Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:27 AM - Re: audio panel and com wiring (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
2. 04:14 AM - Re: Strobe noise (Sam Hoskins)
3. 07:02 AM - Re: audio panel and com wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:35 AM - Re: Daniels positioner question (Dan Brown)
5. 07:43 AM - Re: Figure Z? (Kenneth Johnson)
6. 08:06 AM - Re: Strobe noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:22 AM - Re: Strobe noise (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
8. 09:40 AM - Re: Figure Z? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:24 AM - Re: Strobe noise (Sam Hoskins)
10. 03:16 PM - Re: Wide angle LED indicators (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?=)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: audio panel and com wiring |
Not obvious here. Turns out I have the same situation.
I'm not sure this concerns me. But will have to think about it. Seems
easily fixed at this point.
Thanks.
Bill Watson
RV10 with a Z-14
Dan Ballin wrote:
>
> This may be obvious to most, but I found a flaw in my wiring schema
> that I figured I'd share. This is somewhat specific, but I am sure
> many are in a similar situation. I have a Lancair Legacy with a PMA
> 7000 audio panel and SL30 as com 1 and an SL40 as com 2. I wired the
> panel using Z-14 (2 separate battery/alternator busses). The issue is
> that I wired com 1 and the audio panel on the same buss, so if I loose
> power on that buss, I have lost the ability to use a com. Since the
> default for the PMA when it is off is com1, com 2 is not available.
> The solution is to make sure com 1 and the audio panel are on
> different busses. Of course all I have to do is hit the crossfeed and
> things are good again, but in a busy stressful situation I'd rather
> have the default a working com.
>
> Dan Ballin
> LEG2 #286
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise |
Bob, I did a few tests in response to to your questions and here is the
info.
I do not have a separate intercom, it is built into the ICOM A210
I forgot to adjust the volume knob, but. I'm pretty sure the noise is
proportionate to the volume setting.
When I disconnected the antenna at the back of the radio, all noise ceased.
Installed a Radio Shack filter, inline with the power supply. - No change in
the noise.
I disconnected the strobe power supply's 12V input, as well as the filter,
and hooked up a 12V battery I had handy and located it right next to the
PS. This eliminated all of the ship's 12V supply wiring. The noise seemed
to remain the same.
I got a hand held radio (ICOM?) and listened to it with the strobes on and
re-connected to ship's power, through the RS filter. The hand held's
squelch easily over rode the stobe noise and all seemed well.
This seems like the A210 doesn't have enough squelch control.
Any thoughts?
Sam
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:14 AM 3/4/2010, you wrote:
>
> I am getting a lot of strobe noise in my headset and was hoping we could
> work through this. It is so bad that I cannot fly with the strobes on. Here
> are the basics:
>
> Aircraft: all composite Quickie Q-200<http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com/>
>
> SkyBrite strobes/position lights http://www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm
> Wing tip lights. Power supply is mounted on the right fuselage wall, right
> bebeath the rear wing.
>
> Radio: ICOM A210
> http://icomamerica.com/en/products/avionics/panelmount/a210/default.aspx
>
> Antenna: Bob Archer com antenna model SA-006, mounted on left side of
> fuselage, just aft of the rear wing.
> http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Aircraft/Antennas/ArcherSportcraft.html
>
> The distance between the power supply and the antenna is perhaps four feet.
>
> The Skybrite installation instructions call for using "*Strobe Extension
> Cables (light-duty, 3-conductor, 18 gauge, shielded)" *made from that
> heavy PVC stuff. I could not route this cable through the confines of my
> wing, so I used smaller diameter 3 conductor, shielded, 20 gauge, Tefzel
> wire.
>
> Symptom: When the strobes are on, there is an overall kind of a white noise
> background and the shoowp-swoowp kind of pulsing noise of the strobes. I
> can't make it go away with the squelch control, even jacked all the way up.
>
> On Bob's suggestion, I removed the strobe PS input and supplied the 12V
> with a battery positioned right next to the PS. It seemed to help a tiny
> bit, but still no joy.
>
>
> Do you have an audio system of any kind? Intercom?
> Does radio volume control knob affect what noise
> you hear? Do you hear the noise with the antenna
> disconnected from the back of the radio? Do you
> hear the noise on a hand-held radio while seated
> in the cockpit (tune to unused frequency an open
> the squelch)?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> Any more suggestions? Nothing is easy to do on this plane, and everything
> is hard to get at. I cannot fit a vertical antenna in the tail, since it is
> already built.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sam
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: audio panel and com wiring |
At 05:21 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote:
><MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>
>Not obvious here. Turns out I have the same situation.
>
>I'm not sure this concerns me. But will have to think about
>it. Seems easily fixed at this point.
This goes to the final stages of a well crafted
Failure Modes Effects Analysis . . . verification.
And the best time to do verification is sitting
in the shop, not cruising at 9K.
For folks who have intercom/audio systems, be
sure that the power-off situation for your
intercom defaults to a hard-connected feed through
of mic and headset audio to at least one comm
radio. Also, if your intercom doesn't have
it's own power switch, you might want to add one
so that a mis-behaving system can be shut off.
If the audio system doesn't have a power-down
feed-through system (like our 9009 audio isolation
amplifier) then hard-wired mic and headset jacks
as illustrated in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700L.pdf
are called for. Of course, your personal plan-B
could simply revert to a flight-bag hand-held.
What ever your plan-b, its a really good idea to
make sure "the plan" works before you need it.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Daniels positioner question |
Quoting "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>:
> speaks to the K13-1, K41 and K42 positioners in the 20 and
> 22AWG d-sub world. But a search of the document says
> nothing about the K187.
Thanks for the help and the resource. The K187 sold, but for
considerably less than the K42. In any event, it's taken care of.
Thanks again.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
-- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
Message 5
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Thanks Bob for taking the time to respond.- In reviewing the Z-19 wiring
diagram, I was wondering about the need for the extra battery?- I underst
and the need to be able to fly the plane without fuel being the limiting fa
ctor.- As far as load analysis, I do not have the flight instruments yet
to determine my needs.-- I do not have dual ignition, so a second batte
ry as backup for that purpose would not be needed.- Thinking from another
perspective,-as my goal is to fly into remote areas, a second battery fo
r utility use would be beneficial.- I know AirVenture, Oshkosh is still 4
months away, but if anyone will be there with their plane, let me know.-
Viewing correct-wiring practices would be beneficial-to help me.- Th
anks-to all who wrote to help me.- Ken-Johnson-=0A=0A=0A=0A________
________________________=0AFrom: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@ae
roelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat, March 6,
2010 3:03:36 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z?=0A=0A--> AeroE
lectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aer
oelectric.com>=0A=0A=0A>- What Z wiring diagram fits this engine?=0A=0A
- - Z-19 is a best fit for electrically dependent engines=0A- - wit
h only one alternator.=0A> =0A> The chapter on batteries suggests an Odysse
y PC680 battery.- In doing research on this battery, it seems to be indic
ated for a motorcycle engine.- Would it provide enough cranking power?=0A
=0A- - The 680 is PLENTY . . . but you may want to consider=0A- - t
wo batteries for alternator-out operations. One for=0A- - the engine, o
ne for everything else.=0A=0A- - Do you have a load analysis? I.e. a li
sting of all=0A- - electrical accessories and what their current demand
s=0A- - are for normal operations?=0A> =0A> In reading, many times it s
uggested that grounding the engine should be done through the engine pan.
- Is there a reason why the engine pan is used VS gounding directly to th
e engine block?=0A=0A- - Don't know why anyone would do that. The most
substantial=0A- - bolt to the block that is not TORQUE sensitive is the
=0A- - best place to get a robust electrical connection to=0A- - th
e engine.=0A=0A> The Zenith 801 is a bush plane.- My goal in finishing th
e plane is to keep it as light as possible.- Over the last several months
I have "listened" in on the discussion of fuses vs breakers and whether a
transponder is needed.=0A=0A- - Breakers vs. fuses are a rather small w
eight trade off.=0A- - Especially if your failure mode effects analysis
suggests=0A- - that two batteries are called for. Transponders are onl
y=0A- - useful if somebody on the ground (1) can even see you=0A- -
on radar and (2) give a rat's you know what where you=0A- - are.=0A=0A
> Basically, I believe what a person really needs is a list of parts needed
to wire a panel and where they can be purchased.- There were good sugges
tions on fuse blocks and cup holders, but many things are missing.- I gue
ss it first begins with which Z diagram I need to use and then, I can go fr
om there.=0A=0A- - First you need to quantify the total energy budget
=0A- - for (1) normal operations and then (2) an austere budget=0A-
- for alternator out operations. Finally, decide what your=0A- - pers
onal design goals are for alternator out endurance.=0A- - If you've got
big fuel tanks then perhaps your batteries=0A- - need to be commensura
tely big too.=0A=0A> I have studied Spanish for thirty years, and can do we
ll.- However, if we had a discussion on auto parts in Spanish, I would be
lost.- In reading your discussions on many issues, I feel like the kid w
ho can tell you, "Where is the bathroom" in spanish, but is lost when asked
to say more.- As a read more and more, I catch a little more.- However
, there is a large void to fill.=0A=0A- - That's what we're here for. L
et's discover whether=0A- - a D8 Cat is needed . . . or you can shovel
enough electrons=0A- - around with a garden tractor. Also, how many yar
ds=0A- - of dirt do you need to move? This energy management=0A- -
thing is a function of TIME, LOADS and under what=0A- - conditions thos
e loads must be functioning for you=0A- - go get on the ground comforta
bly with a dead alternator.=0A=0A- - If you're flying day-vfr kinds of
missions perhaps=0A- - your energy requirements are modest . . . won't
know=0A- - until you list them and add 'em all up.=0A=0A- - Finding
all the bits and pieces to wire it up is=0A- - the stone simple part.
====0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise |
At 06:11 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote:
Bob, I did a few tests in response to to your questions and here is the info.
I do not have a separate intercom, it is built into the ICOM A210
I forgot to adjust the volume knob, but. I'm pretty sure the noise
is proportionate to the volume setting.
When I disconnected the antenna at the back of the radio, all noise ceased.
Okay
Installed a Radio Shack filter, inline with the power supply. - No
change in the noise.
I disconnected the strobe power supply's 12V input, as well as the
filter, and hooked up a 12V battery I had handy and located it right
next to the PS. This eliminated all of the ship's 12V supply
wiring. The noise seemed to remain the same.
Okay, the noise RADIATED not conducted.
I got a hand held radio (ICOM?) and listened to it with the strobes
on and re-connected to ship's power, through the RS filter. The hand
held's squelch easily over rode the stobe noise and all seemed well.
This seems like the A210 doesn't have enough squelch control.
A squelch control allows the operator to set a threshold
at which an incoming signal will open the receiver's audio
circuits so that the signal of interest can be heard. When
the signal goes away, it closes the audio system to mute
what ever combination of noises are present while no signal
of interest is present.
Squelch controls have no noise mitigation or filtering
effects, they only shut off the audio so that you don't
hear what ever noise is present.
Some radios do not differentiate well between signals of
interest and some forms of noise. Digital signal processing
in radios like Garmin and King know the difference between
strobes, lightning, ignition and the guy talking on the
microphone.
Your particular problem may be based on proximity. Where
is your comm antenna with respect to the strobe supply.
Can they be separated more? Unfortunately, it seems that
your strobe system is probably incapable of passing a
DO-160 radiated emissions test. If this is true, then
there may be NO solution to your problem other than getting
more distance between the antagonist and your comm antenna.
Even then, the best you can hope for is to drop the noise
to a level that allows the ICOM squelch control to overpower
it. It will ALWAYS be there to some degree. When the noise
is strong, it has the effect of de-sensitizing your receiver.
You won't hear signals that are not strong enough to overpower
the effects of the noise. This is true even when your squelch
control is capable of "shutting it off".
What strobe system are you using again?
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise |
I had a strobe noise problem with my Vertex handheld. Like you are finding
there is not enough squelch. I called Vertex and they told me that their
radio is set up for a ducky antenna and because I connected a AAE antenna
it is just plain becoming too sensative. Sounds like a poor excuse, but
did find that Vertex was to not goingbe of any assistance.I am
using Kunzleman strobes. Bob was kind enough to send over a few noise
filters with no better results. He even offered to help Kuntzleman pass
DO-160 radiated emissions test, Kunzleman had no interest in talking to
him. Kunzleman had a few suggestions with littleresults. Forme
it made little change if I had radio use ships power or not. It made a
difference getting the strobe power supply out of fuseand onto
wingtips.One thing that was terrible was using shieldedwire
for power. i tried it and it in fact brought more RF into fuse from power
supplies, twisted pair works much better. I detail what torroids worked
for me, read careful what grounding technique worked better. i also found
that if i had AAE antenne touching fuse, i picked up a little more noise
than if i had antenna mounted slightly off fuse. i have a Becker Comm and
didn't have anywhere near the noise compared to Verttex, but after fooling
noise is almost gone.
see:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=31409
Click on pics to get full details. I ordered torroids from
www.mcmaster.com
Ron Parigoris
Message 8
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At 09:40 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob for taking the time to respond. In reviewing the Z-19
>wiring diagram, I was wondering about the need for the extra battery?
That's entirely up to you. The original design goal
spoke to having a battery that could support the needs
of an electrically dependent engine (in this case I think
it was a Subaru or maybe a Mazda . . . I forget) and
second battery to support everything else.
>I understand the need to be able to fly the plane without fuel being
>the limiting factor.
That's a "need" only if you define it as such.
It's your project. My suggestions and recommendations
go to the idea of continuous improvement upon the best
we know how to do. Just because some improvement exists
does not mean you need to embrace it. If a 30 minute or
one hour alternator-out endurance capability meets your mission
requirements, so be it.
> As far as load analysis, I do not have the flight instruments yet
> to determine my needs. I do not have dual ignition, so a second
> battery as backup for that purpose would not be needed.
So perhaps you've answered your own question . . .
> Thinking from another perspective, as my goal is to fly into
> remote areas, a second battery for utility use would be
> beneficial. I know AirVenture, Oshkosh is still 4 months away, but
> if anyone will be there with their plane, let me know.
Oh shucks, you asked another question . . . don't
feel too beat up over this exercise. Very few of
our fellow builders are even aware of a value
for doing the exercise. What EVER you decide to do
after your study will make you a more competent operator
of the airplane because you UNDERSTAND more about
how it works than to 90% of the GA pilots flying
today.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise |
SkyBrite strobes/position lights http://www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm
Wing tip lights. Power supply is mounted on the right fuselage wall, right
beneath the rear wing. They are about 4 feet apart. Not sure where else i
could park it.
Radio: ICOM A210
http://icomamerica.com/en/products/avionics/panelmount/a210/default.aspx
Antenna: Bob Archer com antenna model SA-006, mounted on left side of
fuselage, just aft of the rear wing.
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Aircraft/Antennas/ArcherSportcraft.html
Sam
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
> At 06:11 AM 3/9/2010, you wrote:
> Bob, I did a few tests in response to to your questions and here is the
> info.
>
> I do not have a separate intercom, it is built into the ICOM A210
>
> I forgot to adjust the volume knob, but. I'm pretty sure the noise is
> proportionate to the volume setting.
>
> When I disconnected the antenna at the back of the radio, all noise ceased.
>
> Okay
>
>
> Installed a Radio Shack filter, inline with the power supply. - No change
> in the noise.
>
> I disconnected the strobe power supply's 12V input, as well as the filter,
> and hooked up a 12V battery I had handy and located it right next to the
> PS. This eliminated all of the ship's 12V supply wiring. The noise seemed
> to remain the same.
>
> Okay, the noise RADIATED not conducted.
>
>
> I got a hand held radio (ICOM?) and listened to it with the strobes on and
> re-connected to ship's power, through the RS filter. The hand held's
> squelch easily over rode the stobe noise and all seemed well.
>
> This seems like the A210 doesn't have enough squelch control.
>
> A squelch control allows the operator to set a threshold
> at which an incoming signal will open the receiver's audio
> circuits so that the signal of interest can be heard. When
> the signal goes away, it closes the audio system to mute
> what ever combination of noises are present while no signal
> of interest is present.
>
> Squelch controls have no noise mitigation or filtering
> effects, they only shut off the audio so that you don't
> hear what ever noise is present.
>
> Some radios do not differentiate well between signals of
> interest and some forms of noise. Digital signal processing
> in radios like Garmin and King know the difference between
> strobes, lightning, ignition and the guy talking on the
> microphone.
>
> Your particular problem may be based on proximity. Where
> is your comm antenna with respect to the strobe supply.
> Can they be separated more? Unfortunately, it seems that
> your strobe system is probably incapable of passing a
> DO-160 radiated emissions test. If this is true, then
> there may be NO solution to your problem other than getting
> more distance between the antagonist and your comm antenna.
> Even then, the best you can hope for is to drop the noise
> to a level that allows the ICOM squelch control to overpower
> it. It will ALWAYS be there to some degree. When the noise
> is strong, it has the effect of de-sensitizing your receiver.
> You won't hear signals that are not strong enough to overpower
> the effects of the noise. This is true even when your squelch
> control is capable of "shutting it off".
>
> What strobe system are you using again?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Wide angle LED indicators |
Ron,
You might want to check out http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3228.pdf (Marl
leds) - I installed these, 12v., they are very bright and visible from
practically any angle - I'd say around 150, more than enough for a panel.
Only problem, sort of expensive.
Michle
-----Message d'origine-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de
rparigoris
Envoy: dimanche 7 mars 2010 22:06
: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Objet: AeroElectric-List: Wide angle LED indicators
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Because of building model electric planes that we primarily fly at night, we
have collected quite the assortment of LEDs. Whenever we see something
interesting, usual end up getting a few samples to fool with. collection is
from the big 4 > Mouser, Digikey, Allied and Newark as well as Best Hong
Kong, Hosfelt and others.
Now that it's time to install indicators and warning LEDs on Europa XS we
quickly came to realization that unless a warning indicator is in your
direct line of vision, it ain't gonna get your attention too quickly during
when operated in direct sunlight. we are going to use some nice black
bezeled indicators for non-critical indicators. Pepboys and Advace Auto are
going to be suppliers for wide angled warning LEDs! you see we want several
warning LEDs by knees. For three pretty important LEDs, Rotax 914 TCU Red
and Orange and Oil pressure going to use a cluster of 4 LEDs from Advanced.
These are super bright and the cluster of 4 is mounted on a small circuit
board. By drilling a cluster of 4 holes and allowing tips stick out a bit,
the tips glow plenty bright, available in Red, and Yellow at least. The neat
thing is there is no flange on side of LEDs. For other warning LEDs, Pepboys
sell single LEDs that are ultrabright. Same thing, no flange on sides and
long enough to allo!
w tip to stick out of panel, small OD, available in red, Yellow and
probably blue at least. Both Pepboys and Advanced sell a neat wide angle LED
where the face has a counterbore, may be 5/16" or 3/8" OD (I forget) but
very wide angle viewing but only available in Blue, White and Yellow/Orange,
no Red.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Hyper-Bri
ght-Amber-LED-Automotive-Bulb-Pair-Jam-Strait_6120511-P_N3157A_A%7CGRP2044__
__
I got a pack of 3 from Pepboys but these are probably similar (didn't see
these in Advance and Pepboys website is poor at best):
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_HyperLED-
Red-Alpena_6120501-P_N3157A_A%7CGRP2044____
you can get these in Yellow/Orange and Blue, I didn't see in Red:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_194-WHITE
-LED-BULBS-Pilot_6460030-P_N3157A_A%7CGRP2044____
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289549#289549
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