Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:05 AM - Re: Downed EAA Plane (Jay Hyde)
2. 06:41 AM - Re: Schumacher SC-600A (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:50 AM - Re: ANL current limiter mount (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:00 AM - Re: Downed EAA Plane ()
5. 07:11 AM - Re: ANL current limiter mount ()
6. 07:25 AM - Re: Downed EAA Plane (Jon Finley)
7. 07:33 AM - Busy! (Bill Bradburry)
8. 07:54 AM - Re: Downed EAA Plane ()
9. 10:24 AM - Re: Downed EAA Plane (rampil)
10. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: Downed EAA Plane ()
11. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Downed EAA Plane (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
12. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: Downed EAA Plane (S. Ramirez)
13. 01:23 PM - Re: Downed EAA Plane (Charlie England)
14. 02:16 PM - Re: Downed EAA Plane (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: Downed EAA Plane (Robert Sultzbach)
16. 05:37 PM - Re: Downed EAA Plane (paul wilson)
17. 06:14 PM - Re: testing for inoperative wig wag? ()
18. 06:47 PM - JFK Jr and all (Richard Girard)
19. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Downed EAA Plane (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
20. 06:58 PM - Re: JFK Jr and all (RGent1224@aol.com)
21. 08:17 PM - Re: JFK Jr and all (Robert Sultzbach)
22. 09:52 PM - Re: JFK Jr and all (Terry Watson)
Message 1
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Subject: | Downed EAA Plane |
An interesting thing about jamb-nuts; if we are thinking of the same thing
here. We call them 'half-nuts'; usually people place the full sized nut
under the half or jamb nut- I used to as well. However, the correct way is
to put the thin nut first - see
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/twonuts.htm
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 13 March 2010 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Jon followed up later with:
Hi all,
I have confirmed the cause of my power failure last weekend. Long story
short - it was builder error. When you install a locknut on a bolt, you
MUST ensure that there is at least a thread or two coming all the way
thru the nut. If not, it will eventually vibrate free.
<snip>
I have changed my mounting method and now have nutplates inside this "box".
Please; learn from other's mistakes cause you don't have enough time to
make them all yourself!!
I would like to follow up with the idea that
on a TC aircraft, there are NO plain nuts or
combinations of plain nuts and lockwashers used.
Non-locking, threaded fasteners are often supplied
on accessories from the outside world . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Kilovac_EV200_contactor.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Mold-Captured_T
erminals.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Flap_Switch.jpg
Every time the system integrator picks up such
devices, there's supposed to be an evaluation of
risk due to "loose hardware". If the risks are
deemed great enough, non-locking fasteners will
be replaced with locking devices -or- doped with
Loc-tite on final assembly.
The tree-visible-threads rule has much more to do
with strength of the assembled fastener (indicates
that the screw is long enough) than with anti-
loosening. The same rule applies to all threaded
fasteners including the locking style nuts and
nutplates.
Where locking threads are not possible or practical,
consider still longer screws with a jamb-nut installed
on top of the structural nut. Further, a thread locker
that can be easily disassembled can go a long way
toward insuring joint integrity. Super-glue works
nice. It's thin and wicks into an already assembled
set of threads.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Schumacher SC-600A |
At 08:40 AM 3/29/2010, you wrote:
<mrspudandcompany@verizon.net>
Bob,
I have a Schumacher SC-600A. It is a switchable 6/12 volt automatic charger/
maintainer with 3 selectable charging rates of 2, 4, or 6 amp output, with
a microprocessor control. They recommend using the 2 amp for trickle charge
or charging small batteries such as lawn tractor or motorcycle. The 4 amp
is for medium charge of automotive batteries, and the 6 amp for fast charge
of automotive / light truck batteries.
Yeah, I've got one of those too . . . or maybe it's the 2500. Got
it at Walmart . . .
In your years of experience with charge rates of batteries, do you think the
higher rate of 6 amps would even damage a small garden tractor battery?
When I look at automotive alternators with 50 amp outputs I wonder what are
the limits that will cause damage or shortening of useful life of a battery,
provided you don't overcharge?
Very astute observations! There's a common faulty assumption
that if one connects a monster charger to a 2 a.h. battery that
the beastly machine will smoke the little battery. The ratings
on any charging system come with two values. Set point voltages
and maximum available recharge current. Batteries come with
two values, state of charge and internal resistance. The battery's
ability to accept recharge energy is what sets how much and how
fast it will accept energy from the charging source.
As a rule, smaller, completely discharged batteries placed across
a rigid bus will initially draw large values of current but it quickly
falls to values that are commensurate with the battery's physics
and relatively independent of charging system's characteristics.
Let's recall that battery performance is a function of chemistry
mass which set capacity and surface area of exposed chemistry
which sets internal impedance. The greatest performing batteries
(Enersys and competing products) have lots of thin plates that
are a finely tuned compromise for optimum mass/area ratio. These
batteries are also exemplary in their ability to accept charge.
In fact, the Genesis series batteries I helped STC onto TC aircraft
with B&C have no published limits for rate of recharge.
At the other end of spectrum, smaller batteries with fewer,
thicker plates may appear to be accepting a charge when their
recharge current drops off rapidly while in fact, chemistry
on the surface of the plates is what has become recharged and
chemistry deeper in the chemical cell-mass (isolated by internal
impedance features) are coming along more slowly. If you leave
the itty-bitty battery connected to the monster bus long
enough, it will eventually get recharged.
Damage? During the initial stages of a rushed recharge,
energy is being dissipated internally to the battery in its
relatively poor connection between and internal to individual
chemical cell sites. This warms the battery up and is not
good for battery longevity. Hence, the poorer the construction,
the more care in recharging is necessary for maximum service
life. As a rule, tiny 'back up' batteries in airplanes
are not well construction (i.e. like an Enersys). These
batteries do benefit from careful maintenance and generally
don't have good service lives. This is why ALL of my suggested
two-battery systems feature identical batteries with engine
cranking abilities. They require a minimum of maintenance
and smoothly integrate into a "new battery every year"
rotation protocol.
Most of this discussion about battery chargers is
academic for the manner in which we use batteries. In
the auto/aeromotive worlds we depend on batteries to
start engines. After that, the well design charging
system replaces a few percent of expended battery energy
and supports all vehicle loads for the remainder of
the operating cycle. We don't routinely deeply discharge
our batteries.
It's only the deeply discharged battery that will
benefit from recharge protocols finely tuned to
it's physics. The smaller/cheaper the battery, the more
it benefits from fine tuning. So unless your airplane's
alternator runs too slow to support ship's loads while taxiing
miles to the hangar with all the electro-whizzies
turned on, then there's little or no benefit for
connecting any kind of charger until the next flight.
Even the smallest chargers (.8A Battery Tender) will
recharge the largest of our batteries if given
sufficient time. Further the time they spend in
top-off mode isn't real critical either . . . it
just doesn't want to be sustained over many weeks
or months while an airplane is being stored or waiting
for flying weather to improve.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: ANL current limiter mount |
At 08:31 PM 3/29/2010, you wrote:
>Has anyone come up with a mount for ANL current limiters that don't
>look like they belong on a tractor? The standard ones in use are
>either bulky, ugly and unprotected or the ones the boom box crowd
>uses are made of plastic, and don't belong forward of an aircraft
>firewall, in my opinion. I have two alternators that I need to
>protect and could gang the ANLs together, or maybe it's best to use
>inline protection as close to alternator as possible. What has
>anyone come up with?
>Chris Hukill
Consider building your own current limiter mounting
blocks from phenolic, delrin, etc. Use more compact
automotive limiters like
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuses/ABI_fuses.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuses/BF2.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuses/all_mega.JPG
Use 1/4-28 steel hardware to assemble. Yeah
I know, it's not brass. But we're more interested
in getting a ring terminal on a wire held in
intimate contact with the tab of a current limiter.
Use steel and torque it to spec.
Counter-bore the back side of the block an pot
the hex-head of the bolt into the block with
J-B weld. Put a washer against the block on the
other side and a nut on top that torqued to
spec. Then goes another washer, the limiter,
the ring terminal, a third washer, and a LOCK nut.
Works good, lasts a long time.
I've got the delrin already cut to manufacture a
few dozens of these smaller holders but those
projects are on the back burner for awhile. Today
I've got my laundry room wall opened up to repair
and modify some plumbing to accommodate a gas dryer
and a new water softener installation.
I'm up to my shins in sheet rock debris right
now. After that, I've got some cabinets to build.
The list goes on . . .
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Downed EAA Plane |
Regardless of your ego, it's always good to read 43.13 part 1 & 2 when
building an airplane. It's written at a 9th grade level so little things
like that should not get by. They make a big deal on exposed threads for
studs, bolts etc. How many of you know the formula for how deep a stud
needs to be screwed in? It's so simple, if you can't see 2 threads, get
a longer bolt.
In areas where I can't frequently inspect potential loose nuts, I always
use Loctite and if I'm feeling particularly nervous I give the thread
and nut a thin coat of epoxy. There's lots of other neat stuff in the
43.13 like max number of washers, 3 and never use a jam nut more than
once - toss it.
It's your ass in the plane, so do it right.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay
Hyde
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane
<jay@horriblehyde.com>
An interesting thing about jamb-nuts; if we are thinking of the same
thing
here. We call them 'half-nuts'; usually people place the full sized nut
under the half or jamb nut- I used to as well. However, the correct way
is
to put the thin nut first - see
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/twonuts.htm
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 13 March 2010 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Jon followed up later with:
Hi all,
I have confirmed the cause of my power failure last weekend. Long story
short - it was builder error. When you install a locknut on a bolt, you
MUST ensure that there is at least a thread or two coming all the way
thru the nut. If not, it will eventually vibrate free.
<snip>
I have changed my mounting method and now have nutplates inside this
"box".
Please; learn from other's mistakes cause you don't have enough time to
make them all yourself!!
I would like to follow up with the idea that
on a TC aircraft, there are NO plain nuts or
combinations of plain nuts and lockwashers used.
Non-locking, threaded fasteners are often supplied
on accessories from the outside world . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Kilovac_EV200_contactor.
jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Mold-Captur
ed_T
erminals.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Flap_Switch.jpg
Every time the system integrator picks up such
devices, there's supposed to be an evaluation of
risk due to "loose hardware". If the risks are
deemed great enough, non-locking fasteners will
be replaced with locking devices -or- doped with
Loc-tite on final assembly.
The tree-visible-threads rule has much more to do
with strength of the assembled fastener (indicates
that the screw is long enough) than with anti-
loosening. The same rule applies to all threaded
fasteners including the locking style nuts and
nutplates.
Where locking threads are not possible or practical,
consider still longer screws with a jamb-nut installed
on top of the structural nut. Further, a thread locker
that can be easily disassembled can go a long way
toward insuring joint integrity. Super-glue works
nice. It's thin and wicks into an already assembled
set of threads.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | ANL current limiter mount |
Chris,
We'll you could buy a different color, but it is what it is. The boom
box crowd already has the bling version, so you won't get better than
that unless you go to SEMA in Las Vegas and get a custom cover. You
could also get the bling version and have the cover air brushed. Perhaps
that's what I'll do.
The other option is to put the ANL box inside the firewall. My car has a
5 pack of them up high behind the passenger's side of the dashboard. My
car has a 110 amp alternator and I've never had to change them for any
reason.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Hukill
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 9:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ANL current limiter mount
Has anyone come up with a mount for ANL current limiters that don't look
like they belong on a tractor? The standard ones in use are either
bulky, ugly and unprotected or the ones the boom box crowd uses are made
of plastic, and don't belong forward of an aircraft firewall, in my
opinion. I have two alternators that I need to protect and could gang
the ANLs together, or maybe it's best to use inline protection as close
to alternator as possible. What has anyone come up with?
Chris Hukill
Message 6
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|
Subject: | Downed EAA Plane |
=0AGlenn,=0A =0APlease explain the purpose of your "ego" comment.=0A =0AJon
=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: longg@pjm.com=0AS
ent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 7:59am=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane=0A=0A--> AeroElectric-L
ist message posted by: <longg@pjm.com>=0A=0ARegardless of your ego, it's al
ways good to read 43.13 part 1 & 2 when=0Abuilding an airplane. It's writte
n at a 9th grade level so little things=0Alike that should not get by. They
make a big deal on exposed threads for=0Astuds, bolts etc. How many of you
know the formula for how deep a stud=0Aneeds to be screwed in? It's so sim
ple, if you can't see 2 threads, get=0Aa longer bolt.=0A=0AIn areas where I
can't frequently inspect potential loose nuts, I always=0Ause Loctite and
if I'm feeling particularly nervous I give the thread=0Aand nut a thin coat
of epoxy. There's lots of other neat stuff in the=0A43.13 like max number
of washers, 3 and never use a jam nut more than=0Aonce - toss it.=0A=0AIt's
your ass in the plane, so do it right.=0A=0AGlenn=0A=0A-----Original Messa
ge-----=0AFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owne
r-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay=0AHyde=0ASent: T
uesday, March 30, 2010 8:01 AM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubj
ect: RE: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane=0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List mes
sage posted by: "Jay Hyde"=0A<jay@horriblehyde.com>=0A=0AAn interesting thi
ng about jamb-nuts; if we are thinking of the same=0Athing=0Ahere. We call
them 'half-nuts'; usually people place the full sized nut=0Aunder the half
or jamb nut- I used to as well. However, the correct way=0Ais=0Ato put the
thin nut first - see =0Ahttp://www.boltscience.com/pages/twonuts.htm=0A=0AJ
ay=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-serve
r@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
Behalf Of=0ARobert L.=0ANuckolls, III=0ASent: 13 March 2010 11:02 PM=0ATo:
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Downed EA
III"=0A<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>=0A=0AJon followed up later with:=0A
=0AHi all,=0A=0AI have confirmed the cause of my power failure last weekend
. Long story=0Ashort - it was builder error. When you install a locknut on
a bolt, you=0AMUST ensure that there is at least a thread or two coming all
the way=0Athru the nut. If not, it will eventually vibrate free.=0A=0A<sni
p>=0A=0AI have changed my mounting method and now have nutplates inside thi
s=0A"box".=0A=0APlease; learn from other's mistakes cause you don't have en
ough time to=0Amake them all yourself!!=0A=0AI would like to follow up with
the idea that=0Aon a TC aircraft, there are NO plain nuts or=0Acombination
s of plain nuts and lockwashers used.=0ANon-locking, threaded fasteners are
often supplied=0Aon accessories from the outside world . . .=0A=0Ahttp://w
ww.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Kilovac_EV200_contactor.=0Ajpg=0A
=0Ahttp://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg=0A=0Ahttp://a
eroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Mold-Captur=0Aed_T=0Ae
rminals.jpg=0A=0Ahttp://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Flap_Switch.jpg
=0A=0AEvery time the system integrator picks up such=0Adevices, there's sup
posed to be an evaluation of=0Arisk due to "loose hardware". If the risks a
re=0Adeemed great enough, non-locking fasteners will=0Abe replaced with loc
king devices -or- doped with=0ALoc-tite on final assembly.=0A=0AThe tree-vi
sible-threads rule has much more to do=0Awith strength of the assembled fas
tener (indicates=0Athat the screw is long enough) than with anti-=0Alooseni
ng. The same rule applies to all threaded=0Afasteners including the locking
style nuts and=0Anutplates.=0A=0AWhere locking threads are not possible or
practical,=0Aconsider still longer screws with a jamb-nut installed=0Aon t
op of the structural nut. Further, a thread locker=0Athat can be easily dis
assembled can go a long way=0Atoward insuring joint integrity. Super-glue w
orks=0Anice. It's thin and wicks into an already assembled=0Aset of threads
.=0A=0ABob . . .=0A
Message 7
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|
I've got the delrin already cut to manufacture a
few dozens of these smaller holders but those
projects are on the back burner for awhile. Today
I've got my laundry room wall opened up to repair
and modify some plumbing to accommodate a gas dryer
and a new water softener installation.
I'm up to my shins in sheet rock debris right
now. After that, I've got some cabinets to build.
The list goes on . . .
Bob, I have often wondered how a retired person ever had the time to work!
:>)
Bill B
Message 8
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Subject: | Downed EAA Plane |
Jon,
Ego may imply I know better than the book, or jeez, I'd have to walk all the way
back to the shop for a longer bolt - I'll put it in on next time. Just like
in flying, the macho attitude (John Kennedy) will get you into as much trouble
as the resignation attitude. Build it and fly it by the book, then we have the
right to complain to someone else.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Finley
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:22 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane
Glenn,
Please explain the purpose of your "ego" comment.
Jon
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: longg@pjm.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 7:59am
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane
Regardless of your ego, it's always good to read 43.13 part 1 & 2 when building
an airplane. It's written at a 9th grade level so little things like that should
not get by. They make a big deal on exposed threads for studs, bolts etc.
How many of you know the formula for how deep a stud needs to be screwed in? It's
so simple, if you can't see 2 threads, get a longer bolt.
In areas where I can't frequently inspect potential loose nuts, I always use Loctite
and if I'm feeling particularly nervous I give the thread and nut a thin
coat of epoxy. There's lots of other neat stuff in the
43.13 like max number of washers, 3 and never use a jam nut more than once - toss
it.
It's your ass in the plane, so do it right.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Hyde
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane
<jay@horriblehyde.com>
An interesting thing about jamb-nuts; if we are thinking of the same thing here. We call them 'half-nuts'; usually people place the full sized nut under the half or jamb nut- I used to as well. However, the correct way is to put the thin nut first - see http://www.boltscience.com/pages/twonuts.htm
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: 13 March 2010 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Jon followed up later with:
Hi all,
I have confirmed the cause of my power failure last weekend. Long story short -
it was builder error. When you install a locknut on a bolt, you MUST ensure that
there is at least a thread or two coming all the way thru the nut. If not,
it will eventually vibrate free.
<snip>
I have changed my mounting method and now have nutplates inside this "box".
Please; learn from other's mistakes cause you don't have enough time to make them
all yourself!!
I would like to follow up with the idea that on a TC aircraft, there are NO plain
nuts or combinations of plain nuts and lockwashers used.
Non-locking, threaded fasteners are often supplied on accessories from the outside
world . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Kilovac_EV200_contactor.
jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Mold-Captur
ed_T
erminals.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Flap_Switch.jpg
Every time the system integrator picks up such devices, there's supposed to be
an evaluation of risk due to "loose hardware". If the risks are deemed great enough,
non-locking fasteners will be replaced with locking devices -or- doped
with Loc-tite on final assembly.
The tree-visible-threads rule has much more to do with strength of the assembled
fastener (indicates that the screw is long enough) than with anti- loosening.
The same rule applies to all threaded fasteners including the locking style
nuts and nutplates.
Where locking threads are not possible or practical, consider still longer screws
with a jamb-nut installed on top of the structural nut. Further, a thread locker
that can be easily disassembled can go a long way toward insuring joint
integrity. Super-glue works nice. It's thin and wicks into an already assembled
set of threads.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
Glenn,
Before you insult old ghosts, maybe you should read the 14 page
(if I recall correctly) NTSB report on John-Johns accident.
His flying endeavors were marked, in my opinion, by always trying
hard to do the right thing. I don't think he was cavalier or ego-driven
at all, just unlucky. He may not have had the aptitude for instrument
flight, but he tried hard, and attended the best IFR flight school in the
country at the time
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001212X19354&ntsbno=NYC99MA178&akey=1
It was his sister-in-law's fault!
I am not now, nor have I ever been a fan of the Kennedy dynasty, tho
I did admire Jack and Bobby!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
You're joking right? His head was bigger than the airplane. That was his
MO. He was all about driving that thing out into the dark on his own. As
you may remember he turned down the offer of the CFI going along with
him.
What he did was let one small mistake build up into a giant one -
especially with family on board. Get-there-itis got him. If he had flown
by the book and did what he learned at the best IFR schools at first
entry into IMC or simply darkness he would have turned right around and
gone back inland.
He is now the butt of every CFI example of what happens to a pilot when
orientation is lost. Sure one can be unlucky, but I don't buy that in
his case.
I suppose we'll never really know.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rampil
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:22 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Downed EAA Plane
Glenn,
Before you insult old ghosts, maybe you should read the 14 page
(if I recall correctly) NTSB report on John-Johns accident.
His flying endeavors were marked, in my opinion, by always trying
hard to do the right thing. I don't think he was cavalier or ego-driven
at all, just unlucky. He may not have had the aptitude for instrument
flight, but he tried hard, and attended the best IFR flight school in
the
country at the time
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001212X19354&ntsbno=NYC99MA178&a
key=1
It was his sister-in-law's fault!
I am not now, nor have I ever been a fan of the Kennedy dynasty, tho
I did admire Jack and Bobby!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292377#292377
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
You must be joking. I've read the report and analysis of the report
several times. Lot's to learn there but I never got enough info to know
that his "head was bigger than the airplanes" or "that was his MO".
He screwed up and I've caught myself with a dismissive smile while
describing the incident to others. I'll try harder to check myself in
the future.
There but for the grace of whoever, goes I. Thinking I'll never be
subject to a simliar set of circumstances takes a pretty big head.
I agree, we'll never know,
Bill Watson
longg@pjm.com wrote:
>
> You're joking right? His head was bigger than the airplane. That was his
> MO. He was all about driving that thing out into the dark on his own. As
> you may remember he turned down the offer of the CFI going along with
> him.
>
> What he did was let one small mistake build up into a giant one -
> especially with family on board. Get-there-itis got him. If he had flown
> by the book and did what he learned at the best IFR schools at first
> entry into IMC or simply darkness he would have turned right around and
> gone back inland.
>
> He is now the butt of every CFI example of what happens to a pilot when
> orientation is lost. Sure one can be unlucky, but I don't buy that in
> his case.
>
> I suppose we'll never really know.
>
> Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> rampil
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:22 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Downed EAA Plane
>
>
> Glenn,
>
> Before you insult old ghosts, maybe you should read the 14 page
> (if I recall correctly) NTSB report on John-Johns accident.
> His flying endeavors were marked, in my opinion, by always trying
> hard to do the right thing. I don't think he was cavalier or ego-driven
> at all, just unlucky. He may not have had the aptitude for instrument
> flight, but he tried hard, and attended the best IFR flight school in
> the
> country at the time
>
> http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001212X19354&ntsbno=NYC99MA178&a
> key=1
>
> It was his sister-in-law's fault!
>
>
> I am not now, nor have I ever been a fan of the Kennedy dynasty, tho
> I did admire Jack and Bobby!
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292377#292377
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
Glen and Ira,
What I've always wondered about with the fatal John-John flight was "why
didn't he turn on the autopilot and let it fly him in IMC to his
destination?" Didn't his Saratoga have autopilot? He must have been
distracted by the two passengers on board, who had a lot to talk about.
I've flown into dark areas before I had my instrument rating, and it
scared the holy hel out of me-enough to fly back into VMC.
I've never been a fan of the Kennedy dynasty either. I have a t-shirt
with a picture of Ted Kennedy and O.J. Simpson on it. Below it, it says
"Vodka and OJ."
Simon Ramirez
Do Not Archive
On 3/30/2010 2:34 PM, longg@pjm.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by:<longg@pjm.com>
>
> You're joking right? His head was bigger than the airplane. That was his
> MO. He was all about driving that thing out into the dark on his own. As
> you may remember he turned down the offer of the CFI going along with
> him.
>
> What he did was let one small mistake build up into a giant one -
> especially with family on board. Get-there-itis got him. If he had flown
> by the book and did what he learned at the best IFR schools at first
> entry into IMC or simply darkness he would have turned right around and
> gone back inland.
>
> He is now the butt of every CFI example of what happens to a pilot when
> orientation is lost. Sure one can be unlucky, but I don't buy that in
> his case.
>
> I suppose we'll never really know.
>
> Glenn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> rampil
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:22 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Downed EAA Plane
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rampil"<ira.rampil@gmail.com>
>
> Glenn,
>
> Before you insult old ghosts, maybe you should read the 14 page
> (if I recall correctly) NTSB report on John-Johns accident.
> His flying endeavors were marked, in my opinion, by always trying
> hard to do the right thing. I don't think he was cavalier or ego-driven
> at all, just unlucky. He may not have had the aptitude for instrument
> flight, but he tried hard, and attended the best IFR flight school in
> the
> country at the time
>
> http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001212X19354&ntsbno=NYC99MA178&a
> key=1
>
> It was his sister-in-law's fault!
>
>
> I am not now, nor have I ever been a fan of the Kennedy dynasty, tho
> I did admire Jack and Bobby!
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292377#292377
>
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
I'm no engineer, & don't even plan to stay in *any* motel at S&F, but it
will take more than a web site to convince me those instructions are
correct. If I'm following their instructions correctly, the preload on
the bolt will only be 25-50% of design (could easily wind up being even
less) & the only spot with 100% of the preload will be the threads
between the nuts.
The deal on that bridge will need to be a lot better to get my
attention. :-)
Charlie
On 3/30/2010 7:01 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jay Hyde"<jay@horriblehyde.com>
>
> An interesting thing about jamb-nuts; if we are thinking of the same thing
> here. We call them 'half-nuts'; usually people place the full sized nut
> under the half or jamb nut- I used to as well. However, the correct way is
> to put the thin nut first - see
> http://www.boltscience.com/pages/twonuts.htm
>
> Jay
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> Sent: 13 March 2010 11:02 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Downed EAA Plane
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> Jon followed up later with:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have confirmed the cause of my power failure last weekend. Long story
> short - it was builder error. When you install a locknut on a bolt, you
> MUST ensure that there is at least a thread or two coming all the way
> thru the nut. If not, it will eventually vibrate free.
>
> <snip>
>
> I have changed my mounting method and now have nutplates inside this "box".
>
> Please; learn from other's mistakes cause you don't have enough time to
> make them all yourself!!
>
> I would like to follow up with the idea that
> on a TC aircraft, there are NO plain nuts or
> combinations of plain nuts and lockwashers used.
> Non-locking, threaded fasteners are often supplied
> on accessories from the outside world . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Kilovac_EV200_contactor.jpg
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Mold-Captured_T
> erminals.jpg
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Flap_Switch.jpg
>
> Every time the system integrator picks up such
> devices, there's supposed to be an evaluation of
> risk due to "loose hardware". If the risks are
> deemed great enough, non-locking fasteners will
> be replaced with locking devices -or- doped with
> Loc-tite on final assembly.
>
> The tree-visible-threads rule has much more to do
> with strength of the assembled fastener (indicates
> that the screw is long enough) than with anti-
> loosening. The same rule applies to all threaded
> fasteners including the locking style nuts and
> nutplates.
>
> Where locking threads are not possible or practical,
> consider still longer screws with a jamb-nut installed
> on top of the structural nut. Further, a thread locker
> that can be easily disassembled can go a long way
> toward insuring joint integrity. Super-glue works
> nice. It's thin and wicks into an already assembled
> set of threads.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
At 03:16 PM 3/30/2010, you wrote:
<ceengland@bellsouth.net>
I'm no engineer, & don't even plan to stay in *any* motel at S&F, but
it will take more than a web site to convince me those instructions
are correct. If I'm following their instructions correctly, the
preload on the bolt will only be 25-50% of design (could easily wind
up being even less) & the only spot with 100% of the preload will be
the threads between the nuts.
I read the article with interest and a sense
of mystery. Slicing and dicing distribution of
total loads between two nuts, one of which
ISN'T INTENDED TO BE STRUCTURAL gives one pause
to ponder.
Consider the host of anti-loosening technologies
including toothed lock washers, winged lock washers
keyed to a shaft and bent up to capture flats of the
installed nut, distorted diameters designed to
multiply friction between nut and bolt, locking
goos and gunks, plastic or fiber inserts on the
nuts or even the bolts, cotter keys through drilled
or castellated nuts, and finally the lowly hunk
of safety wire.
The laws of physics including a study of basic machines,
coefficients of friction and sliding forces tending
to move down an inclined plane will show that no
threaded fastener torqued to design values will rotate
on its mate unless for some reason tension on the
bolt is relaxed or strong but transient forces
vibrations) tend to overcome the breaking coefficient
of friction in the threads is overcome.
None of the cited prophylactics against inadvertent
loosening of a threaded couple take any part
whatsoever in the structural task assigned to
the threaded fasteners. Hence I find it curious
that one takes the time to put up such an explanation
about some seemingly critical function of jam nuts
on the structural integrity of the joint.
I've never seen a jamb nut installed anywhere
but on top of the nut it is intended to restrain.
Further, I'll bet that installation torque values
are a tiny fraction of that assigned to the
structural nut. This is because the friction forces normal
to the structural nut are being opposed by addition
of the jam nut. Depending on how much slop there
is in the threads, total release of tension on the
could result in total loss of "jamb" between the
two nuts.
As a class of anti-rotation device, I think the
jamb nut is the least capable of them all. I think
I'd consider all the alternatives before stacking
a jamb nut on top of a joint with any responsibility
for keeping the airplane and its accessories whole.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
Boy oh boy,
You know, aside from the whole celebrity mirage our country seems to have either
fallen in love with, or to resent, you can't lose sight of the fact these
are just people. So now we have jousted with the ghosts of celebrity in John
Jr's instance and one projected his belief's about him on to him, probably because
of jealousy, plain and simple. I had a best friend in college who actually
went on to have business dealings personally with JFK, Jr. He told me when
I asked that JFK, Jr. was a really nice person as was Caroline. He told me their
mom did a great job raising them after their dad was murdered. So, put your
People Magazine away and realize a pilot, who was a great guy from my insider
info, succumbed to the same errors many pilots have and learn from the facts.
Enough said.
Bob Sultzbach
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 31, 2010, at 1:22, "rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com> wrote:
Glenn,
Before you insult old ghosts, maybe you should read the 14 page
(if I recall correctly) NTSB report on John-Johns accident.
His flying endeavors were marked, in my opinion, by always trying
hard to do the right thing. I don't think he was cavalier or ego-driven
at all, just unlucky. He may not have had the aptitude for instrument
flight, but he tried hard, and attended the best IFR flight school in the
country at the time
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001212X19354&ntsbno=NYC99MA178&akey=1
It was his sister-in-law's fault!
I am not now, nor have I ever been a fan of the Kennedy dynasty, tho
I did admire Jack and Bobby!
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=292377#292377
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
Bob,
You are correct. The application of a jam nut for locking is only
applicable when one cannot wrench on the other end of the bolt. And
never in a critical application. An example that comes to mind is a
big relay where the bolt is molded into the plastic.
Its interesting that some tend to focus on how many threads are
showing instead of "is the thing torqued with a locking feature nut".
Mechanical locking nuts are favored (some call Pinch nuts). The
castellated nut does not have my favor since the holes seldom meet my
needs. Safe enough if torqued properly. The nylon nuts (called
elastic stop nuts) are applicable for non critical places with no
heat. Otherwise loctite in cool environs is also good and comes in
several degrees of anti rotation sticky ness.
Paul
=========
At 02:15 PM 3/30/2010, Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>As a class of anti-rotation device, I think the
> jamb nut is the least capable of them all. I think
> I'd consider all the alternatives before stacking
> a jamb nut on top of a joint with any responsibility
> for keeping the airplane and its accessories whole.
>
> Bob .
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Subject: | Re: testing for inoperative wig wag? |
Check to make sure you have a good ground connection. It happened to me when I
did some wire shortening, new connectors, and forgot I had the ground disconnected.
Ron Burnett
RV-6A Subaru powered, forever finishing
---- Erich_Weaver@urscorp.com wrote:
============
My landing lights no longer wig-wag and I would like to trouble shoot. My
system is per one of the options described on the Aeroelectric Connection
website (?), and uses a single three-position switch for the landing lights
(off-wigwag-on), a bridge rectifier, and the flasher unit, all wired per
instructions. Everything is fine for both the off and on positions, but
nothing comes on or flashes at all in the wigwag position, and my ammeter
indicates no current is flowing. I pulled the three-position switch and
tested it with a multimeter - seems to function fine. That would seem to
leave either the flasher or the bridge rectifier as potential culprits.
Could just buy both and probably be done, but Im sure there must be a way
to trouble shoot these to confirm which has the problem before I order
them. Suggestions?
thanks
Erich
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I'm really not entirely sure what any of this has to do with an electrical
system in an airplane and I've no doubt this is of tremendous to those of
you discussing it, but would you all mind getting a chat room or another
venue where you can whack away at each other without boring the holy crap
out of the rest of us.
Cheers,
Rick Girard
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Downed EAA Plane |
I like the phrase, "aside from the whole celebrity mirage...". Nice.
Bill
Robert Sultzbach wrote:
>
> Boy oh boy,
>
> You know, aside from the whole celebrity mirage our country seems to have either
fallen in love with, or to resent, you can't lose sight of the fact these
are just people. So now we have jousted with the ghosts of celebrity in John
Jr's instance and one projected his belief's about him on to him, probably because
of jealousy, plain and simple. I had a best friend in college who actually
went on to have business dealings personally with JFK, Jr. He told me when
I asked that JFK, Jr. was a really nice person as was Caroline. He told me
their mom did a great job raising them after their dad was murdered. So, put
your People Magazine away and realize a pilot, who was a great guy from my insider
info, succumbed to the same errors many pilots have and learn from the facts.
Enough said.
>
> Bob Sultzbach
>
>
do not archive
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: JFK Jr and all |
right on
In a message dated 3/30/2010 8:50:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
aslsa.rng@gmail.com writes:
I'm really not entirely sure what any of this has to do with an electrical
system in an airplane and I've no doubt this is of tremendous to those of
you discussing it, but would you all mind getting a chat room or another
venue where you can whack away at each other without boring the holy crap out
of the rest of us.
Cheers,
Rick Girard
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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Subject: | Re: JFK Jr and all |
My feelings precisely. The record needed to be set straight. Now, shall we get
back to electro whizzies as Bob N would say.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 31, 2010, at 9:52, RGent1224@aol.com wrote:
right on
In a message dated 3/30/2010 8:50:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time, aslsa.rng@gmail.com
writes:
I'm really not entirely sure what any of this has to do with an electrical system
in an airplane and I've no doubt this is of tremendous to those of you discussing
it, but would you all mind getting a chat room or another venue where you
can whack away at each other without boring the holy crap out of the rest of
us.
Cheers,
Rick Girard
===================================
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===================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
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tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 22
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Delete key. Delete key. Delete key.
Let people say what they want. We don't have to read it all, any more than
we have to watch everything on TV or listen to everything on the radio or
read the entire newspaper. Someone posted a link to the accident report,
which changed my mind about what I thought I knew about JFK Jr's accident.
Listen selectively, please. Don't censor. This thread too will pass.
Terry
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Girard
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:28 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: JFK Jr and all
I'm really not entirely sure what any of this has to do with an electrical
system in an airplane and I've no doubt this is of tremendous to those of
you discussing it, but would you all mind getting a chat room or another
venue where you can whack away at each other without boring the holy crap
out of the rest of us.
Cheers,
Rick Girard
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