---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/23/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:03 AM - Re: ov module (bob noffs) 2. 03:15 AM - Re: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom (JOHN TIPTON) 3. 05:45 AM - Re: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 05:47 AM - Re: ov module (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:11 AM - Re: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom (Iberplanes IGD - Alberto Martin) 6. 07:21 AM - Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size (jonlaury) 7. 09:36 AM - Re: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom (Matt Prather) 8. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 10:46 AM - Re: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom (Iberplanes IGD - Alberto Martin) 10. 12:53 PM - Audio system design (Roger) 11. 01:05 PM - Re: Audio system design (Ralph E. Capen) 12. 01:07 PM - Voltmeter Needs Independent Power Supply (Dennis Johnson) 13. 01:11 PM - Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size (jonlaury) 14. 02:44 PM - Re: Voltmeter Needs Independent Power Supply (Richard Tasker) 15. 07:26 PM - Re: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size (Allen Fulmer) 16. 08:44 PM - Re: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size (BobsV35B@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ov module From: bob noffs bob, ok, i wlll have to check out the wiring. it has been several years since i wired. i have to do two 12 hrs shifts today and tomorrow. i will get back on friday. it is on a jab 3300 and i pretty much followed a z drawing. bob noffs On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> > > At 06:40 PM 6/22/2010, you wrote: > >> yes bob, it is the breaker that the ov mod opens. thanks for the replys, >> bob noffs >> > > > I'm not sure what this breaker is. There are no AeroElectric > drawings that show a breaker greater than 5A associated with > a crowbar ov protection system. > > Are you using a Z-figure? What kind of alternator. > Where is the breaker located in the system? > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:15:39 AM PST US From: "JOHN TIPTON" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom Hi Guys Most if not all radios have built in intercoms, so why do we need a seperate intercom Best regards: John (RV9a wings - long way to go before fitting radios) ----- Original Message ----- From: "gordon" Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 6:29 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom > > Several weeks ago you gave me some good info in that the ICOM A-210 and > the Flight Com 403 are compatable. > I have it installed and with much adjusting ect everything except volume > adjustment are fine. > I have called 2 times to Icom Tec and get no satisfaction. The way it > is, You can only have a volumn control is > to go into Menu..The first item that comes up is ?oHP LEVEL? which is > headphone level. This is the same as (Vol). > > These are the 3 options I have. > > AF gain: The output level is the same as (Vol). > Off (0) While muting the headphone. > 01-80 Setting audio level from 1 to 80. > > So according to ICOM Tec support?"they recommend (and I am already using > this method) is to put he Vol as high > as needed and then control it with the volume controls on my Lightspeed > headsets. > If I try to use the normal Volume control like I normally would, just > reach over and adjust ., Nothing happens > The scale shows up on the front, you know it goes up and down as you turn > the knob but nothing happens. > > So according to Icom that seems to be the only way it can be done unless I > put in audio panel. > I don?Tt have the room and don?Tt want to do it. > > Have flown with it this way and the com works fine. Doesn?Tt pick up the > loud noise. And am able to communicate fine. > The transceiver works fine also. > Its just the Idea that if you want more volume if I don?Tt have enough > thru the headset controls, I have to go into menu and > dial in more. > Does any one have any suggestions or has anyone had this problem . > Thanks Gordon > [/list] > > -------- > tailwind10 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302171#302171 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom At 05:14 AM 6/23/2010, you wrote: > > >Hi Guys > >Most if not all radios have built in intercoms, so why do we need a seperate >intercom > >Best regards: John (RV9a wings - long way to go before fitting radios)\ Two possible reasons I can think of . . . The only built-in intercoms I've had personal experience with were the "hot mic" variety that required a user operated push-to-talk button and did not feature an effective voice/ noise discriminating, voice activated switching system. Further, built in intercoms are less likely to have features for adding entertainment such as a stereo music input. Not all "aircraft audio systems" are the same. If you have some desires that go beyond those which might have satisfied your grandpa . . . its a good idea to dig through the installation/operating manuals for the radio/intercom pair you're considering. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ov module At 05:01 AM 6/23/2010, you wrote: >bob, > ok, > i wlll have to check out the wiring. it has been several years > since i wired. i have to do two 12 hrs shifts today and tomorrow. i > will get back on friday. it is on a jab 3300 and i pretty much > followed a z drawing. > bob noffs Understand. The only Jab drawing I've published is http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z20L.pdf which shows suggested labels and sizes for the components you've asked about. But don't hurry, you're going to need some SLEEP after taking care of the tasks for today . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom From: Iberplanes IGD - Alberto Martin Hi guys, The Icom brochure says it has a built in intercom and VOX capable, as mentioned before, why should one install an intercom then? That=B4s the radio I=B4ve bought but have not installed yet, so some clarification would be fantastic. thanks ! Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Started Engine: Jabiru 3300 Un ingles a Tom Lucero en la guerra de Malvinas: "=A1Piloto argentino mejor aqu=ED con nosotros en camilla. Muy peligroso arriba, en su avi=F3n!=97". Un pasaje del libro "Dios y Los Halcones" del Com. Pablo M. Carballo ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:37 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size From: "jonlaury" [/quote] Your doing just fine for a design goal that has weight very high up on the list of priorities . . . Having offered that, total weight savings is pretty small. .... Bob . . .[/quote] Of course I did my analysis [i]after[/i] I bought the wire and terminals, so your recommendation is music to my ears :) And I can't argue about the difference in weight as all my wire runs are pretty short. But somewhere a long time ago when I started this project, I read (and was never able to shake it) the maxim re building planes: " During the building journey, if one takes care to eliminate extra ounces, the extra pounds will take care of themselves at completion" J Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302215#302215 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:01 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom From: Matt Prather In your Zodiac, the Icom's included intercom probably could suffice. However, it appears that intercom doesn't support more than two seats (pilot + copilot). Some airplanes have a few more seats than that.. ;) In those cases, an intercom that supports more seats (headphones/mics) might be worth having. Regards, Matt- On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Iberplanes IGD - Alberto Martin wrote: > Hi guys, > > The Icom brochure says it has a built in intercom and VOX capable, as > mentioned before, why should one install an intercom then? > > Thats the radio Ive bought but have not installed yet, so some > clarification would be fantastic. > > thanks ! > > Alberto Martin > www.iberplanes.es > Igualada - Barcelona - Spain > > ---------------------------------------------- > Zodiac 601 XL Builder > Serial: 6-7011 > > Tail Kit: Finished > Wings: Not Started > Fuselage: Started > Engine: Jabiru 3300 > > > Un ingles a Tom Lucero en la guerra de Malvinas: "Piloto argentino mejor > aqu con nosotros en camilla. Muy peligroso arriba, en su avin!". > > Un pasaje del libro "Dios y Los Halcones" del Com. Pablo M. Carballo > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size >But somewhere a long time ago when I started this project, I read >(and was never able to shake it) the maxim re building planes: " >During the building journey, if one takes care to eliminate extra >ounces, the extra pounds will take care of themselves at completion" yeah . . . sort of. When Burt Rutan did the Voyager project, he had an airplane that grossed about 12000 pounds at takeoff. It took about 5 pounds of fuel to carry 1 pound of airplane around the world. Needless to say, paying attention to empty weight was mission critical. I think most of us fly for fun. We pile 'stuff' into the airplane including our bods that varies from mission to mission . . . and few of us figure fuel endurance down to the last gallon. Further, the average use of a light aircraft in the US is 50 or so hours per year. If it were a revenue generating hauler that flew 50 hours a month, then one MIGHT be able to make a case for fine-tuning the ship's empty weight. My feeling is that time would be better spent on the craftsmanship of the assembly than on bean-counting (or ounce-counting). Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ICOM A 210 matched with a Flightcom 403 intercom From: Iberplanes IGD - Alberto Martin Thanks Matt !!! 2010/6/23 Matt Prather > mapratherid@gmail.com> > > In your Zodiac, the Icom's included intercom probably could suffice. > However, it appears that intercom doesn't support more than two seats > (pilot + copilot). Some airplanes have a few more seats than that.. > ;) In those cases, an intercom that supports more seats > (headphones/mics) might be worth having. > > > Regards, > > Matt- > > On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Iberplanes IGD - Alberto Martin > wrote: > > Hi guys, > > > > The Icom brochure says it has a built in intercom and VOX capable, as > > mentioned before, why should one install an intercom then? > > > > That=B4s the radio I=B4ve bought but have not installed yet, so some > > clarification would be fantastic. > > > > thanks ! > > > > Alberto Martin > > www.iberplanes.es > > Igualada - Barcelona - Spain > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Zodiac 601 XL Builder > > Serial: 6-7011 > > > > Tail Kit: Finished > > Wings: Not Started > > Fuselage: Started > > Engine: Jabiru 3300 > > > > > > Un ingles a Tom Lucero en la guerra de Malvinas: "=A1Piloto argentino m ejor > > aqu=ED con nosotros en camilla. Muy peligroso arriba, en su avi=F3n!=97 ". > > > > Un pasaje del libro "Dios y Los Halcones" del Com. Pablo M. Carballo > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Started Engine: Jabiru 3300 Un ingles a Tom Lucero en la guerra de Malvinas: "=A1Piloto argentino mejor aqu=ED con nosotros en camilla. Muy peligroso arriba, en su avi=F3n!=97". Un pasaje del libro "Dios y Los Halcones" del Com. Pablo M. Carballo ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:30 PM PST US From: "Roger" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Audio system design I have been thinking about the audio system for my 2 place IFR airplane. Have looked at the audio info presented in Bob's book and am not sure if the systems depicted will satisfy my needs/wants. The aircraft will have 2 NAVs, 2 COMs, Glass panel (GRT EFIS), and GPS, along with a music channel input. 1. I would like some elaboration on Bob's system, as to advantages and disadvantages. 2. Does anyone have any experience with the RST unit? Comments, suggestions, helpful hints requested. Roger ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:22 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Audio system design If your music is planned to be in stereo - that might impact your audio panel selection. -----Original Message----- >From: Roger >Sent: Jun 23, 2010 3:51 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Audio system design > >I have been thinking about the audio system for my 2 place IFR airplane. Have looked at the audio info presented in Bob's book and am not sure if the systems depicted will satisfy my needs/wants. The aircraft will have 2 NAVs, 2 COMs, Glass panel (GRT EFIS), and GPS, along with a music channel input. > >1. I would like some elaboration on Bob's system, as to advantages and disadvantages. > >2. Does anyone have any experience with the RST unit? > >Comments, suggestions, helpful hints requested. > >Roger ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:18 PM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltmeter Needs Independent Power Supply Greetings, I'm adding a digital voltmeter to a 12 volt system. It's not an airplane, but I think my question also applies to airplanes. The system is a single cylinder engine with a 12 volt starter, alternator, and battery. I don't really need a voltmeter on it, but I wanted to play with a cheap digital voltmeter for the educational value and this seemed like as good an application as any. I bought this voltmeter: Model XL3-20V, about two-thirds of the way down the following page: http://www.futurlec.com/Panel_Meters.shtml The instructions that came with the meter say, "Power Source: DC 12V, must have separate power supply." It has four terminals. One pair is for 12 volts DC positive and negative power supply and the other pair of positive and negative for the DC input signal. I wanted to connect both pairs to the 12 volt starting battery that I want to measure. But the note that the meter requires a separate power supply sounds like that won't work. I have a general question: Why would a digital voltmeter need a separate power supply? I have a specific question: Is there a simple workaround, like putting resistors or diodes in the power supply wires? I know that I can always go with a relay and flashlight batteries, but I'm hoping for a more elegant solution. Thanks, Dennis ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:32 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size From: "jonlaury" nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > > > > > ... then one MIGHT > be able to make a case for fine-tuning the ship's > empty weight. > > My feeling is that time would be better spent > on the craftsmanship of the assembly than on > bean-counting (or ounce-counting). > > > Bob . . . My thrust in this project has been to try something a little different to get a better result. Glasairs, with a high wing loading, are pretty weight sensitive and, to boot, I stuck a bigger engine than normal in mine. I figured with a composite prop(-30#) and losing the nose gear(-30#), I could compensate for a little more engine weight (and hp). Knowing that I'd handicapped myself with the engine, I've tried to save weight everywhere I can. That drove the decision for an aux alternator over an aux battery for a 5# wt. saving. But in the end, I want a daily flyer (or weekly) that is finely crafted, that I don't have to tinker with constantly, is a blast to fly and that my wife finds comfortable (well, me too). So it's easy to go with a few extra ounces of copper if it means that my starter has an easy life, my ground power circuit will happily start my engine after I've left the master on, and generally that the electrons in my system find the race track empty and cool all the time. Through the AEL and your thoughtful advice, I think I am well on my way to accomplishing my goal. John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302268#302268 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:50 PM PST US From: Richard Tasker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltmeter Needs Independent Power Supply Some of these meters are designed such that they will not work properly unless the supply is isolated from the voltage being read. I would guess that they can get away with a cheaper solution that way. It is probably that the grounds cannot be connected but I don't know exactly what the circuits are. Unfortunately, there is no work-around - simple or otherwise. The power source MUST be totally isolated from the voltage to be measured. Either use batteries or use an isolated DC-DC converter. If it is possible, I would try to exchange it for one where the power supply does not have to be isolated, such as the PM1029B or the LCD versions CX101B or PM128E. Of course, all of these require a 5V supply so you have that to deal with, but at least it can be derived from the 12V you have with a simple regulator (LM7805) and a couple of capacitors. If you really want to eliminate all the hassle (but pay more) try the Lascar Electronics EMV 1200-40 at http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=5720050#tab=Specs This is a self-powered meter. Just connect it to a voltage between 4 and 40 volts and it reads the voltage - no power supply required. The current consumption spec says 3 mA, but I have two of them for my two batteries and the actual consumption is less than 1mA. Some of the other meters that Lascar make can run from the 12V you have available and read whatever voltage you want to (non-isolated supply). Dick Tasker Dennis Johnson wrote: > Greetings, > I'm adding a digital voltmeter to a 12 volt system. It's not an > airplane, but I think my question also applies to airplanes. The > system is a single cylinder engine with a 12 volt starter, > alternator, and battery. I don't really need a voltmeter on it, but I > wanted to play with a cheap digital voltmeter for the educational > value and this seemed like as good an application as any. > I bought this voltmeter: Model XL3-20V, about two-thirds of the way > down the following page: > http://www.futurlec.com/Panel_Meters.shtml > The instructions that came with the meter say, "Power Source: DC 12V, > must have separate power supply." > It has four terminals. One pair is for 12 volts DC positive and > negative power supply and the other pair of positive and negative for > the DC input signal. I wanted to connect both pairs to the 12 volt > starting battery that I want to measure. But the note that the meter > requires a separate power supply sounds like that won't work. > I have a general question: Why would a digital voltmeter need a > separate power supply? > I have a specific question: Is there a simple workaround, like > putting resistors or diodes in the power supply wires? I know that I > can always go with a relay and flashlight batteries, but I'm hoping > for a more elegant solution. > Thanks, > Dennis > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:06 PM PST US From: "Allen Fulmer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size I like that Bob. I am going to quit feeling guilty for adding all those gadgets that I think I will enjoy. Those seat heaters, O2, etc., will feel just right at 16,000 feet as I fly over the Rockies on my way around the Western US. Allen Fulmer RV7 Turbo Normalized Subaru 3 screen GRT EFIS, autopilot, etc. Alexander City, AL -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:42 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size >But somewhere a long time ago when I started this project, I read >(and was never able to shake it) the maxim re building planes: " >During the building journey, if one takes care to eliminate extra >ounces, the extra pounds will take care of themselves at completion" yeah . . . sort of. When Burt Rutan did the Voyager project, he had an airplane that grossed about 12000 pounds at takeoff. It took about 5 pounds of fuel to carry 1 pound of airplane around the world. Needless to say, paying attention to empty weight was mission critical. I think most of us fly for fun. We pile 'stuff' into the airplane including our bods that varies from mission to mission . . . and few of us figure fuel endurance down to the last gallon. Further, the average use of a light aircraft in the US is 50 or so hours per year. If it were a revenue generating hauler that flew 50 hours a month, then one MIGHT be able to make a case for fine-tuning the ship's empty weight. My feeling is that time would be better spent on the craftsmanship of the assembly than on bean-counting (or ounce-counting). Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:56 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size Good Evening Allen and 'Lectric Bob, I tend to agree with the thought that we should always remain weight conscious. If you want seat heaters, put them in, but make sure they are efficient and light weight. An ounce here and an ounce there may not seem like much, but each ounce should be serving a purpose. No doubt that cost is always going to be a factor. I like the phrase quoted. ---- "During the building journey, if one takes care to eliminate extra ounces, the extra pounds will take care of themselves at completion" I am an avowed Bonanza nut. The main reason the early Bonanza did as well as it did was due to the "save an ounce everywhere you can" spirit with which the straight 35 was built. It way out performed everything else of the era because it was a couple of hundred pounds lighter. The effort does pay off. Enjoy all the comforts you want, but don't waste any weight on something you don't need. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 6/23/2010 9:27:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, afulmer@charter.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Allen Fulmer" I like that Bob. I am going to quit feeling guilty for adding all those gadgets that I think I will enjoy. Those seat heaters, O2, etc., will feel just right at 16,000 feet as I fly over the Rockies on my way around the Western US. Allen Fulmer RV7 Turbo Normalized Subaru 3 screen GRT EFIS, autopilot, etc. Alexander City, AL -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 12:42 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13 Alternator & Starter Wire Size --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >But somewhere a long time ago when I started this project, I read >(and was never able to shake it) the maxim re building planes: " >During the building journey, if one takes care to eliminate extra >ounces, the extra pounds will take care of themselves at completion" yeah . . . sort of. When Burt Rutan did the Voyager project, he had an airplane that grossed about 12000 pounds at takeoff. It took about 5 pounds of fuel to carry 1 pound of airplane around the world. Needless to say, paying attention to empty weight was mission critical. I think most of us fly for fun. We pile 'stuff' into the airplane including our bods that varies from mission to mission . . . and few of us figure fuel endurance down to the last gallon. Further, the average use of a light aircraft in the US is 50 or so hours per year. If it were a revenue generating hauler that flew 50 hours a month, then one MIGHT be able to make a case for fine-tuning the ship's empty weight. My feeling is that time would be better spent on the craftsmanship of the assembly than on bean-counting (or ounce-counting). 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