AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Wed 05/12/10


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:31 AM - Bussmann fuse blocks (Jef Vervoort)
     2. 04:05 AM - Fw: Re: Re: IVO Prop System Brushes (n801bh@netzero.com)
     3. 05:59 AM - Re: Bussmann fuse blocks (Ken Howell)
     4. 06:54 AM - Bussmann fuse blocks (Chris Stone)
     5. 07:51 AM - Re: IVO Prop System Brushes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 10:04 AM - Ivo motor current limiter design (Mike Welch)
     7. 10:18 AM - Re: Ivo motor current limiter design (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 01:06 PM - Re: Shunt/Hall Sensor placement (jonlaury)
     9. 01:22 PM - Strange radio transmit problem - any suggestions? (Peter Pengilly)
    10. 02:47 PM - Re: Strange radio transmit problem - any suggestions? (David LLoyd)
    11. 05:16 PM - Dynon D10A audio alarm output signal (Mike Welch)
    12. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Shunt/Hall Sensor placement (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 07:06 PM - Re: Re: Re: IVO Prop Motor Current Limiter and Electronic CB (Ken)
    14. 10:13 PM - Re: Dynon D10A audio alarm output signal (Etienne Phillips)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:31:10 AM PST US
    From: "Jef Vervoort" <jef.vervoortw@telenet.be>
    Subject: Bussmann fuse blocks
    Does anyone know if this company is still in business: http://www.mihdirect.biz/ My emails are without reply. Does anyone know of another source for these fuse blocks, to be mounted in the main panel of an RV9 ? Jef Vervoort


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:05:59 AM PST US
    From: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@NetZero.com>
    Subject: Re: IVO Prop System Brushes
    Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com Please note: forwarded message attached From: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IVO Prop System Brushes Your explaination and picture clearly shows the reason for high wear rat es for those brushes..Surface speed is the main culprit and at the diame ters the brushes ride against is a built in evil that cannot be reduced much. I fabricated everything on my experimental and in a earlier life I spen t 25 years in the racing arena, building motors mostly. I am very famili er with non destructive testing, ie, magnaflux, zyglo, dye penetrant, ed dy current,sonic testing for wall thickness, Xray among other methods. I also did extensive destructive testing because that shows the real outc ome of system failures, building expensive motors only to blow them up d oes get expensive but the remains of said motors are invaluable for anal ysis. I can see your thoughts on a lay person dissambling a componant only to destroy any evidence to use to explain that failure.... I would like to think I am capable of exceeding the lay persons ability of that task. I would like to share my thoughts on the first motors failure; My appl ication is unique in that I am transferring ALOT of horsepower through t he Ivo prop and its related componants. I also started with the largest diameter blades Ivo offered, 84". My first 25 hours of test flights were using the Magnum Paddle series blades too and they are substantially bi gger and stiffer then the regular magnum blades. My guess is the increas ed forces needed to twist those blades took out the motor, even though R on at Ivo knew and sold me that set up. Hey,,, we are experimenting here and both Ron and I may have learned something by my initial failure. H e is a real nice guy too. By the lack of others responding of their moto rs failing my gut feeling as of this morning is that my 84" paddle blade s hurt the motor, not a inherent design flaw. I never suggested somethin g sinister, sorry it seemed to come across that way. In closing I truly want to say THANK YOU for sharing your vast knowledge of electrical experiences throughout the years. I for one have gained a ton from it. Tailwinds,,, and do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com Please note: message attached From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: IVO Prop System Brushes ____________________________________________________________ $12/Month Auto Insurance Drivers in your area are paying as low as $12/m. Free Quote instantly. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4bea8ab4c23dd3e77a4st06vuc


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:59:45 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Bussmann fuse blocks
    From: Ken Howell <cfi1513840@gmail.com>
    http://www.steinair.com/fuseblocks.htm On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 5:26 AM, Jef Vervoort <jef.vervoortw@telenet.be>wrote: > Does anyone know if this company is still in business: > http://www.mihdirect.biz/ > > My emails are without reply. > > > Does anyone know of another source for these fuse blocks, to be mounted in > the main panel of an RV9 ? > > > Jef Vervoort > > * > > * > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:54:22 AM PST US
    From: Chris Stone <rv8iator@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Bussmann fuse blocks
    Jef... All of the Bussman fuse products are available from Waytek. Chris Stone RV-8 OR http://order.waytekwire.com/products2/M50/140/350/250/1/ATO/ATC%20Fuse%20Blocks/Blade%20Fuses%20And%20Accessories/Circuit%20Protection/ Does anyone know if this company is still in business: http://www.mihdirect.biz/ My emails are without reply. Does anyone know of another source for these fuse blocks, to be mounted in the main panel of an RV9 ? Jef Vervoort


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:51:28 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: IVO Prop System Brushes
    I can see your thoughts on a lay person dissambling a componant only to destroy any evidence to use to explain that failure.... I would like to think I am capable of exceeding the lay persons ability of that task. Sure, but IVO probably didn't know that. Further, given that they probably knew more about their product's design, development and field history, it seems likely that they are the most qualified to do failure analysis . . . presuming that their grasp on the simple-ideas and critical thinking was up to the task. I've always desired that field failures of my products be returned to me for analysis . . . irrespective of the $time$, talents and resources of individuals who discovered the failure. At least for the FIRST time. As you are no doubt aware, failures arise from a host of stresses impressed upon weaknesses. The best understanding of a product's overall performance comes from a central repository of all data points. This is best kept with the honorable manufacturer. However, second and subsequent failures of the same nature are up for grabs. For a single customer or some small cluster of customers to experience the same failure suggests a high-risk stress/weakness couple that would probably benefit from analysis by many. I wasn't suggesting that you were not qualified or even within your rights as owner of a piece of failed hardware to do with it as you wish. But from the perspective of one who has been intimately attached to dozens of products from conception all the way through development, qualification, manufacturing, evolution of design and decades of field service history, I can empathize with IVO's desire for conducting their own failure investigation. I would like to share my thoughts on the first motors failure; My application is unique in that I am transferring ALOT of horsepower through the Ivo prop and its related componants. I also started with the largest diameter blades Ivo offered, 84". My first 25 hours of test flights were using the Magnum Paddle series blades too and they are substantially bigger and stiffer then the regular magnum blades. My guess is the increased forces needed to twist those blades took out the motor, even though Ron at Ivo knew and sold me that set up. Hey,,, we are experimenting here and both Ron and I may have learned something by my initial failure. He is a real nice guy too. I suspect he is also honorable and that your joint efforts will do much to advance the value of his products. By the lack of others responding of their motors failing my gut feeling as of this morning is that my 84" paddle blades hurt the motor, not a inherent design flaw. I never suggested something sinister, sorry it seemed to come across that way. Not a problem . . . and it wasn't intended to be an accusation . . . only an observation based on my own experiences and intended for 1800 others who read this List. It's all too easy . . . and too common for innocuous assertions to morph in directions that the speaker never intended. In closing I truly want to say THANK YOU for sharing your vast knowledge of electrical experiences throughout the years. I for one have gained a ton from it. Its a two way street. I AM THANKFUL that the List offers me opportunity and a reason to be both curious and constructively critical of the collections of simple-ideas that drive performance and value of our airplanes. I agree with your impressions of the IVO concept for prop-pitch management. It's a novel idea with a VERY low parts count but comes with a new set of challenges. The FORCES involved are, shall we say, significant? First you have to build a blade that will survive and perform it's intended task while still being flexible enough to allow this pitch-adjusting philosophy to be applied. At the same time, you need a mechanism that can not only produce those forces in a controlled fashion but be able to HOLD against those forces while vigorously thrashing the air with an energetic engine. Achieving the combination of features that meets design goals while remaining free of hazardous failure is no simple task. Anything we can do to be helpful in refining those processes seems a useful and valuable thing to do. It may be that a change of gear reduction for the larger propellers would reduce stresses on the motor. His product may also be a candidate for a brushless motor design. Brushless motors can operate with VERY fast design points and get a whole lot more horsepower from a small package. The brushless technology is so prevalent that prices are now a fraction of what they were 20 years ago. Further, the electronics associated with brushless motor drives is easily integrated into sophisticated controllers that would limit both current spikes and servoing pitch for constant speed operation. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:04:59 AM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Ivo motor current limiter design
    Bob=2C group=2C I just ordered the components for the solid state Ivo current limiter tha t Bob drew up for us. Hopefully=2C I'll get it built in a couple of weeks=2C and begin testing. I'm sure every motor/prop is a little bit different=2C so I got a few ext ra .1 and .2 ohm resistors for fine tuning. I hope I'm not too off base and abusing Bob's design goals=2C but I also bought a 3 position rotary switch=2C with the intent of locating it in conj unction of the .1 & .2 ohm resistors. My intension is to adjust the resist ance readings of the three-position switch to show a 2-3 amp limit=2C a 5-6 amp limit=2C and an 8-9 amp limit indication. I hope this isn't total heresy. Any criticism=2C BTW=2C will be duly not ed and appreciated!!! A special "thanks" to Bob for designing this circuit. Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inb ox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:18:51 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Ivo motor current limiter design
    At 11:04 AM 5/12/2010, you wrote: Bob, group, I just ordered the components for the solid state Ivo current limiter that Bob drew up for us. Hopefully, I'll get it built in a couple of weeks, and begin testing. I'm sure every motor/prop is a little bit different, so I got a few extra .1 and .2 ohm resistors for fine tuning. I hope I'm not too off base and abusing Bob's design goals, but I also bought a 3 position rotary switch, with the intent of locating it in conjunction of the .1 & .2 ohm resistors. My intension is to adjust the resistance readings of the three-position switch to show a 2-3 amp limit, a 5-6 amp limit, and an 8-9 amp limit indication. I hope this isn't total heresy. Any criticism, BTW, will be duly noted and appreciated!!! The 'problem' with using wire and moving parts to switch low value resistors (under 1 ohm) is that the compoents and materials used will add 'significant' resistance to the devices being switched. Another thing to consider is the current rating of the switch. A significant portion of the total motor current flows in the switch. Note that the term 'significant' is not quantified and what you propose is probably useful for the experiment. But pending observations during the experiment you'll no doubt want to fine tune the final resistance values and eliminate the switch. My personal favorite "switch" for low resistance experiments is the soldering iron. I'd tack-solder the parallel tuning resistors onto the leads of the permanently installed resistor. Thanks for helping out. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:06:34 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Shunt/Hall Sensor placement
    From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
    nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 02:48 PM 5/11/2010, you wrote: > > If an alternator is working, it will have a > positive indication of output current consisting > of aircraft system loads PLUS anything the battery > is asking for in order to replenish a discharge. > Alternators mask dead batteries . . . but batteries > don't mask anything. > I re-read CH2 on Batteries, but it seems that with the sensor on the contactor-main bus leg, the sensor would only see the current(amps) going through that leg to the main bus. The bus voltage would show up on the voltmeter indicating alternator condition, but I don't see how the HS could detect current going to the battery if it is located on a branch of the system. So I'm happy that I can at least verify that the alternator is working with the sensor inside the cabin, but it seems that if I want to know how hard, I will need another sensor at the alternator, or use a shunt per Z-13 and forget the hall sensor. J Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297528#297528


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:22:35 PM PST US
    From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Strange radio transmit problem - any suggestions?
    Hi, I have a Becker AR4201 radio in my One Design <http://www.glosterairparts.co.uk/OneDesignRebuild8.htm> that I have just started flying (2 hours on the tacho). Initially the radio worked great (after I got the mike jack wiring correct - there's always one bozo moment in any project). Halfway through the 2nd flight the transmit quit - receive was still good. Plugging in another headset on the ground and the transmit worked OK. A couple of days later I pushed the aeroplane out for another flight and no transmit at all. Carrier wave is being transmitted but no modulation (and so side tone in my headset). After trying to figure it out for an hour I put it back together and went flying, still with carrier wave only. After a while I called a local tower (119.0) - loud and clear. Returned to my field (124.1) to the same problem - carrier wave only. What is going on!!! :-( I have not been able to test further - but I need to step through the frequency range and find out which freqs work and which do not. This is a very simple airplane with no intercom, headset connected directly to the radio. Receive is good all the time, on all freqs tried so far. Radio shows the transmit arrow whenever the PTT is pushed, and puts out carrier wave on 124.1. Why is it modulating on some freqs and not others? Headset works in other aircraft (have tried 3 so far with same results). Does anyone have any idea about what is going on? Any suggestions gratefully received. Peter


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:47:29 PM PST US
    From: "David LLoyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Strange radio transmit problem - any suggestions?
    Peter, >From your description...no modulation is happening. Kinda' points to the microphone cartridge or wiring in your headset is randomly malfunctioning. Since you can plug another headset in and all works well, it points to the mike subassembly in your headset. The wiring inside most sets is really tiny stuff. Maybe the wire has broken inside the insulation and makes contact only when your head or mike boom is in a certain position and then, the wire opens in other positions. Check it closely and carefully flex the wiring and see if you can find it. Using an ohm-meter is probably the easiest tool to see if a break is present. If the mike cartridge is bad, the manufacturer has to send you a new one or you send the headset back in with a detailed note describing the "randomness". Of operation. I once had a David Clark set that developed a failed speaker element. Called DC and told them the problem. Guy on line said, "...that's impossible. We've never had the earpiece element fail". I had to do some tall talking to convince him to send me a new one. He did with my promise to send back the old one. He later called and softly apologized. The element had indeed, failed some way inside the unit. David ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 1:17 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strange radio transmit problem - any suggestions? Hi, I have a Becker AR4201 radio in my One Design that I have just started flying (2 hours on the tacho). Initially the radio worked great (after I got the mike jack wiring correct - there's always one bozo moment in any project). Halfway through the 2nd flight the transmit quit - receive was still good. Plugging in another headset on the ground and the transmit worked OK. A couple of days later I pushed the aeroplane out for another flight and no transmit at all. Carrier wave is being transmitted but no modulation (and so side tone in my headset). After trying to figure it out for an hour I put it back together and went flying, still with carrier wave only. After a while I called a local tower (119.0) - loud and clear. Returned to my field (124.1) to the same problem - carrier wave only. What is going on!!! :-( I have not been able to test further - but I need to step through the frequency range and find out which freqs work and which do not. This is a very simple airplane with no intercom, headset connected directly to the radio. Receive is good all the time, on all freqs tried so far. Radio shows the transmit arrow whenever the PTT is pushed, and puts out carrier wave on 124.1. Why is it modulating on some freqs and not others? Headset works in other aircraft (have tried 3 so far with same results). Does anyone have any idea about what is going on? Any suggestions gratefully received. Peter


    Message 11


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    Time: 05:16:46 PM PST US
    From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Dynon D10A audio alarm output signal
    Group=2C While searching Dynon's archives I found the following correspondence fro m a guy that wanted to do exactly the same thing as me......set the audio a lert signal to ALSO activate a line of LEDs. In addition to the audio tone that the D10A emits=2C I want it to also po wer a "555 timer/decade counter---LED strobe circuit" that I built. The circuit is built=2C now I just need to know a good way to send a pow er source to it from th D10A's alarm signal. Evidently=2C according to Dynon support=2C I can choose between a steady tone=2C or an increasing rate intermittant tone=2C increasing in frequency the closer one gets to critical AOA. I believe my decade counter circuit needs a solid 5-15volts=2C so I'd cho ose the steady tone. The following is the archived messages=3B QUESTION: I am interested in connecting the AOA audio on my D10A to a device that wou ld be audible or visible in the cabin of the RV-6. I assume the audio outpu t is a modulated signal. Is there an easy way to convert this output to DC voltage that would drive a beeper/buzzer/warning light/whatever? ___________________________________________________________________________ ___ ANSWER=3B (from Dynon Technical Support) The output of the audio line is 16.8V peak-peak=2C at 1k ohm of impedance =2C and between 200 and 1KHz. It will drive into an audio panel and put noi se in your headset. We generate different noises for different alarms (gene ral alarm=2C AoA=2C autopilot=2C altitude alerter...) If you're looking to put it into a external buzzer or drive an external lig ht=2C we can't be much help=2C as we didn't design it for that nor have we ever attempted it. With a small op-amp and some thought it could be done for sure though. ___________________________________________________________________________ _ My question is=3B with the audio alarm signal(s) that the D10A produces(d escribed by Dynon Tech Support)=2C how can I tap into that signal for my LE D circuit=2C and not screw it up for the intercom "audio in"? Any ideas? Thanks for your help!! Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hot mail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=P ID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:18:25 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Shunt/Hall Sensor placement
    I re-read CH2 on Batteries, but it seems that with the sensor on the contactor-main bus leg, the sensor would only see the current(amps) going through that leg to the main bus. Correct. The bus voltage would show up on the voltmeter indicating alternator condition, but I don't see how the HS could detect current going to the battery if it is located on a branch of the system. How would you use that information if you had it? So I'm happy that I can at least verify that the alternator is working with the sensor inside the cabin, but it seems that if I want to know how hard, I will need another sensor at the alternator, or use a shunt per Z-13 and forget the hall sensor. You KNOW how hard the alternator is working before you ever fly the airplane. I.e., it HAS to be large enough to carry all of system loads PLUS recharge a battery. If your low volts warning light is out, the alternator IS WORKING. If the battery cranked your engine to get you airborne and you're confident of its CAPACITY, then the battery IS WORKING. If in the rare instance that you loose either alternator or battery contactor, the e-bus alternate feed gives you a means by which you get comfortably on the ground . . . preferably at airport of intended destination. Ammeters of any style installed connected to measure any current flow in the aircraft are diagnostic tools where the data offered is best considered on the ground. Ammeters are not particularly useful for making Plan-A/Plan-B decisions in flight. Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:06:18 PM PST US
    From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: re: IVO Prop Motor Current Limiter and Electronic
    CB Is it true that IVO insists that the supplied wiring to the prop not be shortened as it is part of the current limiting to protect the motor gears? Ken > This is why I like the idea of the electronic limiting feature of > Bob's circuit. The reed switch is a huge improvement over guessing > where the prop is set, or using the provided CB as the ultimate > 'stop'. It lets the user know when the limit is reached, but doesn't > prevent abuse (intentional or inadvertent). The electronic CB > prevents the abuse, and can only help improve the life of the gear > train and electric motor. >


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:13:33 PM PST US
    From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Dynon D10A audio alarm output signal
    Hi Mike As an alternative, would it not be easier and more reliable to use the serial stream output to get the AoA? Although this would involve a microprocessor, you would have direct access to the real AoA value at all times, not just when the alarm sounds. If you are looking for a strobe that flashes for all alarms, then your way is probably better, but if it's just for AoA, then I would suggest looking at the serial stream. Thanks Etienne On 13 May 2010, at 2:14 AM, Mike Welch wrote: > Group, > > While searching Dynon's archives I found the following correspondence from a guy that wanted to do exactly the same thing as me......set the audio alert signal to ALSO activate a line of LEDs. > In addition to the audio tone that the D10A emits, I want it to also power a "555 timer/decade counter---LED strobe circuit" that I built. > The circuit is built, now I just need to know a good way to send a power source to it from th D10A's alarm signal. > Evidently, according to Dynon support, I can choose between a steady tone, or an increasing rate intermittant tone, increasing in frequency the closer one gets to critical AOA. > I believe my decade counter circuit needs a solid 5-15volts, so I'd choose the steady tone. > > The following is the archived messages; > > QUESTION: > I am interested in connecting the AOA audio on my D10A to a device that would be audible or visible in the cabin of the RV-6. I assume the audio output is a modulated signal. Is there an easy way to convert this output to DC voltage that would drive a beeper/buzzer/warning light/whatever? > __________________________________________________________________________ ____ > ANSWER; (from Dynon Technical Support) > The output of the audio line is 16.8V peak-peak, at 1k ohm of impedance, and between 200 and 1KHz. It will drive into an audio panel and put noise in your headset. We generate different noises for different alarms (general alarm, AoA, autopilot, altitude alerter...) > > If you're looking to put it into a external buzzer or drive an external light, we can't be much help, as we didn't design it for that nor have we ever attempted it. With a small op-amp and > some thought it could be done for sure though. > __________________________________________________________________________ __ > > > My question is; with the audio alarm signal(s) that the D10A produces(described by Dynon Tech Support), how can I tap into that signal for my LED circuit, and not screw it up for the intercom "audio in"? > > Any ideas? Thanks for your help!! > > Mike Welch > > > > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy. > > > >




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