Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:05 AM - Re: Z8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Z13/20 ()
3. 08:02 AM - Re: Z-11 Question (David E. Nelson)
4. 08:54 AM - Re: Battery charging (James Robinson)
5. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Andrew Butler)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: Battery charging (David LLoyd)
7. 10:51 AM - Re: Z13/20 (rckol)
8. 11:03 AM - Re: Battery charging (BobsV35B@aol.com)
9. 11:03 AM - Re: Battery charging (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 01:03 PM - Re: Battery charging (James Robinson)
11. 04:02 PM - Re: Battery charging (David LLoyd)
12. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 04:29 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 04:39 PM - Re: Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 04:54 PM - Re: Noise in Handheld Tx signal. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Tim Andres)
17. 07:27 PM - This switch OK? (johngoodman)
18. 07:53 PM - Re: Z13/20 (Noah)
19. 09:08 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 11:11 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
21. 11:16 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
At 08:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote:
>Bob:
>
>Is it going to have 2 LR-3's or an LR-3/SB-1 combination? What's
>the timeframe before we get a peek?
I'm deliberating the ease with which a pair
of IR alternators can be incorporated into a
dual battery, dual alternator, three bus system.
The design goal embraces legacy protocols for
having all fat wires "cold" with switches OFF
and no always hot wires fused at over 7A. The
IR alternator crowbar OV (and ultimately 9011)
integration calls for a b-lead contactor. If
this contactor were mounted next to a battery
contactor it could tie an alternator to the battery
side of the battery contactor instead of the bus
side.
The simplest system would utilize two IR alternators
of any size. Adding external regulators wouldn't
drive up complexity much.
The architecture offers two battery busses
supported directly by their respective alternators.
Each would be operable independently of the other
and of the main bus. No e-bus is needed. I've
about got the drawing done but I'll be out of
town today. Might get it posted late tonight.
Bob . . .
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Noah,
You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you're mission is
complete and redundant reliability while flying over the generally
abandoned Kansas Territory, you've got the wrong approach.
Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power
SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate
landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your
car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended
as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to
sustain the output provided by the SD-20.
Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long
past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I
am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that.
If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to
what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the
glove box with the spare batteries.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noah
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20
Bob, I appreciate the response, but from a technical perspective, it
doesn't give me much to go on.
Let me try my question from a different angle.
I prefer Z-13 over Z-12 because of the salient advantages it offers,
namely that it is a two-layered electrical system, with (as far as I can
tell), very little single point failure potential. With the aux
alternator feeding the battery directly, the main contactor is removed
from the list of single point failure modes requiring landing and
fixing/replacing something. Additionally, a contactor failure does not
take BOTH alternators essentially offline, as occurs with Z12. I
believe that you yourself have said on numerous occasions that Z13 is
your architecture of choice.
When I take a 6000 mile trip, I don't want a main contactor failure to
mean I am on the ground for an hour, a day, or a week waiting for a
replacement. My mission requires that I be able to fly a couple of
thousand miles home, COMFORTABLY, to replace that single failed
electrical component in the comfort of my own hangar. Unless I am
mistaken somehow, Z13 allows this, and Z12 does not.
So the question I will ask again is, what is it about the SD-20 which
makes it not compatible with Z-13, while the SD-8 IS compatible?
Is it because the SD-8 is a dynamo, and needs no flash from the bus? Is
it because the lower current SD-8 driven E-bus can use a backfeed switch
instead of a relay? Something else?
I have searched the archives extensively on this topic and have never
found a direct technical response to this question, despite many
builders who have asked the question in one way or another, and who
require a Z-13 architecture with an up-sized auxiliary alternator and
E-Bus, so that they can FLY COMFORTABLY all the way home, not just to
the next airport.
Z14 doesn't interest me because in my case its complexity isn't needed -
all of my critical flight instruments and nav gear have internal battery
backups and the additional weight and complexity is overkill IMHO.
--------
Highest Regards,
Noah Forden
RV-7A
Rhode Island
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288688#288688
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z-11 Question |
Thank you, Bob.
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 09:15 PM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Looking at Z-11/M, why is the endurance bus protected by a fuse from the
>> battery bus but not the main bus? Is it just for the sake of the switch or
>> something else?
>
> Fuses, breakers, et. als. protect WIRES. They're not
> well applied for the protection of hardware. There's
> a long feeder from a VERY robust current source
> quite capable of toasting the alternate feed path
> wiring . . . hence the fuse or breaker at the battery
> end. The other end is short wires that hopefully
> conform with the 6" or less rule that says protection
> MIGHT not be all that useful or necessary.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
Hi Bob
I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric airplane for
a few years. I usually change them out at annual time. Someone recommended
a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the same size and a few dollars cheaper.
Any comment?
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi Noah,
I'm no expert and my bird is a couple of months away from fire up, but my panel
and all electrics are finished and appear to work. Mine is based on the Z13/8
architecture.
The architecture is a template not a solution. My understanding is that the wares
being offered by the "owners" of this forum are design and engineering oriented
rather than solution oriented, hence the feeling that it is difficult to
get a straight answer when you ask a solution oriented question. A lot of time,
effort and experience has gone into fine tuning the aeroelectric templates.
Even so, there is nothing wrong with putting a SD-20 in place of the SD-8. However,
by changing one of the major components of a design template, you completely
change the profile of the architecture and the original design goals are
no longer a match (more weight, more expense etc.) and it is invalidated.
So if the design goal is to get down safe in the event of an alt failure for the
least weight and cost penalty, even if you are more than an hour from the nearest
airport, then the design that fits the bill is the Z13/8. If you want an
alt failure to be a normal mode of operation, then it is the design that you
deploy has to change, rather than the template you start with.
Andrew Butler
RV7 EI-EEO
Galway, Ireland.
----- Original Message -----
From: longg@pjm.com
Sent: Monday, 1 March, 2010 15:30:23 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20
Noah,
You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you're mission is
complete and redundant reliability while flying over the generally
abandoned Kansas Territory, you've got the wrong approach.
Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power
SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate
landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your
car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended
as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to
sustain the output provided by the SD-20.
Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long
past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I
am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that.
If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to
what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the
glove box with the spare batteries.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noah
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20
Bob, I appreciate the response, but from a technical perspective, it
doesn't give me much to go on.
Let me try my question from a different angle.
I prefer Z-13 over Z-12 because of the salient advantages it offers,
namely that it is a two-layered electrical system, with (as far as I can
tell), very little single point failure potential. With the aux
alternator feeding the battery directly, the main contactor is removed
from the list of single point failure modes requiring landing and
fixing/replacing something. Additionally, a contactor failure does not
take BOTH alternators essentially offline, as occurs with Z12. I
believe that you yourself have said on numerous occasions that Z13 is
your architecture of choice.
When I take a 6000 mile trip, I don't want a main contactor failure to
mean I am on the ground for an hour, a day, or a week waiting for a
replacement. My mission requires that I be able to fly a couple of
thousand miles home, COMFORTABLY, to replace that single failed
electrical component in the comfort of my own hangar. Unless I am
mistaken somehow, Z13 allows this, and Z12 does not.
So the question I will ask again is, what is it about the SD-20 which
makes it not compatible with Z-13, while the SD-8 IS compatible?
Is it because the SD-8 is a dynamo, and needs no flash from the bus? Is
it because the lower current SD-8 driven E-bus can use a backfeed switch
instead of a relay? Something else?
I have searched the archives extensively on this topic and have never
found a direct technical response to this question, despite many
builders who have asked the question in one way or another, and who
require a Z-13 architecture with an up-sized auxiliary alternator and
E-Bus, so that they can FLY COMFORTABLY all the way home, not just to
the next airport.
Z14 doesn't interest me because in my case its complexity isn't needed -
all of my critical flight instruments and nav gear have internal battery
backups and the additional weight and complexity is overkill IMHO.
--------
Highest Regards,
Noah Forden
RV-7A
Rhode Island
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288688#288688
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
James,
Curious why you change them out so often.
I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords
and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have
a maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them
out they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period
limit that one feels comfortable.
Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: James Robinson
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
Hi Bob
I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric
airplane for a few years. I usually change them out at annual time.
Someone recommended a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the
same size and a few dollars cheaper. Any comment?
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Noah,
In another thread earlier this weekend I proposed the use of a second, parallel
master contactor in Z-12 instead of an E-bus to accomplish what you are looking
for. This would give you the potential to fully recover from a contactor failing
open in flight and still be set up to run off the battery through an alternate
path if need be.
You might use contactors with low holding current, like an EV-200, or a standard
contactor with the gizmo Bob is working on to reduce the holding current for
Plan C (battery only ops)
Dick Kaehler
--------
rck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288794#288794
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
Good Afternoon Dave and James,
I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a
regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified
flying machines?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
Piper PA-20-150
In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
skywagon@charter.net writes:
James,
Curious why you change them out so often.
I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords
and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have a
maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them out
they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period limit
that one feels comfortable.
Dave
____________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: _James Robinson_ (mailto:jbr79r@yahoo.com)
(mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
Hi Bob
I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric airplane
for a few years. I usually change them out at annual time. Someone
recommended a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the same size and a
few dollars cheaper. Any comment?
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
Good Afternoon Dave and James,
I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a
regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified
flying machines?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
Piper PA-20-150
In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
skywagon@charter.net writes:
James,
Curious why you change them out so often.
I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords
and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have a
maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them out
they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period limit
that one feels comfortable.
Dave
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
In the big scheme of things the battery is a small expense. Especially the ones
mentioned. I do not do a capacity check only because it is not something I
want to spend the time messing with. I use the removed batteries for other applicatiions.
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
________________________________
From: "BobsV35B@aol.com" <BobsV35B@aol.com>
Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 11:22:02 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
Good Afternoon Dave and James,
I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a
regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified flying
machines?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
Piper PA-20-150
In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
skywagon@charter.net writes:
James,
>Curious why you change them out so often.
>I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
>
>Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked
> days...? I use Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5
> years, but, they always have a maintainer attached during off flying
> periods. When I do change them out they are still functioning normally
> but, like you, there is a period limit that one feels
>comfortable.
>Dave
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
Ol' Bob,
Always enjoy your sage additions to this and other aviation related
lists.
To answer your question about "Capacity checking". No, I do not do a
formal check annually and probably should. I use other farmer style
method.... Example, .. my 185 is fuel injected. Every once in a while,
I don't hold my gum and tongue in the right place and miss judge a hot
start procedure especially in hot summer time. Next, what comes is
probably the hardest application for a battery.
I can misjudge once or twice a year, and the procedure to clear the
vapor lock in the injection system, clearing the engine, priming
properly and then doing the restart can make an aged battery wheeze. I
use that crude rule of thumb to determine if my battery is just not
making the juice anymore. I don't recommend it, but, it works for me.
In 40 years of flying, I have not been electron deficient.
However, I am a big advocate of using the small Maintainer type devices
to keep the float voltage at par.
David
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: James Robinson
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
In the big scheme of things the battery is a small expense.
Especially the ones mentioned. I do not do a capacity check only
because it is not something I want to spend the time messing with. I
use the removed batteries for other applicatiions.
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: "BobsV35B@aol.com" <BobsV35B@aol.com>
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 11:22:02 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
Good Afternoon Dave and James,
I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on
a regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on
certified flying machines?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
Piper PA-20-150
In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
skywagon@charter.net writes:
James,
Curious why you change them out so often.
I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use
Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they
always have a maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do
change them out they are still functioning normally but, like you, there
is a period limit that one feels comfortable.
Dave
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
>In another thread earlier this weekend I proposed the use of a
>second, parallel master contactor in Z-12 instead of an E-bus to
>accomplish what you are looking for. This would give you the
>potential to fully recover from a contactor failing open in flight
>and still be set up to run off the battery through an alternate path
>if need be.
The e-bus is NOT intended to back up the battery contactor.
The ENDURANCE bus philosophy supplies TWO independent power
paths to electro-whizzies considered most useful for maximizing
a limited energy resource (battery) during alternator failure.
The idea is to SUSTAIN flight battery only to airport of intended
destination or at least MUCH longer than the legacy 30 minute
rule embraced by much of TC aviation.
Contactors have an energy budget that contributes nothing to
running a radio or illuminating a map. Hence the idealized
response to a low-volts warning of shutting down all non-productive
pieces of hardware INCLUDING battery contactors until comforable
arrival with the earth is assured.
The alternate feedpath just happens to BACK up the contactor
but the purpose of the alternate feedpath is to enable sustained,
comfortable operations WITHOUT a contactor. So, if you can
demonstrably do without the contactor under one set of conditions
(loss of alternator) why carry the weight around just to back
it up in the rare event that it fails?
Bob . . .
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
>Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power
>SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate
>landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your
>car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended
>as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to
>sustain the output provided by the SD-20.
Actually, when the endurance-bus was first crafted in a LongEz
about 20 years ago, it was Figure Z1 (ancestor to Z-11) and
the idea was to be able to operate battery only for duration
of fuel aboard.
In other words, craft a Plan-B that used preventative maintenance
of a battery that insured its ability to power a minimal list
of goodies that could keep you on-track for perhaps hours.
As electrically dependent airplanes came along, endurance mode
loads went up which increased the size of batteries to support
it. At the same time, vacuum pumps were falling into disfavor
so the opportunity to support endurance mode loads with an 8A
enhancement was attractive, hence Z-13/8. Even better yet, if
endurance loads could be kept at or below 8A, this held the
battery's entire energy content in reserve for running more
electro-whizzies during approach to landing and without warning
the tower that "my airplane might go dark" during the landing
phase.
>Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long
>past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I
>am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that.
Exactly. In the sum total of all OBAM aircraft under
construction, there are VERY few that cannot sustain
flight on an 8A endurance budget. It only requires that
the builder/operator be willing to put some judicious
thought into what electro-whizzies are really all that
helpful in the task of conserving electrical energy.
>If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to
>what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the
>glove box with the spare batteries.
Contactor failures are rare. Contactors ARE light (under 1#)
and depending on creativity of the installer, can be changed
out with a minimum off tools. I've had a number of builders
state that they intended to carry spares into the Canadian
north country. That isn't the ONLY equipment they carry as
a hedge against small precipitating disasters.
Our FMEA studies on electrical systems is no different
than the FEMA studies that bush pilots have been doing
on the total flight system for nearly 100 years. You trade
off empty weight for features that offset potential failures.
The real task is to not allow imagined or low risks to
drive the task into overkill . . .
Emacs!
Bob . . .
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
At 09:35 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote:
>Hi Bob and all
>
>I'm building a Glasair Super II RG powered by a Mazda Renesis Rotary
>using Tracy Crook's EC2 (injection and ignition) and EM3 (Engine
>monitoring) and using standard starter and a small 40amp modern
>auto. So fully reliant on 14v source power.
>I have a Radio and embedded systems background so I'm not completely
>ignorant of electrons.
>I'm familiar with your Z-19 and have some general questions in order
>to weigh risks.
>
>My questions are:
> * What are the failure modes of Aircraft Batteries?
> * What are the failure modes of auto starter motors?
> * What are the failure modes of auto alternators?
>
>I hope these questions are firstly reasonable and not naive and can
>be answered.
Probably not. The failure modes are legion. To "weigh" risks
you need failure rates to factor into a fault-tree
having calculable probabilities that will drive your
decision making processes.
In FAA parlance, one failure per million flight hours
doesn't need back up, and things that cannot be backed
up (wings falling off) need calculated rates on the
order of one per billion flight hours. The point is
that were anyone on the List willing to give you the
20 page data-dump that your question seems to seek,
you would be no closer to making rational build/buy
decisions.
It's far easier to simply ASSUME those things ARE
going to break in the time that you own the airplane.
Assuming that one of them DOES cease to be flight-worthy,
what are your plans for dealing with it in a graceful
manner. This is called failure tolerant design that
forces you to think about how you put things together.
You're further encouraged to understand and PLAN for how
you'll do without them.
The nice thing about this mode of thought relieves
you of the need to seek and purchase mil-spec, space-rated,
supper parts and HOPE they never fail. You can
buy parts from the hardware store with confidence that
any failure is not going to ruin your day.
See chapter 17 in the 'Connection.
Bob . . .
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Noise in Handheld Tx signal. |
At 06:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote:
>Caldwell" <lrsecaldwell@earthlink.net>
>
>We have a problem with excessive noise occurring in an ICOM A24.
>Receive is good. The noise only occurs in the transmitted signal
>while the engine is running, The noise is so bad the the voice is
>not understandable. If the operator is about 100 ft from the A/B
>with the engine running the noise is down to a level that is acceptable.
>Th hsndheld is completely independent of the a/c. Internal
>batteries and operation on the rubber duckie antenna. A headset is
>used. Two different A24's with different headsets exhibit the same problem.
>
>There are no avionics in the plane except for the handheld. To
>eliminate the possibility of interference from instruments or
>alternator we tested with the master off and the problem still exists.
Then it's not electrical noise. Sounds more like acoustic
noise coming in through the microphone(s).
>Previously the A24 was used acceptably with an open cockpit biplane,
>a Murphy Renegade.
>
>One possibility could be excessive gain using the external mike, but
>I am skeptical since it was acceptable in the biplane
>
>Any suggestions?
You need to identify the nature of the noise. Props sound
different that exhausts which sound different than
ignition, strobes, EL panel inverters, etc.
If you key the hand-held with the external headset
disconnected and a tape over the built in microphone,
is it quiet then?
Bob . . .
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
> Contactors have an energy budget that contributes nothing to
> running a radio or illuminating a map. Hence the idealized
> response to a low-volts warning of shutting down all non-productive
> pieces of hardware INCLUDING battery contactors until comforable
> arrival with the earth is assured.
>
> The alternate feedpath just happens to BACK up the contactor
> but the purpose of the alternate feedpath is to enable sustained,
> comfortable operations WITHOUT a contactor. So, if you can
> demonstrably do without the contactor under one set of conditions
> (loss of alternator) why carry the weight around just to back
> it up in the rare event that it fails?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Hi Bob. I'm glad this came up. In the Z10-8 I'm considering, wouldn't a
switch be more efficient than a relay for the E bus load, assuming a ~10
amp load? (I'm not refering to the brown out relay which I see is
necessary).
What do these little Bosch type cube relays draw?
Thanks, Tim Andres
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I'm looking at using this switch - will it work in a 14v system?
John
--------
#40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288873#288873
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/picture_1_380.png
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]
>
> ...the opportunity to support endurance mode loads with an 8A
> enhancement was attractive, hence Z-13/8. Even better yet, if
> endurance loads could be kept at or below 8A, this held the
> battery's entire energy content in reserve...
The beauty of Z-13/8, is that the endurance bus is really NOT an endurance bus,
as described above, where your range is limited to battery capacity only. Z-13/8
should really be called an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus because you can fly with
any single component failure (excepting battery) for MONTHS. It is not limited
to battery capacity at all, as are Z11 & Z-12. No getting stranded with
Z-13/8. Agreed?
But my technical question remains unanswered. Why does the SD-8 work in this architecture,
while the SD-20 somehow falls apart?
Why changing the capacity of either bus should FORCE a change in overall system
architecture is something that makes no sense to me, and thus far, nobody has
been willing or able to explain. This is a PURELY technical question, and requires
a PURELY technical explanation.
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]
> In the sum total of all OBAM aircraft under construction, there are VERY few
that cannot sustain flight on an 8A endurance budget. It only requires that the
builder/operator be willing to put some judicious thought into what electro-whizzies
are really all that helpful in the task of conserving electrical energy.
This misses the point entirely. Rather than trying to convince people that they
are wrong for wanting an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus with more capacity than 8 amps,
why not explain why a 20 amp UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus powered by an SD-20 is,
somehow, not workable?
I'll say it again, the Z-13 is an elegant architecture. How does upsizing it
force this architecture to fall flat on its face?
--------
Highest Regards,
Noah Forden
RV-7A
Rhode Island
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288880#288880
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
>
>This misses the point entirely. Rather than trying to convince
>people that they are wrong for wanting an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus
>with more capacity than 8 amps, why not explain why a 20 amp
>UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus powered by an SD-20 is, somehow, not workable?
>
>I'll say it again, the Z-13 is an elegant architecture. How does
>upsizing it force this architecture to fall flat on its face?
Z-13/20 would function as advertised. It doesn't fall on
its face . . . it's just not an elegant solution by my
personal judgment . . . I just didn't want to leave
it hanging out there with my name on it.
The SD-8 is a most adequate adjunct to expanding the
horizons on Z-11 in the endurance mode. The SD-20
is a keep-it-all running size of alternator that
encourages the e-bus to become stacked up with lots
more hardware. I think I like the way Z-8 is
coming together. It will accommodate two wound-field
alternators of any combination while supporting a pair
of batteries (with always hot busses) supported by
the two alternators totally independent of the main bus.
The FMEA is looking like the e-bus would go away
completely and the switching gets simpler.
Bob . . .
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below.
The
complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|