---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/01/10: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Re: Z8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Z13/20 () 3. 08:02 AM - Re: Z-11 Question (David E. Nelson) 4. 08:54 AM - Re: Battery charging (James Robinson) 5. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Andrew Butler) 6. 09:39 AM - Re: Battery charging (David LLoyd) 7. 10:51 AM - Re: Z13/20 (rckol) 8. 11:03 AM - Re: Battery charging (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 11:03 AM - Re: Battery charging (BobsV35B@aol.com) 10. 01:03 PM - Re: Battery charging (James Robinson) 11. 04:02 PM - Re: Battery charging (David LLoyd) 12. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 04:29 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 04:39 PM - Re: Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 04:54 PM - Re: Noise in Handheld Tx signal. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Tim Andres) 17. 07:27 PM - This switch OK? (johngoodman) 18. 07:53 PM - Re: Z13/20 (Noah) 19. 09:08 PM - Re: Re: Z13/20 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 11:11 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 21. 11:16 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z8 At 08:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >Bob: > >Is it going to have 2 LR-3's or an LR-3/SB-1 combination? What's >the timeframe before we get a peek? I'm deliberating the ease with which a pair of IR alternators can be incorporated into a dual battery, dual alternator, three bus system. The design goal embraces legacy protocols for having all fat wires "cold" with switches OFF and no always hot wires fused at over 7A. The IR alternator crowbar OV (and ultimately 9011) integration calls for a b-lead contactor. If this contactor were mounted next to a battery contactor it could tie an alternator to the battery side of the battery contactor instead of the bus side. The simplest system would utilize two IR alternators of any size. Adding external regulators wouldn't drive up complexity much. The architecture offers two battery busses supported directly by their respective alternators. Each would be operable independently of the other and of the main bus. No e-bus is needed. I've about got the drawing done but I'll be out of town today. Might get it posted late tonight. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 From: Noah, You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you're mission is complete and redundant reliability while flying over the generally abandoned Kansas Territory, you've got the wrong approach. Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to sustain the output provided by the SD-20. Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that. If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the glove box with the spare batteries. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noah Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:37 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 Bob, I appreciate the response, but from a technical perspective, it doesn't give me much to go on. Let me try my question from a different angle. I prefer Z-13 over Z-12 because of the salient advantages it offers, namely that it is a two-layered electrical system, with (as far as I can tell), very little single point failure potential. With the aux alternator feeding the battery directly, the main contactor is removed from the list of single point failure modes requiring landing and fixing/replacing something. Additionally, a contactor failure does not take BOTH alternators essentially offline, as occurs with Z12. I believe that you yourself have said on numerous occasions that Z13 is your architecture of choice. When I take a 6000 mile trip, I don't want a main contactor failure to mean I am on the ground for an hour, a day, or a week waiting for a replacement. My mission requires that I be able to fly a couple of thousand miles home, COMFORTABLY, to replace that single failed electrical component in the comfort of my own hangar. Unless I am mistaken somehow, Z13 allows this, and Z12 does not. So the question I will ask again is, what is it about the SD-20 which makes it not compatible with Z-13, while the SD-8 IS compatible? Is it because the SD-8 is a dynamo, and needs no flash from the bus? Is it because the lower current SD-8 driven E-bus can use a backfeed switch instead of a relay? Something else? I have searched the archives extensively on this topic and have never found a direct technical response to this question, despite many builders who have asked the question in one way or another, and who require a Z-13 architecture with an up-sized auxiliary alternator and E-Bus, so that they can FLY COMFORTABLY all the way home, not just to the next airport. Z14 doesn't interest me because in my case its complexity isn't needed - all of my critical flight instruments and nav gear have internal battery backups and the additional weight and complexity is overkill IMHO. -------- Highest Regards, Noah Forden RV-7A Rhode Island Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288688#288688 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:04 AM PST US From: "David E. Nelson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-11 Question Thank you, Bob. /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:15 PM 2/25/2010, you wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> Looking at Z-11/M, why is the endurance bus protected by a fuse from the >> battery bus but not the main bus? Is it just for the sake of the switch or >> something else? > > Fuses, breakers, et. als. protect WIRES. They're not > well applied for the protection of hardware. There's > a long feeder from a VERY robust current source > quite capable of toasting the alternate feed path > wiring . . . hence the fuse or breaker at the battery > end. The other end is short wires that hopefully > conform with the 6" or less rule that says protection > MIGHT not be all that useful or necessary. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:46 AM PST US From: James Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging Hi Bob I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric airplane for a few years. I usually change them out at annual time. Someone recommended a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the same size and a few dollars cheaper. Any comment? Jim James Robinson Glasair lll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:50 AM PST US From: Andrew Butler Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 Hi Noah, I'm no expert and my bird is a couple of months away from fire up, but my panel and all electrics are finished and appear to work. Mine is based on the Z13/8 architecture. The architecture is a template not a solution. My understanding is that the wares being offered by the "owners" of this forum are design and engineering oriented rather than solution oriented, hence the feeling that it is difficult to get a straight answer when you ask a solution oriented question. A lot of time, effort and experience has gone into fine tuning the aeroelectric templates. Even so, there is nothing wrong with putting a SD-20 in place of the SD-8. However, by changing one of the major components of a design template, you completely change the profile of the architecture and the original design goals are no longer a match (more weight, more expense etc.) and it is invalidated. So if the design goal is to get down safe in the event of an alt failure for the least weight and cost penalty, even if you are more than an hour from the nearest airport, then the design that fits the bill is the Z13/8. If you want an alt failure to be a normal mode of operation, then it is the design that you deploy has to change, rather than the template you start with. Andrew Butler RV7 EI-EEO Galway, Ireland. ----- Original Message ----- From: longg@pjm.com Sent: Monday, 1 March, 2010 15:30:23 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 Noah, You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you're mission is complete and redundant reliability while flying over the generally abandoned Kansas Territory, you've got the wrong approach. Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to sustain the output provided by the SD-20. Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that. If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the glove box with the spare batteries. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noah Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:37 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 Bob, I appreciate the response, but from a technical perspective, it doesn't give me much to go on. Let me try my question from a different angle. I prefer Z-13 over Z-12 because of the salient advantages it offers, namely that it is a two-layered electrical system, with (as far as I can tell), very little single point failure potential. With the aux alternator feeding the battery directly, the main contactor is removed from the list of single point failure modes requiring landing and fixing/replacing something. Additionally, a contactor failure does not take BOTH alternators essentially offline, as occurs with Z12. I believe that you yourself have said on numerous occasions that Z13 is your architecture of choice. When I take a 6000 mile trip, I don't want a main contactor failure to mean I am on the ground for an hour, a day, or a week waiting for a replacement. My mission requires that I be able to fly a couple of thousand miles home, COMFORTABLY, to replace that single failed electrical component in the comfort of my own hangar. Unless I am mistaken somehow, Z13 allows this, and Z12 does not. So the question I will ask again is, what is it about the SD-20 which makes it not compatible with Z-13, while the SD-8 IS compatible? Is it because the SD-8 is a dynamo, and needs no flash from the bus? Is it because the lower current SD-8 driven E-bus can use a backfeed switch instead of a relay? Something else? I have searched the archives extensively on this topic and have never found a direct technical response to this question, despite many builders who have asked the question in one way or another, and who require a Z-13 architecture with an up-sized auxiliary alternator and E-Bus, so that they can FLY COMFORTABLY all the way home, not just to the next airport. Z14 doesn't interest me because in my case its complexity isn't needed - all of my critical flight instruments and nav gear have internal battery backups and the additional weight and complexity is overkill IMHO. -------- Highest Regards, Noah Forden RV-7A Rhode Island Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288688#288688 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:21 AM PST US From: "David LLoyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging James, Curious why you change them out so often. I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries. Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have a maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them out they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period limit that one feels comfortable. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: James Robinson To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:44 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging Hi Bob I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric airplane for a few years. I usually change them out at annual time. Someone recommended a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the same size and a few dollars cheaper. Any comment? Jim James Robinson Glasair lll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:46 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 From: "rckol" Noah, In another thread earlier this weekend I proposed the use of a second, parallel master contactor in Z-12 instead of an E-bus to accomplish what you are looking for. This would give you the potential to fully recover from a contactor failing open in flight and still be set up to run off the battery through an alternate path if need be. You might use contactors with low holding current, like an EV-200, or a standard contactor with the gizmo Bob is working on to reduce the holding current for Plan C (battery only ops) Dick Kaehler -------- rck Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288794#288794 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:33 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging Good Afternoon Dave and James, I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified flying machines? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove, Illinois LL22 Piper PA-20-150 In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, skywagon@charter.net writes: James, Curious why you change them out so often. I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries. Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have a maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them out they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period limit that one feels comfortable. Dave ____________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: _James Robinson_ (mailto:jbr79r@yahoo.com) (mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com) Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:44 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging Hi Bob I have been using Panasonic 17AH batteries (2) in my all electric airplane for a few years. I usually change them out at annual time. Someone recommended a 20 AH CSB from m&B battery company. It is the same size and a few dollars cheaper. Any comment? Jim James Robinson Glasair lll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:33 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging Good Afternoon Dave and James, I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified flying machines? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove, Illinois LL22 Piper PA-20-150 In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, skywagon@charter.net writes: James, Curious why you change them out so often. I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries. Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have a maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them out they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period limit that one feels comfortable. Dave ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:59 PM PST US From: James Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging In the big scheme of things the battery is a small expense. Especially the ones mentioned. I do not do a capacity check only because it is not something I want to spend the time messing with. I use the removed batteries for other applicatiions. Jim James Robinson Glasair lll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 ________________________________ From: "BobsV35B@aol.com" Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 11:22:02 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging Good Afternoon Dave and James, I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified flying machines? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove, Illinois LL22 Piper PA-20-150 In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, skywagon@charter.net writes: James, >Curious why you change them out so often. >I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries. > >Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked > days...? I use Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 > years, but, they always have a maintainer attached during off flying > periods. When I do change them out they are still functioning normally > but, like you, there is a period limit that one feels >comfortable. >Dave ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:54 PM PST US From: "David LLoyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging Ol' Bob, Always enjoy your sage additions to this and other aviation related lists. To answer your question about "Capacity checking". No, I do not do a formal check annually and probably should. I use other farmer style method.... Example, .. my 185 is fuel injected. Every once in a while, I don't hold my gum and tongue in the right place and miss judge a hot start procedure especially in hot summer time. Next, what comes is probably the hardest application for a battery. I can misjudge once or twice a year, and the procedure to clear the vapor lock in the injection system, clearing the engine, priming properly and then doing the restart can make an aged battery wheeze. I use that crude rule of thumb to determine if my battery is just not making the juice anymore. I don't recommend it, but, it works for me. In 40 years of flying, I have not been electron deficient. However, I am a big advocate of using the small Maintainer type devices to keep the float voltage at par. David ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: James Robinson To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 12:10 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging In the big scheme of things the battery is a small expense. Especially the ones mentioned. I do not do a capacity check only because it is not something I want to spend the time messing with. I use the removed batteries for other applicatiions. Jim James Robinson Glasair lll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: "BobsV35B@aol.com" To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 11:22:02 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charging Good Afternoon Dave and James, I am curious as to whether or not either of you run capacity checks on a regular basis. Isn't that the way the FEDs like us to do it on certified flying machines? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Downers Grove, Illinois LL22 Piper PA-20-150 In a message dated 3/1/2010 11:41:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, skywagon@charter.net writes: James, Curious why you change them out so often. I'll assume they are fairly expensive batteries. Do you use a "maintainer" on them on the parked days...? I use Concords and Gill. These get maybe changed out in 5 years, but, they always have a maintainer attached during off flying periods. When I do change them out they are still functioning normally but, like you, there is a period limit that one feels comfortable. Dave ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 >In another thread earlier this weekend I proposed the use of a >second, parallel master contactor in Z-12 instead of an E-bus to >accomplish what you are looking for. This would give you the >potential to fully recover from a contactor failing open in flight >and still be set up to run off the battery through an alternate path >if need be. The e-bus is NOT intended to back up the battery contactor. The ENDURANCE bus philosophy supplies TWO independent power paths to electro-whizzies considered most useful for maximizing a limited energy resource (battery) during alternator failure. The idea is to SUSTAIN flight battery only to airport of intended destination or at least MUCH longer than the legacy 30 minute rule embraced by much of TC aviation. Contactors have an energy budget that contributes nothing to running a radio or illuminating a map. Hence the idealized response to a low-volts warning of shutting down all non-productive pieces of hardware INCLUDING battery contactors until comforable arrival with the earth is assured. The alternate feedpath just happens to BACK up the contactor but the purpose of the alternate feedpath is to enable sustained, comfortable operations WITHOUT a contactor. So, if you can demonstrably do without the contactor under one set of conditions (loss of alternator) why carry the weight around just to back it up in the rare event that it fails? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:13 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 >Z-13/8 is designed for emergency redundancy and yes the lower power >SD-8. This should be read as minimum required equipment to facilitate >landing at the nearest facility (the tiny spare tire in the back of your >car has the same design goal - pretty simple eh?). Z-13 was not intended >as an all out fully redundant Rambo system, nor is it designed to >sustain the output provided by the SD-20. Actually, when the endurance-bus was first crafted in a LongEz about 20 years ago, it was Figure Z1 (ancestor to Z-11) and the idea was to be able to operate battery only for duration of fuel aboard. In other words, craft a Plan-B that used preventative maintenance of a battery that insured its ability to power a minimal list of goodies that could keep you on-track for perhaps hours. As electrically dependent airplanes came along, endurance mode loads went up which increased the size of batteries to support it. At the same time, vacuum pumps were falling into disfavor so the opportunity to support endurance mode loads with an 8A enhancement was attractive, hence Z-13/8. Even better yet, if endurance loads could be kept at or below 8A, this held the battery's entire energy content in reserve for running more electro-whizzies during approach to landing and without warning the tower that "my airplane might go dark" during the landing phase. >Truth is, if you have the right equipment in your panel you can fly long >past the Kansas Territory running with the SD-8. I can do the same and I >am flying all electric. It doesn't get more desperate than that. Exactly. In the sum total of all OBAM aircraft under construction, there are VERY few that cannot sustain flight on an 8A endurance budget. It only requires that the builder/operator be willing to put some judicious thought into what electro-whizzies are really all that helpful in the task of conserving electrical energy. >If you don't have the stomach to build out a Z-12 or Z-14 (closer to >what you want), than buy the twenty dollar contactor and throw it in the >glove box with the spare batteries. Contactor failures are rare. Contactors ARE light (under 1#) and depending on creativity of the installer, can be changed out with a minimum off tools. I've had a number of builders state that they intended to carry spares into the Canadian north country. That isn't the ONLY equipment they carry as a hedge against small precipitating disasters. Our FMEA studies on electrical systems is no different than the FEMA studies that bush pilots have been doing on the total flight system for nearly 100 years. You trade off empty weight for features that offset potential failures. The real task is to not allow imagined or low risks to drive the task into overkill . . . Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Questions At 09:35 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >Hi Bob and all > >I'm building a Glasair Super II RG powered by a Mazda Renesis Rotary >using Tracy Crook's EC2 (injection and ignition) and EM3 (Engine >monitoring) and using standard starter and a small 40amp modern >auto. So fully reliant on 14v source power. >I have a Radio and embedded systems background so I'm not completely >ignorant of electrons. >I'm familiar with your Z-19 and have some general questions in order >to weigh risks. > >My questions are: > * What are the failure modes of Aircraft Batteries? > * What are the failure modes of auto starter motors? > * What are the failure modes of auto alternators? > >I hope these questions are firstly reasonable and not naive and can >be answered. Probably not. The failure modes are legion. To "weigh" risks you need failure rates to factor into a fault-tree having calculable probabilities that will drive your decision making processes. In FAA parlance, one failure per million flight hours doesn't need back up, and things that cannot be backed up (wings falling off) need calculated rates on the order of one per billion flight hours. The point is that were anyone on the List willing to give you the 20 page data-dump that your question seems to seek, you would be no closer to making rational build/buy decisions. It's far easier to simply ASSUME those things ARE going to break in the time that you own the airplane. Assuming that one of them DOES cease to be flight-worthy, what are your plans for dealing with it in a graceful manner. This is called failure tolerant design that forces you to think about how you put things together. You're further encouraged to understand and PLAN for how you'll do without them. The nice thing about this mode of thought relieves you of the need to seek and purchase mil-spec, space-rated, supper parts and HOPE they never fail. You can buy parts from the hardware store with confidence that any failure is not going to ruin your day. See chapter 17 in the 'Connection. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Noise in Handheld Tx signal. At 06:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >Caldwell" > >We have a problem with excessive noise occurring in an ICOM A24. >Receive is good. The noise only occurs in the transmitted signal >while the engine is running, The noise is so bad the the voice is >not understandable. If the operator is about 100 ft from the A/B >with the engine running the noise is down to a level that is acceptable. >Th hsndheld is completely independent of the a/c. Internal >batteries and operation on the rubber duckie antenna. A headset is >used. Two different A24's with different headsets exhibit the same problem. > >There are no avionics in the plane except for the handheld. To >eliminate the possibility of interference from instruments or >alternator we tested with the master off and the problem still exists. Then it's not electrical noise. Sounds more like acoustic noise coming in through the microphone(s). >Previously the A24 was used acceptably with an open cockpit biplane, >a Murphy Renegade. > >One possibility could be excessive gain using the external mike, but >I am skeptical since it was acceptable in the biplane > >Any suggestions? You need to identify the nature of the noise. Props sound different that exhausts which sound different than ignition, strobes, EL panel inverters, etc. If you key the hand-held with the external headset disconnected and a tape over the built in microphone, is it quiet then? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:11 PM PST US From: Tim Andres Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 > Contactors have an energy budget that contributes nothing to > running a radio or illuminating a map. Hence the idealized > response to a low-volts warning of shutting down all non-productive > pieces of hardware INCLUDING battery contactors until comforable > arrival with the earth is assured. > > The alternate feedpath just happens to BACK up the contactor > but the purpose of the alternate feedpath is to enable sustained, > comfortable operations WITHOUT a contactor. So, if you can > demonstrably do without the contactor under one set of conditions > (loss of alternator) why carry the weight around just to back > it up in the rare event that it fails? > > Bob . . . > > Hi Bob. I'm glad this came up. In the Z10-8 I'm considering, wouldn't a switch be more efficient than a relay for the E bus load, assuming a ~10 amp load? (I'm not refering to the brown out relay which I see is necessary). What do these little Bosch type cube relays draw? Thanks, Tim Andres ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:45 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: This switch OK? From: "johngoodman" I'm looking at using this switch - will it work in a 14v system? John -------- #40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon. N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288873#288873 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/picture_1_380.png ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 From: "Noah" [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] > > ...the opportunity to support endurance mode loads with an 8A > enhancement was attractive, hence Z-13/8. Even better yet, if > endurance loads could be kept at or below 8A, this held the > battery's entire energy content in reserve... The beauty of Z-13/8, is that the endurance bus is really NOT an endurance bus, as described above, where your range is limited to battery capacity only. Z-13/8 should really be called an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus because you can fly with any single component failure (excepting battery) for MONTHS. It is not limited to battery capacity at all, as are Z11 & Z-12. No getting stranded with Z-13/8. Agreed? But my technical question remains unanswered. Why does the SD-8 work in this architecture, while the SD-20 somehow falls apart? Why changing the capacity of either bus should FORCE a change in overall system architecture is something that makes no sense to me, and thus far, nobody has been willing or able to explain. This is a PURELY technical question, and requires a PURELY technical explanation. [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] > In the sum total of all OBAM aircraft under construction, there are VERY few that cannot sustain flight on an 8A endurance budget. It only requires that the builder/operator be willing to put some judicious thought into what electro-whizzies are really all that helpful in the task of conserving electrical energy. This misses the point entirely. Rather than trying to convince people that they are wrong for wanting an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus with more capacity than 8 amps, why not explain why a 20 amp UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus powered by an SD-20 is, somehow, not workable? I'll say it again, the Z-13 is an elegant architecture. How does upsizing it force this architecture to fall flat on its face? -------- Highest Regards, Noah Forden RV-7A Rhode Island Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288880#288880 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z13/20 > >This misses the point entirely. Rather than trying to convince >people that they are wrong for wanting an UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus >with more capacity than 8 amps, why not explain why a 20 amp >UNLIMITED ENDURANCE bus powered by an SD-20 is, somehow, not workable? > >I'll say it again, the Z-13 is an elegant architecture. How does >upsizing it force this architecture to fall flat on its face? Z-13/20 would function as advertised. It doesn't fall on its face . . . it's just not an elegant solution by my personal judgment . . . I just didn't want to leave it hanging out there with my name on it. The SD-8 is a most adequate adjunct to expanding the horizons on Z-11 in the endurance mode. The SD-20 is a keep-it-all running size of alternator that encourages the e-bus to become stacked up with lots more hardware. I think I like the way Z-8 is coming together. It will accommodate two wound-field alternators of any combination while supporting a pair of batteries (with always hot busses) supported by the two alternators totally independent of the main bus. The FMEA is looking like the e-bus would go away completely and the switching gets simpler. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:54 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:54 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.