AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 04/27/10


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 09:48 AM - stopping engine (Kenneth Johnson)
     2. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Designing a circuit (Ron Quillin)
     3. 10:22 AM - Re: stopping engine (Bruce Gray)
     4. 10:45 AM - Re: stopping engine (George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ)
     5. 11:00 AM - Re: stopping engine (Bob Borger)
     6. 11:04 AM - Pitot heat switch (woxofswa)
     7. 11:18 AM - Re: stopping engine (Jon Finley)
     8. 11:56 AM - Re: stopping engine (Matt Prather)
     9. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: Surface temperature sensor ()
    10. 06:45 PM - Sil Pad For Schottky Diode (Don)
    11. 06:57 PM - Looking for info on UPS AT GX-50/60/65 (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
    12. 07:40 PM - Question on PS6000/SL-10 Audio Panel (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
    13. 08:18 PM - Re: Pitot heat switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 09:10 PM - Narco COM11/11A/120 tray connector (okiairboss)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 09:48:59 AM PST US
    From: Kenneth Johnson <kjohnsondds@yahoo.com>
    Subject: stopping engine
    Aircraft Electrical Gurus,=0AThis subject has been presented briefly recent ly, but I was looking for the opinion of several.- This may-have an ele ctrical solution of not.- The question is: "What is the best way to stop your aircraft engine?=0A=0AIn the recent past, at this site I have seen rec ommended a switch to the fuel pump.- Turn off the fuel pump and eventuall y the engine stops.- =0A=0AI rent Cessna 172 and the prefered way to stop the engine is to minimize both the throttle and richness knobs by pulling them out.- Technically, what exactly does this do?- Could I place a sim ple ball valve on my fuel rail and phsically close it?- Is this what I do on the Cessna 172?- The Cessna fuel is fed throught a carburetor and my engine is fuel injected.- Does that make a difference?=0A=0AOn the automo bile engine, when we turn off the engine, are we just closing the switch th at provides current to the spark plugs, or is something else involved?- - Is this what should be done for the aircraft engine?=0A=0AThanks for yo ur advice.=0A=0AKen Johnson=0A=0A=0A=0A


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:15:47 AM PST US
    From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Designing a circuit
    At 17:55 4/25/2010, you wrote: >Joe Gores not only suggested using a reed switch to sense my prop >end of travel, he even gave me one to try! Today I went out and >played a bit. I found that 3 winds of 18AWG causes the switch to >close just as the motor starts to strain against the stop. So I >used a dab of Goop to mate the wire loops to the reed switch and >used a piece of nylon tubing as a container. I'm attaching a >picture, but don't remember if those get through on this >list. Doing this was a lot easier than I had imagined. It work >great on the ground, but the weather here in MI was low IFR all day >so no flight testing. > >I've already ordered the parts for the circuit Bob designed, so I'll >be playing with that soon as well. I'll be able to have both >methods operating in parallel. > > Thanks guys! > Dennis Not sure if this is required or not, but a word of caution from one who's been there. I've found, by experience, the glass envelope of reed relays can be fragile and is susceptible to fracture by external forces on the end leads. As we don't know how yours' is to be secured, just use care to insure no side loads can transfer from the crimped terminals to the interface of the lead and the glass. For me, successful designs have always securely mounted the relay on a board or terminal strip, and had all wires exit from strain relieved terminals; preventing any loads to the reed relay itself. Best--- Ron Q.


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:22:10 AM PST US
    From: "Bruce Gray" <bgray@glasair.org>
    Subject: stopping engine
    In an Aviation carb=92ed or injected engine, the shutoff method is the same- turn off the fuel. The reason for this is to prevent a fuel/air mixture being left in a cylinder. If a P lead wire is broken and the propeller is turned, it could fire and injure someone. From your question I assume you=92re installing an auto engine. Auto engines kill the spark. Some might also kill the pressure in the fuel rail. You=92re going to have to blas=E9 your own trail here. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 12:45 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: stopping engine Aircraft Electrical Gurus, This subject has been presented briefly recently, but I was looking for the opinion of several. This may have an electrical solution of not. The question is: "What is the best way to stop your aircraft engine? In the recent past, at this site I have seen recommended a switch to the fuel pump. Turn off the fuel pump and eventually the engine stops. I rent Cessna 172 and the prefered way to stop the engine is to minimize both the throttle and richness knobs by pulling them out. Technically, what exactly does this do? Could I place a simple ball valve on my fuel rail and phsically close it? Is this what I do on the Cessna 172? The Cessna fuel is fed throught a carburetor and my engine is fuel injected. Does that make a difference? On the automobile engine, when we turn off the engine, are we just closing the switch that provides current to the spark plugs, or is something else involved? Is this what should be done for the aircraft engine? Thanks for your advice. Ken Johnson


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:45:47 AM PST US
    Subject: stopping engine
    From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ" <Neal.George@hurlburt.af.mil>
    Depends on the engine and the application. On most certificated systems, pulling the mixture shuts off the fuel flow in the metering device (injection servo or carb) - thus the term Idle Cut-Off (ICO). The fuel servo manufactured by Airflow Performance, popular among the experimental crowd, DOES NOT completely stop fuel flow at the low idle stop. Airflow Performance incorporates a valve to shut off fuel between the servo and the distribution spider. Generally speaking, to shut down an aircraft engine we turn off the fuel supply to starve the engine. The idea is to get the fuel out of the intake system so that a hot cylinder or un-grounded mag won't fire unexpectedly and hurt someone. I've had more than one airplane fire a cylinder when positioning the prop after a run-up for maintenance - with the mags off and keys in my hand. Just turning off the ignition is no guarantee and leaves fuel in the system. Hot aircraft engines will diesel, and the higher the compression, the more likely it is to happen. Neal A&P/IA -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Kenneth Johnson Aircraft Electrical Gurus, This subject has been presented briefly recently, but I was looking for the opinion of several. This may have an electrical solution of not. The question is: "What is the best way to stop your aircraft engine? In the recent past, at this site I have seen recommended a switch to the fuel pump. Turn off the fuel pump and eventually the engine stops. I rent Cessna 172 and the prefered way to stop the engine is to minimize both the throttle and richness knobs by pulling them out. Technically, what exactly does this do? Could I place a simple ball valve on my fuel rail and phsically close it? Is this what I do on the Cessna 172? The Cessna fuel is fed throught a carburetor and my engine is fuel injected. Does that make a difference? On the automobile engine, when we turn off the engine, are we just closing the switch that provides current to the spark plugs, or is something else involved? Is this what should be done for the aircraft engine? Thanks for your advice. Ken Johnson


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:00:00 AM PST US
    From: Bob Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: stopping engine
    Ken, What kind of engine are you using or planning to use? Makes a difference. My Rotax 914 is shut down by shorting the ignition module output to ground preventing spark. This method ensures you know that the ignition is properly grounding. Traditional aircraft engines such as Lycoming and Continental are shut down by setting the throttle to idle and pulling the mixture control to Idle/cutoff. This shuts off the fuel going into the engine from either the carb or F/I system. Makes the engine safe as described by Bruce Gray. Auto engines are shut down by turning off the key which removes the electrical source from the ignition, computers & fuel pump, shutting things down all over the place. There are valid reasons for each method. You should determine what would be best for your engine based on the manufacturers recommendations. If you are doing an automotive conversion, I guess you'd use the automotive method. Bob Borger Europa XS Monowheel, Rotax 914 w/ Intercooler, Airmaster C/S prop. Building a Little Toot Sport Biplane. On Tuesday, April 27, 2010, at 11:45AM, "Kenneth Johnson" <kjohnsondds@yahoo.com> wrote: >


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:04:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Pitot heat switch
    From: "woxofswa" <woxof@aol.com>
    I'm installing a Dynon heated pitot probe in my RV-10. I also have Van's rv-10 wiring kit. In the kit, on some circuits they use a switched circuit breaker and others they use a switch and a separate breaker. Dynon recommends a 15 amp breaker. Would it be better to use a switched breaker or a switch and c/b? Thanks in advance. -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295891#295891


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:18:22 AM PST US
    Subject: stopping engine
    From: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
    =0A=0AHi Ken,=0A =0AI too have seen that discussion. For clarity - all of my comments are in regards to an automotive multi-point EFI engine (not to be confused with any carbureated engine or any mechanical fuel injection sy stem).=0A =0AWith my flying Subaru EJ-22, the ignition switch cuts power to the ECU (Real World Solutions EC2), injectors, and coils. Has worked fine for 300 hours.=0A =0AI believe (but am not 100% positive) that most modern automotive EFI systems all shut down the ECU, coils, and injectors when sw itched off. Talking specifically about automotive EFI engines, I see no va lue in starving the engine for fuel. I am told (but have no statistics or t ests to prove) that this can harm a high pressure EFI fuel pump (running it dry).=0A =0AJon=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Kenneth Johnso n" <kjohnsondds@yahoo.com>=0ASent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:45am=0ATo: ae roelectric-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: stopping engine =0A=0A=0A=0AAircraft Electrical Gurus,=0AThis subject has been presented br iefly recently, but I was looking for the opinion of several. This may hav e an electrical solution of not. The question is: "What is the best way to stop your aircraft engine?=0A =0AIn the recent past, at this site I have s een recommended a switch to the fuel pump. Turn off the fuel pump and even tually the engine stops. =0A =0AI rent Cessna 172 and the prefered way to stop the engine is to minimize both the throttle and richness knobs by pull ing them out. Technically, what exactly does this do? Could I place a sim ple ball valve on my fuel rail and phsically close it? Is this what I do o n the Cessna 172? The Cessna fuel is fed throught a carburetor and my engi ne is fuel injected. Does that make a difference?=0A =0AOn the automobile engine, when we turn off the engine, are we just closing the switch that pr ovides current to the spark plugs, or is something else involved? Is this what should be done for the aircraft engine?=0A =0AThanks for your advice. or?AeroElectric-List] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List_ ========================


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:56:33 AM PST US
    Subject: stopping engine
    From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
    I think it's worthwhile to be precise (reduce ambiguity) in matters such as this. I believe many (most?) light airplane POH's specify that engine shutdown is accomplished by moving the mixture control to idle-cutoff (ICO). Usually this causes the engine to stop running fairly rapidly - in a matter of a couple of seconds. Selecting rich mixture and hitting the starter usually allows the engine to restart very quickly/easily. Certainly many airplanes still have Stromberg carbs (or similar) which don't have a mixture control effective enough to cause "idle-cutoff". I have ridden with pilots of such airplanes who only use the magneto switches to stop the engine. One benefit of this procedure is that you check to see if you have a "hot mag" on each flight. If the engine stops dead, you can be somewhat certain that the p-lead circuit is in working condition. Most (all?) light airplanes also have at least one fuel control valve (selector), which can also be used to stop the flow of fuel to the engine. On the carbureted engines that I have operated, closing this fuel valve does eventually stop the engine, though depending on how low the throttle setting is, it might take a few minutes for the float bowl in the carb to get low enough to cause the engine to lean-out and die. Usually when I pull up to a parking spot, I don't feel like waiting for the carb to empty, so I never do this. If the fuel valve was turned off, on carbureted airplanes with gravity feed fuel, turning on the fuel valve and waiting a few moments will refill the carb float bowl, at which point the engine may be restarted. For an airplane with pump driven fuel, turning on the electric pump will allow restarting much faster/sooner than if only the engine driven pump is used. Turning on the electric pump is often in the engine start procedure. In an airplane that depends on a high pressure electric pump, I'm not sure it makes sense to "turn off the fuel," if that implies closing some kind of fuel valve. It might make more sense to turn off the electric pump(s). My impression of automotive fuel injection is that turning the key off stops power to both the ignition and the fuel pump(s). This leaves burnable mixture in the cylinders and intake manifold. In an airplane, this method of stopping the engine increases the risk of unexpected prop motion. Turning the key to run causes the fuel pump(s) to run until the specified system pressure is reached, at which point the pump(s) turn off. One other thing I have noticed is that some electronic ignition systems may fire the spark plugs one time when the system is energized. This will likely cause the prop to turn if there is a burnable mixture in the cylinders. In fact, my Varieze has such a system. A number of times I have actually had the engine start spontaneously because of this effect - prime with accelerator pump, walk the prop to pull fuel into the cylinders, turn on the ignition, and away it goes. So, magnetos aren't the only things that will fire unexpectedly. In fact, a mag without an impulse couple isn't likely going to spark on its own.. So to get back to the original question, I agree that stopping the fuel delivery in some way is generally a good idea. I think turning off the pumps while leaving the ignition firing is the best bet, as that should dump fuel system pressure, and yield the least burnable mixture in the cylinders. With all that said, everyone working around aircraft should be very careful of the propeller, whatever method is used to stop the engine. Pilots need to be vigilant to not allow anyone to haphazardly move the prop or stand in the prop arc. Regards, Matt- > In an Aviation carbed or injected engine, the shutoff method is the > same- turn off the fuel. The reason for this is to prevent a fuel/air > mixture being left in a cylinder. If a P lead wire is broken and the > propeller is turned, it could fire and injure someone. From your > question I assume youre installing an auto engine. > > Auto engines kill the spark. Some might also kill the pressure in the > fuel rail. Youre going to have to blas your own trail here. > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Kenneth Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 12:45 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: stopping engine > > Aircraft Electrical Gurus, > This subject has been presented briefly recently, but I was looking for > the opinion of several. This may have an electrical solution of not. > The question is: "What is the best way to stop your aircraft engine? > > In the recent past, at this site I have seen recommended a switch to the > fuel pump. Turn off the fuel pump and eventually the engine stops. > > I rent Cessna 172 and the prefered way to stop the engine is to minimize > both the throttle and richness knobs by pulling them out. Technically, > what exactly does this do? Could I place a simple ball valve on my fuel > rail and phsically close it? Is this what I do on the Cessna 172? The > Cessna fuel is fed throught a carburetor and my engine is fuel injected. > Does that make a difference? > > On the automobile engine, when we turn off the engine, are we just > closing the switch that provides current to the spark plugs, or is > something else involved? Is this what should be done for the aircraft > engine? > > Thanks for your advice. > > Ken Johnson > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:07:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Surface temperature sensor
    From: <longg@pjm.com>
    I'll second that - Jim, thanks for the due diligence. I'm not that creative at this point so I found a relatively low cost source for a 4 channel display which supports standard thermocouples and can also be panel mounted. While not their main business, these folks seem keen towards supplying the aircraft market. http://www.omega.com is sort of a go-to joint for thermo-stuff. Of course there are hundreds of other options. http://www.aprsworld.com/thermok/ Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 9:32 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Surface temperature sensor <fran4sew@banyanol.com> Jim McCulley, Good job making an economical and accurate multi-point temperature sensor and indicator. I admire your ingenuity and resourcefulness. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295622#295622


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:45:44 PM PST US
    From: "Don" <dsvs@ca.rr.com>
    Subject: Sil Pad For Schottky Diode
    Bob, I bought a Schottky Diode from you roughly one year ago. I installed it today and was unable to get the device mounted so that there was no conductivity between the load screw and the mounting plate. I did not use excessive force on the screw and the holes are all clean. I think the Sil Pad got damaged in the install. Can I buy another one from you ?


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:57:49 PM PST US
    From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
    Subject: Looking for info on UPS AT GX-50/60/65
    Has anyone with a UPS AT GX-50/60/65 panel mount GPS been able to change the ground speed readout from knots to MPH? I'm trying to finish a ground speed calibration series and it would be easier if the flight instruments and GPS had the same speed readouts. I looked through the installation and operating manuals and didn't find any information on changing KNOTS to MPH. Anyone ever done this? If so how did you do it? Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Flying and finishing touches


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:40:55 PM PST US
    From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
    Subject: Question on PS6000/SL-10 Audio Panel
    My PS engineering 6000 (mfg for UPS AT as the SL-10 MS) intercom has stereo audio inputs and outputs. The other day I was flying and finally plugged in my Sandisk mp3 player to enjoy some music while working my airspeed calibration runs. I had the Sandisk volume set at maximum and had to have the volume on the PS 6000 at 3/4 maximum to hear the music at a low level. Also the music sounded a little distorted (not too surprising given the volume setting on the 6000). I was hoping that there would be a pot on the circuit board that I could adjust to increase the input sensitivity but couldn't find anything in the manual about it. The system is set up for stereo but right now I'm running the mono Sigtronics headset that I purchased during my "Cessna" days, I have the volume on the headset at maximum when doing the above test. The 6000 manual says it's ok to plug in mono headsets so I doubt that the system has been damaged in any way. Anyone have some words of wisdom on running mp3 and other audio input devices with aviation intercoms and audio panels? I assumed the audio inputs needed high level (not speaker level inputs) but maybe the Sandisk just doesn't have enough oomph. In the short term I plan to convert the mono headset to Stereo, long term I plan to purchase an ANR Stereo headset of excellent quality (and unfortunately price). Please advise. Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Flying and finishing touches


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:18:36 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Pitot heat switch
    At 01:02 PM 4/27/2010, you wrote: > >I'm installing a Dynon heated pitot probe in my RV-10. I also have >Van's rv-10 wiring kit. In the kit, on some circuits they use a >switched circuit breaker and others they use a switch and a separate >breaker. Dynon recommends a 15 amp breaker. >Would it be better to use a switched breaker or a switch and c/b? Your choice. I perceive no difference in performance. Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 09:10:37 PM PST US
    Subject: Narco COM11/11A/120 tray connector
    From: "okiairboss" <boss@adaairexpo.com>
    This might not be the right forum but I am looking for qty 2 of the Narco 15 pin white Molex tray connector for the COM11/120 series radios. I am building a ground based air boss radio rig and can't find connectors anywhere. Can find trays but none of them have connectors so far. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295967#295967




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