---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/12/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:56 AM - Re: labeling panel (jonlaury) 2. 11:37 AM - Re: Blown fuse annunciator circuit (Keith Burris) 3. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: labeling panel (Richard E. Tasker) 4. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: labeling panel (Bill Bradburry) 5. 01:31 PM - Resistor too hot? (donjohnston) 6. 01:54 PM - Re: Blown fuse annunciator circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 02:06 PM - Re: Resistor too hot? (RGent1224@aol.com) 8. 02:11 PM - Re: Resistor too hot? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 02:26 PM - Re: Resistor too hot? (Mike Welch) 10. 02:37 PM - Re: Resistor too hot? (donjohnston) 11. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: Resistor too hot? (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 12. 04:24 PM - EMS for sale (Harley) 13. 06:23 PM - Re: Re: labeling panel (Jim Wickert) 14. 06:30 PM - Re: Re: Resistor too hot? (Daniel Hooper) 15. 06:44 PM - LED light strips (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 06:46 PM - LED light strips (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:35 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: labeling panel From: "jonlaury" RE Silkscreening: Earlier I said that I would post my experience with EZScreen Print. After a trial and error learning curve, I wasn't satisfied with the results. The problem was somewhat self-inflicted as I was trying to print a fairly small font and the screen printing process has some limitations in how a finely detailed an image prints. I was trying to do 16 pt and the edges were just not crisp enough for me. Larger block fonts of about 36 points look pretty good. They look nicely painted but not like computer print work. If I was doing large font work, I'd be happy with the look. It has more body, color vibrancy. Kind of like the difference between a beautifully rendered painting and a photo of the same subject. So that said, I'm done with my experiment and if someone else would like to try it, $25 gets the $85 kit of Red, Blue, Black, White paint, squeegees, 1 full sheet and about 3/4 sheet (8.5 x 11) of the artwork ready Hi-Res screen, laser printer transparencies for artwork, and instructions. Next experiment is vinyl decal with solvent based inks that should be compatible with the clear acrylic. Will post results. For the EZSreen Print kit, Email me at jonlaury@impulse.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301004#301004 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:37 AM PST US From: "Keith Burris" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blown fuse annunciator circuit Bob: You wrote: One idea behind the fuse blocks was the low cost and labor for offering lots of protected feeders from a bus . . . eliminating current or future situations where multiple systems have to share a single protected feeder. It's true that circuit breakers offer a visual indication of having tripped . . . but of what value? While airborne, what value is there in knowing that gizmo (1) has stopped working because the power is removed due to overloaded breaker or (2) has stopped working for dozens of other reasons that do not trip the breaker? Keeping in mind that I am not a high time pilot and only thinking of my experience in the cockpit so far -- wouldnt you want to know, now, why something is not working instead of worrying about what else is not working? Seems to me there is a comfort factor there. Regarding weight, I can't imagine a few ounces making much difference but I am ready to stand corrected. If any device becomes non-functional, the likelihood of putting it back in service by replacing a fuse or resetting a breaker is nearly zero. If any failure presents an extra ordinary task for comfortable return to earth, THAT system needs a backup . . . a plan-B. Don't plan to try to put it back in service. I would just know whats wrong and not worry about it while attempting to land. Once you're on the ground, how difficult is it to confirm whether or not the fuse has opened on any one system? It's a 30 second test with your multimeter. How often do you expect to troubleshoot a potentially blown fuse? I can share that in 1000+ hours of time in little airplanes, I've had TWO breaker tripping events. One was the alternator B-lead breaker . . . DESIGNED to nuisance trip. The other was power to the audio distribution amplifier . . . shorted transistors. NO recovery possible by resetting the breaker. How often do you find it necessary to find a popped fuse in your lifetime experience driving cars? I've had a less than a hand-full in 50+ years. Haven't had one in over 20 years. This may just be me and being a low time, scared pilot - If, for whatever reason, I forget, or don't fix it right, or get distracted, or fix it and break something else in the process, whatever, I have a visual reference, on the panel, that the plane is not airworthy before I commit by wheels up. This indication would be available after the pre-flight. The pre-flight, it seems to me, could be a place where an electrical problem could be missed, but again, this is from a guy who puts creases in the middle of the left seat when he flies :-) So what's the return on investment for putting blown fuse indicators on all your present and future fuses? Are all the new wires protected? Is there some other task on your project that would benefit from expenditure of $time$, talent, weight, space and other resources on your airplane? Finally, have you considered the use of fuses with built-in indicators? Following the advice in the Connection, I have decided to use a fuse block with indicating fuses. The problem is, the fuse block will be out of site of the panel. The wires for the panel indicators are not protected, and, indeed, one could carry the idea of protection to the point of ridiculousness. I guess the only benefit I see is just some piece of mind for the new or inexperienced pilot, but that's why I'm on this list. -- Keith ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:20 AM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: labeling panel Check out http://www.pulsarprofx.com/ You do need to find a heat sealer (or buy the one they sell), but the results are as good as they claim. I did my panels with this and it came out great! There is s bit of a learning curve at the start, but the kit provides plenty of material. I did use a clear overcoat for additional durability, but it is not necessary in areas of minimum exposure - near switches, yes; general labeling on the main panel, not really. Dick Tasker jonlaury wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jonlaury" > > RE Silkscreening: > > Earlier I said that I would post my experience with EZScreen Print. > > After a trial and error learning curve, I wasn't satisfied with the results. The problem was somewhat self-inflicted as I was trying to print a fairly small font and the screen printing process has some limitations in how a finely detailed an image prints. I was trying to do 16 pt and the edges were just not crisp enough for me. Larger block fonts of about 36 points look pretty good. They look nicely painted but not like computer print work. If I was doing large font work, I'd be happy with the look. It has more body, color vibrancy. Kind of like the difference between a beautifully rendered painting and a photo of the same subject. > > So that said, I'm done with my experiment and if someone else would like to try it, $25 gets the $85 kit of Red, Blue, Black, White paint, squeegees, 1 full sheet and about 3/4 sheet (8.5 x 11) of the artwork ready Hi-Res screen, laser printer transparencies for artwork, and instructions. > > Next experiment is vinyl decal with solvent based inks that should be compatible with the clear acrylic. Will post results. > > For the EZSreen Print kit, Email me at jonlaury@impulse.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301004#301004 > > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:35 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: labeling panel The best way to label your panel that I have come across in the full sticky back full sheet Avery labels. They are clear #18665 or vellum like clear #53203. The sheets are 8.5 X 11 and are designed for ink jet printers. I made up my labels using Word and then printed the sheets and then cut apart as needed and applied to the panel. I even printed circles to correspond with the switch holes in the panel which helped me to align the labels when I applied to the panel. Then I just cut out the holes with a razor knife and installed the switches. Looks pretty darn good if I do say so myself. You can overspray them with clear lacquer if you feel you need to protect them better. Just keep the Word file and reprint if you want to replace or change. As it turns out, I am changing a lot of stuff and this makes that a snap. With a little planning, you can get the entire panel on 1 or 2 sheets and then cut with a scissors and apply. While you are getting everything to fit and align, you can print on regular paper and hold it over the location on the panel to see if it fits and looks like you want it to. You can get 10 sheets of the clear (18665) for $13. That is enough to label the panel of everybody you know and still have some left for changes! Hard to beat for the price!! Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonlaury Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 12:53 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: labeling panel RE Silkscreening: Earlier I said that I would post my experience with EZScreen Print. After a trial and error learning curve, I wasn't satisfied with the results. The problem was somewhat self-inflicted as I was trying to print a fairly small font and the screen printing process has some limitations in how a finely detailed an image prints. I was trying to do 16 pt and the edges were just not crisp enough for me. Larger block fonts of about 36 points look pretty good. They look nicely painted but not like computer print work. If I was doing large font work, I'd be happy with the look. It has more body, color vibrancy. Kind of like the difference between a beautifully rendered painting and a photo of the same subject. So that said, I'm done with my experiment and if someone else would like to try it, $25 gets the $85 kit of Red, Blue, Black, White paint, squeegees, 1 full sheet and about 3/4 sheet (8.5 x 11) of the artwork ready Hi-Res screen, laser printer transparencies for artwork, and instructions. Next experiment is vinyl decal with solvent based inks that should be compatible with the clear acrylic. Will post results. For the EZSreen Print kit, Email me at jonlaury@impulse.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301004#301004 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:31:12 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Resistor too hot? From: "donjohnston" I'm planning on using some LED strips for courtesy lighting. I found a 19" strip with 30 LEDs that draw 130mA at 12v. Since I'm going to using a 24v system, I'm going to need to drop use a resistor. So using 28v as the supply with a voltage drop of 12v and a current of 130mA gave me a 123 ohm 2 watt resistor. I have access to some 123 ohm, 2 watt, metal film resistors so I tried those. When I set it up on the breadboard the current was reading 100ma but the resistor was almost immediately too hot to touch. Using a point and shoot thermometer (not the most accurate for this) showed 120 degrees within about 1 minute and after 5 minutes it was up to 140 degrees. Now I don't expect these lights will stay on much longer than 5 minutes as they will most likely be used during loading and unloading but that heat doesn't seem right. How hot is too hot for a resistor? Should I bump up to a 5 watt resistor? Did I miscalculate? Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301014#301014 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blown fuse annunciator circuit > >Following the advice in the Connection, I have decided to use a fuse >block with indicating fuses. The problem is, the fuse block will be >out of site of the panel. The wires for the panel indicators are not >protected, and, indeed, one could carry the idea of protection to >the point of ridiculousness. I guess the only benefit I see is just >some piece of mind for the new or inexperienced pilot, but that's >why I'm on this list. Understand. Please know that nobody's trying to drive your design goals either. This is a forum for discovery evaluation and incorporation of simple-ideas into recipes for success. The sum total of this List's membership brings the added benefit of perhaps several centuries of experience in such matters. To the extent that you can use this resource to both refine your ideas and assuage ill-founded fears, so be it. But in the final analysis, it's your airplane. The best way to evaluate your design decisions is to tell us what Plan-B you've crafted for the loss of any truly useful electro-whizzy based on the manner you will be using your airplane. It's called critical design review . . . a practice common to virtually every successful venture. Putting your ideas down in black and white for review by fellow travelers of aviation circles goes a long way toward validation of the design which in turn confirms or discounts your fears. Suggest you check out Chapter 17 in the 'Connection if you've not already done so. But even after your airplane is finished, go test your design goals in a low-risk flight environment. One of my first business cross country trips after getting my ticket was to Brainerd MN. I was partnered with a fellow who worked for Wilcox, an avionics manufacturer in Kansas City. I picked him up at Johnson County Exec Apt and we headed north. He had never flown in a little airplane before. He understood what all that hardware on the panel was for but had never considered its role in the grand-plan for getting us from point A to point B. He expressed some relief in having all those goodies to get us where we were going. I thought I'd yank his chain a bit . . . and shut down he electrical system. He expressed some concern but I assured him that if we just kept it pointed straight north, we could get there just fine without all that "stuff". What he didn't know was that our fluids-maintenance stop (Ft Dodge) and Brainerd were both dead-nuts north of KC and just staying lined up on section roads and watching the clock made the Plan-B pretty easy. 20 years later, my hand-held GPS would have made the same demonstration easier still. The point is that your confidence in doing without major chunks (if not all) of the panel mounted electro-whizzies will be greatly improved if you do some flying in the "J-3 mode". This will sharpen your own thinking processes and flying skills while validating design goals. It's not a "feat of daring do" if you've "been there, done that" a few times on your own terms. When I fly, it's ALWAYS in a rented airplane. Design and maintenance goals of my choosing are never incorporated into the airplane-of-the-day. So I have to walk up to that machine prepared to get where I want to go with NOTHING on the panel working. Instead of building back-ups-to-back-ups into your airplane, why not trade that time, weight, space and expense for a plan and the skills to deal with the worst that can happen? The risks are very low when you get to stack the deck. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:39 PM PST US From: RGent1224@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Resistor too hot? In a message dated 6/12/2010 3:32:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, don@numa.aero writes: I'm planning on using some LED strips for courtesy lighting. I found a 19" strip with 30 LEDs that draw 130mA at 12v. >>>>>>>>>>> Where Tks Dick ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Resistor too hot? At 03:27 PM 6/12/2010, you wrote: > >I'm planning on using some LED strips for courtesy lighting. I found >a 19" strip with 30 LEDs that draw 130mA at 12v. Since I'm going to >using a 24v system, I'm going to need to drop use a resistor. > >So using 28v as the supply with a voltage drop of 12v and a current >of 130mA gave me a 123 ohm 2 watt resistor. I have access to some >123 ohm, 2 watt, metal film resistors so I tried those. > >When I set it up on the breadboard the current was reading 100ma but >the resistor was almost immediately too hot to touch. Using a point >and shoot thermometer (not the most accurate for this) showed 120 >degrees within about 1 minute and after 5 minutes it was up to 140 degrees. > >Now I don't expect these lights will stay on much longer than 5 >minutes as they will most likely be used during loading and >unloading but that heat doesn't seem right. > >How hot is too hot for a resistor? > >Should I bump up to a 5 watt resistor? > >Did I miscalculate? No. The normal "full power" operating temperature for some power resistors is pretty toasty. Typically over 100C (will sizzle spit). For example: Emacs! Here'a de-rating curve for a typical metal film power resistor. Note that it's good for 100% of power rating at 70C ambient. When ambient rises to about 225 degrees C (that's really toasty), you cannot call upon the device to handle ANY power. I.e., At full power in a 70C environment, one can expect the surface temperature to be over 200C. The specifications for your resistor of choice should be available on the 'net . . . but it's unlikely that you've got a problem with respect to the resistor itself. A significant risk for incorporating high power devices into a system may not be for the device itself but for surrounding devices and/or materials that will degrade in performance when subject to local heating. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:48 PM PST US From: Mike Welch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Resistor too hot? > Did I miscalculate? > Don Don=2C From what I see=2C and according to the information you stated=2C no=2C y ou didn't miscalculate. A 12 volt forward voltage does sound high=2C thoug h. Most LEDs have a forward voltage in the 2 volt range. Hmm? From my experience with LEDs=2C why not just give a higher resistor a try ? The only thing a higher resistor will affect is the luminosity of the LED=2C and from my e xperience it takes a lot more resistance to reduce the brightness any signi ficant degree. Why not try 330 ohm resistors=2C or maybe even some 470's? Just a thought.... Mike Welch _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inbox .. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Resistor too hot? From: "donjohnston" > From what I see, and according to the information you stated, no, you didn't miscalculate. A 12 volt forward voltage does sound high, though. Most LEDs have a forward voltage in the 2 volt range. Hmm? Mike, It's not a single LED, it's a strip of 30 LEDs. According the information, they're designed for a 12v supply. Spec's are here: http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2FFLS.htm It's the first one one the list (xFLS-CW30). Sounds like I'm okay. I just need to figure out where to mount the resistor so the heat isn't an issue. -Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301024#301024 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Resistor too hot? From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Don Just a thought, can you find two light strips you can put in series? Do you have a Pep Boys automotive store near you? They sell various length LED light strips, I have one that is bout half the length you want to use. There is a good chance on your light strip you have if it is like picture on website, thereare 3 LEDs in series with a resistor. If you made a cut of wires at the 15 LED mark and put them in series instead of parallel you could get rid of your resistor all together. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:44 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: AeroElectric-List: EMS for sale I have my EMS, a like new I_K Technologies AIM 1, for sale. I won't need the I-K, as the D-180 I bought does everything this does, and also includes an EFIS which this I-K unit only partially does (airspeed and altitude). So...the details: This is what the display looks like when fired up: www.i-ktechnologies.com/Products-aim1.htm and that I-K Technologies web site includes more information on it. Here is what the unit displays: * Airspeed * RPM * MP * Oil Press * Oil Temp * Fuel Flow * Fuel Pressure * EGT (x4) * CHT (x4) * Altitude * Checklist I will include all the paperwork that came with it and the instrument mounting tray. If you want pictures of the unit as I have it, including the data module, let me know and I can email them to you. It is brand new. I have never installed it or even powered up. It consists of two parts, the engine data module (which mounts on or near the firewall) and the display module that mounts on the panel. The entire system weighs less than 2 pounds. The only wiring to the display from the data module is a single data cable, so the majority of the sensor and probe wiring remains short, and near the engine. Ralph Krongold, the owner of I-K Technologies, told me this morning that he'd be glad to check it over for anyone who buys it from me, but expects that there will be no problems with it and that a checkup will most likely be unnecessary. Just as when it is purchased from I-K, the unit does not include the probes, sensors and wires. They are normally purchased separately, or it can use the ones that you currently have installed on your engine. If you don't have them, you can buy them from I-K, Stein (who has a complete kit of the ones needed for the AIM 1 www.steinair.com/enginemonitors.htm ), Aircraft Spruce, or your favorite aircraft supply stores. Having said that, this unit was for the four cylinder, Lycoming O-235 that I am installing. It can be used on any 4 cylinder, air cooled engine, and, as I mentioned, the dealers who handle it (like Stein and Aircraft Spruce) offer the probes separately if you don't already have your own. It uses standard j and k thermocouples, flow and pressure sensors. The current price of this unit is $1499 (without the probes and sensors). You can have it for $1200. I will include everything that I received with the display and data module unit including the data cable, the sensor cable, the manual, the test data and the power plug and pins. It was for my Long EZ, so the data cable should be long enough for just about any aircraft (except an A380, maybe ) United States shipping will be for free. Please contact me if interested... Harley Dixon harley@agelesswings.com Long EZ N28EZ Canandaigua, NY ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:21 PM PST US From: "Jim Wickert" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: labeling panel Jon, Jim Wickert here. Did you use the HR High Res screen the HiRes ink? Or was this the standard materials. Thanks. Jim Wickert Tel 920-467-0219 Cell 920-912-1014 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jonlaury Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 11:53 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: labeling panel RE Silkscreening: Earlier I said that I would post my experience with EZScreen Print. After a trial and error learning curve, I wasn't satisfied with the results. The problem was somewhat self-inflicted as I was trying to print a fairly small font and the screen printing process has some limitations in how a finely detailed an image prints. I was trying to do 16 pt and the edges were just not crisp enough for me. Larger block fonts of about 36 points look pretty good. They look nicely painted but not like computer print work. If I was doing large font work, I'd be happy with the look. It has more body, color vibrancy. Kind of like the difference between a beautifully rendered painting and a photo of the same subject. So that said, I'm done with my experiment and if someone else would like to try it, $25 gets the $85 kit of Red, Blue, Black, White paint, squeegees, 1 full sheet and about 3/4 sheet (8.5 x 11) of the artwork ready Hi-Res screen, laser printer transparencies for artwork, and instructions. Next experiment is vinyl decal with solvent based inks that should be compatible with the clear acrylic. Will post results. For the EZSreen Print kit, Email me at jonlaury@impulse.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301004#301004 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:06 PM PST US From: Daniel Hooper Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Resistor too hot? Or, use a resistor like this: http://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ohmite/TBH25P150RJE/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvhlCB8 CTbT5P3ZZcE9WVSjJn%252bo%252b5MXx0c%3d Screw that down to some convenient large piece of metal and it will stay much cooler. Just be sure to heat-shrink the leads so they don't short to the heat sink surface. The tab is electrically insulated, so there's no need for a mica sheet underneath it. --Daniel On Jun 12, 2010, at 6:04 PM, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > Hi Don > > Just a thought, can you find two light strips you can put in series? Do you have a Pep Boys automotive store near you? They sell various length LED light strips, I have one that is bout half the length you want to use. There is a good chance on your light strip you have if it is like picture on website, there are 3 LEDs in series with a resistor. If you made a cut of wires at the 15 LED mark and put them in series instead of parallel you could get rid of your resistor all together. > Ron Parigoris > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED light strips >Sounds like I'm okay. I just need to figure out where to mount the >resistor so the heat isn't an issue. How do you plan to use this product? I sounds like a LOT of light output capability. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED light strips >Sounds like I'm okay. I just need to figure out where to mount the >resistor so the heat isn't an issue. How do you plan to use this product? I sounds like a LOT of light output capability. OOPS . . . scratch the above . . . I picked it up in your earlier post. I was just thinking that these would be about 100 times more light than what was needed for cockpit night lighting. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.