---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/04/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:29 AM - Re: This switch OK? (tomcostanza) 2. 04:21 AM - Strobe noise (Sam Hoskins) 3. 05:24 AM - This switch OK? () 4. 05:51 AM - Re: Strobe noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:48 AM - Re: This switch OK? (johngoodman) 6. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: This switch OK? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:36 AM - Re: Battery charging (Speedy11@aol.com) 8. 08:43 AM - Re: This switch OK? (johngoodman) 9. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: This switch OK? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 10:20 AM - Re: This switch OK? (user9253) 11. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: This switch OK? (Ken) 12. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: This switch OK? (jerb) 13. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: This switch OK? (jerb) 14. 06:56 PM - Re: This switch OK? (johngoodman) 15. 08:39 PM - Re: This switch OK? (user9253) 16. 09:41 PM - Re: Re: This switch OK? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:18 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? From: "tomcostanza" > Remember... > > Switches manufactured in the UK will not work in any north American aircraft > (certified or amateur built) as the current flow requirement is OPPOSITE to > what we consider normal. This is why many switch configurations in the UK > call for switch orientation to be up to be OFF and down to be ON. Is this because of that Coriolis thingy? I thought things only went backwards in the southern hemisphere. Do not archive -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289167#289167 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:57 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe noise From: Sam Hoskins I am getting a lot of strobe noise in my headset and was hoping we could work through this. It is so bad that I cannot fly with the strobes on. Here are the basics: Aircraft: all composite Quickie Q-200 SkyBrite strobes/position lights http://www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm Wing tip lights. Power supply is mounted on the right fuselage wall, right bebeath the rear wing. Radio: ICOM A210 http://icomamerica.com/en/products/avionics/panelmount/a210/default.aspx Antenna: Bob Archer com antenna model SA-006, mounted on left side of fuselage, just aft of the rear wing. http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Aircraft/Antennas/ArcherSportcraft.html The distance between the power supply and the antenna is perhaps four feet. The Skybrite installation instructions call for using "*Strobe Extension Cables (light-duty, 3-conductor, 18 gauge, shielded)" *made from that heavy PVC stuff. I could not route this cable through the confines of my wing, so I used smaller diameter 3 conductor, shielded, 20 gauge, Tefzel wire. Symptom: When the strobes are on, there is an overall kind of a white noise background and the shoowp-swoowp kind of pulsing noise of the strobes. I can't make it go away with the squelch control, even jacked all the way up. On Bob's suggestion, I removed the strobe PS input and supplied the 12V with a battery positioned right next to the PS. It seemed to help a tiny bit, but still no joy. Any more suggestions? Nothing is easy to do on this plane, and everything is hard to get at. I cannot fit a vertical antenna in the tail, since it is already built. Thanks, Sam ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:29 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: This switch OK? 3/4/2010 Hello Bevan, You wrote: 1) "......as the current flow requirement is OPPOSITE to what we consider normal." {Response} Yes, it is those perverse European electrons that cause this problem. You can imagine what a nuisance it is for all those airplanes flying across the Atlantic ocean to have to reposition all of their switches when they go from one electron area to the other. 2) " This is why many switch configurations in the UK call for switch orientation to be up to be OFF and down to be ON." {Response} Some recalcitrant European homebuilders have even been known to install their switches up side down to avoid this problem. Please don't alert the European homebuilder police to this pernicious activity. 3) "Keep yur sticks on the ice." {Response} Strange advice. All of my girl friends and even some of my wives have insisted that I keep my stick in my pants. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." DO NOT ARCHIVE ============================================== Time: 09:47:14 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? Remember... Switches manufactured in the UK will not work in any north American aircraft (certified or amateur built) as the current flow requirement is OPPOSITE to what we consider normal. This is why many switch configurations in the UK call for switch orientation to be up to be OFF and down to be ON. :) Just trying to help. We're all in this together. Keep yur sticks on the ice. Bevan :) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe noise At 06:14 AM 3/4/2010, you wrote: >I am getting a lot of strobe noise in my headset and was hoping we >could work through this. It is so bad that I cannot fly with the >strobes on. Here are the basics: > >Aircraft: all composite Quickie Q-200 > >SkyBrite strobes/position lights >http://www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm >Wing tip lights. Power supply is mounted on the right fuselage >wall, right bebeath the rear wing. > >Radio: ICOM A210 >http://icomamerica.com/en/products/avionics/panelmount/a210/default.aspx > >Antenna: Bob Archer com antenna model SA-006, mounted on left side >of fuselage, just aft of the rear wing. >http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Aircraft/Antennas/ArcherSportcraft.html > >The distance between the power supply and the antenna is perhaps four feet. > >The Skybrite installation instructions call for using "Strobe >Extension Cables (light-duty, 3-conductor, 18 gauge, shielded)" made >from that heavy PVC stuff. I could not route this cable through the >confines of my wing, so I used smaller diameter 3 conductor, >shielded, 20 gauge, Tefzel wire. > >Symptom: When the strobes are on, there is an overall kind of a >white noise background and the shoowp-swoowp kind of pulsing noise >of the strobes. I can't make it go away with the squelch control, >even jacked all the way up. > >On Bob's suggestion, I removed the strobe PS input and supplied the >12V with a battery positioned right next to the PS. It seemed to >help a tiny bit, but still no joy. Do you have an audio system of any kind? Intercom? Does radio volume control knob affect what noise you hear? Do you hear the noise with the antenna disconnected from the back of the radio? Do you hear the noise on a hand-held radio while seated in the cockpit (tune to unused frequency an open the squelch)? Bob . . . >Any more suggestions? Nothing is easy to do on this plane, and >everything is hard to get at. I cannot fit a vertical antenna in >the tail, since it is already built. > >Thanks, > >Sam Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:32 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? From: "johngoodman" I'd like to thank everybody for the interest - I've learned a lot about switches (g). I've moved on from that switch to possibly this one, but I still need to find out the actual amps on the Coil first: Included: 1 x Clear Illuminated Button 1 x Protector Cover 1 x Label Sheet (Water Spray, Wipers, Lights, Nitrous, Fan, etc.) Specifications: Switch Acutation Style: Push Button Circuit Activation: Constant Lighted: Yes (White) Amp Rating: 10A Volt Rating: 30VDC Terminal Type: Blade Material: Plastic Quantity: Sold Individually Mounting Size: 16mm or 5/8" John -------- #40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon. N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289193#289193 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ign_6000_c_288.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? At 08:46 AM 3/4/2010, you wrote: > > >I'd like to thank everybody for the interest - I've learned a lot >about switches (g). >I've moved on from that switch to possibly this one, but I still >need to find out the actual amps on the Coil first: It would sure help if we understood exactly what this switch is supposed to do. Do you need push-on, push-off (alternate action) or simply push-on (momentary but spring loaded to off). Exactly how does the switch under study integrate into your airplane . . . and is there a reason it shouldn't be but one of several switches that accomplish different tasks? Like one of a row of switches that control DC power, landing lights, nav lights, etc. In other words, why this decidedly odd device in a machine that will undoubtedly have several other switches? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:09 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery charging Ira, I agree on all points. It is a shame to waste money. But, as Bob reasoned, one can either do capacity checks or replace batteries before they reach their service life. I choose to replace. Laziness on my part, perhaps. For me, it is the better option. On my VFR Pacer, I run the battery until it dies. On my electrically-dependent IFR RV, I change the batteries every year - although I may switch to 2 year replacements. I also frequently disagree with Bob - not so much on electric issues, but on philosophy. I still respect and consider his opinions. It is also nice to have other experts, such as yourself, comment on this forum. Regards, Stan Sutterfield Do not archive Just changing batteries annually because you don't choose to learn about batteries (Not talking about anyone individually here) is a shame. Money is tight all around and frequent changes ignores the real possibility of infantile failure which is just as likely in the real world as premature failure if the products are made in the far, far east. Sometimes experts disagree. This is Bob's group and I respect that. I appreciate his public service in dealing with the underending series of questions. There are also other opinions formed on reasonably solid foundations of knowledge and experience that may differ however because some experts place different priorities on different aspects of a project. Look for example on the scrap between Nuckolls and Richter a few years ago. I was once an E.E., I spent 8 years in school and grad school, I try to keep up with the literature and I hand built my plane and panel. Ergo, I have opinions and they are not always the same as Bob's. Is is certainly not a dis at Bob when I think there are better places to spend money than changing out batteries that should be fairly fresh. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:30 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? From: "johngoodman" > It would sure help if we understood exactly what > this switch is supposed to do. Do you need > push-on, push-off (alternate action) or simply > push-on (momentary but spring loaded to off). > > Exactly how does the switch under study integrate > into your airplane . . . and is there a reason > it shouldn't be but one of several switches that > accomplish different tasks? Like one of a row > of switches that control DC power, landing lights, > nav lights, etc. > > In other words, why this decidedly odd > device in a machine that will undoubtedly have > several other switches? > > Bob . . . I guess some explanation is in order, sorry about that. I'm looking for a unique switch for Coil Power for my GearedDrives LS1 engine. The panel has a VP200 and no other switches except two battery switches that look just like the VP200 switches (autopilot does have a couple of micros). The reason for a Coil switch is that I need a quick way to kill the engine. There is no key, and the VP takes care of starting. Otherwise I would have to remove power from the battery busses to stop the engine at the end of the flight. This would kill everything at once, unless I did some power isolation first. So, I'm looking for a Latching Pushbutton, preferably lit when on. It needs to be obvious to the passengers that it powers the engine. In reality, I think it only draws about 3 amps, 5 at most. Think of it as the "run" position of your keyed ignition. Hope this helps. John -------- #40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon. N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289217#289217 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? > >I guess some explanation is in order, sorry about that. I'm looking >for a unique switch for Coil Power for my GearedDrives LS1 engine. >The panel has a VP200 and no other switches except two battery >switches that look just like the VP200 switches (autopilot does have >a couple of micros). >The reason for a Coil switch is that I need a quick way to kill the >engine. There is no key, and the VP takes care of starting. >Otherwise I would have to remove power from the battery busses to >stop the engine at the end of the flight. This would kill everything >at once, unless I did some power isolation first. >So, I'm looking for a Latching Pushbutton, preferably lit when on. >It needs to be obvious to the passengers that it powers the engine. >In reality, I think it only draws about 3 amps, 5 at most. Think of >it as the "run" position of your keyed >ignition. What do your other switches look like? Are they all the same kind of switch? Are there other switches that go to control of engine accessories? Fuel pumps? Why not an identical switch that says "IGNITION ON" when up and "OFF" when down? The device you're considering has a much more complex internal mechanism than the plain-vanilla toggle switch. You speak to "removing power from the battery busses to stop the engine". What devices feed from battery busses and how are they controlled to disconnect while the airplane is parked? Is any single feed from the battery bus required for the engine to function . . . does that feed power a device has a backup? You speak to "busses" . . . so I presume you have dual batteries with 1/2 of engine-critical loads powered from each battery . . . how is the change-over from "primary" to "secondary" hardware accomplished? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:00 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? From: "user9253" John, If this switch is going to kill the engine, what will happen if the switch fails while flying? Assuming that you have two ignition systems, there should be one switch for each. Is that what you have planned? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289236#289236 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:37 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? John If like many of us here you looking for more than just a yes or no answer, you might consider that most of us running EFI systems do not cut ignition power to kill the engine. (I'm assuming you have EFI) That leaves fuel in the cylinders and (same as a Lycoming) can be a safety hazard if someone moves the prop on a hot engine. Most EFI computers will kill the fuel before the ignition. The next preferred shutdown method would likely be to kill power to the electric fuel pump(s). That is what I do when I taxi in on my backup EFI system. Anything other than a normal system shutdown can set engine codes on some computers though. I do control power to my secondary ignition coils through a toggle switch but I never shutdown the engine that way. Ken johngoodman wrote: > > > > > I guess some explanation is in order, sorry about that. I'm looking > for a unique switch for Coil Power for my GearedDrives LS1 engine. > The panel has a VP200 and no other switches except two battery > switches that look just like the VP200 switches (autopilot does have > a couple of micros). The reason for a Coil switch is that I need a > quick way to kill the engine. There is no key, and the VP takes care > of starting. Otherwise I would have to remove power from the battery > busses to stop the engine at the end of the flight. This would kill > everything at once, unless I did some power isolation first. So, I'm > looking for a Latching Pushbutton, preferably lit when on. It needs > to be obvious to the passengers that it powers the engine. In > reality, I think it only draws about 3 amps, 5 at most. Think of it > as the "run" position of your keyed ignition. Hope this helps. John > > -------- #40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel > delivery soon. N711JG reserved > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:21 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? Whoa there Joe, Wow! Can't believe your saying using use AC rated switches for DC applications at near the full AC current rating is OK. No way. AC switches take advantage of the AC zero crossing for reducing contact arcing and welding. (The reason DC switches amp for amp typically cost more than AC switches, there made different to reduce and eliminate contact arcing and welding.) And suddenly you say using the switch the gentlemen asked about is OK and justify your recommendation upon the spec's of a totally different switch. Use the right type of switch for your application. Maybe you can convince the folks that select the switches used for DC powered landing gear applications to use AC designated switches. Just don't think you'll quite sell them on your method. jerb At 06:21 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: > >Looking at the picture of this switch (made in UK), the first thing >that came to mind is that it was going to be used for a starter >switch. It turns out that John intends to use it for a more >critical application where a high quality switch should be used. So >I take back what I said about the switch being ok to use. > As a general rule, a 125VAC rated switch can handle the same > current at 14VDC, even if the manufacturer does not publish the DC > rating. Every AC switch has a DC ampacity. That ampacity might > not have been determined by testing and thus is unknown. > Jerry B. said, > > "the DC current capacity will normally be only a fraction of it's > AC current rating." > That is true if the voltage remains the same: 250V in this > case. But, generally speaking, a 125VAC rated switch can carry as > much DC current at 14V as it can carry AC current at 125V. An > example of this can be seen by reading the data sheet for another > switch. http://www.nkkswitches.com/pdf/stoggleslowcap.pdf >Notice that 125VAC rating is identical to the 30VDC rating. At >14VDC, this switch can handle even more. Also notice that this >switch can handle 2 1/2 times the current at 30VDC than it can at >250VAC. Most good quality snap action AC switches are suitable for >use in homebuilt aircraft as long as the 14VDC current does not >exceed the 125VAC rating of the switch. >Comments are welcome. >Joe > >-------- >Joe Gores ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:59 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? At 03:27 AM 3/4/2010, you wrote: > > > > > Remember... > > > > Switches manufactured in the UK will not work in any north > American aircraft > > (certified or amateur built) as the current flow requirement is > OPPOSITE to > > what we consider normal. This is why many switch configurations in the UK > > call for switch orientation to be up to be OFF and down to be ON. > >Is this because of that Coriolis thingy? I thought things only went >backwards in the southern hemisphere. They do go backwards which is why some toilets (aka water closets) designed to work in one hemisphere will not work or not nearly as well if put into service in the opposite hemisphere for which they were designed to operate which leads me to conclude this thread is headed for the crapper. :-) jerb >Do not archive > >-------- >Clear Skies, >Tom Costanza > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289167#289167 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:45 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? From: "johngoodman" Sorry that I've got everybody wondering; I'll try to explain. The GearedDrives LS1 Corvette engine is just like a car. In a traditional car, the key has several positions, the last rotation is "start", and it is spring loaded to come out of start to "run." The "run" position is Coil power. It is not actual Coil power which is a lot of juice, just a relay out "under the hood." When you turn off a car, you don't starve it of fuel like airplanes normally do, you kill the coil power. As far as my switches, The VP200 does everything with soft switches and it's switch panel. The Master Battery and Aux Battery switches are positioned next to the switch panel and are the same brand of switches. The two fuel pumps and the Engine Crosstie will be on three guarded switches on the console, under the panel, that will be normally on. See Z-19 but add a crosstie between the two batteries, put the engine battery bus on the "on" side, but leave the Keep Alive power for the ECU on the engine battery hot side. There shouldn't be fuel in the cylinders because the ECU won't inject any and the fuel rail regulator is closed. The prop is not connected to the engine because the clutch has released around 700 rpm. You can spin the prop all you want. Fuel is still pumping but isn't getting past the Filter/Regulator which returns all the fuel to the tanks. Fuel can be stopped by turning off the batteries or opening the guarded pump switches. I'm sure a lot of you think this is wrong, but I'm really not asking. I'm only trying to find a good Kill Switch that is so obvious that even a Cave Man Can Do It. I'm still amazed that a guy steered a stuck pedal Toyota for 6 miles without ever thinking about the shift stick or the key.... John -------- #40572 QB. Engine on, wing attach coming soon. Panel delivery soon. N711JG reserved Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289283#289283 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:57 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? From: "user9253" > Wow! Can't believe your saying using use AC rated switches for DC applications at near the full AC current rating is OK. No way. JERB, I am not the only one who thinks that it is OK to use AC rated switches in airplanes. Read the last paragraph on Page 2 and page 3 of this document written by a well respected electrical guru, http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Switch_Ratings.pdf Here is a quote from that article:" > In a nutshell, 125 VAC ratings equate favorably and conservatively to 14 VDC ratings - as long as the switch has a healthy "snap" action . . .The switches we stock sell for $5.00 in a single-pole device and carry no markings for DC ratings. They are rated at 7 amps or better at 115 AC and will work just fine in virtually every slot on an airplane panel." -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289291#289291 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: This switch OK? At 10:36 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: > > > > Wow! Can't believe your saying using use AC rated switches for DC > applications at near the full AC current rating is OK. No way. All switches have ac and dc capabilities at some level. Just because the ratings on the printed on the side of the switch are given at 120 or 240 VAC simply speaks to the largest market into which they are sold. It doesn't mean that they don't have useful and quite rational application in DC systems. The comparative ratings charts for switches in any well written switch catalog will confirm this assertion. The voltage rating of a switch is driven mostly by it's ability to break a circuit . . . spread the contacts fast enough so that the fire goes out before damage is done. The intensity of that fire is proportional to the current in the circuit at the time the contacts open. So a switch with contacts that don't overheat at 7A will CARRY that much current at any voltage but the current may have to be de-rated at the higher DC voltages . . . because it's harder to put the BREAK the circuit without generating a lot of heat. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.