > If it helps - yes I did spend some time testing the OV modules and yes > they perform exactly as advertised and the current version simply does > not trip unless there is a real OV event. Also useful to know. How did you test them ? I expect that applying 16V to the sense lead would result in the field breaker tripping. My concern would be duplicating the shorted regulator scenario, that is, applying 12V directly to the field terminal. This should result in the alternator producing possibly 80-120V ? Does the breaker trip in time to protect some cheap auto headlamps ? I don't think I want to do this test with my expensive ignitions. > Don't overlook ergonomics. Keep your system as operationally simple as > possible. Give some thought to what you actions you will take for > failures and locate controls to make those actions simple and > methodical. Ideally one procedure for all engine problems is ideal. This I have thought a lot about. In the end, I came up with a color coded system. If this LV light illuminates, flip the switches joined with the same color line. Easy to do in flight without a checklist (although I would use one anyway). No troubleshooting in flight. I would like opinions on the feasibility of modifying Z13/8 by isolating the aux alternator path with a cross feed relay that would be open in flight except after alternator failure. I would add a small battery to ensure the SD-8 produces power. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10


    Message 15


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    Time: 09:28:21 PM PST US
    From: ray <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: Failure modes with Z14
    Jeff, I would be interested in seeing your "Light/line" switch layout on your panel. Sounds like a good idea. Are there any pictures posted anywhere I can look at? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. Jeff Page wrote: > > Joe, > > I am quite comfortable with the situation that would occur if any of the > individual parts of Z13/8 should fail. I don't expect a contactor > failure is any more significant than other failures. What I like about > Z13/8 is that there are alternate feed paths so that the alternator(s) > can continue to keep the batteries charged, and power can be supplied to > the endurance bus. > > I once drove a car all winter without a functioning alternator. It was > mounted on the bottom of the engine and I didn't want to lie in the snow > to fix it. I knew how many starts and how long I could drive with and > without the headlights. I only got caught needing a boost once all > winter ;-) > > So the only thing that I would like to do is ensure that an overvoltage > condition cannot damage both ignitions. Perhaps two OV modules would do > it, but I would feel more comfortable with an isolated system. > > Ken, > >> The 2 little Dekka 8 AH batteries on my Z-14 system are indeed >> equivalent to one 16AH battery except for being more expensive. > > This is good to know. > >> My system does indeed allow charging both batteries with any >> single contactor failure. > > How did you change the circuit to accomplish this ? > >> If it helps - yes I did spend some time testing the OV modules and yes >> they perform exactly as advertised and the current version simply does >> not trip unless there is a real OV event. > > Also useful to know. How did you test them ? I expect that applying > 16V to the sense lead would result in the field breaker tripping. My > concern would be duplicating the shorted regulator scenario, that is, > applying 12V directly to the field terminal. This should result in the > alternator producing possibly 80-120V ? Does the breaker trip in time > to protect some cheap auto headlamps ? I don't think I want to do this > test with my expensive ignitions. > >> Don't overlook ergonomics. Keep your system as operationally simple as >> possible. Give some thought to what you actions you will take for >> failures and locate controls to make those actions simple and >> methodical. Ideally one procedure for all engine problems is ideal. > > This I have thought a lot about. In the end, I came up with a color > coded system. If this LV light illuminates, flip the switches joined > with the same color line. Easy to do in flight without a checklist > (although I would use one anyway). No troubleshooting in flight. > > I would like opinions on the feasibility of modifying Z13/8 by isolating > the aux alternator path with a cross feed relay that would be open in > flight except after alternator failure. I would add a small battery to > ensure the SD-8 produces power. > > Jeff Page > Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > > > > > > >




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