Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:26 AM - Re: Official color of levers (Eric M. Jones)
2. 07:16 AM - Circuit protection - Amps (Carlos Trigo)
3. 07:54 AM - OT & Cross Post - reflections on the transition from analog to digital navigation equipment and failure modes (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
4. 08:07 AM - Re: Circuit protection - Amps (Ralph E. Capen)
5. 08:47 AM - Re: Clearing some away some fog and fuzzy logic . . . (user9253)
6. 08:56 AM - Re: Circuit protection - Amps (Glaeser, Dennis)
7. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: Circuit protection - Amps (Carlos Trigo)
8. 02:47 PM - Re: GPU connection philosophy (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 02:49 PM - Re: Z-11 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 02:50 PM - Re: Circuit protection - Amps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 03:14 PM - How do you reliably attach wire to a solder lug switch (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
12. 03:47 PM - Re: GNS430 Wire Book (dave.gribble@mchsi.com)
13. 07:46 PM - Re: GNS430 Wire Book (Brooks Wolfe)
14. 08:24 PM - Z-12 Architecture - Parallel Master Contactors (rckol)
15. 08:52 PM - Z13/20 (Noah)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Official color of levers |
Ron,
I looked into this years ago and there is no lack of information. Just Google "Cockpit
Ergonomics" and have a go at it. There are FAA and ICAO regulations on
the shapes of landing gear and flap knobs, but color is not the issue for controls.
What color is the blue knob in red night-lighting??
Being R-G color-blind, I carry a piece of paper from the FAA saying IO can see
color. So that makes me an expert.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288285#288285
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| Subject: | Circuit protection - Amps |
I had Whelen Nav lights in my RV-9A, in a circuit protected by a 7Amp PTC.
I replaced those by new LED nav lights, which draw about 0.5A, and should
need a protection device not bigger than 1A.
If I leave the circuit with the same 7A protection, what are the
implications?
Carlos
Message 3
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| Subject: | OT & Cross Post - reflections on the transition from |
analog to digital navigation equipment and failure modes
Way off topic: Here's a video of an almost-accident by NZ60 landing at
Apia (Samoa?). It depicts how the failure of an ILS component at the
airport went undetected by multiple RF-based analog pieces of Nav
equipment including the ILS receivers, the FMS (digital?), and the
autopilot systems Only after the 3 pilots broke out and couldn't make
sense of the lights did their doubts finally result in a go-around
followed by a safe landing. Fascinating and informative for any
instrument pilot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GelRBhJ4gmI&feature=PlayList&p=C325C5DA287EC296&index=7
It's 3 parts long - if you enjoy it, you'll find part 2 and 3.
Anyway, this had me reflecting on how much more capable and reliable
digital based navigation (GPS) might be compared to analog based
systems. In the above example, everything in the aircraft worked as
designed. Procedures were for the most part, followed and executed.
The automated navigation systems of the aircraft were prepared to fly it
into the ground. The collective brain of the 3 pilots (NZ designation)
was the only thing that saved a crash. Is a WAAS based overlay of the
approach susceptible to a similiar sort of failure?
Arguably, one can now see the point in time where fully automated
flights, without pilots, can be accomplished. And of course these
flights are being made by mililtary drones and the Mars explorers.
No new news here, just marveling at it all.
I posted the response below to Sonex293 on the Aeroelectric list - check
the mikrokopter link at the bottom if you haven't seen it before.
That's what got me day dreaming in the first place....
--------
The next gen of OBAM aircraft? It reminds me that we are probably in
the golden age of OBAMA and personal GA (no pun intended).
Just reverse this scenario
http://alturl.com/gmqu
As unmanned and unpiloted aircraft hit their stride, those unpredictable
piloted aircraft with their free thinking, and at times, malevolent
pilots are going to be increasingly pushed into airspace restricted to
non-commercial, non-military, no-ATC-services areas. Probably to be
called 'uncontrolled' airspace... and we know how rare that has become.
Makes one savor the ability to hand fly our hand built aircraft from
coast to coast, all within the system.
Neat link. Thanks.
sonex293 wrote:
Kits are available...
http://www.mikrokopter.de/
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit protection - Amps |
The fuse is supposed to protect the wire. Shouldn't be an issue. You can downsize
the fuse based on expected draw and any unexpected draw will pop the fuse.
I had similar Whelens which I replaced with LED units...kept the same fuse as I
am carrying one of the old units (with both lenses) as a backup in case of hangar
rash at a destination....I can easily swap out to my backup and the wiring
is already set-up.
My .02
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Carlos Trigo <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
>Sent: Feb 26, 2010 10:01 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Circuit protection - Amps
>
>I had Whelen Nav lights in my RV-9A, in a circuit protected by a 7Amp PTC.
>
>I replaced those by new LED nav lights, which draw about 0.5A, and should
>need a protection device not bigger than 1A.
>
>
>
>If I leave the circuit with the same 7A protection, what are the
>implications?
>
>
>
>Carlos
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Clearing some away some fog and fuzzy logic . . |
.
The main issue in this debate seems to be whether to use fuses or circuit breakers.
Like many decisions in life, there is more than one way to accomplish a
goal. One way may have certain advantages over the other way, and visa-versa.
Many times the decision boils down to a matter of personal preference; and I
believe that is the case here. I have replaced hundreds of fuses during my career
as an industrial electrician, but only a few circuit breakers. Fuses can
blow from a variety of reasons like old age, operating near maximum rating for
long time, heat from a bad fuse-holder connection, and of course overload or
short circuit. And circuit breakers will trip for most of those same reasons.
The blade type fuses used in modern cars are much less likely to develop a
high resistance connection with the fuse holder as compared to the old cylinder
shaped fuses. Some people might argue that fuses will blow quicker than circuit
breakers will trip, thus offering better protection. Although technically
true, I do not think the time difference is significant. One way to avoid
nuisance blowing of fuses is to use a larger size. For instance, an avionics
manufacturer might recommend using a 1 amp fuse. If you use a 3 amp fuse instead,
there will be a lot less chance of it blowing. The fuse should be sized
to protect the wire, not the load. If the equipment manufacturer is depending
on you to protect their device from internal failure, then choose another brand.
I am going to use fuses (where applicable) in my plane because they are lighter,
cost less, take up less room, and are easily replaceable. My fuses will have
indicator lights that will illuminate when the fuse blows. Van's Aircraft
is using fuses in the RV-12 and it meets the ASTM standards. If you want to
use circuit breakers, that is OK with me. To each his own.
Quote from technician,
> "The only thing I really think is wrong is putting a crow bar & over voltage
relay on the b-lead of an internally regulated alternator. That is heavy and a
Jury Rig. It also will damage the alternator in the event of a nuisance trip."
End Quote.
Quote from Bob,
> "discussed, researched, and demonstrated not to be true."
End Quote
I am taking Bob's side here. The technician is basing his statement on rumors.
Bob has done experiments with expensive lab equipment. I trust his work. Even
if the technician is correct (which I doubt), I would rather ruin an alternator
than have an over-voltage condition ruin thousands of dollars worth of avionics.
Although the technician is highly critical of Bob's recommendations, I do not
take his statements as being a personal attack. Still, he was expressing his
opinions as fact and pooh-poohing Bob's, which is not a nice thing to do. If
I say something that others disagree with, it is OK to tell me, as long as it
is done diplomatically. LOL
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288307#288307
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit protection - Amps |
From: Carlos Trigo (trigo@mail.telepac.pt)
I had Whelen Nav lights in my RV-9A, in a circuit protected by a 7Amp PTC.
I replaced those by new LED nav lights, which draw about 0.5A, and should
need a protection device not bigger than 1A.
If I leave the circuit with the same 7A protection, what are the
implications?
Carlos
--------------------------------------------------------
Did you replace the wires? If not, then virtually no implications.
If you put in smaller wires, then you need to use a smaller protection device.
Protection is for the wires - so they can't overheat in case of a short.
Dennis
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit protection - Amps |
Thanks Dennis
Just keep answering my questions in all forums (fora) in which we both lurk
. :-)
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glaeser, Dennis
> Sent: sexta-feira, 26 de Fevereiro de 2010 16:54
> To: AeroElectric-List@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Circuit protection - Amps
>
> <dennis.glaeser@hp.com>
>
> From: Carlos Trigo (trigo@mail.telepac.pt)
> Date: Fri Feb 26 - 7:16 AM
>
> I had Whelen Nav lights in my RV-9A, in a circuit protected by a 7Amp PTC.
>
> I replaced those by new LED nav lights, which draw about 0.5A, and should
> need a protection device not bigger than 1A.
>
> If I leave the circuit with the same 7A protection, what are the
> implications?
>
> Carlos
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Did you replace the wires? If not, then virtually no implications.
> If you put in smaller wires, then you need to use a smaller protection
device.
> Protection is for the wires - so they can't overheat in case of a short.
>
> Dennis
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: GPU connection philosophy |
At 03:44 PM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
><peter@sportingaero.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>When I was in the military we sometimes had aircraft in the hangar
>on ground power for many hours at a time as electrics or avionics
>snags were investigated. Ground Power plugs were wired up to by-pass
>the battery, and most times (always?) the battery connector was pulled.
Yeah, I've had several folks tell me of such protocols. The
protocols have existed for doing a number of things for a long
time . . . but the rationale behind those processes remain a
mystery.
> Also, if the battery (24v Ni-Cad) was flat we took it down to the
> battery bay and got another.
I don't think ANYONE in the TC/Military world recommends
charging a flat battery while in the aircraft. This is because
certain protocols call for cap-checking any battery that's
found seriously discharged . . . particularly if the
individual who discovers the condition has no idea why
or how long the battery has been dead.
> We also used to start the aircraft every time on external power
> (unless a power rig wasn't available).
As a TC manufacturer, I'd be delighted if everyone used
ground power to start up . . . shucks, we could probably
make a battery last twice as long in service. But the
CONVENIENCE of owning your own airborne transportation
extends to maximizing convenience for jump-in-and-go.
It's a trade off.
>Perhaps this thinking has found its way by osmosis into the small
>aircraft TC community without any good reason? Perhaps its also an
>attempt to stop owners charging old wet electrolyte batteries in
>situ, with the risk of acid spillage, or worse?
I suspect you're correct. The neat thing about OBAM
aircraft, we're encouraged to understand how and
why things work with sufficient competence to craft
our own protocols.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Z-11 Question |
At 09:15 PM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Looking at Z-11/M, why is the endurance bus protected by a fuse from
>the battery bus but not the main bus? Is it just for the sake of
>the switch or something else?
Fuses, breakers, et. als. protect WIRES. They're not
well applied for the protection of hardware. There's
a long feeder from a VERY robust current source
quite capable of toasting the alternate feed path
wiring . . . hence the fuse or breaker at the battery
end. The other end is short wires that hopefully
conform with the 6" or less rule that says protection
MIGHT not be all that useful or necessary.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit protection - Amps |
At 09:01 AM 2/26/2010, you wrote:
>I had Whelen Nav lights in my RV-9A, in a circuit protected by a 7Amp PTC.
>I replaced those by new LED nav lights, which draw about 0.5A, and
>should need a protection device not bigger than 1A.
>
>If I leave the circuit with the same 7A protection, what are the implications?
If you didn't downsize the wires, then none. The PTC
is to protect wires.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | How do you reliably attach wire to a solder lug switch |
Hi Group
Again I wish my instrument was "just a little bit
larger". I need to install a switch to reset (or turn off) my
wastegate servo for Rotax 914. It is not somewhere I want a wire fatiguing
and breaking. Rotax calls for a switchDPDT NO withmomentary
(OFF). I want ability to keep off so instead I want to use a TPDT, this
way when off I can illuminate a warning LED. The real estate I want to
place switch and indicator allows use of a miniature toggle with solder
lugs (also Perihelion switch guard and red screw on boot cover). My
question is what can I do besides double heat shrinking lugs and wires to
decrease chance of a mechanical fatigue failure? Or is double heat shrink
with wires secured within 2" adequate?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: GNS430 Wire Book |
forgive the minor thread hijack - but what is an AGATE wire book, and where can
it be downloaded from?
Thanks,
dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:46:56 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GNS430 Wire Book
At 11:41 PM 2/24/2010, you wrote:
>I'm still trying to sort out my GNS430W's lack of comm. I had the
>unit bench tested here locally, and it works just fine at the
>avionics shop, so the issue must be my wiring somewhere. The wire
>book for AGATE that I've downloaded shows the 430 being hooked up
>through the GMA340. All I want to use is a simple Sigtronics
>intercom; no audio panel.
>
>The Sigtronics does not have "audio low" or "mic low" inputs. I
>believe I read somewhere that these are to be grounded, so that's
>what I did, but I can't find that reference right now.
Yes . . . when those pins are not available as
dedicated inputs, use signal or power grounds
as close to the intercom's cable connector
as practical . . .
> The Garmin manual (4.7.2.3) states that they're balanced inputs,
> and that both must be connected. I'm a bit wary of experimenting
> willy-nilly with this radio, so I haven't gone and tried tying them
> together yet.
>
>Also, the AGATE wire book shows a "Comm Mic Return" pin 8 on P4002,
>to be joined with the Comm Audio Lo. The Garmin manual simply shows
>that as a reserved or unused pin.
Hmmmm . . . I did those drawings some years ago and
a tech over in experimental flight installed the
radio. A week later I noticed that the radio was
in and working . . . but if he found any errors
in my drawing he didn't mention them. So I'm assuming
that the drawings are correct as depicted.
Is it just an audio issue? Which way . . . can't talk
or can't hear or both? Does the transmitter key when
you press the mic button.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: GNS430 Wire Book |
I think I found my problem -- Connectivity with the plugs in the back of
the
rack isn't too good. When I cut the panel, my thinking was to make my pa
nel
exactly as large as the GNS430 itself. The rack is flush with the backsi
de
of the panel. After figuring out that I wasn't getting a good connection
,
it occurred to me that the rack should be flush with the front side (disp
lay
side) of the panel. That little 1/8" of movement that I'd lost in the fi
rst
setup was apparently enough to keep the comm connector, P4002, from makin
g a
good solid connection.
Brooks
Message 14
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| Subject: | Z-12 Architecture - Parallel Master Contactors |
In "A Short Discussion of the Endurance Bus" on page Z-2 of Rev 12A of The AeroElectric
Connection it states that "Unless you're planning TWO alternators (Z-12,
Z-13 or Z-14) then the purpose of the e-bus is to provide a minimum consumption
mode of operation in a battery only condition..."
Z-14 has no ebus
In Z-13, the ebus is tied to the output of the 8 AMP alternator and it functions
to limit the load on the alternator (as plan B) but also provides for a battery
only mode (Plan C) in the event of an unlikely simultaneous failure of both
alternator systems.
In Z-12, it seems the function of the e-bus is a battery only mode of operation
for either either of the following:
a. A Plan B in the event that an open master contactor failure renders both alternators
unusable or
b. A Plan C in the event of an unlikely failure of both alternator systems for
other reasons on the same tank of fuel.
For Z-12, if instead of an e-bus, a parallel master contactor was provided:
a. Plan B in the case of an open master contactor would be to close the parallel
contactor resulting in a fully functioning alternator(s) and
b. Plan C would be unchanged.
The cost and complexity of an extra contactor compared to an e-bus would seem to
be about a wash.
What would be the downside other than the need to thoughtfully manage the electrical
loads in Plan C?
--------
rck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288452#288452
Message 15
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I purchased an SD-20 auxiliary alternator after reading AEC a couple of years ago,
and had been planning a Z-13/20. Subsequent to this purchase and installation
on my engine, Bob has indicated on numerous occasions that this was not a
well thought out architecture, and thus was withdrawn a couple of years ago.
However, I have NEVER seen an explanation of what the concerns were regarding this
architecture, and more particularly, what its' failure modes are.
So what say ye, Bob? What did you decide that you didn't you like about this architecture?
What makes it so objectionable?
A related question regards what is "magic" about the SD-8 that allows it to be
used in the Z/13 architecture while the SD-20 has been deemed NOT compatible.
I don't have much experience analyzing schematics but when I look at Z-13/20, I
guess I just don't see what the issue is. Can someone please educate me?
Highest Regards,
Noah Forden
RV-7A
--------
Highest Regards,
Noah Forden
RV-7A
Rhode Island
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288458#288458
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