Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:05 AM - Re: Z8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Z13/20 ()
3. 08:02 AM - Re: Z-11 Question (David E. Nelson)
4. 08:54 AM - Re: Battery charging (James Robinson)
5. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Andrew Butler)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: Battery charging (David LLoyd)
7. 10:51 AM - Re: Z13/20 (rckol)
8. 11:03 AM - Re: Battery charging (BobsV35B@aol.com)
9. 11:03 AM - Re: Battery charging (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 01:03 PM - Re: Battery charging (James Robinson)
11. 04:02 PM - Re: Battery charging (David LLoyd)
12. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 04:29 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 04:39 PM - Re: Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 04:54 PM - Re: Noise in Handheld Tx signal. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Tim Andres)
17. 07:27 PM - This switch OK? (johngoodman)
18. 07:53 PM - Re: Z13/20 (Noah)
19. 09:08 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 11:11 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
21. 11:16 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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At 08:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote:
>Bob:
>
>Is it going to have 2 LR-3's or an LR-3/SB-1 combination? What's
>the timeframe before we get a peek?
I'm deliberating the ease with which a pair
of IR alternators can be incorporated into a
dual battery, dual alternator, three bus system.
The design goal embraces legacy protocols for
having all fat wires "cold" with switches OFF
and no always hot wires fused at over 7A. The
IR alternator crowbar OV (and ultimately 9011)
integration calls for a b-lead contactor. If
this contactor were mounted next to a battery
contactor it could tie an alternator to the battery
side of the battery contactor instead of the bus
side.
The simplest system would utilize two IR alternators
of any size. Adding external regulators wouldn't
drive up complexity much.
The architecture offers two battery busses
supported directly by their respective alternators.
Each would be operable independently of the other
and of the main bus. No e-bus is needed. I've
about got the drawing done but I'll be out of
town today. Might get it posted late tonight.
Bob . . .
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Noah,
You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you're mission is
complete and redundant reliability while flying over the generally
abandoned Kansas Territory, you've got the wrong approach.
Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power
SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate
landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your
car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended
as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to
sustain the output provided by the SD-20.
Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long
past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I
am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that.
If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to
what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the
glove box with the spare batteries.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noah
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20
Bob, I appreciate the response, but from a technical perspective, it
doesn't give me much to go on.
Let me try my question from a different angle.
I prefer Z-13 over Z-12 because of the salient advantages it offers,
namely that it is a two-layered electrical system, with (as far as I can
tell), very little single point failure potential. With the aux
alternator feeding the battery directly, the main contactor is removed
from the list of single point failure modes requiring landing and
fixing/replacing something. Additionally, a contactor failure does not
take BOTH alternators essentially offline, as occurs with Z12. I
believe that you yourself have said on numerous occasions that Z13 is
your architecture of choice.
When I take a 6000 mile trip, I don't want a main contactor failure to
mean I am on the ground for an hour, a day, or a week waiting for a
replacement. My mission requires that I be able to fly a couple of
thousand miles home, COMFORTABLY, to replace that single failed
electrical component in the comfort of my own hangar. Unless I am
mistaken somehow, Z13 allows this, and Z12 does not.
So the question I will ask again is, what is it about the SD-20 which
makes it not compatible with Z-13, while the SD-8 IS compatible?
Is it because the SD-8 is a dynamo, and needs no flash from the bus? Is
it because the lower current SD-8 driven E-bus can use a backfeed switch
instead of a relay? Something else?
I have searched the archives extensively on this topic and have never
found a direct technical response to this question, despite many
builders who have asked the question in one way or another, and who
require a Z-13 architecture with an up-sized auxiliary alternator and
E-Bus, so that they can FLY COMFORTABLY all the way home, not just to
the next airport.
Z14 doesn't interest me because in my case its complexity isn't needed -
all of my critical flight instruments and nav gear have internal battery
backups and the additional weight and complexity is overkill IMHO.
--------
Highest Regards,
Noah Forden
RV-7A
Rhode Island
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288688#288688
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Subject: | Re: Z-11 Question |
Thank you, Bob.
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 09:15 PM 2/25/2010, you wrote:
>> <david.nelson@pobox.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Looking at Z-11/M, why is the endurance bus protected by a fuse from the
>> battery bus but not the main bus? Is it just for the sake of the switch or
>> something else?
>
> Fuses, breakers, et. als. protect WIRES. They're not
> well applied for the protection of hardware. There's
> a long feeder from a VERY robust current source
> quite capable of toasting the alternate feed path
> wiring . . . hence the fuse or breaker at the battery
> end. The other end is short wires that hopefully
> conform with the 6" or less rule that says protection
> MIGHT not be all that useful or necessary.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
Hi Bob
I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric airplane for
a few years. I usually change them out at annual time. Someone recommended
a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the same size and a few dollars cheaper.
Any comment?
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
Message 5
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Hi Noah,
I'm no expert and my bird is a couple of months away from fire up, but my panel
and all electrics are finished and appear to work. Mine is based on the Z13/8
architecture.
The architecture is a template not a solution. My understanding is that the wares
being offered by the "owners" of this forum are design and engineering oriented
rather than solution oriented, hence the feeling that it is difficult to
get a straight answer when you ask a solution oriented question. A lot of time,
effort and experience has gone into fine tuning the aeroelectric templates.
Even so, there is nothing wrong with putting a SD-20 in place of the SD-8. However,
by changing one of the major components of a design template, you completely
change the profile of the architecture and the original design goals are
no longer a match (more weight, more expense etc.) and it is invalidated.
So if the design goal is to get down safe in the event of an alt failure for the
least weight and cost penalty, even if you are more than an hour from the nearest
airport, then the design that fits the bill is the Z13/8. If you want an
alt failure to be a normal mode of operation, then it is the design that you
deploy has to change, rather than the template you start with.
Andrew Butler
RV7 EI-EEO
Galway, Ireland.
----- Original Message -----
From: longg@pjm.com
Sent: Monday, 1 March, 2010 15:30:23 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20
Noah,
You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you're mission is
complete and redundant reliability while flying over the generally
abandoned Kansas Territory, you've got the wrong approach.
Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power
SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate
landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your
car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended
as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to
sustain the output provided by the SD-20.
Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long
past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I
am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that.
If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to
what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the
glove box with the spare batteries.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noah
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20
Bob, I appreciate the response, but from a technical perspective, it
doesn't give me much to go on.
Let me try my question from a different angle.
I prefer Z-13 over Z-12 because of the salient advantages it offers,
namely that it is a two-layered electrical system, with (as far as I can
tell), very little single point failure potential. With the aux
alternator feeding the battery directly, the main contactor is removed
from the list of single point failure modes requiring landing and
fixing/replacing something. Additionally, a contactor failure does not
take BOTH alternators essentially offline, as occurs with Z12. I
believe that you yourself have said on numerous occasions that Z13 is
your architecture of choice.
When I take a 6000 mile trip, I don't want a main contactor failure to
mean I am on the ground for an hour, a day, or a week waiting for a
replacement. My mission requires that I be able to fly a couple of
thousand miles home, COMFORTABLY, to replace that single failed
electrical component in the comfort of my own hangar. Unless I am
mistaken somehow, Z13 allows this, and Z12 does not.
So the question I will ask again is, what is it about the SD-20 which
makes it not compatible with Z-13, while the SD-8 IS compatible?
Is it because the SD-8 is a dynamo, and needs no flash from the bus? Is
it because the lower current SD-8 driven E-bus can use a backfeed switch
instead of a relay? Something else?
I have searched the archives extensively on this topic and have never
found a direct technical response to this question, despite many
builders who have asked the question in one way or another, and who
require a Z-13 architecture with an up-sized auxiliary alternator and
E-Bus, so that they can FLY COMFORTABLY all the way home, not just to
the next airport.
Z14 doesn't interest me because in my case its complexity isn't needed -
all of my critical flight instruments and nav gear have internal battery
backups and the additional weight and complexity is overkill IMHO.
--------
Highest Regards,
Noah Forden
RV-7A
Rhode Island
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288688#288688
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
James,
Curious why you change them out so often.
I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords
and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have
a maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them
out they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period
limit that one feels comfortable.
Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: James Robinson
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
Hi Bob
I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric
airplane for a few years. I usually change them out at annual time.
Someone recommended a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the
same size and a few dollars cheaper. Any comment?
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
Message 7
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Noah,
In another thread earlier this weekend I proposed the use of a second, parallel
master contactor in Z-12 instead of an E-bus to accomplish what you are looking
for. This would give you the potential to fully recover from a contactor failing
open in flight and still be set up to run off the battery through an alternate
path if need be.
You might use contactors with low holding current, like an EV-200, or a standard
contactor with the gizmo Bob is working on to reduce the holding current for
Plan C (battery only ops)
Dick Kaehler
--------
rck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288794#288794
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
Good Afternoon Dave and James,
I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a
regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified
flying machines?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
Piper PA-20-150
In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
skywagon@charter.net writes:
James,
Curious why you change them out so often.
I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords
and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have a
maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them out
they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period limit
that one feels comfortable.
Dave
____________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: _James Robinson_ (mailto:jbr79r@yahoo.com)
(mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
Hi Bob
I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric airplane
for a few years. I usually change them out at annual time. Someone
recommended a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the same size and a
few dollars cheaper. Any comment?
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
Good Afternoon Dave and James,
I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a
regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified
flying machines?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
Piper PA-20-150
In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
skywagon@charter.net writes:
James,
Curious why you change them out so often.
I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords
and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have a
maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them out
they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period limit
that one feels comfortable.
Dave
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
In the big scheme of things the battery is a small expense. Especially the ones
mentioned. I do not do a capacity check only because it is not something I
want to spend the time messing with. I use the removed batteries for other applicatiions.
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
________________________________
From: "BobsV35B@aol.com" <BobsV35B@aol.com>
Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 11:22:02 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
Good Afternoon Dave and James,
I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a
regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified flying
machines?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
Piper PA-20-150
In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
skywagon@charter.net writes:
James,
>Curious why you change them out so often.
>I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
>
>Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked
> days...? I use Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5
> years, but, they always have a maintainer attached during off flying
> periods. When I do change them out they are still functioning normally
> but, like you, there is a period limit that one feels
>comfortable.
>Dave
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Battery charging |
Ol' Bob,
Always enjoy your sage additions to this and other aviation related
lists.
To answer your question about "Capacity checking". No, I do not do a
formal check annually and probably should. I use other farmer style
method.... Example, .. my 185 is fuel injected. Every once in a while,
I don't hold my gum and tongue in the right place and miss judge a hot
start procedure especially in hot summer time. Next, what comes is
probably the hardest application for a battery.
I can misjudge once or twice a year, and the procedure to clear the
vapor lock in the injection system, clearing the engine, priming
properly and then doing the restart can make an aged battery wheeze. I
use that crude rule of thumb to determine if my battery is just not
making the juice anymore. I don't recommend it, but, it works for me.
In 40 years of flying, I have not been electron deficient.
However, I am a big advocate of using the small Maintainer type devices
to keep the float voltage at par.
David
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: James Robinson
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
In the big scheme of things the battery is a small expense.
Especially the ones mentioned. I do not do a capacity check only
because it is not something I want to spend the time messing with. I
use the removed batteries for other applicatiions.
Jim
James Robinson
Glasair lll N79R
Spanish Fork UT U77
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: "BobsV35B@aol.com" <BobsV35B@aol.com>
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 11:22:02 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging
Good Afternoon Dave and James,
I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on
a regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on
certified flying machines?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
LL22
Piper PA-20-150
In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
skywagon@charter.net writes:
James,
Curious why you change them out so often.
I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries.
Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use
Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they
always have a maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do
change them out they are still functioning normally but, like you, there
is a period limit that one feels comfortable.
Dave
Message 12
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>In another thread earlier this weekend I proposed the use of a
>second, parallel master contactor in Z-12 instead of an E-bus to
>accomplish what you are looking for. This would give you the
>potential to fully recover from a contactor failing open in flight
>and still be set up to run off the battery through an alternate path
>if need be.
The e-bus is NOT intended to back up the battery contactor.
The ENDURANCE bus philosophy supplies TWO independent power
paths to electro-whizzies considered most useful for maximizing
a limited energy resource (battery) during alternator failure.
The idea is to SUSTAIN flight battery only to airport of intended
destination or at least MUCH longer than the legacy 30 minute
rule embraced by much of TC aviation.
Contactors have an energy budget that contributes nothing to
running a radio or illuminating a map. Hence the idealized
response to a low-volts warning of shutting down all non-productive
pieces of hardware INCLUDING battery contactors until comforable
arrival with the earth is assured.
The alternate feedpath just happens to BACK up the contactor
but the purpose of the alternate feedpath is to enable sustained,
comfortable operations WITHOUT a contactor. So, if you can
demonstrably do without the contactor under one set of conditions
(loss of alternator) why carry the weight around just to back
it up in the rare event that it fails?
Bob . . .
Message 13
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>Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power
>SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate
>landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your
>car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended
>as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to
>sustain the output provided by the SD-20.
Actually, when the endurance-bus was first crafted in a LongEz
about 20 years ago, it was Figure Z1 (ancestor to Z-11) and
the idea was to be able to operate battery only for duration
of fuel aboard.
In other words, craft a Plan-B that used preventative maintenance
of a battery that insured its ability to power a minimal list
of goodies that could keep you on-track for perhaps hours.
As electrically dependent airplanes came along, endurance mode
loads went up which increased the size of batteries to support
it. At the same time, vacuum pumps were falling into disfavor
so the opportunity to support endurance mode loads with an 8A
enhancement was attractive, hence Z-13/8. Even better yet, if
endurance loads could be kept at or below 8A, this held the
battery's entire energy content in reserve for running more
electro-whizzies during approach to landing and without warning
the tower that "my airplane might go dark" during the landing
phase.
>Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long
>past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I
>am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that.
Exactly. In the sum total of all OBAM aircraft under
construction, there are VERY few that cannot sustain
flight on an 8A endurance budget. It only requires that
the builder/operator be willing to put some judicious
thought into what electro-whizzies are really all that
helpful in the task of conserving electrical energy.
>If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to
>what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the
>glove box with the spare batteries.
Contactor failures are rare. Contactors ARE light (under 1#)
and depending on creativity of the installer, can be changed
out with a minimum off tools. I've had a number of builders
state that they intended to carry spares into the Canadian
north country. That isn't the ONLY equipment they carry as
a hedge against small precipitating disasters.
Our FMEA studies on electrical systems is no different
than the FEMA studies that bush pilots have been doing
on the total flight system for nearly 100 years. You trade
off empty weight for features that offset potential failures.
The real task is to not allow imagined or low risks to
drive the task into overkill . . .
Emacs!
Bob . . .
Message 14
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At 09:35 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote:
>Hi Bob and all
>
>I'm building a Glasair Super II RG powered by a Mazda Renesis Rotary
>using Tracy Crook's EC2 (injection and ignition) and EM3 (Engine
>monitoring) and using standard starter and a small 40amp modern
>auto. So fully reliant on 14v source power.
>I have a Radio and embedded systems background so I'm not completely
>ignorant of electrons.
>I'm familiar with your Z-19 and have some general questions in order
>to weigh risks.
>
>My questions are:
> * What are the failure modes of Aircraft Batteries?
> * What are the failure modes of auto starter motors?
> * What are the failure modes of auto alternators?
>
>I hope these questions are firstly reasonable and not naive and can
>be answered.
Probably not. The failure modes are legion. To "weigh" risks
you need failure rates to factor into a fault-tree
having calculable probabilities that will drive your
decision making processes.
In FAA parlance, one failure per million flight hours
doesn't need back up, and things that cannot be backed
up (wings falling off) need calculated rates on the
order of one per billion flight hours. The point is
that were anyone on the List willing to give you the
20 page data-dump that your question seems to seek,
you would be no closer to making rational build/buy
decisions.
It's far easier to simply ASSUME those things ARE
going to break in the time that you own the airplane.
Assuming that one of them DOES cease to be flight-worthy,
what are your plans for dealing with it in a graceful
manner. This is called failure tolerant design that
forces you to think about how you put things together.
You're further encouraged to understand and PLAN for how
you'll do without them.
The nice thing about this mode of thought relieves
you of the need to seek and purchase mil-spec, space-rated,
supper parts and HOPE they never fail. You can
buy parts from the hardware store with confidence that
any failure is not going to ruin your day.
See chapter 17 in the 'Connection.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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|
Subject: | Re: Noise in Handheld Tx signal. |
At 06:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote:
>Caldwell" <lrsecaldwell@earthlink.net>
>
>We have a problem with excessive noise occurring in an ICOM A24.
>Receive is good. The noise only occurs in the transmitted signal
>while the engine is running, The noise is so bad the the voice is
>not understandable. If the operator is about 100 ft from the A/B
>with the engine running the noise is down to a level that is acceptable.
>Th hsndheld is completely independent of the a/c. Internal
>batteries and operation on the rubber duckie antenna. A headset is
>used. Two different A24's with different headsets exhibit the same problem.
>
>There are no avionics in the plane except for the handheld. To
>eliminate the possibility of interference from instruments or
>alternator we tested with the master off and the problem still exists.
Then it's not electrical noise. Sounds more like acoustic
noise coming in through the microphone(s).
>Previously the A24 was used acceptably with an open cockpit biplane,
>a Murphy Renegade.
>
>One possibility could be excessive gain using the external mike, but
>I am skeptical since it was acceptable in the biplane
>
>Any suggestions?
You need to identify the nature of the noise. Props sound
different that exhausts which sound different than
ignition, strobes, EL panel inverters, etc.
If you key the hand-held with the external headset
disconnected and a tape over the built in microphone,
is it quiet then?
Bob . . .
Message 16
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|
> Contactors have an energy budget that contributes nothing to
> running a radio or illuminating a map. Hence the idealized
> response to a low-volts warning of shutting down all non-productive
> pieces of hardware INCLUDING battery contactors until comforable
> arrival with the earth is assured.
>
> The alternate feedpath just happens to BACK up the contactor
> but the purpose of the alternate feedpath is to enable sustained,
> comfortable operations WITHOUT a contactor. So, if you can
> demonstrably do without the contactor under one set of conditions
> (loss of alternator) why carry the weight around just to back
> it up in the rare event that it fails?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Hi Bob. I'm glad this came up. In the Z10-8 I'm considering, wouldn't a
switch be more efficient than a relay for the E bus load, assuming a ~10
amp load? (I'm not refering to the brown out relay which I see is
necessary).
What do these little Bosch type cube relays draw?
Thanks, Tim Andres
Message 17
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|
I'm looking at using this switch - will it work in a 14v system?
John
--------
#40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288873#288873
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/picture_1_380.png
Message 18
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|
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]
>
> ...the opportunity to support endurance mode loads with an 8A
> enhancement was attractive, hence Z-13/8. Even better yet, if
> endurance loads could be kept at or below 8A, this held the
> battery's entire energy content in reserve...
The beauty of Z-13/8, is that the endurance bus is really NOT an endurance bus,
as described above, where your range is limited to battery capacity only. Z-13/8
should really be called an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus because you can fly with
any single component failure (excepting battery) for MONTHS. It is not limited
to battery capacity at all, as are Z11 & Z-12. No getting stranded with
Z-13/8. Agreed?
But my technical question remains unanswered. Why does the SD-8 work in this architecture,
while the SD-20 somehow falls apart?
Why changing the capacity of either bus should FORCE a change in overall system
architecture is something that makes no sense to me, and thus far, nobody has
been willing or able to explain. This is a PURELY technical question, and requires
a PURELY technical explanation.
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]
> In the sum total of all OBAM aircraft under construction, there are VERY few
that cannot sustain flight on an 8A endurance budget. It only requires that the
builder/operator be willing to put some judicious thought into what electro-whizzies
are really all that helpful in the task of conserving electrical energy.
This misses the point entirely. Rather than trying to convince people that they
are wrong for wanting an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus with more capacity than 8 amps,
why not explain why a 20 amp UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus powered by an SD-20 is,
somehow, not workable?
I'll say it again, the Z-13 is an elegant architecture. How does upsizing it
force this architecture to fall flat on its face?
--------
Highest Regards,
Noah Forden
RV-7A
Rhode Island
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288880#288880
Message 19
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>
>This misses the point entirely. Rather than trying to convince
>people that they are wrong for wanting an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus
>with more capacity than 8 amps, why not explain why a 20 amp
>UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus powered by an SD-20 is, somehow, not workable?
>
>I'll say it again, the Z-13 is an elegant architecture. How does
>upsizing it force this architecture to fall flat on its face?
Z-13/20 would function as advertised. It doesn't fall on
its face . . . it's just not an elegant solution by my
personal judgment . . . I just didn't want to leave
it hanging out there with my name on it.
The SD-8 is a most adequate adjunct to expanding the
horizons on Z-11 in the endurance mode. The SD-20
is a keep-it-all running size of alternator that
encourages the e-bus to become stacked up with lots
more hardware. I think I like the way Z-8 is
coming together. It will accommodate two wound-field
alternators of any combination while supporting a pair
of batteries (with always hot busses) supported by
the two alternators totally independent of the main bus.
The FMEA is looking like the e-bus would go away
completely and the switching gets simpler.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below.
The
complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
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******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
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Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
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Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
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Look for the link "Image Resizer"
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*******************
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in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
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ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
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****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
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!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
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2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
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Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
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For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
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*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
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******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
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- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
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- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
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about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
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- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
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- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
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-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 21
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Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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