AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 04/13/10


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 07:45 AM - Re: Z-12 Twist? (edleg)
     2. 08:14 AM - Re: Z-12 Twist? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 08:39 AM - Re: intermittent transponder mystery solved (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 09:24 AM - Re: Re: Z-12 Twist? ()
     5. 10:35 AM - copper foil groundplane (Mike Welch)
     6. 01:04 PM - Re: copper foil groundplane (Doug Ilg)
     7. 01:04 PM - Re: intermittent transponder mystery solved (Bill Boyd)
     8. 02:48 PM - Re: copper foil groundplane (Mike Welch)
     9. 03:54 PM - schematic for a Challenger II (Doug Ilg)
    10. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Z-12 Twist? (Valin & Allyson Thorn)
    11. 06:24 PM - Re: Z-12 Twist? (Valin & Allyson Thorn)
    12. 09:30 PM - Re: copper foil groundplane (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 09:33 PM - Re: Z-12 Twist? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 07:45:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Z-12 Twist?
    From: "edleg" <ed_legault@yahoo.com>
    Your kidding,... right? A "very small, weight sensitive" airplane with a 550 engine, air conditioning, all electric.... jeeshh [Rolling Eyes] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294070#294070


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:14:04 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Z-12 Twist?
    At 03:39 PM 4/12/2010, you wrote: Bob, After a lot of business travel Im getting back to our airplanes electrical system design. As a reminder, were building a Lancair Legacy a small very weight sensitive airplane (explaining why were not going with dual alt dual batt). We have the engine (IO-550N) and it has a big 100A alternator (all electric air conditioning) and B&Cs little 20A alternator on a vacuum pump pad. Were planning on your Z-12 power architecture but, first Id like to explore a variation. As you know, in your Z-12 with the SB1B voltage regulator, the auxiliary alternator does not come online unless the main alternator is overloaded or off. It would be nice to have the 20A alternator contribute to the electrical power generation during normal operation. Could I use two normal B&C voltage regulators (LR3Cs) with the 20A alternator voltage regulator set at 28V while the voltage regulator for the 100A alternator is set at 26V so that the first 20 Amps of load are handled by the little Alt and the big Alt gets the rest of the load? Would there be any instabilities between the two voltage regulators? You could use two LR3 as you suggest but the SD-20 driven from the vacuum pump pad is not capable of significant output during taxi operations. This is why it's a "standby" alternator as opposed to an "auxiliary" alternator. It's capable of rated performance only in flight. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:39:16 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: intermittent transponder mystery solved
    >I'm attaching pictures that show the adapter tray, the fitting as it >comes apart but isn't supposed to, and how it broke the solder joint >internally. The last one shows the guts of the BNC fitting >completely unscrewed from its mounting flange and the coax just >hanging there. May this never happen to you! :-) If it does, >remember to question everything you're assuming. > >I'm gonna feel bad if the pictures don't upload - never done that >on Matronics list before. Good work! That itty-bitty coax has been problematic when it comes to durability of soldered joints. As you've discovered, the center-conductor is pretty skinny. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:24:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Z-12 Twist?
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    Wow, The Legacy is already CG sensitive with the big motor, then you install the air-conditioning stuff which moves the CG aft and you've stopped the big guys from sweating so they're no longer losing weight which makes the plane more sensitive to gross weight when you fill up the 32.5 gal fuel tanks. Now, you either need more power or you need to buy a 40 amp alternator to save 4 pounds so you can carry a change of clothes for the weekend. To save more weight I'd install the SD-8 and when #1 goes south, shut down the air-conditioning, turn out all the lights and run home on a 1 amp Dynon. When the 100 amp job goes you'll be sweating bullets anyway so the air-conditioning will simply become camping gear at that point. That said, I really do enjoy the Legacy. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of edleg Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:43 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-12 Twist? Your kidding,... right? A "very small, weight sensitive" airplane with a 550 engine, air conditioning, all electric.... jeeshh [Rolling Eyes] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294070#294070


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:35:21 AM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: copper foil groundplane
    Hi guys=2C I've just joined this group and have a couple of questions. I have searc hed the archives=2C but finding my particular answers is tough=2C to say th e least. I'm getting very close to installing the Icom A200 comm antenna in my tub e & fabric airplane (Kolb MkIII). I think I've chosen to go underneath the fuselage=2C between the main gear legs=2C with the 23" steel rod mast poin ting down and rearward. Here's my first question=3B is the center solid wire RG58 antenna lead the one that point down and away? In other words=2C the shielding cable is th e lead that I make the groundplane with=2C right? I also assume they are N OT interchangeable=2C true? I can build a decent dipole antenna using a 1/8" welding rod using Dean S cott's design plans. But=2C the groundplane rod of the dipole would be ins ide the steel frame fuselage=2C which isn't good. I would include the Paws ey stub for the balun. Second question=3B can I build a 1/2" copper tape "X" groundplane and at tach it to the inside of the fabric at the center of the BNC connector. If it's possible to use this style of groundplane with the solid rod antenna =2C can a guy use 6 legs of the copper foil? Any advantage to more than ju st the (4) 23" strips? Thanks for your help! Mike Welch PS. Here is the link to Dean Scott's antenna design I would probably be us ing. http://forums.matronics.com//files/antenna_design_118.pdf _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:04:45 PM PST US
    From: Doug Ilg <doug.ilg@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: copper foil groundplane
    Mike,=0A=0AHave you looked at Miracle Antenna's Air Whip?- http://www.mir acleantenna.com/AirWhip.htm- It's a full dipole antenna that's made compl etely of flexible wire.- It's also end-fed, so you don't need access to t he middle of the antenna for connection.- You can put it anywhere in the fuselage that's not shielded by conductive parts.=0A=0AI'm not flying yet, but mine seems to work very well on the ground.- It fits quite well in th e fiberglass nose cone of my Challenger.- Based on a quick look at a pict ure of a Kolb M3X, I'd guess you could do something similar in your airplan e.- It might save you some of the hassle you're dealing with.=0A=0AFYI. =0A=0A--- --- --- --- -Doug=0A-=0ADoug Ilg=0AGrum man Tiger N74818, College Park-Airport (KCGS), Maryland=0AChallenger II L SS LW (N641LG-reserved)-- kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18)=0A=0A -=0A=0A=0A>=0A>From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>=0A>To: aeroelec tric-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 1:15:25 PM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: copper foil groundplane=0A>=0A>Hi guys,=0A>-=0A>- I 've just joined this group and have a couple of questions.- I have search ed the archives, but finding my particular answers is tough, to say the lea st.=0A>-=0A>- I'm getting very close to installing the Icom A200 comm a ntenna in my tube & fabric airplane (Kolb MkIII).- I think I've chosen to go underneath the fuselage, between the main gear legs, with the 23" steel rod mast pointing down and rearward.--=0A>-=0A>


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:04:46 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: intermittent transponder mystery solved
    From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r@gmail.com>
    Actually, Bob, under 10x loupe examination of the coax and the center terminal of the fitting, there was no visual indication that there had been an actual joint there to fracture - just solder on each, and no impression of the conductor in the little puddle on the coax fitting. But you can bet there is, now! There was no need to re-trim the coax to prepare it for re-soldering - all the wire was still there. -Bill On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > > I'm attaching pictures that show the adapter tray, the fitting as it comes >> apart but isn't supposed to, and how it broke the solder joint internally. >> The last one shows the guts of the BNC fitting completely unscrewed from >> its mounting flange and the coax just hanging there. May this never happen >> to you! :-) If it does, remember to question everything you're assuming. >> >> I'm gonna feel bad if the pictures don't upload - never done that on >> Matronics list before. >> > > Good work! That itty-bitty coax has been problematic > when it comes to durability of soldered joints. > As you've discovered, the center-conductor is > pretty skinny. > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:48:20 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: copper foil groundplane
    Doug=2C No=2C I hadn't heard of this one. It sounds like this could be the perfe ct setup. Do you know how the wire is "oriented"? Can you just make a cir cular loop=2C or ???? I do like the idea of this antenna=2C but since I'm between jobs right no w=2C funds are very scarce. Plus=2C I really wanted to make the antenna fo r my plane=2C just for the experience. Does anyone know of a DIY plan for this type of dipole end-fed com antenn a? What is in that little black box? (hopefully not some of that "special smoke" that leaks out when you touch two wrong wires together!!) If anyone knows of a way to make one these single wire dipole end-fed ant ennas=2C I'd sure appreciate a drawing or two. Thanks again=2C Doug=2C for the tip!! Mike Welch Mike=2C Have you looked at Miracle Antenna's Air Whip? http://www.miracleantenna.c om/AirWhip.htm It's a full dipole antenna that's made completely of flexib le wire. It's also end-fed=2C so you don't need access to the middle of th e antenna for connection. You can put it anywhere in the fuselage that's n ot shielded by conductive parts. I'm not flying yet=2C but mine seems to work very well on the ground. It f its quite well in the fiberglass nose cone of my Challenger. Based on a qu ick look at a picture of a Kolb M3X=2C I'd guess you could do something sim ilar in your airplane. It might save you some of the hassle you're dealing with. FYI. -Doug Doug Ilg Grumman Tiger N74818=2C College Park Airport (KCGS)=2C Maryland Challenger II LSS LW (N641LG reserved) - kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W 18) From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com> Sent: Tue=2C April 13=2C 2010 1:15:25 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: copper foil groundplane Hi guys=2C I've just joined this group and have a couple of questions. I have searc hed the archives=2C but finding my particular answers is tough=2C to say th e least. I'm getting very close to installing the Icom A200 comm antenna in my tub e & fabric airplane (Kolb MkIII). I think I've chosen to go underneath the fuselage=2C between the main gear legs=2C with the 23" steel rod mast poin ting down and rearward. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:54:50 PM PST US
    From: Doug Ilg <doug.ilg@verizon.net>
    Subject: schematic for a Challenger II
    Folks, Attached is my schematic diagram for the power distribution in my Challenger II as a 300 dpi .jpg. I tried to send a .sch file from ExpressSCH, but the list software refused it. Anyway, I started with Z-17, but had to change a few things to accommodate the fuel injection system. This is for a Hirth 3203. A few notes: * Pay no attention to wire sizes. I have not really done that analysis. As a general rule, though, I plan to use 20 AWG for most things, with 4 AWG welding cable for the fat wires. * The Hirth lighting coil is good for about 250W, which is about 21A @ 12V. * The switch logic for the small (1.7Ah) backup battery is pretty much as suggested by MGL (the EFIS' manufacturer). I combined it with the power for the radio and EFIS, to save space. I plan to wire it so down is off, middle is backup power and up is ship's power. In the up position, the EFIS will charge the battery. The middle position is really only to check that the battery is working. * The transponder has a built-in power switch, so it was not ganged with the others. * The EFIS contains low-voltage warning alert. * The main battery will be an Odyssey PC625, 16Ah. * I'll add a filter cap on the VR output, if it becomes necessary. I think that covers it. Now, I'll sit back and watch the fireworks! Thanks for checking it out. -Doug Doug Ilg Grumman Tiger N74818, College Park Airport (KCGS), Maryland Challenger II LSS LW (N641LG reserved) - kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18)


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:11:41 PM PST US
    From: "Valin & Allyson Thorn" <thorn@starflight.aero>
    Subject: Re: Z-12 Twist?
    Ed, Yea, the Lancair Legacy is certainly not a Piper Cub. The weight sensitivity I'm talking about is because the Legacy was designed for a 1500 lb empty weight -- but most people's airplanes come in around 1650 lbs and some even approach 1800 lbs. Also, I live in hot, humid, Houston so have added 40 lbs for an air conditioner. I have made the A/C unit easily removable, though, for winters or when payload is more important than comfort. I'm looking to make up the weight in other areas. Adding a second battery of around 8 AHr adds about 15 lbs more. I took about 17 lbs out with an MT propeller vs. the Hartzell. Valin Your kidding,... right? A "very small, weight sensitive" airplane with a 550 engine, air conditioning, all electric.... jeeshh [Rolling Eyes]


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:24:26 PM PST US
    From: "Valin & Allyson Thorn" <thorn@starflight.aero>
    Subject: Z-12 Twist?
    Okay, so I shouldn't have to worry about an instability with the two controllers as long as there's enough difference in their voltage set points. Good point that the SD-20 only makes rated power at cruise rpms. Does anyone know of an "auxiliary alternator" candidate that will fit on an IO-550's vacuum pump pad that has a 1.5 turn ratio to the crankshaft? Thanks, Valin <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> You could use two LR3 as you suggest but the SD-20 driven from the vacuum pump pad is not capable of significant output during taxi operations. This is why it's a "standby" alternator as opposed to an "auxiliary" alternator. It's capable of rated performance only in flight. Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:30:27 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: copper foil groundplane
    At 01:15 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote: Mike, Have you looked at Miracle Antenna's Air Whip? http://www.miracleantenna.com/AirWhip.htm It's a full dipole antenna that's made completely of flexible wire. It's also end-fed, so you don't need access to the middle of the antenna for connection. You can put it anywhere in the fuselage that's not shielded by conductive parts. I'm not flying yet, but mine seems to work very well on the ground. It fits quite well in the fiberglass nose cone of my Challenger. Based on a quick look at a picture of a Kolb M3X, I'd guess you could do something similar in your airplane. It might save you some of the hassle you're dealing with. The end-fed half-wave antenna has been around for a long time and is a popular topic of discussion and debate in the amateur radio antenna forums. There's a particularly lucid study of these beasties to be found at: http://www.aa5tb.com/efha.html Of course, this article is dealing with the lower HF frequencies of interest to amateurs but the physics scales nicely into the higher VHF range. My sense is that while they can be "tuned" to accommodate effects of installation, they're not your grandpa's plug-n-play buggy whip. It's unlikely that an end-fed half-wave stuck inside the fuselage of a composite aircraft will be optimized out of the box for that particular installation. Having said that, we also know that antenna efficiency in airplanes can be all over the map and still provide satisfactory performance. I have no doubt that the antenna offered has many "satisfied" users. If the builder is not DIY shy, a few dollars in materials can be crafted into an quarter-wave over ground-plane antenna that will certainly perform as well with more predictable results for SWR. Getting to the center of a half-wave dipole isn't hard if you put the center half way up on the side of the fuselage and wrap around the inside surface. Distorting from a straight antenna will have the effect of electrically lengthening the antenna so trimming after installation with some form of SWR instrument would be useful . . . but probably wouldn't produce observable differences in performance I've just joined this group and have a couple of questions. I have searched the archives, but finding my particular answers is tough, to say the least. I'm getting very close to installing the Icom A200 comm antenna in my tube & fabric airplane (Kolb MkIII). I think I've chosen to go underneath the fuselage, between the main gear legs, with the 23" steel rod mast pointing down and rearward. That will probably work as well as anything else. You can ground the feedline shield to the steel-tube structure. Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:33:49 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Z-12 Twist?
    At 08:13 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote: >Okay, so I shouldnt have to worry about an >instability with the two controllers as long as >theres enough difference in their voltage set >points Good point that the SD-20 only makes rated power at cruise rpms. > >Does anyone know of an auxiliary alternator >candidate that will fit on an IO-550s vacuum >pump pad that has a 1.5 turn ratio to the crankshaft? The problem is drive speed. Most alternators with automotive pedigrees have a 4000 rpm for full output with maximum efficiency at about 6000 rpm. George Braly has another AND2000 pad driven alternator and claims 30A max output . . . but that too will be at cruise RPM . . . and I think he gets there by over-exciting the field by several volts. Bob . . .




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