---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/06/10: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:45 PM - Latest on Alternators, Regulators, Archives, Etc. (Jared Yates) 2. 02:33 PM - Re: Latest on Alternators, Regulators, Archives, Etc. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 03:54 PM - Re: Latest on Alternators, Regulators, Archives, Etc. (Jared Yates) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Latest on Alternators, Regulators, Archives, Etc. From: Jared Yates I've been researching the archives with regard to incorporating ND alternators, and there is a lot of message traffic from the mid 2000s about the yet to be accomplished load dump research. I didn't really see a conclusion to that research. Did I miss it, or is it still underway? It seems that some things have changed over the past few years. It looks like Niagara isn't selling a kit with the ND alternator anymore? Vans is only selling a plane power alternator in their store? Should I take any information from those changes (if they really are changes)? So what is the latest? Is there anything approaching a consensus that would lead me towards a plane power package vs a ND system? (especially, has such a consensus emerged in the past 2 or 3 years, since there obviously wasn't one back then). I get the idea from the connection that Bob doesn't find the internal automotive regulators to be adequate for aviation use. Has anyone heard him comment specifically about the aviation adequacy of the internal regulator that plane power uses, supposedly with crowbar overvoltage protection included? If this is old news and it has already been covered, feel free to tell me and I'll try to find it. The question that I'm researching to answer is "which alternator should I use?" I like the idea of local replacements for the ND setups, and I wouldn't mind learning how to use an external regulator and crowbar OV system on an automotive alternator. I'm also not afraid of a little fabrication, but I also like the sound of the plane power sales pitch when it comes to fan rotation direction and long life brushes, with all of the right brackets and such being a nice bonus. I should say that I'm shopping for a primary alternator in the 40-60A range to incorporate into Z-13/8 on a Lycoming 360. Thanks for your help, Jared ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:39 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Latest on Alternators, Regulators, Archives, Etc. At 03:42 PM 5/6/2010, you wrote: I've been researching the archives with regard to incorporating ND alternators, and there is a lot of message traffic from the mid 2000s about the yet to be accomplished load dump research. I didn't really see a conclusion to that research. Did I miss it, or is it still underway? No, it was something of a red-herring. Any automotive alternator worth the price of it's brand name will withstand it's own load-dump transient. See the rev 12 chapter on alternators in the 'Connection. http://aeroelectric.com/R12A/03_Alternator_12A1.pdf I visited a very large scale re-manufacturing operation a few years ago and witnessed a full load, max rpm, max temperature load-dump demonstration. The folks doing the test said that they routinely subjected their products to 5 such dumps in a row to verify their robustness. It seems that some things have changed over the past few years. It looks like Niagara isn't selling a kit with the ND alternator anymore? Vans is only selling a plane power alternator in their store? Should I take any information from those changes (if they really are changes)? So what is the latest? Is there anything approaching a consensus that would lead me towards a plane power package vs a ND system? (especially, has such a consensus emerged in the past 2 or 3 years, since there obviously wasn't one back then). The Plane Power IS an ND alternator modified for external field supply so that an external, crow-bar ov protection module can be added to the back of the device thus making it conform to the legacy notions of how generators and alternators should behave in airplanes. I get the idea from the connection that Bob doesn't find the internal automotive regulators to be adequate for aviation use. Has anyone heard him comment specifically about the aviation adequacy of the internal regulator that plane power uses, supposedly with crowbar overvoltage protection included? Your perception is incorrect. Again referring to chapter 3of the connection, see the passage starting with the next to last paragraph in second column of page 3-2. The problem I had with recommending UNMODIFIED automotive is that the legacy control and ov protection design goals could not be met. There was never anything wrong with the capability of the built in regulator. Plane Power uses the regulator that comes with the commercial off the shelf alternator and MODIFIES the circuitry to agree with legacy design goals. If this is old news and it has already been covered, feel free to tell me and I'll try to find it. The question that I'm researching to answer is "which alternator should I use?" I like the idea of local replacements for the ND setups, and I wouldn't mind learning how to use an external regulator and crowbar OV system on an automotive alternator. I'm also not afraid of a little fabrication, but I also like the sound of the plane power sales pitch when it comes to fan rotation direction and long life brushes, with all of the right brackets and such being a nice bonus. I should say that I'm shopping for a primary alternator in the 40-60A range to incorporate into Z-13/8 on a Lycoming 360. Buying a ready-to-bolt-on kit with all the brackets has its advantages. The Plane Power offering is a good value. Modifying your own automotive take-off to run an external regulator, ov protection and lv monitor is also an opportunity for good value and better understanding of how it all goes together. The "long life brushes" and "fan direction" have not proven to be an issue in thousands of automotive adaptations to aircraft. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Latest on Alternators, Regulators, Archives, Etc. From: Jared Yates Thanks! Those are great answers and they move my research along nicely. On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 03:42 PM 5/6/2010, you wrote: > I've been researching the archives with regard to incorporating ND > alternators, and there is a lot of message traffic from the mid 2000s about > the yet to be accomplished load dump research. I didn't really see a > conclusion to that research. Did I miss it, or is it still underway? > > No, it was something of a red-herring. Any automotive > alternator worth the price of it's brand name will withstand > it's own load-dump transient. See the rev 12 chapter on > alternators in the 'Connection. > > http://aeroelectric.com/R12A/03_Alternator_12A1.pdf > > I visited a very large scale re-manufacturing operation a > few years ago and witnessed a full load, max rpm, max > temperature load-dump demonstration. The folks doing the > test said that they routinely subjected their products > to 5 such dumps in a row to verify their robustness. > > It seems that some things have changed over the past few years. It looks > like Niagara isn't selling a kit with the ND alternator anymore? Vans is > only selling a plane power alternator in their store? Should I take any > information from those changes (if they really are changes)? > > So what is the latest? Is there anything approaching a consensus that > would lead me towards a plane power package vs a ND system? (especially, has > such a consensus emerged in the past 2 or 3 years, since there obviously > wasn't one back then). > > The Plane Power IS an ND alternator modified for external > field supply so that an external, crow-bar ov protection > module can be added to the back of the device thus making > it conform to the legacy notions of how generators and > alternators should behave in airplanes. > > I get the idea from the connection that Bob doesn't find the internal > automotive regulators to be adequate for aviation use. Has anyone heard him > comment specifically about the aviation adequacy of the internal regulator > that plane power uses, supposedly with crowbar overvoltage protection > included? > > Your perception is incorrect. Again referring to chapter > 3of the connection, see the passage starting with the > next to last paragraph in second column of page 3-2. > > The problem I had with recommending UNMODIFIED automotive > is that the legacy control and ov protection design goals > could not be met. There was never anything wrong with the > capability of the built in regulator. Plane Power uses > the regulator that comes with the commercial off the shelf > alternator and MODIFIES the circuitry to agree with legacy > design goals. > > If this is old news and it has already been covered, feel free to tell me > and I'll try to find it. > > The question that I'm researching to answer is "which alternator should I > use?" I like the idea of local replacements for the ND setups, and I > wouldn't mind learning how to use an external regulator and crowbar OV > system on an automotive alternator. I'm also not afraid of a little > fabrication, but I also like the sound of the plane power sales pitch when > it comes to fan rotation direction and long life brushes, with all of the > right brackets and such being a nice bonus. I should say that I'm shopping > for a primary alternator in the 40-60A range to incorporate into Z-13/8 on a > Lycoming 360. > > Buying a ready-to-bolt-on kit with all the brackets > has its advantages. The Plane Power offering is a > good value. Modifying your own automotive take-off > to run an external regulator, ov protection and > lv monitor is also an opportunity for good value and > better understanding of how it all goes together. > > The "long life brushes" and "fan direction" have > not proven to be an issue in thousands of automotive > adaptations to aircraft. > > Bob . . . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.