Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:58 AM - Batteries (Jef Vervoort)
2. 03:11 AM - Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. (LINDA WALKER)
3. 05:57 AM - Re: Getting the numbers (Kevin Boddicker)
4. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. (Matt Prather)
5. 08:05 AM - Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery (Speedy11@aol.com)
6. 09:08 AM - Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery ()
7. 11:06 AM - Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery (thomas sargent)
8. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 11:32 AM - Re: Batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 02:12 PM - Flap Motor lack of Oomph (jonlaury)
12. 03:02 PM - Generic Ford Voltage Regulator (jonlaury)
13. 04:01 PM - Re: Flap Motor lack of Oomph (Daniel Hooper)
14. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. (Matt Prather)
15. 05:43 PM - Electronic Circuit Breakers on your EFIS (marcausman)
16. 06:23 PM - Alternative battery solutions (Speedy11@aol.com)
17. 06:41 PM - Re: Flap Motor lack of Oomph (jonlaury)
18. 07:13 PM - Re: Re: Flap Motor lack of Oomph (Daniel Hooper)
19. 07:59 PM - Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. (marcausman)
20. 08:44 PM - Re: Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 08:47 PM - Re: Generic Ford Voltage Regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 09:43 PM - Re: Alternative battery solutions (Kevin Klinefelter)
23. 10:13 PM - Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery (Kevin Klinefelter)
Message 1
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In september 2007, some messages promoted the use of A123 Systems batteries.
They should offer a substantial weight saving.
Anybody heard of recent developments?
Jef, 91031 wiring.
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. |
Bob et al.
I have been able to get my BMA Efis G4 Lite repaired.
The fault may have been caused by a surge in the power supply line.
Is there an accepted method to catch surges in our type of electrical
systems?
Any help much appreciated.
Patrick C Elliott, England.
Long-EZ, G-LGEZ.
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Getting the numbers |
Thanks Bob. I will report back.
Kevin
On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 05:38 PM 3/22/2010, you wrote:
<trumanst@neitel.net>
>
> Thanks for the offer. I have two.
>
> Good for you. Over the course of several seminars
> my opening presentation was on DC power and the value
> of knowing the numbers, I would query the class as
> to how many folks did not possess at least one multi-meter
> of reasonable accuracy (handy little analog
> testers need not apply). Generally there were three
> or four who would raise their hands.
>
> I immediately handed out meters from Harbor Freight.
> The cost was trivial and it helped me emphasize
> very early in the class that having some grasp
> on the "size of things" was pretty important to
> successful implementation of recipes for success.
>
> I will try to get some data on my next airport visit.
> I will record some numbers and get back to you. Is there anything I
should be aware of,or a certain protocol, before proceeding?
>
> Not a critical one . . . it's time consuming
> to sit and watch the setup for the purpose
> of plotting performance. Data points acquired are
> pretty coarse. Just see what the "float" voltage
> is after a couple of days. Then turn something on
> to put drag a couple a.h. of energy out of the
> battery. Hook the 1562 up and see if you can
> catch a top-off voltage along with some sense
> of time that it stays in the top-off mode.
>
> Speaking of data acquisition systems. There are
> dozens of new players in the data logging business.
>
> <2769199.jpg>
>
> This USB interface voltage logger can be reviewed
> at:
>
> http://www.microdaq.com/lascar/usb/el-usb-3.php
>
> It has 0-30 volt input range, sample rates from
> 1 sec to 12 hours and a 1% overall accuracy.
> I suspect it's resolution is much better than
> 1% and may be as great at 0.1% of full scale
> (10 bits) so for more exacting work, one might
> be able to characterize a given instrument for
> better performance in analysis of the data.
>
> At $75 its a pretty good value. Folks with a
> curiosity about such things are encouraged
> to investigate this market for themselves.
> I've got several good tools for doing this task
> but none that are so handy as this . . . I'll
> probably decide that I just have to get one
> pretty soon.
>
> By the way, if any of you own one of those
> West Mountain Radio battery analyzers
>
> http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA.htm
>
> They can be pressed into service as a
> useful data logger/plotter. This curve
> was gathered with just such a device.
>
>
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf
>
> You set the thing up to "test" a battery
> with say a 10 milliampere "load" and
> set the end-of-test voltage very low. You
> have to fool it into thinking that you're
> testing a real 7 or perhaps 8-cell battery
> to get the upper end of the voltage plot
> where you need it. Then hook it across the
> system being monitored. It will dutifully
> gather voltage data for days if needs be
> and produce nice plots too at no extra charge.
>
> Of course, this ties up a PC for the
> duration of the test. I keep a number of
> junker 'putes around for just this kind
> of task.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. |
I believe "surge" means having the input voltage(s) above the designed for
limits for some amount of time. From this, it would be important to know
the device's design limits. Then you could figure out the best strategy
for protecting the device.
That said, keep in mind there will be voltage excursions on all vehicles.
Designers of devices for use on normal aircraft should have this in mind.
The only kind of over-voltage event that you as a system designer should
have to worry about is that of a runaway alternator - regulator full-on.
If your airplane has an internally regulated alternator, it's a good idea
to have a disconnect relay, and an even better idea to use an over-voltage
detecting circuit to open the relay should the alternator misbehave badly.
Everything else should be take care of by the equipment maker.
If you have a piece of equipment that is not built to operate on a normal
aircraft environment and you choose to use it anyway, there are a variety
of strategies one could use to provide protection for that device.
However, it may be difficult to know what needs to be protected, and how,
unless you know details of how the equipment was designed. You might
guess that you need something like a TVS (transient voltage suppression)
diode on the power inputs, but that would strictly be a guess.
Does anyone know if Blue Mountain did DO160 style design and testing?
Matt-
>
> Bob et al.
> I have been able to get my BMA Efis G4 Lite repaired.
> The fault may have been caused by a surge in the power supply line.
> Is there an accepted method to catch surges in our type of electrical
> systems?
> Any help much appreciated.
> Patrick C Elliott, England.
> Long-EZ, G-LGEZ.
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery |
Jared,
I'm not certain that the PC680 is hazardous shipping. If not, I can ship
it Fedex for low cost. The price was intended to be a joke. If you want
it, just pay shipping. Where are you located?
If you are getting it just to build a battery box, then consider what I
did. I bought the jacketed battery (you can buy only the jacket, if needed)
which provides you with a steel battery box that the battery fits perfectly
in. I attached a contactor to the side of the box by carefully placing
the round head screws so they fit within the "grooves" in the side of the
battery. Also, I mounted the battery box to the airframe supports by drilling
#10 screw holes in the bottom flange and adding plywood with cutouts for
the screws in the bottom. I put my battery hold downs on the battery box,
but it would just as easy to extend them all the way down to the underlying
support.
You can see my concept at _http://www.rv-8a.net/2005.htm_
(http://www.rv-8a.net/2005.htm) . Scroll down to 17 Dec 05.
Let me know if you want the battery in late June - or if not, someone else
may want it.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
I wasn't thinking that a sealed RG battery qualified as hazardous for
shipping. Do you know why it would?
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 10:52 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com> wrote:
> Jared,
> I bought my Odessey PC680 in Dec 06 and flew the first time in Jun 09.
The
> battery has done fine. I spins my IO-390 with no problem. I don't think
> you will have a problem even if you buy a new one to use for the next 2
> years. I'm going to replace mine with a new one in June and then every
> other year afterward.
> If you can wait until June, I'll send you mine for $14.69 plus hazard
> shipping.
> Stan Sutterfield
> Do not archive
>
>
> I'm still in the building stage, and I plan to use a PC680 battery in my
> project. It seems wasteful for me to buy a new one just for the sake of
> building my electrical system and battery support structure, since it
will
> be a couple of years before I'm ready to fly. By then I would like to
> start
> my flight testing with a new battery, so it makes good sense to make use
of
> a retired one for such construction ground operations. Is there is
anyone
> out there who has proactively removed a PC680 and would like to sell it
to
> me? I know that some people have mentioned that they use them for lawn
> mowers and such, but surely there is someone out there who has one
sitting
> around. If you are that someone, please send me an email with your
> requested price and payment method.
Message 6
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Subject: | Looking for a used PC680 battery |
Bevan,
Actually you don't need that word :) - Just "I'll soon be ready..."
works.
BTW- Bob is right, you don't need a classic "box" for the RG. I bought
one ($35?) so I could apply heat reflective lunar reflective tape to the
outside to keep it cool. I could have made one out of e-Glass quite
easily but my time and aggravation is worth more than the $35.00.
I'll touch base with you in May-June and see if you still want it. I'm
in PA so you can figure what, 15-16 lbs from 19038 to your joint.
Glenn E. Long
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B
Tomm
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Looking for a used PC680 battery
Sorry, I included the word "situation" in the wrong location of my
sentence.
Let me re-state.
I soon be in a situation desiring a used battery (PC680), to accurately
fabricate a battery box and associated cabling. It doesn't have to have
any life left in it.
May or June would be about right. I'll pay shipping if it's not too
much.
Bevan
> _____________________________________________
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> ROGER & JEAN CURTIS
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:26 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Looking for a used PC680 battery
>
>
> I'll be looking for the same used battery situation soon, May or June
> is good.
>
> Bevan
>
> Which used battery situation are you looking for? Do you want
to
> obtain a used battery or bury one in your back yard, like Glenn?
>
>
>
> Do not archive
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery |
I was in the same position. I was able to buy an empty PC-680 battery case
at Batteries Plus for $20. They use them as promotional displays, so they
often have these things laying around for several different products.
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 9:05 AM, <longg@pjm.com> wrote:
>
> Bevan,
>
> Actually you don't need that word :) - Just "I'll soon be ready..."
> works.
>
> BTW- Bob is right, you don't need a classic "box" for the RG. I bought
> one ($35?) so I could apply heat reflective lunar reflective tape to the
> outside to keep it cool. I could have made one out of e-Glass quite
> easily but my time and aggravation is worth more than the $35.00.
>
> I'll touch base with you in May-June and see if you still want it. I'm
> in PA so you can figure what, 15-16 lbs from 19038 to your joint.
>
> Glenn E. Long
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B
> Tomm
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:38 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Looking for a used PC680 battery
>
> Sorry, I included the word "situation" in the wrong location of my
> sentence.
> Let me re-state.
>
> I soon be in a situation desiring a used battery (PC680), to accurately
> fabricate a battery box and associated cabling. It doesn't have to have
> any life left in it.
>
> May or June would be about right. I'll pay shipping if it's not too
> much.
>
> Bevan
>
>
> > _____________________________________________
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > ROGER & JEAN CURTIS
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:26 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Looking for a used PC680 battery
> >
> >
> > I'll be looking for the same used battery situation soon, May or June
> > is good.
> >
> > Bevan
> >
> > Which used battery situation are you looking for? Do you want
> to
> > obtain a used battery or bury one in your back yard, like Glenn?
> >
> >
> >
> > Do not archive
>
>
--
Tom Sargent
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. |
At 05:16 AM 3/24/2010, you wrote:
>
>Bob et al.
>I have been able to get my BMA Efis G4 Lite repaired.
>The fault may have been caused by a surge in the power supply line.
>Is there an accepted method to catch surges in our type of electrical
>systems?
>Any help much appreciated.
>Patrick C Elliott, England.
>Long-EZ, G-LGEZ.
"Our type of electrical system" is no different than
the one on automobiles. Designers of sophisticated
electronics for automobiles and airplanes have been
well aware of the characteristics of these DC power
systems for decades. Design rules for crafting accessories
compatible with such systems have also been well
established for decades.
Failure of any modern accessory (and BMA is certainly
modern) attributed to power "surges, glitches, spikes,
or gremlins" is a stronger suggestion of design deficiency
in that accessory than for the DC power system. See:
http://tinyurl.com/ybhvxal
Bottom line is that any device designed after about
1970 to go into airplanes has been immune to the
NORMAL operating characteristics of DC power systems
by design. If the repair technician makes any
assertion about your device having suffered a "glitch"
is essentially accusing the device manufacture of not
having done their homework.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery |
At 10:01 AM 3/24/2010, you wrote:
>Jared,
>I'm not certain that the PC680 is hazardous shipping. If not, I can
>ship it Fedex for low cost. The price was intended to be a
>joke. If you want it, just pay shipping. Where are you located?
All RG batteries are considered spill proof
and can be shipped by services ordinarily limited
to non-hazardous materials.
Mark the outside of the box "Contains battery
that is spill proof per 49CFR173.159(d)"
Bob . . .
Message 10
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At 04:20 AM 3/24/2010, you wrote:
>In september 2007, some messages promoted the use of A123 Systems
>batteries. They should offer a substantial weight saving.
>
>Anybody heard of recent developments?
The aviation battery manufacturing community is still
wrestling with li-ion battery technology for use as
starting batteries. I'm not aware of any wide-spread
usage. There are a few devices qualified to
the type certificate of some large air transport
category aircraft as standy-by power. I'm not
aware of anything even close to making onto a
single-engine TC aircraft or even jets.
Li-Ion technology energy densities are VERY high and
that "works-better-weighs-less" siren song is
seductive. But it's like trying to teach your engine
how to burn nitro-glycerine. Yeah, the energy is
there but keeping it from ever turning around to
bite you is no trivial task!
For now and the immediate future, SVLA is the king
of affordable and safe performance in batteries
for aircraft.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | Flap Motor lack of Oomph |
On start up, my long dormant flap motor can't overcome the drag of the linear actuator.
The power supply gets pulled down to near zero volts, showing a couple
of amps.
When I pulled the motor free of the actuator, it starts reluctantly for a second
or so and then quickly spins up to full speed and torque. The actuator input
shaft is easily turned by my fingers.
Is this a capacitor problem? I haven't pulled the motor apart yet.
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291588#291588
Message 12
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Subject: | Generic Ford Voltage Regulator |
Is this generic enough?
http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/regulators.html
F540 Regulator FD 1G SERIES
Just giving all you "OH NO! DON'T GET THAT ONE!" people a chance before I "invest"
$8.95. :)
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291589#291589
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Flap Motor lack of Oomph |
Where are you taking the power supply measurement reading "near zero
volts"? ..and by power supply, do you mean the battery,
battery+alternator, bench supply, or something else?
--Daniel
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 4:09 PM, jonlaury <jonlaury@impulse.net> wrote:
>
> On start up, my long dormant flap motor can't overcome the drag of the linear
actuator. The power supply gets pulled down to near zero volts, showing a couple
of amps.
> When I pulled the motor free of the actuator, it starts reluctantly for a second
or so and then quickly spins up to full speed and torque. The actuator input
shaft is easily turned by my fingers.
> Is this a capacitor problem? I haven't pulled the motor apart yet.
>
> John
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291588#291588
>
>
--
Daniel Hooper
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power |
supplies.
Bob,
Thanks for posting the article about DO-160 testing. Just the right
amount of detail for considering what needs to be done to make a piece of
gear work properly in an airplane.
Regards,
Matt-
snip
>
> Failure of any modern accessory (and BMA is certainly
> modern) attributed to power "surges, glitches, spikes,
> or gremlins" is a stronger suggestion of design deficiency
> in that accessory than for the DC power system. See:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ybhvxal
>
snip
> having done their homework.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Electronic Circuit Breakers on your EFIS |
Vertical Power Announces VP-X
The Electronic Circuit Breaker System that integrates with your EFIS.
Vertical Power, along with its EFIS partners, is formally announcing the VP-X at
Sun n Fun next month but we wanted to give you an early preview.
The VP-X uses proven electronic circuit breakers to simplify wiring and provide
advanced electrical system capabilities. Monitor the status of individual devices
and the entire electrical system right from your EFIS. Avionics, lights,
trim, and flaps can all be controlled using standard switches or the EFIS.
The VP-X works with Advanced Flight Systems, Grand Rapids Technologies HX, and
MGL Voyager/Odyssey MKII EFIS products.
For more information please see: http://www.verticalpower.com/VPX.html
--------
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291615#291615
Message 16
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Subject: | Alternative battery solutions |
If you are planning to use the PC680 battery in your aircraft, consider a
less expensive alternative which is made by the same manufacturer to the
same specs and same dimensions. See _http://www.tnrbatteries.com/geg11.html_
(http://www.tnrbatteries.com/geg11.html) and then do an internet search
for the lowest price.
Also, for a battery hold down requiring very little work, take a look at
this one - _http://tnrbatteries.com/pcbibpnhdb68.html_
(http://tnrbatteries.com/pcbibpnhdb68.html)
I have no association with the retailer. Do a search for the lowest
prices.
I bought a Shumacher 1562A battery maintainer today and initial charge
voltage was 13.8 tapering down to 13.0 after about 3 hours.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Flap Motor lack of Oomph |
Daniel,
My bench power supply has analog meters for volts and amps. When I hook it up to
the flap motor/linear actuator, the voltmeter almost pegs 0 volts.
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291631#291631
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Flap Motor lack of Oomph |
John,
It sounds like your bench supply might have a lack of "oomph". Try
connecting it to a battery. Use a fuse in series with it to prevent
smoke, just in case you have a dead short across the motor. Good luck!
Daniel Hooper
On Mar 24, 2010, at 8:40 PM, "jonlaury" <jonlaury@impulse.net> wrote:
> >
>
> Daniel,
> My bench power supply has analog meters for volts and amps. When I
> hook it up to the flap motor/linear actuator, the voltmeter almost
> pegs 0 volts.
>
> John
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291631#291631
>
>
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power supplies. |
The DO-160E category specifications we've designed to state 40 volts for 1 second
and 60 volts for 100ms, 10 to 32 volts normal operating range. This, along
with other design considerations, has proven to be quite reliable.
--------
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=291640#291640
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Electrical surges in aircraft power |
supplies.
At 05:27 PM 3/24/2010, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for posting the article about DO-160 testing. Just the right
>amount of detail for considering what needs to be done to make a piece of
>gear work properly in an airplane.
It's a pretty old process. I have a copy of DO-138 dated sometime
in the 50's which is the predecessor to DO-160. I'm still trying
to find a copy of DO-108 with preceded DO-138. I found a journal
article dated 1964 that referenced DO-108. In any case,
the idea that electro-whizzies bolted to a general aviation
airplane should be qualified to thrive in their expected work
environment is not a new idea.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Generic Ford Voltage Regulator |
At 05:00 PM 3/24/2010, you wrote:
>
>Is this generic enough?
>
>http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/regulators.html
>F540 Regulator FD 1G SERIES
>
>Just giving all you "OH NO! DON'T GET THAT ONE!" people a chance
>before I "invest" $8.95.
Works good, lasts a long time. If you wanted to really
"get down" with the generic thingy, you could build this
one from Radio Shack parts
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/Internal_Regulator_Circa_1980.pdf
But the 'ford' part is a perfectly good regulator.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Alternative battery solutions |
Here is a PC680 mounting I am using.
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Product-Line/Odyssey-Battery-Mounts/?k
eyword=battery+mount&autoview=SKU
----- Original Message -----
From: Speedy11@aol.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:17 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternative battery solutions
If you are planning to use the PC680 battery in your aircraft,
consider a less expensive alternative which is made by the same
manufacturer to the same specs and same dimensions. See
http://www.tnrbatteries.com/geg11.html and then do an internet search
for the lowest price.
Also, for a battery hold down requiring very little work, take a look
at this one - http://tnrbatteries.com/pcbibpnhdb68.html
I have no association with the retailer. Do a search for the lowest
prices.
I bought a Shumacher 1562A battery maintainer today and initial charge
voltage was 13.8 tapering down to 13.0 after about 3 hours.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Looking for a used PC680 battery |
I'm in Bishop (KBIH)
If Jared does not get back to me you can have it.What airport do you
use?
Kevin
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